Wes Cameron?

[theghola]

I just finished reading through the latest issue of Inside Kung-fu, and it has an article by Wes Cameron... Apparently he is a sifu of the Hak Fu Pai system, aka "Sil-lum/Southern Black Tiger." The last time I heard, the only tiger system in the US was headed by Grandmaster Wai Hong of the Fu Jow Pai Federation. Could someone please give me some info on who Wes Cameron is, hopefully including who he learned from, and what his lineage is? My intent is *not* to start a flame war between rival systems/families/associations, so if that is your intent please do not reply to my question. I simply wish to know more information on Wes Cameron. Thank you for your time and consideration.

[Tekarius]

Actually there is someone in this board who studies under Sifu Wes Cameron. His name is Kung Lek and he's really knowledgeable in Kung Fu.

[wisdom mind]

sifu wes and kung lek are in CANADA not AMERICA....maybe that will help.

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

Yes Si Fu Wes Cameron is my Si Fu.

Si Fu Cameron and Si Mo Cameron have their Kwoon in Winnipeg.

Si Fu cameron has been my Kung Fu teacher for going on 7 years now and it has been a really good experience all the way.

If you would like more information we do have a website. It is <A HREF="http://www.mts.net/~jamieson" TARGET="_blank">http://www.mts.net/~jamieson</A>

if you have any further questions after browsing the site and readin Si Fu's bio or looking at the lineage chart, feel free to send Si Fu cameron and e-mail or post a message on the discussion board there or leave a message in our guestbook.

The Hak Fu Pai that is taught at Shaolin West is from the Toisan(pronounced hoysun) district of Canton. Si fu learned this system over 20 years ago and gives it to us today.

p.s, thanks for letting me know! I hadn't realized they had printed the article as of yet.

peace

Kung Lek

[theghola]

The site was helpful, but didn't answer my main question about his "Hak Fu Pai" lineage, and and who his sifu was for that style. Here's a verbatim quote that mentions when/how he learned Hak Fu Pai:


"Si Fu Cameron met his Traditional Style Black Tiger and Sil-lum Five Animals (Ha Say Fu Hong Pai) Si Fu, while demonstrating Kung Fu in the streets of Winnipeg's Chinatown in 1975. This Si Fu, recognising ability and humbleness in this young student offered to teach him. After requesting permission from Si Fu Kudding, Si Fu Cameron began to study these two styles for the next 10 years. Si Fu Cameron's only obligation to study the Black Tiger and Sil-um Five Animals Systems was to train hard and to keep his teacher's name anonymous due to what later Si Fu Cameron learned were Triad concerns for which he had left Hong Kong."


In the "Lineage" chart, there is a mention of a "Toisan District Master" and then the "Anonymous Black Tiger Master" who taught Mr. Cameron. I do not mean to insult you or Mr. Cameron, but it does seem a little suspect that he doesn't mention who he learned Hak Fu Pai from, nor who that person learned it from as well. I'm not saying that Mr. Cameron is not legitimate or that he is "ripping people off." I'm just really curious as to his background in a style that he professes to know and teach. I for one would not learn from someone who did not disclose his lineage. Yes, that person *could* have real and intimate knowledge of the style he claims to teach, but I wouldn't take that risk... Again, I wish to reiterate that I am *not* on a "sifu bashing" mission here. I just want to clear up some things that are a little bothering to me. Would you happen to have a little more information as to the identity of your sifu's Hak Fu Pai sifu? Or, if that is not possible, his sifu's sifu? (argh...leave it to the guy who knows Chinese to forget how to say that, hehe) Thanks for your time.

[Mo Ying]

theghola statement..."I do not mean to insult you or Mr. Cameron, but it does seem a little suspect that he doesn't mention who he learned Hak Fu Pai from, nor who that person learned it from as well. I'm not saying that Mr. Cameron is not legitimate or that he is "ripping people off." I'm just really curious as to his background in a style that he professes to know and teach. I for one would not learn from someone who did not disclose his lineage. Yes, that person *could* have real and intimate knowledge of the style he claims to teach, but I wouldn't take that risk... Again, I wish to reiterate that I am *not* on a "sifu bashing" mission here.".....AH HA but you are bashing, but only under the guise of not. Your teacher is Paul Eng who teaches Mantis and did study Fu Jow Pai (how long..since he has studied so much).
So many students of fu Jow Pai think theirs is the only legitimate Black Tiger system around..how arrogant and pompous (there are at least five systems of black tiger in china)..si-fu Cameron could have stated some such name as kwan lee or ming hung li or whatever to avoid this type of thing, but instead he respected the wishes of his si-fu and kept his name secret..but of course in your arrogance even if he did say some such name, you probably would have said..'i don't know this guy and my si-fu does not know him and wai hong does not know him therefore he must not be a true black tiger si-fu'...never mind the billion or so Chinese that you do not know! By the way speaking of fu jow pai lineage, here is a direct quote from one of the students of wai hong who runs a school and web site...'after leaving the shaolin temple,the first black tiger monk went into seclusion at hoy hong temple. This monks name was guarded in secrecy and never divulged' and in the lineage chart it says 'monk - unknown', so if we use your ill-logic ("it does seem a little suspect that he doesn't mention who he learned Hak Fu Pai from"),then this monk and all he supposedly taught must be 'suspect'. why don't you go tell your teacher that! And whoever heard of renaming out of respect, an art without the teachers permission after the teachers passing to something else other than what the teacher called it, for this would be a tremendous insult to that teacher, yet this is what fujow pai lineage says what happened and how they got their name(s).
si-fu Cameron teaches in chinatown with the support and backing of the elders in the Chinese community there and that in itself is endorsement that what he teaches is legitimate.

[theghola]

Yes, okay, whatever you say. Yeah, I'm bad-mouthing Wes Cameron and calling him all sorts of evil names. I believe he is worthless and a fraud. That is why I have challenged him to a SUPER DEATH MATCH OF ULTIMATE DOOM.
For crying out loud, *I'M* being "arrogant and pompous"? You know what, I said before that I don't want to get into a whole family/system/association bashing fest here, so I'm not going to take this any further. I refuse to start running around and calling people names, especially on something as public (and yet, ironically, as meaningless) as an Internet Forum. For the record, I have *never* asked my sifu about anything even closely related to Fu Jow Pai. I know nothing about the system, and do not profess to. I do not proclaim myself as the know-it-all master of all tiger styles history, nor have I ever intended to imply that I was. I never asked my sifu who Wes Cameron was, I have never even met, let alone spoken to, Ng Wai Hong.
The whole purpose of this thread was so I could find out more information on Hak Fu Pai and *learn* about its history and lineage. If I wanted to bash the system, I could've just gone out and said "Hey look at this so-called-Sifu Wes Cameron guy who claimes to know some sort of secret black tiger system and is a huge fraud and is ripping people off." That is something that I *never* did. In fact, I said the complete opposite, that I did *not* want to give the impression that I was doing such a thing. All I wanted to do was learn more about Hak Fu Pai because, *from what I was told*, the only tiger system in the US was headed by Ng Wai Hong. And, just so you know, burn the wikked made a good point about the fact that Wes Cameron and his Hak Fu Pai family are not even in the United States, but in CANADA. After reading that post, I became more interested in learning about Hak Fu Pai because it seemed like an interesting style, perhaps related to Fu Jow Pai (which I again reiterate that I know nothing about; my sifu has not even told me that he knows Fu Jow Pai, the only reason I know that he knows it is because my sihings have told me). And hey, if there is another tiger style in North America, that would be a *good* thing. I'm not against the proliferation of the Chinese Martial Arts. I believe they are treasures that should be shared and spread for the benefit of all peoples.
I do realize that perhaps my wording was a bit strong in my last post, but it was because I was concerned and I *was* a bit suspicious of the history of the style. Obviously, if you came across a style (for simplicity's sake, let's call it "The Blue Ostrich Platypus style"), and a sifu of that style claimed to know it, but wouldn't divulge the names of even the previous generation in his lineage, not to mention the previous two generations, wouldn't you be a little suspect? "Hey, I'm Sifu George. I know the Blue Ostrich Platypus style." "Oh really George? Who taught you that style?" "I can't tell you that." "Oh, I see. Well, who taught your sifu the style?" "I can't tell you that either." Is it just me, or does that not seem at least a *little* suspicious? Is it *wrong* to be suspicious when you're not given enough information? For crying out loud, I was curious. I wanted more information than was given out. Is that so wrong? And I never *once* said that Wes Cameron was a fake, a fraud, or anything else. All I said was that his lineage was a little bit suspicious, because, from where I stand, *IT IS*. And, just so you know, the history of Fu Jow Pai here in the US is not really comparable to the situation with Wes Cameron (which, I say again, does not mean he is illegitimate). From the Fu Jow Pai site, you can see that we know that there was the Shaolin monk that fled to Hoy Hung Temple (which I will agree in that he is not named), but then we do know that it went next to Wong Bil Hung, and he then taught Wong Moon Toy, who then taught [my sifu and] Ng Wai Hong, who then taught several others. So, in fact, we *do* know the two latest generations of masters (Wong Bil Hung and Wong Moon Toy), *and* we know the identities of the masters who are still living as well. Also, I never said anything was wrong with the *name* of "Hak Fu Pai." That's just ludicrious... You can't call a system illegitimate just because of the name (unless it is Shaolin-Do, hehehe).
Look, this post is starting to become a rant (something for which I am notorious for, heh). I did not come here to debate which style is better than which, and whose style is more legitimate, and other things of that nature. I simply came here for more information. Period. If it is suddenly a crime to ask questions, then you might as well lock me up and throw away the key.


PS- Kung Lek, if you wish, we can continue this discussion via email. I really would like to learn more about your system and its history.

[Kung Lek]

Ok guys, just chill.
First off, no offense taken, but thegola, if your teacher asks you to maintain anonymity then it is your responsibility to do so no matter what slings and arrows you must suffer for doing so.

That is filial piety and shows that my teacher has the utmost and deepest respect for his teacher as I do for him.

I understand that there is a curiosity with Lineage these days that sometimes goes beyond decorum and starts all kinds of ill intentions, challenges, rumours and you name it.
And for what I ask?

Look at all the posts here dealing with this very subject and elsewhere.
People are threatening, people are challenging and some are even slandering and defaming teachers of chinese martial arts who may very well be terrific teachers.

The primary concern I had when seeking a Kung fu teacher was NOT lineage, but rather I saught genuine Chinese Martial Arts.

I have studied martial arts since I was a young boy, and honestly, Si Fu Cameron was the first and only Sil Lum kung fu teacher I met in the city I live in, that due to my own study and research and contacts i was reliant that this was a good if not Great teacher.

Si fu cameron is recognized in the Chinese community as THE Si Fu for many associations and they associate with him as such and recognize his skill and ability.

The elders of the Chinese community know who Si Fu Camerons teacher is in Hak Fu Pai and they maintain the anonymity of that teacher also.
That is community.

There are other Kung fu teachers in winnipeg, a couple of whom I have watched classes and even participated in some classes before having the pleasure of meeting Si Fu Cameron.

There are other Kung Fu teachers in Winnipeg now and I am sure they are good teachers and I know that a couple of them have really good attitudes and teach in the traditional way.
I am not terribly concerned with my Si fu's lineage and I see through hard practice and results that the Kung fu I am learning is of a very high caliber.

So, I do understand the importance that many place on lineage as in some ways it is a way of knowing at least where the system came from and whether or not it is genuine. In a sea of styles this can be the only marker for a beginning student to know where to go and truly, I can appreciate that. This was not the case for me as I had been exposed to martial arts for a very long time and I sought other markers.

A good lineage chart does not make a good teacher.

Si Fu's who wish to remain anon must have their wishes respected. It is not so long ago all the troubles from China, Hong Kong and even New York triads and those memories are still quite clear in the minds of the elders of the chinese community. To respect those wishes, I certainly cannot and will not break those wishes and tell everyone about Si Fu's private life or Si Gungs life because someone is suspicious.

If it is your perogative to close that door because of that one concern then so be it.

Now if ya wanna talk about Black Tiger Kung Fu and the benefits of training in the system, then lets do it!

Peace

Kung Lek

[Mo Ying]

Yo theghola,

Well-okay sounds not too bad - but si-fu Cameron stated his reasons and given his position in the wpg chinese community - there is no reason for suspicion.
By the way he is not illigitimate - his mother was married when he was conceived he he.
The whole thing of legit or not - for pete's sake, in china so many styles that were created by students who went on to be qualified and in some cases famous si-fu are now fully excepted as legit (even those that say they were taught by some unknown monk) Some examples of si-fu who created their own systems are: yang style tai chi, chen style tai chi, wu stle tai chi, praying mantis, fut gar, chow gar and on and on. It is only those students who do not become expert in a style and then go on to change it or to create their own that are not legit - si-fu Cameron does not fit this profile as stated earlier. You cannot expect him to break his vow to his si-fu, even to kung lek.
And what is lineage any way - it is much much more of a western thing as it is not so immportant in the east - what is or was immportant in the east is - does the style do what it is supposed to do and is the teacher of good character. Hey, I never said anything about you saying there was something wrong with the name Hak Fu Pai - I only mentioned Fu Jow Pai in how it came to be.
Regards

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Hi,

Chinese consider three items to verify if a style is legitimate and traditional: 1. it increases the strength and general health ie. proper alignment of muscles, tendons and bones which allow these to strengthen and gain better quality, increases the quality of and chi/blood flow, increases chi,etc., 2. works towards the development of the Spirit and overall well being of the practitioner and 3. provides an effective means of self-defense. The character and morals of the Si-Fu are equally immportant. Without all of the above, Elders in the Chinese Community would not provide space, support and backing for the Si-Fu.

'There is no gain without proper instruction, dedication and hard work'- GHD

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

One more thing I would like to add, besides thanks to Moying for your fairly unbiased attitude and support for my Si Fu.

Anyway, what i would like to add as a final comment concerning lineage.
There are many masters of Kung fu in China today who remain hidden due to political circumstance and the fact that Martial Arts practice in the traditional styles was until quite recently VERY illegal and punishable by imprisonment and even death.

Many of these msters have escaped the country to live a better life and without the tyranny of the communist regime. But, these masters are not stupid in their need to remain anonymous. Many of them still have family in the nation of China and grudges run deep and long and for several generations in many cases with asian cultural paradigm. This is known.

It was only less than 50 years ago when Mao was busy killing all things that had anything to do with traditional Chinese culture. Many great masters were killed and imprisoned and so there are many Lineages in Kung Fu throughout the world wherein the Master either founding or otherwise remains anonymous.

Many of the Chinese in our Chinese community still remember these times and still adhere to some secrecy and for very good reason when one takes into regard those peoples personal experience.

The Chinese community in many cities is very tight knit and very traditional. You see in many cases only the young trying to break from tradition.
In the city where I live, There are Chinese who live their lives and die in our Chinatown without ever learning english! The same is true across the country and around the world outside of China.

The cultural ways MUST be respected, especially by someone like myself who could be considered an "outsider" for the entirty of my experience and study of Chinese martial arts and culture.

I am totally ok with this as I am allowed by the good graces of my Si Fu to learn these arts and also by others in the chinese community who have opened the door so to speak for me to learn about other things.

My Si Fu is a very open and heartful person. He has even allowed me to learn from a visiting teacher. There is a very positive bridge of cultures that is occuring and I am happy to be even a small part of it. My Si Fu is instrumental in that bridging where I live and believe me when I tell you he has had to put up with much turmoil to make those bridges and make them stronger.

Anyway, I hope that you enjoyed the article and had fun at our website.

peace

Kung Lek

[South Paw]

To those who have seen the website of Shaolin West & Wes Cameron I must admit that Sifu "paatje" Kudding is a most remarkable man. He lived in the Netherlands and studied Macan Kuntao with my Sigung Ted Verschuur under Carel Faulhaber. They were all "Indos" or Dutch-Indonesians born in Indonesia.
I think Wes Cameron must have a rocksolid Kung Fu foundation, because it also did benefit me. Kuntao being the word for everything Kung Fu in Indonesia.

A good article to read, and which refers to this particular style:
What is Kuntao? Cultural Marginality in the Indo-Malay Martial Arts Tradition by Philipp H.J. Davies, Ph.D., Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 9 - Number 2 - 2000, page 28 - 47.

South Paw

[Kung Lek]

Hi SouthPaw.
Yes, Si Gung Kudding was Si Fu camerons teacher for quite some time.

Si Gung Kudding was known as a "Great" fighter in the community here in winnipeg by all accounts and produced highly disciplined Martial Artists out of the Fei Lung Kung Fu association which he appointed Si Fu Cameron of as the Representative for the Manitoba Chapter of same.

peace

Kung Lek

[FIRE HAWK]

Hi guys there was a big war about black tiger styles on this board awhile back there was big arguments over the different lineages and different styles to.Some of the different styles of black tiger that i know of are Black tiger kung fu styles.1 SHANTUNG BLACK TIGER also called Hark Fu Moon 2FU JOW PAI also called BLACK TIGER STYLE and called Hark Fu Moon 3ZHEJIANG Black tiger fist also called ZHEJIANG NANQUAN 4 SICHUAN BLACK TIGER FIST 5 GANSU BLACK TIGER FIST 6 I also have a book called WHITE TIGER versues BLACK TIGER OF THE LAO HU CLAN of the SEVEN STAR SYSTEM KUNG FU the BLACK TIGER IN THIS BOOK looks like the FU JOW PAI BLACK TIGER style.I wrote to sifu WES CAMERON about the SHANTUNG BLACK TIGER and what he said to me about that style makes alot of sense i think that WES CAMERON is a legitamit sifu.I forgot about WING LAMs HA SA FU black tiger style. FIRE HAWK also my real name is ROBERT

[theghola]

Kung Lek:

I completely understand where you're coming from, and why your sifu does not disclose the identity of his own sifu. However, I was hoping that maybe more information could be provided. Since that does not seem to be the case, I will stop asking questions about his past, since he does not wish to divulge that information.
Also, I appreciate the lecture on "Eastern" culture, but you're talking to a Chinese-American growing up in the Northern California Bay Area(home of Oakland Chinatown, San Fracisco Chinatown, San Jose, etc etc etc.). Half of my family lives in Oakland Chinatown, and a few others are sprinkled around San Fracisco. =) And for your comment about "Chinese living their entire lives in 'chinatown' without speaking any English" - about a quarter of my family does not speak any English either. =P I do acknowledge that sometimes this is "how things work," but again, I was *hoping* that maybe more information could be found. Would you happen to have any information on the masters in your lineage *before* the "Toisan Monk"? I'm curious because it might be that the Fu Jow Pai and the Hak Fu Pai styles share a common ancestor (one that is more specific than "the Shaolin Temple" hehe). Then maybe later on we can compare notes and see where the styles are similar and where they differ. For clarification - I realize that lineage is not the end-all for everything, but it does give important information, and it does give a sort of automatic "validation" for the person in question. If you have heard of his/her sifu, and you know and respect that person, than would you not give that sifu's student more respect (due to his/her sifu)? And yes, it does not mean that just because someone has a very good sifu, that he/she has a high level of skill him/herself, but again, I refer you to the whole "validation" process. Again, lineage is not everything, but it does make things a whole lot easier, especially if you are trying to find a genuine sifu to learn from. Eh, seems I'm ranting again... Anyway, I do see where you're coming from, and I hope you see and understand where I was coming from. If all that you say is true, then your sifu should be given all the respect and recognition that he deserves.
PS- I'm just wondering, do *you* know the identity of your sigung? If you do, I won't ask who it is (again). I'm just curious. LoL one of these days my curiosity is going to get me killed.


Mo Ying - Although I do not appreciate being slandered based on assumptions, I do recognize that perhaps from where you were standing, it looked like I was attacking Kung Lek's sifu (which, I repeat yet again, was not the case). If you could, though, please do me this one favor. Next time, please try not to "jump the gun" and start making accusations based on something as open to interpretation as an internet forum post. Due to the inherent nature of these forums, things tend to get taken out of context rather easily (people like to write posts as if they were actually *talking* to the other person in real life, which can lead to several problems; not to mention the fact that people feel invincible because they're sitting behind a computer...). First, ask questions to verify your hunches. Then, if the person confirms, you can blow them off and call them all sorts of derogatory names (YOU B-STARD SON OF A NINE-A APE MONKEY! hehe). ;-)


In closing, I'd like to say goodbye to these boards. I'm not leaving because of this one thread, but because of a culumnation of several things that I have observed. Things are too tense in here for any real sort of discussion to occur on Chinese martial arts, or martial arts in general. Well, at least it seems that way to me, heh. Hopefully later on, things will be different... Anyway, I need to start concentrating on my non-internet life. A certain someone thinks I spend too much time on the computer, and not enough time doing...ahh...other things. I wish you all good luck in your CMA studies, and any other endeavors you may be pursuing. Take Care.


PS- Kung Lek, please email me. I'd like to keep in touch with you so we can continue our discussions later on.

[Mo Ying]

thehgola

Words to communicate are important and powerful. I agree that you do not get the total inflection and not any of the body language. One has to be careful to convey the correct meaning as much as possible, for example you say - "If all that you say is true, then your sifu should be given all the respect and recognition that he deserves" - the words 'if' and 'true'are powerful in this context for they can imply you doubt the honour of sifu Cameron in that he would not be telling the truth - an insult to sifu Cameron. Now perhaps you do not mean this - so please chose more carefully how you write. Look back to the site - I don't believe any mention is made to a Toisan Monk, but to a Master.
Regards

[hasayfu]

Firehawk wrote: "I forgot about WING LAMs HA SA FU black tiger style."

Just for clarification, Ha Say Fu (lower four tigers) is not a "black" (Hak/Hark) tiger system. It is considered a Hung Gar system. The name comes from the area where the style was popular and does not mark it as a tiger style. It has an equal emphasis on the traditional 5 southern animals. (Panther, tiger, crane, snake and dragon) Of course, being a southern style with a Tiger element, they share some similarities.

Like Sifu Cameron, I can understand about the anominity. We do not know who taught Leung Wah Chew and it doesn't matter.

HSF it may not matter to you. But if it was an incomplete system it may be then. Also it is always good to know your lineage. For axample some can actually trace the whole **** thing to the Hui Neng (over 1300yrs) era.....it is nice to know origins as then you know brothers and thus your art may be completed.
I find that people hiding under 'TRIAD Excuses' must be so lame, it is all a bunch of BS. Especially a Sifu having fear of such matters crap....respect what....in chinese it is respect to call on and remember ancestors .... not to hide them not know them or forget them.

My Invincible Style Shall educate you

[Gold Horse Dragon]

kfl...I guess you are a reincarnation of one of those killed in the Boxer Rebellion who thought they were immune to bullets...still have not learned I see...Triad concerns are just that...example - a well know si-fu in San Fran. was shot to death in a Triad hit, Wong Fei Hung's son was shot to death by Triad drug runners...so si-fu do have concerns when it comes to bullets and themselves and their family. A good student abides by the wishes of his si-fu out of respect, admiration and careing for his si-fu...to question is disrespectful (in Chinese culture). Lineage is handed down by word of mouth on the whole and is very open to inaccuracy and exageration...the same with written history - "history is according to the Author".
Many teachers do not want noteriety for various reasons..for example Buddhists are taught to shun noteriety..others include persecution and safety.
You think way too much of yourself and your opinions...best to seek some humility and manners.