What's with this obsession with practicing Sil lum tao?

[fgxpanzerz]

I've read posts where people do slt for ridiculous amounts of time, hours, hour, 45 minutes. I'm sure doing slt builds chi and intent and all that other good stuff, but come on! In the famous words from "Ferris Buler's DAy Off," well I dont know the exact quote. SOmething about life passing u buy if u dont look around. Anyway, that's what will happen if u stand around doing slt tao forever. What happened to practicing chum kiu and bil gee? Not sil lum tao! Sure, it builds patients. Doing push ups also builds patience. Holding in yor sh!t and **** builds patience as well. Does anyone else get my point?

[wingchunner]

By the way the above post was stated, I don't know if this will be worth my effort.

I believe that SLT should be done regularly for 10 to 15 minutes at a time. To do it longer IMHO is not really necessary. It should be done slow to develop long-bridge energy, to be able to work on proper position and techniques, to develop rootedness, and to work on the energy within those techniques. It should be done relaxed and with minimal strength so more interal energy is used versus too much external energy. Doing it over 10 to 15 minutes versus one minute allows you to focus on the specifics.

SLT is the most important because it provides the foundation for the higher levels. The stronger the foundation, the stronger the higher levels will become.

We are looking for schools/students to teach this softer method to. If you are interested, please contact me at: wingchunner@yahoo.com Serious inquiries only.

Thank you,

Marty

[Kuen]

My obsession stems from the fact that I want to have good kung fu and without lots & lots of SNT/SLT it won't happen.

[wingchunner]

Chum kil doesn't take as long, so it can be done more. There is a lot to learn from both forms. If you are 'just doing the forms' without much thought, then the author of the original post is correct: don't let your life pass you by. But, if you are practicing the forms with thought, then you should be improving on a regular basis. If not, then you may be practicing something incorrect.

Marty

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by fgxpanzerz
I've read posts where people do slt for ridiculous amounts of time, hours, hour, 45 minutes. I'm sure doing slt builds chi and intent and all that other good stuff, but come on! In the famous words from "Ferris Buler's DAy Off," well I dont know the exact quote. SOmething about life passing u buy if u dont look around. Anyway, that's what will happen if u stand around doing slt tao forever. What happened to practicing chum kiu and bil gee? Not sil lum tao! Sure, it builds patients. Doing push ups also builds patience. Holding in yor sh!t and **** builds patience as well. Does anyone else get my point?

Ok, I don't take 45 minutes to do slt. At least, not yet. I do take
about 15 minutes to do slt.

It's not just about building chi. It's not just about building
patience. Um... ok, I'm not even sure it's about building patience
in the first place.

It can improve your stance, and by this, I don't just mean make
your legs stronger. It can work on your posture (an important
and sometimes overlooked thing in Wing Chun). It helps build
chi, yes, but it also helps you learn to use your energy correctly.
It can improve so many different things in Wing Chun, I don't
know that I could list them all. I'm not sure I see them all.

I do SLT (and all my forms, for that matter) everyday. Almost
everyday (and I'm in my third year with SLT), I learn something
more from it.

One of the most interesting things is how practicing my forms can
improve my two man drills (and vice versa).

If you get bored while doing your forms, or other "beginner" stuff.
Try taking a critical look at what you're doing and ask yourself
if there's anything you could be improving within that drill.

[JasBourne]

I don't think it's necessary to spend 45 minutes on SLT, 15 to 20 is plenty.

Why do SLT at all? It's the foundation of WC, everything boils down to the principles contained in it. WC is a game of absolute precision and completely controlled intent. That's what SLT teaches over time (precision and intent), so doing your SLT over and over and over again, with focus, is what will eventually make it possible for you to end an encounter in the fabled 3 moves. :cool:

[Dave Farmer]

Very well put Jas

Regards

Dave F

[red5angel]

I have been told 15 minutes is good, twenty is ok, more is of no use. You need to take your time, but sitting there all day is not going to help. Some say yip man did it so long to build Chi, so I suppose if you believe in it then there would be a good reason.

[anerlich]

I'm not a subscriber to the "longer is always better" theory either.

SLT (and any other form) needs to be done with focused energy and intent. Spend too long going through it, the mind wanders and the "elastic energy" cannot be maintained. Slow is good to facilitate relaxation, explore flow and perfect structure, but too slow the quality of the movement changes and gets away from the original intent. Intelligent striking requires the use of "pre-stretch" of the tissues and storing and releasing elastic energy, which cannot be done slowly.

I'd rather do it several times in a given period than one overly long stint. You're training the stance for the same period of time either way.

[vingtsunstudent]

i have posted this before & will not post it again.
i'm sorry if you disagree or don't understand but either way it's your loss.
Re: The novel-Barry Lee
Wednesday, 04-Nov-98 20:00:26
193.158.132.241 writes:
Andrew, BL'98.
I will answer your question as soon as I am able.Unfortunately I find
myself particularly busy at present and as I said this is a question
which cannot be answered in a few words.
I would say however that while you are often bound up in biomechanics
and injury as related to sports medicine you are missing the most
important aspects of training.
Sports medicine in particular is a fairly young science and by no
means has all the answers.In fact much can still be learned from
martial arts in particular,which have been around for a very long
time.We often seek to overcome the basic laws of physics and we can
still teach modern medicine a thing or two.
The stance in particular,if done correctly is more likely to relieve
pressure on the spine and correct many back problems while at the
same time strengthening the muscles which support the spine.It builds
strength in the ankles,legs and waist.The waist controls the
generation of power,the direction of force and energy,angles of
attack and defence,absorbtion of impact,the speed of your
step,balance,control,centre of gravity,facing and control of your
centre line and much,much more.You cannot aford to lose this position
and if you do you must be able to retrieve it in an instant.
If you feel pressure in the knees then you are most certainly
standing incorrectly.Do not put your weight in your knees or you will
NEVER be able to step quickly,never be able to use the waist to
propell you forward.You will ultimately "telegraph" your movement
when you step backward and will find yourself dragging your rear foot
when you step forward.You will have an incorrect centre of gravity
while standing still and when you kick and will be easily decimated
by a kick to either your front or your rear leg.You will never
properly control a sudden unrush of power by your opponent and often
will be driven into the ground instead of being able to step or
change direction easily.
The stance is meant to place controlled tension on the joint
areas..those areas easily damaged by quick changes in direction
particularly when under pressure from an opponent always trying to
force you away from your centre,in other words to force your weapon
and with it you away from your intended target.A form of isometric
training if you like which creates great strength in the ligament and
tendon areas of the knees and ankles not to mention the related
muscle areas.
If you cannot hold this toe in stance for long without your feet
straightening,then you will not be able to keep your feet in correct
position when you step..you will open your centre to attack,you will
drag your back foot and your kick will not be spontaneously delivered
from any angle at any time either while standing or in motion and
most importantly you will often find your waist incorrectly
positioned.If you have your back foot turned either out or in
incorrectly a kick to the front leg from the right angle will cause
both legs to collapse and you will lose you centre in the bargain.
It's an amazeing thing but this toe in stance creates a particular
tension through the legs,in the most important areas of the waist and
back and in the internal muscle groups of the abdominal wall.Without
this tension in the ankle you would find it almost impossible to
learn and feel the correct tension required for balance and strength
throughout your stance.
Also AND PLEASE REMEMBER THERE IS MUCH I HAVE LEFT OUT..
The Ving Tsun Stance is not a normal body position.We spend our whole lives
standing and moving in another way.Do you think that by standing in
this stance for a limited period each day or perhaps three training
days a week that the body will be able to retain this position or
retrieve it instantly when is under the extreme stress and pressure
of a real fighting situation.
Often one hour is all students have today in which to train this
stance due to the comittments of work and family etc and they also
want to go on to other things.What I am saying is that you should not
be in a hurry to proceed and overlook what is a fundimental and most
important part of your Ving Tsun training.Without the roots,without
the foundation the first good wind will uproot the tree.
From the outset,by standing for extra long periods in this stance,you
build correct balance and control of the body,the ability to feel and
draw energy from the ground,the ability to feel and control your
waist,not your waist controlling you,the ability to hold the correct
foot position by training and stretching the related areas.You are
taught the fundamentals of distancing of the feet,direction of your
step,the basis for easy natural kicking,a stance that will not easily
allow the legs to sink when tired.The ability to face and control
your centre and basis of lut sao and everything that siu lim tao
teaches us,which is considerable etc,etc,etc
Lastly and for me very,very important,is something overlooked almost
totally today by most who train in Ving Tsun particularly those who
train to fight.Standing for very long periods in this stance builds a
strength of mind and body which is a very hard combination to
defeat.If you can pass through the period where the boredom sets
in,pass through the burning legs and total body soreness that turns
ice cold and steel your mind to the pain you will eventually really
begin to feel everything that your body is doing and you will truly
be in control of your body not your body in control of you.
If your will cannot be broken you often cannot be beaten.When your
arms are so tired you can no longer hold them up,when a particularly
hard punch or kick really shakes you mentally as well as physically
you will find yourself drawing on reserves you never knew you had and
in a controlled balanced manner,because the body knows automatically
what is expected of it.It is conditioned to hold or take the correct
position particularly with the waist without the need for undue
strain because your training has made it such a natural position that
the surrounding muscles no longer have to TRY to hold it.
I have seen many fights won by strong minds that just would not give
in and many recoveries from almost certain defeat because of
instinctive reaction and a body that automatically positioned and
balanced itself correctly.
There are many other aspects to your Ving Tsun that encompass a
lifetime of learning and the siu lim tao stance is only a small
part,but without the stance there is no siu lim tao.Without siu lim
tao there is no Ving Tsun.Siu Lim Tao is not fighting but it is a
much more important step than many believe,not only to your
understanding but to everything you will be asked to do in the
future.
If you do not give Siu Lim Tao and this stance the time it
deserves,NOTHING ELSE will work for you with maximum efficiency.You
will never really understand your Ving Tsun and each new movement
will be harder to perform correctly..perhaps you never will know or
understand true Ving Tsun.
Regards,
Barry Lee. copyrightBL5.10.'98.

vts

[vingtsunstudent]

sorry i should add that i know time doesn't allow alot of us to practice for extended periods but do you really think that any of the great practitioners(i mean great not good) only practiced 20 minute slt.
again i know that it may be difficult to spend extended times doing the first form but making up weak excuses as to why it shouldn't be done is only an insult to those who came before us & try to pass on the correct knowledge that they were taught.
try it, do it slowly & FEEL the power that comes, i am sure once you have then there will be no reason to ask why the "SILLY" lenghts of time.
vts

[straight blast]

Another benefit of lengthy SLT is anger control. Last night I walked away from an offered fight by someone I knew I could destroy. This person had pi$$ed me off no end and I was so enraged when I came home I just wanted to go back there and hammer him.

Instead I practised SLT twice-nice, slow and really concentrating. By the end I was fine, & my wife didn't have to come home to a grumpy irritated husband.

Many benefits. I think I now know why all the old Kung Fu masters in the movies are so easygoing!

[kungfu cowboy]

I'd have to see some research on it to be sure, but I doubt that there is much applicable martial or other benefit over a certain amount of time, which is probably under an hour a session. I would think that there would be some negative effects actually, based on how the body reacts when it is overused. I think one of them is related to effects on blood pressure, or something, among others.

[Wingman]

In my opinion, some people don't do SLT as regularly as it should be done because it is not "fun". Most people go directly to chi sao. While chi sao is important, SLT should not be ignored. Most of the techniques used in chi sao are in SLT. The theories, principles and techniques of wing chun are encapsulated in SLT. We do chi sao in order to apply these theories/principles/techniques into practice. If you don't know the theories/principles/techniques, how can you apply it and make it work?

[dre_doggX]

is simple not just sil lum tao but any series of slow meditatiive movements made to excerise yi, jing and qi are good for muslce tone to do these movements really fast. and when you old weight lifting is not that practical. Potentially Internal Power( this means the combination of yi, qi and jing) is be powerful then just mere brute strength alone.

Tai chi, Yi Quan and Xing Yi,Quan as while as others, have stuff like this, example ZaZhuang. ironically doing Standing meditation(ZaZhaung) or movements very slowy with meditation of yi and qi, build qi faster the just doing the whole form. this is probabley why Yip Man could take 4 hours to do the entire form.

Sil lum tao is Qi-Gong doesnt have to be just Qi-gong but it is Qi gong why else do you think it's dont in a stationary stance.
I have not been faithful in acheiveing this but today I have started again.

that was the broad prospective but in even more simple explaination:

If Yip Man did it in 4 hours and was one of the best martial artist why not me if I want to be one of the best at Wing CHun.

[vt108]

I think that a message of Sifu Barry Lee says everything. SNT is very, very important part of VT. There is no Vt without SNT. Practising it only 15,20 minutes is to less if you want to be a good fighter.
When I practice Chi Sao and something bad happens to my waist I increase the amount of time I spent on SNT, Dan Chi and Double Dan Chi. It helps very much.

[stuartm]

SLT is Wing Chun - some famouus Chinese teacher (the name escapes me sorry) once said that you could use Wing Chun jsut by learning SLT. Not sure if I agree with this wholheartedly but yes - SLT has to be the main focus of attention and should be practised for at least 15 - 20 mins. Anyone who has practised Qi Gong (like myself in previous years) will tell you that quality kung fu takes time and effort, which should be the thinking behind your SLT.

I one went to a Tai Chi class where they taught about 15 postures each lesson. They did not mention rooting, abdomibnal energy, body mechenics - nothing. I then went to a class where we stood in the basic Chi kung rooting stance for 20 - 30 mins before even beginning the Tai Chi form. Have a guess which class i stayed with - yes the latter.

I have ahd similar experiences with WC classes where they dont even practise the forms. Yes - i know you can do this at home and most of the class should be drilling/sparring/chi sau - but you need a good sifu to talk you through the finer points of SLT. The most common mistake ive seen is students not sinking low enough in their stance, thus you are not developing an effective root.

Anyway, Ive gone on a bit of a rant, but they day you underestimate the importance of SLT is the day your WC begins to lose its foundation.

As they staying goes, "everything in moderation". So all you guys who've been standing on top of your local mountain for the past 4 hours can come down now !!!!!

Best Wishes, Stuart

[mun hung]

So all you guys who've been standing on top of your local mountain for the past 4 hours can come down now!!!!!

LOL!!!

[stuartm]

Excuse my ignorance guys but what is all this LOL type stuff. Im assuming that IMHO is 'in my honest opinion' but im lost ob all the other jargon !

Stuart

[Ish]

lol = laugh out loud

[stuartm]

Cheers Ish - that ones been bugging me for months. What about this ROLFTMAO one ?

[Ish]

sorry cant help you with that one

[dezhen2001]

you mean: ROTFLMAO (?)

i always thought it was Roll On The Floor Laughing My A ss Off :D

david

[stuartm]

Ha Ha ! Nice one , or should i say LOL !!

Stu

[wingchunner]

In the long post it stated that one should practice being in the stance for an hour. I agree. However, I disagree that it has to be done in SLT. SLT is not the only time we should be doing the 'pigeon toed' stance. SLT, Ck,... dummy work, partner drills all utilize this stance, all of which is done over a period of at least several hours. It is not necessary to train SLT for an hour or even half an hour.

I think one needs to be smart about how they train. What are you workinging on in SLT for an hour? Even half an hour? For development of the root 20 minutes should be about the maximum time. Cultivation of chi does happen when doing SLT, but there are better methods of cultivating chi. Doing the stance for long periods of time is good, also. But, because SLT isolates the techniques so they can be evaluated, focused, and developed, spending too much time on them is futile. 10 to 20 minutes is good enough and then spend the rest of the time applying what one learns through SLT.

This is my advice.

Marty

[CanadianBadAss]

I used to have an obsession with practicing Sil lum tao.
Same old story... my friends told me it was fun, and like everyone else was doing it... I just wanted to fit in... be cool. It started off maybe once or twice a week. But each time I did the SLT the more i needed. Eventully the SLT was controlling my life, everything was just about getting that next fix.
I droped out of school, and ended up on the streets, with the hoes and other SLT heads... I was at rock bottem. And just out luck, I stumbled into this building, a place where they help people like me. They gave me place to sleep and food to eat, and slowly the healing began.

But remember, the first step, is admitting to yourself that you have a problem, a Sil lum tao problem. Just say it over and over again. "I have an obsession with practicing Sil lum tao". And once you've admitted that to yourself, the healing procces can start.

"I have an obsession with practicing Sil lum tao"
"I have an obsession with practicing Sil lum tao"
"I have an obsession with practicing Sil lum tao"
"I used to have an obsession with practicing Sil lum tao. "

[kungfu cowboy]

Sad but true. At least there is hope.

[[Censored]]

I'd have to see some research on it to be sure, but I doubt that there is much applicable martial or other benefit over a certain amount of time, which is probably under an hour a session. I would think that there would be some negative effects actually, based on how the body reacts when it is overused. I think one of them is related to effects on blood pressure, or something, among others.

1 hour in YJKYM is overuse of the legs? LOL.

Is 1 hour of Chi Sao overuse of the arms?

[kungfu cowboy]

Actually, I was referring to the 4 hours of slt without coming out of the stance possibly being an overuse of the legs.

[red5angel]

That is freakin hilarious, I was laughing so hard heads were turning!!!!!!

[urban tea]

Without a strong SLT you have nothing. Doing SLT for 20 minutes builds your elbow energy and stance.

I never really understood why doing more than 20 minutes is of no use...

SLT is wc's chi kung ( standing post, jam jong...)

[urban tea]

Some of the best teachers start you off on some type of stance work.

Chen style tai chi master Chan Jing Chong makes his students do 3 variations of jam jong the first couple weeks, every class for the entire 90 minutes or so. He may walk by and tell about the importance.

He teaches yiquan the same way. He teaches hsing yi the same way. YOu start by holding a position. Next you do a few basic steps. After that you start a form.

I'll stay on the mountain.

[yuanfen]

In the current Kungfu/Qigong read Siu Yuk Man's view on the importance of devoting time to slt and chi sao.

BTW what kind of tea is urban tea? I thought I knew my teas.
Teas-ing included!!
((of course there are some junk filler articles in the issue too-
including the same old same old lin kong jing- the empty force for the empty heads!!))

[Miles Teg]

Agreed
But for a lot of types they are just movements, a reference to all the moves and where all the techniques should be positioned.
This may be why so many people would not want to spend more than 20 minutes doing it. I wouldn't either if I thought that was the purpose of it.

[fgxpanzerz]

So, are all of u who are slt experts, are u saying that everyone who does slt for atleast 20 minutes will be a kicka$$ fighter? I dont wanna hear any of that, "Martial arts isnt for fighting" chicken scratch. If the answer to yor question is, "no, not all of them are kickarse fighters," then a lot of the things posted here dont mean a thing. I know people who dont practice slt ever! And they are pretty kicka$$. MAybe I dont know what kicka$$ looks like, but the people I'm referring to are the disciples that I know. SHouldn't they be sucky since they never practice slt?

AND, what if a lot of people practice slt the wrong way? Now people are gonna ask dumb questions like, "WHo decides what's right and wrong? Who are u?" Let's say what all of u are saying about slt is correct. Now, what if a lot of peeps are doing slt wrong? Would that delete everything yor saying?

haha, I'm starting to tire myself out. later

[kj]

ROFLOL.

I think you make some good points. However, you telegraph your intentions quite a lot, and waste energy unnecessarily. Perhaps more SNT may help better control this. :D

Thanks for the grins and giggles.
- Kathy Jo

[Marshdrifter]

I tried to not respond, but I just couldn't resist. :p

fgxpanzerz
So, are all of u who are slt experts,

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm sure not. If I was an slt
expert, I perhaps wouldn't have to do slt for 20 minutes at a
time, or at least wouldn't learn something new everytime I did
it.

are u saying that everyone who does slt for atleast 20 minutes will be a kicka$$ fighter?

No. Everyone who does slt for at least 20 minutes (at a time,
not all together, but I think you knew that :) ) correctly, will
have the foundations needed to be good at Wing Chun.

I dont wanna hear any of that, "Martial arts isnt for fighting" chicken scratch.

Ok.

If the answer to yor question is, "no, not all of them are kickarse fighters," then a lot of the things posted here dont mean a thing.

It just means, that they either didn't do the slt correctly, they
didn't do slt enough, or they didn't add anything to the Wing Chun
foundation they had built.

I know people who dont practice slt ever!

Me too.

And they are pretty kicka$$.

Same here.

MAybe I dont know what kicka$$ looks like, but the people I'm referring to are the disciples that I know. SHouldn't they be sucky since they never practice slt?

It seems to me that "kicka$$" does not necessarily mean "good
at Wing Chun." "Good at Wing Chun," however, usually does
mean "kicka$$."

Keep in mind what I see as "good Wing Chun" is heavily based
on my lineage. If nobody in your lineage does slt the way I do, or
even has different ideas as to what makes up "good Wing Chun,"
you should just practice your Wing Chun, including slt, to meet
the end goals as dictated by your school.

I'm sure I didn't need to say that. :)

AND, what if a lot of people practice slt the wrong way?

Assuming that the wrong way is sufficiently different than my way,
what they get out of their slt will differ from what I get out of
mine.

Now people are gonna ask dumb questions like, "WHo decides what's right and wrong?

Your lineage. Your sifu.

Who are u?"

Some guy who listens to his Sigung, Sifu, and Sihings.

Let's say what all of u are saying about slt is correct. Now, what if a lot of peeps are doing slt wrong? Would that delete everything yor saying?

Only if it upsets the moderators sufficiently. :D

[Miles Teg]

Yeah your right, there are heaps of good fighters that dont practice SNT: Mike Tyson, Mohamid Ali, the Gracies......

If being a kick arse fighter is your only goal then why dont you do kick boxing or BJJ.
And what is doing SNT wrong? As long as your mind is guiding the techniques & you are relaxed it doesnt matter if the techniques are in the wrong order or not exactly in a specified place.

[kj]

Whoever you are, I think you are my new hero. And patient too. Nice post. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by kj
Whoever you are, I think you are my new hero. And patient too. Nice post. :)
Um... thanks...

Dang! this thing needs a "blushing" icon. Can't say I ever needed
one before... :rolleyes:

[urban tea]

A guy with a good SLT has a foundation. A guy without a good SLT will get torn apart cause of lack of stance and elbow energy.

bLAHH BLAH.

ANyways, a lot of things about kung fu cannot be discucused on forums because 2 peopel are in different levels. If everyone is on the same level or page, then talking can help. IF not , then it's just an argument about logics which cannot be understood by a 3rd party that is not on the same page.

[kungfu cowboy]

Strong legs, strong root, root of punching power.

[Enree]

Hi,

All kidding aside, I personally like to do a bit of SLT before doing wooden dummy work. For me at least, it stretches my wrist and helps me focus on doing correct, slow, and precise movements. That way, I'm stretched and ready to go whoop on that dummy. :p How long is too long? Well, whatever it takes for you to feel comphy with where you need to be. Some days I go very slow and it'd take up to 20min... and on others, it'll take me about 10-15min. Just my thoughts.

Take care,
Enree

[urban tea]

To the original poster and empty cup and others who don't believe in the 15 -20 minute SLT,

Yes you are correct. Many people are obsessed with doing SLT For long periods of time. Why? I dont know but you guys are all correct. It is not needed.

You are correct, that is it. You are correct. Yes. That is right.
What you say is correct. The mountain, yes you are right. That is correct.:o

[Roy D. Anthony]

all the people that do not do Siu Lim Tao anymore, I have a question, Did you reach a Point where your hips rock during the SLT form?

[dre_doggX]

SLT is wc's chi kung (standing post, jam jong...)

Most of Kungfu started out as Chi kung, the early ones espeacially. its in the genes you cant erase it. only hide it but still, it's there, If Wing CHun is truely a child of Shaolin then it will have Qi in the art. if it is a kungfu it will for sure.

qi and real kungfu are inseperable.

Sil lum Tao and qi is usefully.

[Miles Teg]

Empty Cup

Whats your take on mind force then?

[Miles Teg]

Ive only heard of it being called 'nim nik'.

In your experience what does chi feel like when applying a technique?

In all your examples of other styles apllying chi you only seemed to refer to powerful blows. What other ways is chi used.
I believe that enormous power can also be generated from mind power but I dont know if this is like chi or not.

[dre_doggX]

I do Chen Ta ji,

Just apply the same principles that are in Tai chi like yeilding and Chi meditation etc, to Wing Chun.

Thats what I started doing along time ago.

Sil lum tao done with Qi an yi meditation.

[whippinghand]

What makes Chen style "better suited" for fighting than Wu style? Very odd... Who do you learn from Empty Cup?

[Rolling_Hand]

Empty Cup,
--you asked me that before and I answered you who's YOUR wing chun teacher?

That's a good move in Wing Chun. You don't want to give an inch to anyone. Now, be careful - Whipping Hand's Lut Sau jik Chung.

[yuanfen]

Chen is the original style though like most taichi/taiji styles most
practitioners dont know how to use it ina martial way. Chen is a very very good style but it too has become a fad with modern wushu types and folks without good Chen lineage teaching it. But the structure and dynamics of wc and tcc are quite different- though mastery of chi flow is common to both. If one understands the role of chi more in taichi than in wc it means their achievements in wc are behind their taichi.

[Rolling_Hand]

--so you know whippy?

Not exactly, but we both are chasing the same girl - Wing Chun. - RH

--or was that other post a whole bunch of nonsense?

People usually have good reason for being defensive. Just try to do my part and be open to people's input. In other words, like Chi Sau and go with the flow, soon everything else will fall into place. - RH

[yuanfen]

There goes the neighborhood!

[Rolling_Hand]

Wing Chun 101, lesson # 1 for Whipping Hand... LOL!

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
[Interesting.... when I look at Wu Tai Chi, all I see are fighting applications.]

but the form is done slowly and many teachers don't know how to utilize it for fighting.Just because they don't know them, doesn't mean they don't exist.


There's a reason why the forms were done slow and health emphasized. Why don't you get you head out of your ego and learn something?Clearly, I'm not the one who needs to learn something here. You still haven't acknowledged the relevance of Tai Chi styles (other than Chen) as having martial application. I don't need to read a book to know that one.


maybe you should open your eyes. Because if they were open when viewing the three main styles, you would have seen that Chen has the form that is closest to fast-paced combat orientated martial art. Also read up on your tai chi history as to why yang, wu, sun, etc styles came about...All that is is information. What exactly do you understand? What exactly do you know about Tai Chi? Nothing. I have a greater understanding of Tai Chi than you, and I've not taken one class. Again, clearly, I'm not the one who needs to learn something here.

You tend to look at martial art (whichever one you happen to be discussing), from your own eyes, instead of the perspective of the art itself. Perhaps a shift in paradigm would be helpful to the development of a more global perspective, which will help you to better understand martial art.

The system is the system. It is the practitioner who lacks understanding, not the system itself.

[whippinghand]

... The voice of defensiveness.

You do yourself a great injustice, EmptyCup. You should apologize...

[Rolling_Hand]

Empty Cup to Whippinghand:
--Anyways, everytime I talk to you it gets nowhere.

Nowhere is somewhere, just like Chi Sau, sometime you can't hit or retreat but you're * there *, don't give up!!! Whippinghand is an expert in Chi Sau... I didn't say that, did I? ... LOL - RH

--You don't help me and only seek to start argument all the times.

The way I SEZ, that's the main idea of Chi Sau, no one can teach you, but it will. - RH