back and posterior deltoid

[Sevan]

Kinda cool havin you ppls for help. :)

What are some exercises you folks use for the back of the delts and back? all back

For functionality, but hey looks not bad either ;)



Thanks,
Shane

[IronFist]

Back: Pullups are king for the lats. Do palms away from you, hands a bit wider than shoulder width. Deadlifts will rock your legs and your lower back. In fact, deadlifts are probably the best lower back exercise ever. As for the middle of the back, pullups hit them a bit, but so do rows and deadlifts a bit, too.

Posterior deltoids. Um, if you want to isolate, do reverse flies on the chest fly machine. Otherwise, lateral shoulder raises (like you would do for your middle delts) but bending over will hit the rear delts. Oh yeah, pullups work them too :)

Traps (cuz they're part of your back): I guess shrugs, but I don't like shrugs. Deadlifts will hit them a bit. Shurgs are probably your best bet though. Just don't go crazy with the shrugs. Huge traps look stupid, especially if they're way bigger in proportion to everything else on your body.

Iron

[Sevan]

What are lateral shoulder raises?

[Robinf]

For traps, what about upright rows.

You're really pushing those pullups :D

Robin

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by Sevan
What are lateral shoulder raises?

Flap your arms like a bird...now put dumbells in your hands. Viola! You are now doing lateral raises! :)

Try to keep a slight bend in your elbow to reduce stess on the joint...

[Ford Prefect]

King of post-delt work is the face pull. Stand facing a pull-down machine with a tricep strap. Pull towards your forehead while spreading your hands out.

[Sevan]

Heyas, thanks for the help, and i'll try em out and then give some feedback.

Thanks,
Shane

[IronFist]

And when doing lateral raises, don't raise your hands higher than your shoulders.

Iron

[tyciol]

This is the best way to work your posterior deltoids bro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhaJbtIT9cM


For traps, what about upright rows.The upper traps end up getting involved in lateral raises or upright rows, yeah. If you want to hit more of the trap overall (middle and lower fibers) bending over accomplishes this, plus rhomboids.

[TenTigers]

I always wondered why you don't raise your hands higher than your shoulders.
I would believe you would have full range of motion-yes/no?
Also, try doing lateral raises bent over. Some people rest their head on something.
It's great for people playing tail on the Lion Dance.;)

[A BIONIC LEG]

Your chinup/pullup combo would probably be your best bet for back, it runs the gauntlett on your whole back and core. With pullups (palms facing) you do tend to use biceps to "pull" so you won't get the full work of the back. I would sugest going wide grip on the chin up and raise up until the bar touches the back of your neck this causes your shoulder blades to touch almost like your crushing a grape.

Rear delts; I'll agree with IronFist reverse flys work great. However your still going to get the "crush grape" motion that you would from a chinup, just from a diffrent angle.

TenTigers

"I always wondered why you don't raise your hands higher than your shoulders.
I would believe you would have full range of motion-yes/no?"

Granted you do get full range of motion, however once you get a few inches above the shoulder line (while the muscle is flexed from the weight) you start to lose the contraction of the muscle. So I think its a matter of getting the most out of the motion and not a safety thing. But then again I could be talking out of my arse. I'm just speculating from my time in the gym and not from acctuall scientific knowledge, just experience.

[taai gihk yahn]

upper, lower and middle traps are all exercised differently, because they all have different lines of pull;

shoulder shrugs train upper traps; but honestly, don't waste your time: no one has weak upper traps, unless you've had trauma to the nerve supply (to test this, take anyone and have them shrug their shoulders, and then try to press them down - even on someone much smaller / weaker than you, it takes a considerable effort, if you can do it at all);

middle and especially lower traps are often inhibited / weak on many people, and these muscles are actually very important for scapular stabilization; middle traps are activated with any exercise that requires you to "pinch" your shoulder blades together; lower traps move the inferior angle inferiorly and medially (down and in), and are activated when you lay on your stomach and do shoulder raises straight up (basically shoulder flexion);

anyway

[taai gihk yahn]

Granted you do get full range of motion, however once you get a few inches above the shoulder line (while the muscle is flexed from the weight) you start to lose the contraction of the muscle. So I think its a matter of getting the most out of the motion and not a safety thing. But then again I could be talking out of my arse. I'm just speculating from my time in the gym and not from acctuall scientific knowledge, just experience.

you "lose" the contraction because at 90˚ you have maximal effect of gravity and once you get above 90˚, you get more and more out of the line until you are at 180˚ (this is the same for front or side raises); so if you lay on your side / stomach and do side / straight arm raises, the maximal resistance from gravity is at the end of the range, not at the middle; of course, towards the end of the range you get to active insufficiency (maximal shortening) and so the muscle isn't as efficient as towards the mid-range;

[A BIONIC LEG]

you "lose" the contraction because at 90˚ you have maximal effect of gravity and once you get above 90˚, you get more and more out of the line until you are at 180˚ (this is the same for front or side raises); so if you lay on your side / stomach and do side / straight arm raises, the maximal resistance from gravity is at the end of the range, not at the middle; of course, towards the end of the range you get to active insufficiency (maximal shortening) and so the muscle isn't as efficient as towards the mid-range;

Awesome, thanks for the info.

[taai gihk yahn]

Awesome, thanks for the info.

you're welcome; also, for side raises on your side to have maximal gravity at the end of the range, you would have to do it w the bottom arm, not the top - so if you lie on a weight bench w he bottom arm hanging off the edge, it would be kinda like this pic, except the lower arm would hang all the way off the edge, and would be the one you are lifting, through a 90˚ arc from hanging straight down to level w the bench:
http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/fbbuploads/med_1241100229-shoulder-exercises-lying-one-arm-lateral-raises.gif

BTW, I am not advocating you do this, I'm just giving an example of a movement where gravity is maximized at the end of the range; it may not be the best thing to do, especially w shoulders, given that it may increase risk of injury (strain, impingement)

here is a good example of lower traps doing prone shoulder front raises (fexion) w gravity maximized at end of range:
http://bayerhearts.com/gfx/BEST_Superwoman_Finish.jpg
this one is fine to do, the risk of injury is much less (of course, unless you have pre-existing pathology); of course, you can do it on a bench, on a ball is harder (although it's good for working core stabe at the same time)

[TenTigers]

I would think cables or power bands, or even chains would increase resistance as the arm goes past level.
I do "get" that once you go past level, the resistance drops, but if you only go to that point, wouldn't that affect your range of motion as your delts get developed?
Hence, musclebound?
Also, even if you are no longer getting maximum contraction, (meaning you have achieved max contraction, and now the power curve lessens)aren't you still developing the delts more completely?

[mickey]

Greetings,

TenTigers, I agree with you.

If a muscle can create movement through a certain range, it follows that it should be strengthened for that entire range.

I have always ignored the no higher that parallel rule. It never made sense. The training methods of gymnasts fully develop the deltoids and there is nothing partial about the way they train.

mickey

[taai gihk yahn]

TT and Mickey

Good points both; I think the "answer" is relative to the goals in terms of where in the range u r working; certainly doing lateral shldr raises w bands u wud off set the decrease in gravity resistance as u went past 90 deg (cables and chains i don't thinks so unless I'm missing sumthing)

As far as the why and wherefore, personally I am all for working through the entire available range; although, I like it more in context of functional diagonal patterns - meaning that instead of over-emphasizing pure shldr abduction, I would rather get a diagonal elevation pattern, such as a chopping or low to high or pulling low to high - this way, when u reach end range, it's in context of / supported by the whole body structure, so it is not being asked to work "abstractly" so to speak, and as such less prone to overuse, strain etc.;

One reason that perhaps there is the "rule" about staying at 90 may have to do w concern is the prevalence of injury related w moving thru full range shldr abduction, that impingment occurs more often above 90...

[TenTigers]

the reason I mentioned cables, is that they do not depend on dead weight and gravity, but have consistant resistance-although your movement itself will create a curve as well.
The chains an old-school method of creating variable resistance, and are used as such-let's say you are doing bench press-you attach a heavy chain to each end of the barbell. The chains go all the way down to the floor and pile there. As you lift the weight, the chain is brought up, so more weight is being applied to the bar as you lift them off the floor. Poor man's nautilus. Now, they actually sell chains and attachments.

[IronFist]

One reason that perhaps there is the "rule" about staying at 90 may have to do w concern is the prevalence of injury related w moving thru full range shldr abduction, that impingment occurs more often above 90...

That's what I'd always heard.

[rachard1583]

It all depends on the person seeking to utilize the technique. That is why options in techniques are encouraged, as long as the stable of techniques from which to draw rely on gross motor skills, are easy to learn and practice and focus on the 4 main targets on an attacker: eyes, throat, groin (balls) and shins.


russian martial arts (http://www.kgb-militaryschool.com/view/video )

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Huge traps look stupid

Iron

no way bro. im on a personal mission to eliminate my neck.

[IronFist]

lol dude I just realized you quoted a 9 year old post of mine :D

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

thats ****ing awesome.

also ... for others who are saying things .... dont go above shoulder level on lateral raises simply because it will **** your shoulders up. im too drunk to elaborate on the physiology, but range of motion does not in any way equate to maximum resistance on isolation exercises. if you are doing rehab / prehab .. . then sure, very light resistance (light dbs / bands) in full range of motion are great for getting blood flowing to the area. however, this same principal does not apply to actual strength training. big compound movements (squat, deadlift, overhead, clean, snatch, etc) are best done in the fullest range of motion in which propper technique can be maintained. this builds functional strength by doing what the body was designed to do with resistance. isolation movements are not the same. these are designed to build muscle / get blood flowing in areas that might be weak / injured. toward this end, time under tension is far more important than intensity, and limiting the range of motion can help toward this end, while also maintaining joint health. ill try to review my post tomorrow, when im not ****ing hammered to clarify.

[No_Know]

Hercules' Elbows, House of Lizard Kung.

Elbows in and down moves with extending forward and elbows back-passed your shoulder.

No_Know