The SiFu title

[Nichiren]

I have some thoughts/questions about the title SiFu. Who can call himself a SiFu etc?

1. If I have my own KF club, therefor I am a SiFu?
2. SiFu is a political assignment? E.g. you have to have the skill and write a thesis and it has to be approved by someone?
3. There can be only one? In an area(country, town, etc.)?
4. There exists one Si-Fu and many SiFu's?
5. The SiFu is not the Grand-Master of the style but the one responsible for your development?
6. A SiFu is a master? or a Master may be a SiFu? or...
7. Is the SiFu title different for different Chinese KF or is it the same? If different, should it be the same? If not, why?

What do you guys think? What is correct? Maybe there aren't one correct answer? Just currious... :confused:

/Peace

[Dave Farmer]

As defined by the literal translation (as I understand it), Si-fu is more a term of reference rather than a term of 'status'.

Si-Fu (Father- Teacher) was a term to signify the respect and link to teacher and student, rather than a sign of empowerment.

If you take one student this 'entitles' you to be called Si-Fu by that student.

As many have stated before, there are too many who use the title as a symbol of knowledge or power.

Personally, I don't mind if my students call me Si-Fu, or just Dave.

One thing I do object to is the term 'Master'.

Not only is this term banded about far to easily IMHO, but I refuse to be subordinate to any person, nor expect another to be so to me.

If another is my superior in skill, knowledge and experience in any field I will fully respect and remain humble, but I don't need to call them 'Master' to do so.

Regards

Dave F.

[Nichiren]

I have trained WT and the definition of SiFu is quite different in WT. If I remember correct the world is divided into different areas where you have a guy responsible, e.g. Scandinavia. In Scandinavia this guy was Emin Boztepe. The guy that owned the kwoon where I trained where Sisuk and my Si-Fu was Emin, i.e. there could only be one Si-Fu in Scandinavia but my Sisuk could become a SiFu if he wrote a thesis on a KF subject. Emin was responsible for the quality of all the WT people in Scandinavia. If an instructor, e.g. my Sisuk, had bad students he would be in the sh!t with Emin.

Anyone couldn't become a SiFu because you had to have the skill and you had to be someone in the organization.

It is interesting that the SiFu concept is different for different KF because they all come from one source, i.e. China.

The WC I train now don't bother at all with chinese terms. I don't think its good or bad. It is good WC and I am pleased.

[Juan Alvarez]

It is interesting that the SiFu concept is different for different KF because they all come from one source, i.e. China

China is preeeety big, with looooots o'people! :)

[reneritchie]

Hi,

The term "sifu" ("shifu") isn't different, and does not vary from martial art or branch, or sub-system. It is what it is.

The proper term "sifu", in a martial or religious context, combines the character for teacher (si/shi) with the character for father (fu/fu). It is a relational term, not a rank, title, etc. The person who taught you is *your* sifu, no one else. Just like your father is "father" to you, but your friend's father isn't "father" to you, just to him. The term, like the relationship, is personal (and can be profound).

Furthermore, there is no requirement for the term "sifu" other than the person being your martial teacher. They can have experience or not, skill or not, a school or not, be qualified or not--as long as they agree to take you as a student (todai/toudi or daijee/dizi) and you agree to take them as your teacher, they're your sifu. (Just like anyone, from a 14 year old, wet-behind the ears kid to a mature 50 year old man can have a child and become a father).

Note: There is another term that sounds identical that often causes confusion: a sifu/shifu with different characters is teacher-teacher (not teacher-father) and is an honorific or term of respect used for anyone who has special skill. In China, this can be used for martial artists, cooks, even taxi drivers (since in the early days driving was considered a skillful profession). Anyone skilled at a trade can be referred to by others as a sifu (though, at least properly, you would never find someone calling themself sifu).

In modern times, some have used it as a title of rank, or a degree to be obtained, as some have added colored sashes or other organizational/commerical trappings. While this might be necessary for them, it does not extend beyond them, and every individual and other organizations might have very different ideas about the requirements or even the usage itself.

Rgds,

RR

[rubthebuddha]

leave it to rene ritchie to give the best answer.

makes the rest of us look like poop. :)

anyhoo, a bit more reference on the WT sifu thing -- prior to the awto/iwta split, the following held true, and it still does in the iwta (not sure how emin has things set up these days). jeff webb of austin wing tsun has this on his website:

Sifu Title - An instructor who has proven himself as a WingTsun expert and teacher is granted the title of "Sifu" by his own teacher. To receive this title, his training must be technically "up-to-date"; be of good moral character; posess at least the 2nd Level Technician degree; and must have proven ability to teach students up to instructor-level.

i'd trust this, because sifu webb was given this title by ggm leung ting -- his own sifu. the term sisok means younger brother of your sifu. sipak would be older brother.

[Nichiren]

Rubthebudda: Yeah, I agree. Case closed... :D


leave it to rene ritchie to give the best answer. :D

[Marshdrifter]

At my school, the Sifu "certifies" a student when they've reached
a certain level and this basically means they can go off and teach
with the Sifu's approval.

If that certified person doesn't teach, that person isn't a Sifu.
If a non-certified person goes off and teaches, that person is a
Sifu.

This much I understand.

There's one thing I'm a bit curious about. It's mostly picking nits, but...

So what about another student who is teaching class? They're
still a student under the school's Sifu, but they're teaching all
the other students.

I also know there are terms for fellow students. Anybody know
where I can find a comprehensive list of these?

[rubthebuddha]

sifu - teacher
sisok - uncle (your sifu's younger brother)
sipak - uncle (your sifu's older brother)
sigung - grandfather teacher (your sifu's sifu)
sihing - older brother
di-sihing - eldest brother
sije - older sister
di-sije - eldest sister
simui - younger sister
sidai - younger brother
simo - wife of your sifu

those are the biggies. english spelling of any chinese term is always sketchy. i've seen sisok be sisuk, sifu be shifu, sigung be sikung, sipak be sibok -- the difference in spelling doesn't matter because you can never truly spell a word from a different alphabet cleanly.

[Marshdrifter]

Thanks, Rubthebuddha.

Here's another question. What would I use if my teacher was
a woman?

[reneritchie]

Nice list! To me it sounds closer to Dai Sihing (Dai sounds like die or dye in English, it's Da in PinYin and means "big"). You also have:

Simo - Teacher's wife
Sitai - Sigung's wife (not really commonly accepted but you hear it from time to time, it's literally used for a nun)
Sijo - Teacher/Ancestor (could be sigung's sifu, or further back)
Tai Sijo - Great Teacher/Ancestor (could be sijo's sifu)
Si Tai Gung - Teacher Great Grandfather (sigung's sifu)
Sibak Gung - Teacher Elder Grand Uncle (sigung's sihing)
Sisuk Gung - Teacher/Younger Grand Uncle (sigung's sidai).
Todai - student
Tosuen - grandstudent
Tosap (I think) - great grandstudent

Note: in the old days, there weren't usually so many generations alive or in the same place at one time so not many of these terms found common use ;)

The term for a female teacher is Sifu (not the religious/martial teacher/father, but the more generic teacher/teacher). You don't call a female teacher's huband Simo (teacher/mother), however, but I can't remember the proper term at the moment 8(

If someone other than the teacher is running the class, it doesn't matter, as your formal relationship is with *your* teacher. The class-runner is still your sigung, sibak, sihing, sidai, or whatever, they're just running the class (in the old days, it wasn't uncommon to go study with sihing, sigung, sibak, etc., but they remained just that unless both parties took on the formal si-to relationship).

Rgds,

RR

[red_fists]

Hi.

I think that the word "Sifu" should be used the same was as the Japanese Sensei (the one who went before) as a sign of respect and nothing more.

Nobody should call themselves Sifu or similar as it is not an official title.

Said that one MA Master was once asked how much he learned from his "Sifu", and he said which one as he has had literally hundreds.

Anybody that imparted any knowledge to him was his "Sifu", even People with inferior Skill in his MA.

A tough concept to understand for Westerners, who think titles show a real achievement or rank.

My Sifu alwasy sez:

There is a path that one must travel in order to becoming a MA. And there are many people wakling along the path, some ahead, some behind.
If you meet someone ask him for guidance to stay on the path, and if you are asked give guidance.

His walk along the path simply started xx yrs before mine, who can say which of us will end up further down the path.

Some people walk along the path and their speed will vary so it is possible that today he is ahead and tomorrow I am ahead.
At the moment we are simply to journeying down the path together.

Peace.

[Sleepflower]

The best person who can explain what 'Sifu' means is someone who can speak Cantonese/Chinese.

[Dave Farmer]

I think the translations in the above posts as close as you can get even to a native speaker of cantonese.

regards

Dave F

[reneritchie]

Red_Fists - The beauty of the Chinese relational terms is that many of them begin with the word "Si", or "teacher". You may have a Sifu (teacher/father, your formal teacher), but also the Sihingjay (Teacher/Elder Brother/Sister) who contain "teacher", and even the Sidaimui (Teacher/Younger Brother/Sister) who you may help and learn from in return contain "teacher". Both those who came before (elder) and after (younger) are teachers. This is very flexible because maybe a Sihing only trains once a week, or only trained for a few years 10 years ago. He is still Sihing, even though in terms of skill, his Sidai who train 5 days a week for the last 7 years could teach him a thing or two.

Rgds,

RR

[rubthebuddha]

again, rene is coming up golden. i wonder what this guy eats for breakfast.

anyhoo, i really like this point. no matter where in the lineage anyone stands, they can still be your teacher. i have the privelege of teach my kwoons newest students (get them all to myself :)), and i can't count how many times they've surprised me with a new way of looking at things. the more people i come in contact with, the more perspectives i get on the stuff i think i already know. every time i teach our new students, i learn something, be it from the 5'3" single mother of two to the 6'5" lacrosse player to the 69-year-old retiree. they ALL have something to share, and they all have something to teach me, whether they know it or not.

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
anyhoo, i really like this point. no matter where in the lineage anyone stands, they can still be your teacher. i have the privelege of teach my kwoons newest students (get them all to myself :)), and i can't count how many times they've surprised me with a new way of looking at things. the more people i come in contact with, the more perspectives i get on the stuff i think i already know. every time i teach our new students, i learn something, be it from the 5'3" single mother of two to the 6'5" lacrosse player to the 69-year-old retiree. they ALL have something to share, and they all have something to teach me, whether they know it or not.

Yeah, I sometimes think that new students teach me more than
I teach them. The best part is they always look worried when
I get that excited "ah ha!" look on my face and thank them. :)

[rubthebuddha]

i think more than half my material is from stuff i've learned from past students. explaining the fook sau in the first part of the siu nim tau, i'll make one comment, and they'll counter with "you mean, it's kinda like ..."

and i steal that "it's kinda like" for later usage. god bless plagiarism.

speaking of theft and sharing, do the instructors at your school share sound effects? when explaining the closing step, a lot of the instructors (and i'm beginning to do the same) say things like "shoooom" when teaching closing step. but they'll all use the same sound effect for the same technique. i think it's funny. does this happen at your kwoon?

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
i think more than half my material is from stuff i've learned from past students. explaining the fook sau in the first part of the siu nim tau, i'll make one comment, and they'll counter with "you mean, it's kinda like ..."

Or better yet, they'll ask a question, and the answer that you
make up on the spot gives you whole new insights into whatever
you were doing.


speaking of theft and sharing, do the instructors at your school share sound effects? when explaining the closing step, a lot of the instructors (and i'm beginning to do the same) say things like "shoooom" when teaching closing step. but they'll all use the same sound effect for the same technique. i think it's funny. does this happen at your kwoon?

Yep. And even better than that is English isn't my Sifu's first
language, so his English, while totally understandable, can be
broken at times. What's great is when a Sihing of mine starts to
explain something, he falls into the same mode of broken
English. It's spooky.

[rubthebuddha]

imitation is the best form of flattery, or so i've heard. ;)

thankfully, my sisok is quite fluent in english. :)