The Tao Of JKD

[scotty1]

Regardless of what you think of Bruce Lee, what does everyone think of The Tao Of Jeet Kune Do ?

I mean with regard to its description of basic and advanced combat principles.

I am reading it at the moment, and I have jsut finished the section Tools, which seems to mostly be about boxing.

Do you think it is full of good advice or full of untruths? I don't have enough practical experience to know, but it seems to be good, common sense stuff.

Please don't turn this into a Bruce-bashing thread.

[Budokan]

It's a pretty good reductionist view of fighting methods interwoven with philosophy. Worth reading.

[stumpydee]

The Tao of Jeet Kune Do is a collection of Bruce Lee's Notes, some he copied directly out of other books, like Jack Dempseys Fireside Book of Boxing.

Don't get me wrong here the Tao has some really good insight into what Bruce Lee was thinking and researching and i really enjoyed it, but some people put to much empahsis on the writing contained in the Tao. Personally i think if you want to read a book about Bruce Lee's art of Jeet Kune Do you should read the 3rd book in the Bruce Lee library Series: Commentaries on the Martial Way. Edited by John Little.

This book gives a lot more of Bruce's actual opinions on things as well as lesson plans written by Bruce and lots of really good information. Also Sifu Lamar M. Davis' Book Jeet Kune Do Scientific Street Fighting is a great read.

And by the way why would this turn into a Bruce Bashing thread, why would you bash a dead man?

Damian

[Budokan]

Stumpydee, from the number of your posts I see that you're new here and perhaps don't know that ANYTHING posted about Bruce Lee will, sooner or later, turning into a Bruce Lee bashing thread.

Just give 'em time...

[shaolinboxer]

I have read it several times, and the thing that bothers me the most about TDOJKD is you can't tell when he wrote any of the thing in the book.

Since it is a copy of his notebook, his thought experiments and such, how can we know that if actually chose to write a book that he would have said the same things? Had he changed his mind already? Can anyone at 32 years old really have a complete grasp of their own martial arts?

It's a good book, and worth studying. However, it begs as many questions as it answers.

[scotty1]

Interesting points, and all valid.

"And by the way why would this turn into a Bruce Bashing thread, why would you bash a dead man? "

LOL!!

It must be very popular as I got it out of the library the other day (after waiting 4 weeks for someone to give it back, in another town) and can't renew it, as somebody else has reserved it!

I suppose some think of it as their bible. Is that how it is for JKD people?:)

[Chang Style Novice]

"Dead men don't hit back."

sorry

[Sharky]

GDA bashes dead men " on the regular "

[stumpydee]

I do practice JF/JKD, and i would say that there are a lot of people who consider the Tao their bible, and this is a big mistake.

If you have ever read commentaries, it has a much clearer message, it is based more on the theories of economy of motion, simplicity and directness. The notes used to compile the commentaries on the martial way are more Bruce Lee, than outside sources, it is like a reflection on his research as opposed to his actual research notes (the Tao). And i think it offers a lot more to the person who wants to know about Bruce and JKD.


Budokan
I know what you mean even on JKD forums were people are supposed to like or at least be interested in Bruce Lee they still manage to get people to come and bash him.

Damian

[rogue]

More interesting as a glimpse into his search process than as a conclusive document on fighting or martial arts.

I don't think it contains much unique or very advanced information, well at least it shouldn't be considered advanced if you're studying with a good instructor. And don't get me started on the philosophy section.

With all that said it's definately worth owning at least to see a small part of the process that Lee used to get from being a student of Wing Chun to the founder of JF/JKD.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

sharky is correct.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

.... the book

i gained a new respect for the man after reading the book. i think bruce was very good at taking eastern philosophies and describing them in ways that make a lot of sense to those of us in the west. anyone from china with a strong grasp of american culture could do the same, but i think bruce was particularly good at it.

[NafAnal]

Bruce lee was sh it because:

-Only trained max 3 years properly in WC
-WSL beat him when he tested his skills in the 70's
-Gene Lebell screwed him over on the mat
-Never fought a decent opponent. His fights on the set of ETD if unstaged were against inexperienced street bums
-Impressed some sh itty karate and TKD guys like chuck norris
-wasn't actually that fast or strong

:p

Tao of JKD was mostly lifted from a boxing manual.

Let the flaming begin....

[Colin]

Ouch!
You got some balls there nafanal

Fair comment though!

[LEGEND]

Bruce lee was sh it because:

-Only trained max 3 years properly in WC
" Funny however that his classmates WONG SHUN LEUNG( the best fighter out of the HK bunch ), Hawkin Cheung, and William Cheung said BRUCE was pretty good.

-WSL beat him when he tested his skills in the 70's
"That is debatable and a lot of CMA guys want to say this cause they want to hear BRUCE get beat."

-Gene Lebell screwed him over on the mat
"www.genelebell.com talks about his encounter with BRUCE and LOL...Gene Lebell has screwed the likes of BENNY THE JET, CHUCK NORRIS, JOE LEWIS, and even pro boxers. Afterwards BRUCE had like 13 sessions training with GENE LEBELL."

-Never fought a decent opponent. His fights on the set of ETD if unstaged were against inexperienced street bums.
"Neither has a lot of CMA masters and GRANDMASTERs...other than CUNG LE! Why...who knows???"

-Impressed some sh itty karate and TKD guys like chuck norris
"LOL...CHUCK NORRIS is ****ty...back in the day...he, Joe Lewis, Benny the Jet, Bill Wallace and some others started the FULL CONTACT karate circuit which evolve into KICKBOXING. Chuck Norris is a man deep within TANG SOO DO...a brown belt in BJJ and a very good boxer. Where did this fool get him ranked in TKD??? Wrong info!"

-wasn't actually that fast or strong
"Joe Lewis who is a body builder and martial artist contended that BRUCE upper body was very strong. His lower body was questionable however. But Bruce wasn't into grappling..."

"CONCLUSION...it's funny but I like to see some of these talkers step up BRUCE back in the day. He didn't take critism well and there were plenty of guys that tried. Bruce based on psychological intimidation would finish a fight before it began ala TYSON. Yes he was a bully but he was a very complicated man. The Tao of JKD is nothing more than notes of various arts he studied or wanted to study...nothing more. They way he fought or practice can be seen on his past videos and going to seminars of peeps he trained with. Judge for yaself after training with Ted Wong and Dan Insonto or Joe Lewis."

[rubthebuddha]

WSL was lee's sihing -- his older brother -- by a longshot, so beating lee up wasn't all that difficult for him. a couple times, lee would show up for class before his classmates, lie to them by saying the instructor was sick and class was cancelled, then hope to get a private lesson. WSL found out about this and indeed gave lee a private lesson -- a bloody one.

and william cheung? also lee's sihing. in his own letters to william cheung after he and wing chun were no more, lee admitted that he had always looked at his sihing as probably the best pure fighter he knew.

and chuck norris being crap? ask anyone who has eaten his sidekick, or maybe ask for a chance to eat one of them yourself, and then maybe rethink your opinion of the guy.

[LEGEND]

Ohhhhh WONG SHUN LEUNG...kept thinking he was pulling da WONG JACK MAN crap...it is true...WONG SHUN LEUNG and WILLIAM CHEUNG back when Bruce was 14 or 16 were beating the crap out of BRUCE in chi sao and others...so what...Bruce came back in the 70's and there is an interview on one of the WING CHUN links regarding his encounter with WONG SHUN LEUNG who he looked up as an older brother type deal. It mention Bruce was talking about interception and what he modified in wing chun to make his way better for HIM. Wong Shun Leung also held a pad in the air so Bruce would show off his power regarding his straight punch. WSL felt that Bruce was really fast but being a martial artist and top gun guy also felt he could counter BRUCE's attack. No big deal. So did many of Bruce's peers.

[diego]

it talks about bruce going back to hk sometime 70-72, after the whole 66? fiasco of him wanting to film the sets and yip man said no cuz then he would have to tape them for everybody.

when bruce went back in the 70s he chumped all yipman students who would step up, then he went on to say he discussed is theories/synthesis on combat with yipman, and he was very impressed, then bruce says ip didnt have time to implement bruces theorys as he died shortly after, as did bruce.....CHECK IT OUT

[rubthebuddha]

sounds like the print version of ralek.

[Budokan]

See? It didn't take long to turn into a Bruce Lee trashing thread after all.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

it didn't even make it to page two man.

[Budokan]

I know. Pretty sad, really. Tells you a lot about some of the people who infect this forum. They're unable to participate in a simple thread about a book without pulling their flame throwers.

At least you just f*ck dead people, GDA. A man's gotta respect that...:D

[yenhoi]

Anyone whos interested in Bruce Lee or Jun Fan Gung Fu, or JKD, or Jun Fan JKD or whatever should definitely start here, it is a very good glimpse at Bruce Lee and his teachings / philosophy. People should also continue their research by reading through the Bruce Lee library, and then start looking into boxing, fencing, wing chun and other kung fu and ed parker karate (kenpo?). Depends on why your out to read Bruce Lee, and how much research you want to do. Always remember that none of those books were written by Bruce Lee. If you want something by Bruce Lee check out Chinese Gung-fu: The Philosophical Art of Self Defense. Thats the only book Bruce put his name to, also check out the Wing Chun book "by" Jim Lee and "edited by" Bruce Lee. (Notice the quotation marks) Bruce has alot of notes on the SLT in I think book two of his Library.

Now, concerning Bruce Lee himself. Persons who want to 'bash' him and such should really think before speaking. Judge a teacher by his students, and Bruce Lee has many who are still alive and kicking, who are very decent and respected Martial Artists - some of the less visible ones would be Mr Poteet, Mr Kent, and Mr Maga - and there are always the more visible ones such as Mr Insonto and Ted Wong. There is actually a book out there by Jose Fraguas (spelling?) where he interviews like 12 or so of Bruce Lee's students, which should be a must read for jerks like naf – whom I doubt have ever met Bruce or any of his students, let alone trained, sparred or otherwise touched hands with them.

Anyways Bruce Lee made really kool movies and was neat.
:D

[[Censored]]

More interesting as a glimpse into his search process than as a conclusive document on fighting or martial arts.

I don't think it contains much unique or very advanced information, well at least it shouldn't be considered advanced if you're studying with a good instructor.

I agree completely. I liked the book, I own a copy, but no way is any of that stuff "advanced".

[Ryu]

Don't MAKE me make the phone call, guys....

Ryu

[rubthebuddha]

ryu, one of these days i'm going to break into your house, steal your phone bills and find out what bruce lee's phone number is. i owe him a cookie -- he brought the reputation for short people being good scrappers way the heck up.

[rogue]

A JKD/Lee thread and I didn't flame either one. I must be getting old.

[Budokan]

You're just mellowing with age.

[Sharky]

I think it is unfair to sell his scribblings and trade them off as his system of combat. They were just thoughts going round his head or things he were thinking about, imo.

It was insightful. I didnt see much wing chun in there, not as much as i though i would, at least, which i thought was odd. I was under the impression that when he died he was still heavily influenced by wing chun :confused: :confused:

Bit of a waste of time the printing of a load of names of moves every now and again, i was a bit with some of it.

Oh look at the time i gotta be up in 3 hours, i better scoot off to bed.

Toodles :cool:

[Black Jack]

Legend,

Is it not pathetic that some people feel brave enough to trash a dead man, yet alone one they have not done any real research on or trained with one of his original students for both a taste of what he passed on and the correct answers to what they might be bad mouthing.

Freakin Pathetic.

[respectmankind]

I base by fighting on JKD, or the philosophy of it. If no one knows, i am a boxer, and find it actually helps. It has helped in several challenge matches with people of strict styles as well.

[straight blast]

Bruce once said something about a sculptor chipping away at the stone (or clay, or marble, or whatever it was) to reveal the truth. I find the Tao of Jeet Kune Do to be a bit like that. For a "simplified" MA the concepts and stuff in the book is sometimes quite complicated, especially when he starts referring to things by their french fencing names.

However when you strip it down to its essence, it is very good. It's a good read for anyone interested in JKD. I'm sure Bruce would bang his head against the wall regularly if he knew that JKD'ers used it as a bible. He didn't even like being called a "master"...I wonder what he thinks of being elevated to deity status?

Next time you're on the phone Ryu, ask him for us would you?

[diego]

They eventually exchanged skill with thier peers within the martial circles, picked up skills and made them thier own, example"sunlutang, kuyucheung"

I think thats what bruce was on, people talk about he didnt know much about kungfu, but he would have known all the storys, now for you wc thusiasts, bruce supposedly only having three years worth of skill in wing chun technique, COULD YOU HONESTLY TELL ME BRUCE COULDNT KNOCK-OUT YIPMANS SONS??!.


I think bruce would have known all the storys on wongfiehung etc, and he realized thier is key-mechanics within martial arts, and the only thing that makes monkey and sumo differant, is the inherent trix within thier respective Spirit.
I think he was trying to work on the lines of what sunlutang did to combine the internal styles, instead of looking to combine jings to make a more superior method as sun was doing, he was looking at the most consistent techs within all ranges, so as long as you have four working limbs, with the theory he was entertaining any1 from a 3foot pygmie to kareem jabbar could apply, and everything else is monkey picks the rotted orb and flings in your eye technique of the yellowjacket style.

What do you think!!!.

[red_fists]

Hi Diego.

While I kinda agree with you there.

I think comparing Bruce Lee to Sun Lu Tang is a bit strange.

Sun Lu Tang mastered 3 systems and combined them.

I don't know how many system Bruce Lee mastered as such.
I think that both had a very different level of understanding of the arts that they practised.

I don't say this to bash Brue Lee.

[anerlich]

I bought the book a long time ago, and don't regret it.

Lots of stuff from Jack Dempsey's "Championship Fighting" in there. Still, if it was a compilation of notes made after his death, that's no cause for criticism. I own Dempsey's book too, and it's excellent.

Considering the small amount of MA info avaialble at the time it was produced, it would have been almost revolutionary to many. It's still a good, if somewhat flawed and disorganised, look at a number of aspects of MA.

While Joe Lewis has a few things to say about BL the man, he ate up and used, taught, wrote articles on, a lot of BL's stuff about angles of attack, etc.

These days, you can find a zillion books, tapes and DVD's which cover grappling (just one example) in a level of detail that leaves it for dead. But that's just the way things are now compared to then.

Chuck Norris ain't the world's greatest actor, but as an MA he was and is exemplary.

I'm not about to knock him or Bruce Lee, both of whom got me interested in MA in the first place. They both blazed MA trails and accomplished things that others can only dream about. They're not perfect. Are you?

Except making it as badass internet warriors - but you'd need a KFO account for that.

So they're not perfect. Are you?

[diego]

Redfist: What i'm getting at is, I do not think he was looking for physical form, but the psychology inherent within form" YOU MAY HAVE TO MEDITATE ON THAT BROAD-STATEMENT"
That was my reason for mentioning sunlutang in the respect that how sun seeked to make a style simplifying but maintianing high-class within the BIG3EYE!...Bruce was probably trying to do this from a psychology standpoint""THIS IS A RUFF THEORY I HAVE BEEN PONDERING" Wich is why you have things as ANERLICH mentioned, lewis heavily used his concepts on angleing, & i think that is really the basis to his writings on THE5?WAYS OF ATTACK"don't have my copy right now!!.""......
So, from those writings, we are dealing with attitudes in combat, such as fakes! & the like..Now i also think as abman also mentioned with the dempsey referance, the one thing many misconstrue, in referance towards, bruce supposedly just mixing wc with boxing and fencing,""I SWEAR I READ IN A INOSANTO ARTICLE, THIER WAS A LIST OF SOME THIRTY STYLES, BRUCE HAD THE PRIVY TO WITNESS, SUCH AS SILAT'S, KAJUKENBO AND THE LIKE" I feel the reasoning behind studying these mechanic's was like tennis it highly conforms to the bodys natural movements&gestures, has a 9-5 office space society; Compared to most storys on famous masters where they went through hell in the CHINESE OPERA. Having great muscle controll they learnt almost abnormal methods of fighting, wich JOE PUBLIC, could never pull off, However that is not the point i don't feel he was just trying to make a complete taibo, as his love for MARTIAL ART seemed to be the major essence for his SOUL, i feel he was trying to scientifically chart, MAN'S FIGHTorFLIGHT Characteristic's, So one who has internalized this method.....In combat it is more like playing BASKETBALL as oppossed to CHESS, In that most kf styles, many of us just don't have the flexibility "as i didnt grow up on a farm but played nintendo" To quickly pull off the strengths our styles creators could!

now at some point in man's story, the technique of pick up mud and toss in eye, was some secret ****, and thats why kungfu was so secretive backwhen, cuz masters didnt want fools throwing sand in thier eye taking they title.
Now everyone says, wonce you master your styles fahts, you always &up at the beginning, wich goes into kickboxing style of fighting, and agian everything else is monkey piks rotten orb and spits.WHEW, SO THATS WHAT I THINK BRUCE WAS ON, WITH ALL HIS RANTS AND DISSES N INSIGHTS IN THE MA UNIVERSE, AND HOW SIMILAR TO SUNLUTANG AT A HIGH LEVEL MAKING MINUTE HIS FORCES, GOOD'OL BRUCE WAS TRYING TO FIGURE// HOW CAN I DO THAT WITH THE MENTALITY IN FIGHTING, AND OH I'LL LOOK AT WESTERN SPORTING METHODS AS THEY DEAL WITH THE MOST BASIC HUMAN MECHANIX, THEN I'L MIC IT WITH THE BEST TRICKS FROM THOSE CRAZY SMOKED OUT TRIPLEFLIP KICKN KUNGFU'ISTS, AND I WILL BE THE ****, AND BE KNOWN AS THE ALBERT E. OF THE MARTIAL WORLDS, AS MY SYSTEMATIC STYLIZATION OF THE HUMAN ORGANISM, IS SIMILAR TO THE A-BOMB AS ALL ELSE WAS A GRENADE, That's what i get behind the real intention of jkd, but he died, but with our science and the tricks of the past, you could make that one complete method.

[red_fists]

Hi Diego.

Now this is my Opinion on Sun Lu Tang.

He learned the 3 systems, I do not think it was his intention to create a new style.

He met the Master of the 3rd System by chance and was NOT aware of Style he was teaching. At that time he was already well-known his skill in the other styles.

It is recorded that in his later days he prefered Tai Chi over his other Styles.
He hardly taught the other 2 styles in the end.

So my guess would be that he would have incorporated Hsing Yi & Ba Gua into his Tai Chi as it fitted him better.

This might have been concsious or unconscious, either way he ended up with a Tai Chi System unique to him.

Again I don't think that it was his aim to create a new system or improve on an existing System.

Just my 2 Yen worth.

[diego]

But suns my boy, so any of hisstory is good history.....:cool:

[diego]

:)

[red_fists]

Hey Diego.

Not a prob.

I just wanted to show that the "motivation" between the 2 people were different.

Which, IMO, is important when comparing 2 People.

I am still not sure which systems Bruce actually learned.

It is said that he did Tai Chi with his Father.
WC at Ip Man's Shcool for a few years.

Apart from that I am not aware that he got further training in either TCC or WC.

I am under the impression that after he came to the US, he kinda tried as many styles as he could lay his hands on.

But I am always open for corrections.

I give him credit for being:
1.)a good Actor(1st movie appearance at age 4~5)
2.) a good Dancer (won the HK Championship at age 18)
3.) paving the way for CMA in the west.
4.) Being a good athlete.

I think all of these contributed to his skill and fame.

Still not so sure if I see him as the "great" MA, that many people make him out to be.

But than this is just little ol me.

[KungFuGuy!]

Fight on, internet warriors!
Bruce would make you all his b!tch :D

[diego]

DUDE WROTE TEN YEARS BEFORE HE DIED IN TEN YEARS HE WOULD HAVE TEN MILLION DOLLARS AND BE THE HIGHEST PAID CHINESE ACTOR.

DUDE QUADRUPLED THAT TO INFINITY AND BEYOND:p for realll:cool:

[NafAnal]

:D

Sorry guys, i was just trolling.

I'm a Bruce fan really. Just repeating some of the arguements i've heard Bruce haters use thousands of times on these boards.... :p

[LEGEND]

naf...ahhhhhhh u *******! Call me bettyyyyyyy.

[NafAnal]

hehe i did actually guess that you'd reply.... :D

I went to a dan inosanto seminar once. The guy absolutely blew me away. 65 years old! He seems to really loves his silat. Great stuff.

And another thing, i seem to remember Tim Cartmell commenting that a lot of the techniques and methods in Jack Dempsey's "Championship Fighting" are almost identical to xingyiquan. Any idea if Bruce was exposed to any xingyi? I know some of his students have been.