Groundfighting in TCC?

[red_fists]

Round 3.

Yes, we had another Thread on this recently.

But I think that the classics hold the answer as to why there is little or no rolls/falls taught in the System.

Here it is directly from the classics:

A feather cannot be placed,
and a fly cannot alight
on any part of the body.

Coming from:
THE TREATISE ON T'AI CHI CH'UAN
Wang Tsung-yueh [Wang Zongyue]

Now if we train to have such a high level of skill where we are so sensitive to outside forces would it not make it possible to evade any strike, grapple or possilbe takedown.

And thus making groundfighting training obsolete.

It is recorded that some of the old Masters could prevent a sparrow or finch from flying off their hand.

Nope, no chi or magnetic forces involved. A Bird has to push itself into the air with it's feet, and thus by negating the downward force of the push you can prevent it from flying away from your hand.
Lets hear your toughts.

[maoshan]

Yes, I'm aware of the classic. but has anyone reached this level that they don't need to know how to fall or roll?
Once that level of skill has been reached , I can see not having to go to the ground or even being taken to the ground. But again, who has reached that level?
The classics give us the goal to attain, but to reach it is very hard work. Daily meticulus work. How many have that much dedication? Not many.


Peace
Maoshan

[red_fists]

Hi Maoshan.

But does teaching "groundfighting" to TCC-Guys fix the System, or give them an excuse not to train harder to reach that Goal?

TCC is known as one of the most difficult system to master, but yet, there are Instructors pampering their students by giving them workarounds and shortcuts.

Tai Chi will not give instant gatification, it takes many many years of hard training to get there.

IMO, if you are not willing to put the time and effort either get out or shut up or stop making excuses for your own shortcoming by blaming the system.

In my Opinion if I get taken to the ground it only prooves one thing:

I need more training in TCC, not study another system.

How about using the time studying groundfighting to work on your TCC??

Yes, I am aware that it is only a minority of all practicioners that can reach this level, but this I think was always the case and is not confined to modern times nor to TCC alone.

Yes, the Classics show the goal, but it is not unobtainable.

Also the student has to ask himself why he is studying the system.
Tai Chi is an excellent fighting system, but not designed to teach quick self defense or similar.

So the question is :
Do you study Tai Chi in order to become a good Tai Chi player, or simply because you want to fight.

Just my 2 Yen worth.

[Shin]

Great answer Red.

I agree 100%.

[red_fists]

Hey shin.

Looks like we might be kinda neighbours.

Where in Tokyo are you??

Reply here or pm me on:

resinz@zaa.att.ne.jp

[Ka]

Wondering if you guys have come across any Tai Ki Keun in Tokyo?

[red_fists]

Hi you mean .

Tai Ki Ken I guess, I have seen their Web-site.

Try this site:

Tai Ki Ken (http://www1.usen.ne.jp/~gamegame/english.htm)

Quiet a bit of Info on there.

[red_fists]

Maoshan.

Don't get me wrong, I understand your point.

Here is a bit more clarification on mine.
Yes, we train for not going to the Ground, but in order to do so someone has to take us to the ground to show us where we go wrong and need improvement.

Now If I would be trained to respond to a takedown with grappling skills, I can never test my Skill of "not being taken down".

And thus I missed one of the biggest points in TCC.
And I would not reacting to an attack in a TCC manner but a grappling manner.

This is the reason why my Sifu sez:
"Do Tui Shou with as many people as often as possible, even people you don't know and have never trained in MA."

If I can be bounced out in Tui shou I can be take down. One and the same thing.

Yeah, it hurts going to the ground, but that's is one of the way we learn.
As much as we dislike it.

Didn't even YLC return to the Village multiple times to further improve his Skill.

It took him 18yrs, and in those days they worked 7 Days a week and trained after a full days work the same way we do or before they started a Days work.
Plus, I reckon their work Days were a wee bit longer.

YLC didn't train full-time, he was an employee at the Village and had to earn his income.

Just a bit of clarification.

[Shin]

Hey Red,

I'm not actually in Tokyo anymore. I just haven't gotten around to changing my profile. I move around alot these days on business, and Tokyo seems as good as any other place.

If I head out that way again, I'll give you a call though.

[Shooter]

red-fists, I'm not sure that one could derive such meaning from that line in the classics. As I've read many references to that passage, it was always in the context of movement being intialized by a high level of sensitivity and listening energy (ting-jin), and the naturalness to act without contrivance or preconception.

No matter. Addressing your points:

I don't know that Tai Chi needs fixing, but rather than an excuse not to train harder, Tai Chi Fast Wrestling (as I practice it) is just another facet of Tai Chi...nothing changes from standing to ground-work. All 8 Gates are still applicable.

Rather than pamper my students, I ask myself every day what I can give them now, today, that they can walk out of my training hall and apply immediately. I have to have an answer to that question every day if I claim to be sharing Tai Chi as a martial system. No short-cuts, just skills pertinent to their current needs and abilities...not what they'll have in 10 years.

One need not go outside of Tai Chi to have ground-fighting skills. I didn't. I renovated my practice of Tai Chi to address all aspects of the tactical training, and continue to do so everyday as the situation dictates. Just as with fighting in general, there are no styles...grappling is grappling regardless of what label people put on it. That's the first mistake...making distinctions and imposing limitations on things.

I have to disagree with the satement that Tai Chi isn't designed to impart SD skills quickly. For me, Tai Chi is the FASTEST way to good fighting skill.

In answer to your question, Tai Chi isn't just one thing or another...it's everything. A good Tai Chi player is able to apply the system to any and all aspects of life...not just fighting. It's an evolutionary process. Trying to hasten that process or "carve the block" just ain't natural.

:)

[red_fists]

Hi Shooter.

I agree and disagree with you on points.

[taijiquan_student]

It would be very nice if we were all invincible, sensitive to even a fly on our shoulder, easily defeating grapplers who try to take us down to the ground, but we're not. We should train for that goal, of course--train to be as good as possible--, but what happens if you are taken down? You need to train groundfighting if you want to be a well-rounded fighter. You don't need to make it your specialty, or learn hunderds of chokes and locks, in act I mainly strike on the ground, but you should be familiar with it.

Red--I'm not quite sure of your point. I think what you meant by talking about YLC going back to the Chen's, always getting better, was that we should always train this way so we cannot be taken down. We should be so sensitive and skillful this can't happen.

But saying we SHOULD be like this and that we should train for this, and saying one doesn't need to train on the ground or that ground training in taiji is obselete are two totally different things.

[red_fists]

Ok.

Let's have a quick vote. here.

How many are taught grappling skills in their Tai Chi style??

I know mine incorporates a lot of it as seem to do other TCC styles.
One of my favorite punches when I get to drive my fist into a prone Opponent on the floor.

So what makes Tai Chi grappling so bad that it needs to be subsidized with another grappling style?
Honest question, as we seem to have People here that mastered their system.

Taijiquan_student:
Did you read my earlier posts.

It appears that you are more interested in fighting than in Tai Chi itself.
Ever considered that there is an Option not too fight until your skill is good enough.
Surgeons don't get to operate until their skill is good enough, so what's makes you & your Tai Chi different from them?I think the answer is Ego.

And the "what if" question is what,IMO, a looser asks.
Because you spend so much time asking yourself "what if" and trying to get answers that your training will lakc from it.

It is a westerner thing that we need to challenge and improve/adjust everything as soon as we find the slightest perceived fault with it.
BTW, yes, I have been in fights and I have been taken to the ground. No, I have NEVER studied any groundfighting other than what was present in the styles I studied and, YES, I survived and even came out on top.

IMHO, the question should not be "what if ...", but "how can i ...".

Maybe it is a mindset I picked up while doing 23yrs of MA study, living in multiple Cultures and having a strong exposure to Asian Culture.

I trust my Sifu & Sijo when they say, there is no need to teach you this and that.Heck, my Sijo has more than double the yrs in TCC that I spend on MA practice.

Anyhuh time to jump of the Soap-box.

[taijiquan_student]

I'm not suggesting you do another grappling art with your taiji. I think you can find whatever you're looking for in your one chosen art if you go deep enough.

If a surgeon opperates on someone when they're a beginner, even "intermediate" level, someone could die, or end up with a foot where their hand should be. If a student of taijiquan, after a year or two of training goes into free sparring, they get a chance to see how their form and tui shou applys to a more realistic situation. I'm not more interested in fighting than in taiji itself. Show me where you got that. All of my training is about developing my taiji.

I agree you can't spend your life asking "what if". You need to train hard--think "how can I". How can I be decent on the ground? By practicing groundwork. How can I be great standing up? By practicing standing up--doing zhan zhuang, form, tui shou, san shou, solo single movements, two person drills, etc.
But why neglect a part of training because you hope to eventually be so good you won't need to fight in that range?

[red_fists]

Originally posted by taijiquan_student
I'm not suggesting you do another grappling art with your taiji. I think you can find whatever you're looking for in your one chosen art if you go deep enough.

I agree with you there 100%.


I'm not more interested in fighting than in taiji itself. Show me where you got that. All of my training is about developing my taiji.

Your wording and tone of posting seemed to indicate so.
Sorry, if I misunderstood.



But why neglect a part of training because you hope to eventually be so good you won't need to fight in that range?

I don't neglect any part of my style, but at the same time I don't think that i need supplemental groundfighting /wrestling skills from other styles.

A lot of TCC Guys seem to think that Tai Chi contains no groundfighting skills and thus need to supplement with BJJ or similar.

For me the groudfighting aspects of TCC are different from a BJJ or Judo groundfighting.

Yes, I don't see a TCC guy wrestling on the floor or trying to apply a submission hold.

My Sifu always sez we don't go down, we go low (aka Creeping low like a Snake, stroke Pea****s tail, etc).

So for me there are different types of groundfighting and I don't think that I need to train the wrestling style one.

Well applied Chin na and low stances should do the trick.
Hope this clears things a bit.

[taijiquan_student]

I agree. You don't need to train in a style other than taiji (wrestling, BJJ, etc.) to be good on the ground. It's all right there if you bother to look.

[Internal Boxer]

Taijiquan Student

Yes you are correct you do not need to learn another style of ground fighting but what you must do is train against highly skilled ground fighters to see where their weaknesses are, or else if you only ever grapple with people who do not possess the same level as ability then it will lead to a false sense of security in thinking you have skill in this area.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings, Fellow Travelers...
Just another perspective.. I sense that we may be confining "Tai Chi" a little too tightly.. as some one said "it is ALL things".. My experience with Tai Chi has permeated all aspects of my life (thankfully). I sense that our formal training is but the tip of an expansive iceberg, a launch pad for greater personal discovery/development.. to suggest that TaiChi is one thing and not another is a boundary i hope not to impose upon myself. Tai Chi, in my own experience, is more a manner of experiencing life from a more "total" perspective.. so, i suppose that i am suggesting that we look at ground fighting, not as different from Tai Chi, but another venue in which to express our Tai Chi..
Sometimes i think we let our egos tell us that the ground is no place for an accomplished Tai Chi player to be. I suggest that we make ourselves comfortable with our Tai Chi on the ground, in the air, and wherever we happen to be..
Fighting is just one of the by-products of this amazing art, living life in a constant state of meditation is another.. (the symbiosis here should not go un-noticed)..
be well, all.. shine brightly