Sensitivity training/Sparring

[red5angel]

Ok, I have another theory, and I will post it in the general forum because I know WC is not the only art to train sensitivity.

Let me first ask you this...Is sparring necessary to become a good fighter?
The only variable I want to remove from sparring is getting tougher, this can be done in other ways, sometimes it is genetic, and limited to genetics.
So barring that, does sparirng do you any good?
The reason I ask is this- Most of the fights I have seen, the first shot is a surprise, it doesnt always get through but it seems more often to be unexpected. Now, if you train sensitivity, and your opponent makes contact in some way, you can then get control, hopefully. That is the important moment in most fights IMHO, not the first blow, but right after it. not only that but sparring in generl, we MA people tend to spar against trained opponents.
If I start a formal challenge with another MA person, then things will probably not look choreographed but may look cleaner then two guys just duking it out on the streets. If one guy is trained and the other isnt, gaining control is easier, most of the time. Do you need to spar to get this sort of control?

[Shaolindynasty]

yes it's nessacary. Sparring will teach you how to use the sensitvty in a situation where someone is trying to beat you up. Sparring if done right can teach sensitivity on it's own. It's the next step beyond push or sticky hands to gain a higher level of sensitivity to your opponent.

[Ryu]

You have to spar. At least occasionally. You just can't NOT test yourself on a resisting opponent. It's a must because it teaches you how you thrive under pressure, how your mechanics are under pressure, if you get "tunnel vision" or not, if you freeze up, turn away when someone hits you, etc. Sparring gives you the feeling of having to change your tactics in the heat of a confrontation. There's surprise, and the fear of defeat. So yes, in this sense I think its important.
However I also believe that other things are important and that sparring all the time while doing nothing else is not the best way either. Football players scrimage much less than they do working on their drills, mechanics, etc.
I don't spar all the time myself. I work on lots of things from shadowboxing to grappling dummy drills to weightlifting.
But I don't go without sparring. It gives you a false sense of yourself I think.
Some people spar once every couple weeks and are great fighters, others spar 3 times a week and are great fighters. But regardless, sparring is part of the curriculum.

Ryu

[red5angel]

Do you think it is necessary to be a good fighter? the reason I asked this is because there are hundreds of things that you can do to make yourself a good fighter. Like any other athlete, there are so many ways to train that you could never train them all. You have to pick a few.

[Ryu]

I personally think it's necessary (at least once in a while) to be a good fighter, yes.
The reason is because it takes in all the "drilling and training" you have done and makes it work in an environment that resists and relates to reality. At least in some way.
Now that doesn't always mean balls out full contact NHB either ;) You can spar many ways. You can have a guy spar while you can only use one technique, you can spar lightly, moderately, etc. You can kind of "tempo grapple" at times, etc. All of it should work up to harder sparring however, but you don't have to kill yourself to be ready to defend yourself. For instance, I can use a lot of visualization and imagination with my grappling drills with a wrestling dummy, and these help me out a great deal. In fact you can actually get close to a "sparring" atmoshpere in terms of power, quickness, strategy, etc. However the thing doesn't fight back :rolleyes: So I have to occasionally test out what I'm working on with live opponents. It doesn't have to be all the time, but it does need to happen.

Ryu

[Ford Prefect]

Yes. Training sensitivity with somebody else who is also training sensitivity is a lot different from handling an angry, aggressive individual who is trying to take your head off.

[Shooter]

Remote sensitivity is based on intuitive prompters (body language, verbal tone and inflection, positional and spacial references) that are developed to some degree from the experience of sparring, but the greater depth of one's sensitivity is based on listening and awareness.

The most important moment in a fight is before it starts.

Be unorthodox and spontaneous. Think like a predator instead of reactive prey. Approaching training with the focus of being reactive is overlooking the insights of what a predator uses to target their victim, and the predator's methods of getting close enough to spring their attack.

sparring doesn't impart much in the way of engaging the predator's mind. Scenario and replication drills are a tool to gaining better understanding of what it is to be "on the hunt" when you're at the mall, in a restaurant, other public places, where you can see the possibilities that a predator might exploit.

Sensitivity training goes in lots of different directions and peels back the many layers of awareness that we posses when we allow ourselves to be creatures of nature instead of creatures who govern themselves according to societal conventions and habit.

;)

[Marshdrifter]

Is sparring necessary?

After a point, I think it is. You need to have the basics down first,
otherwise you'll start developing bad habits and revert to what
you already think sparring should be.

I agree that you should practice working on a resisting opponent.
Often, chi sao with a person who hasn't learned to relax enough
will provide an opportunity towards this.

It is also important (perhaps more important) to spar with
someone who studies another style.

Again, this is all after the person has gained a decent level of
experience.

"Do you think it is necessary to be a good fighter?"

By this, do you mean "Do I think sparring is necessary to be a
good fighter?" or "Do I think it should be necessary for a martial
artist to be a good fighter?"

For the former, I'd say yes. There are a ton of other drills that
help your fighting ability, but sparring should probably be the
testing ground to see if the theory and training hold up. This,
again, emphasizes it as an advanced drill.

For the latter, I'd say yes. There are a lot of different reasons to
take a martial art. I'm in it for the self-improvement factor.
But, even if you're in it for the "art" of it all, it's still a martial
art. If you can't be a good fighter, there's something wrong. Keep
in mind that there is often a good length of time before a martial
artist can be a good fighter using his or her art. Also, it's very
possible to be a good fighter without being good at a martial art.

[The GREat Ro0ster]

in my opinion sparring is nessecery to gain any type of skill in a fight, you can drill and drill when you know whats coming and you and your partner are trying to get the particular drill down, testing it out means you have to spar to see if it works for you, different styles have a ton of different drills and not all of them will work for you, some are better and what not. so yes i think sparring is nessecery

[red5angel]

Those are very good points marshdrifter. I think where I am coming from is, before you step into the ring/street/mat, do you think sparring gives you an edge over someone who hasnt?
To determine whether a system works, then I agree, you must test it in combat, that is its purpose. But, if you have a well defined system, and you practice, and train, do you need to spar to be effective. I guess maybe I am talking from the street level type of thing. Coming across a random attacker in the street, not for sport, or a challenge match.



"By this, do you mean "Do I think sparring is necessary to be a
good fighter?" or "Do I think it should be necessary for a martial
artist to be a good fighter?"

For the former, I'd say yes. There are a ton of other drills that
help your fighting ability, but sparring should probably be the
testing ground to see if the theory and training hold up. This,
again, emphasizes it as an advanced drill.

For the latter, I'd say yes. There are a lot of different reasons to
take a martial art. I'm in it for the self-improvement factor.
But, even if you're in it for the "art" of it all, it's still a martial
art. If you can't be a good fighter, there's something wrong. Keep
in mind that there is often a good length of time before a martial
artist can be a good fighter using his or her art. Also, it's very
possible to be a good fighter without being good at a martial art.

[guohuen]

Shooter, that was spot on!

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by red5angel
I think where I am coming from is, before you step into the ring/street/mat, do you think sparring gives you an edge over someone who hasnt?


All else being equal, yes.

All the non-sparring stuff is all the tools you'll need, but you
should, occasionally at least, test out those tools to make sure
you're utilizing them correctly.

That said, a lot of the non-sparring stuff will help even if you
don't spar.

IMO, you really need both. The basics, by far, are more important,
but you should spar occasionally. I think Ryu made a good point
about it not having to be all out. Certainly, there can be a decent
amount of crossover with a lot of the non-ritualized two man
drills (such as chi sao).

[DragonzRage]

Going back to something bruce lee once said, there is only one way to learn how to swim and that's by jumping in the water. I've been down many MA paths in my life...from traditional kung fu to non traditional kung fu, to grappling styles, muay thai kickboxing, blah blah blah. Through these experiences i have come to see that the methods that have truly made a difference in my real fighting ability were the ones that required regular realistic sparring and trained techniques that are practically applicable in the sparring. All the other training i've had has helped me in developing ideas, attributes and also given me a few neat little tricks that i wouldn't have known otherwise. But without the functional sparring/fighting foundation, it just becomes an exercise in theoretical tripe and mental masturbation.

[fa_jing]

You may be studying a system that is battle tested. But, YOU have not battle tested it. How are you going to know what works best for you if you don't spar? I assume you do chi sao. That's fine for testing the contact stage. However, in a real or realistic confrontation no one is going to walk up to you and make contact with there arms. You'd be surprised how many different ways of fighting there are. You need to expose yourself to different possiblities, and the best experimental environment is controlled sparring. Lastly, do you know what it's like to take a hit? Do you know where the power comes from when your completely exhausted? This is a scenario you might be in if someone tosses you hard to the ground, even if you get back up you might have the wind knocked out of you. I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but I know that certain Wing Chun schools don't do free-sparring, to me it's bordering on hocus-pocus. You have to develop a few basic techniques that are most reliable for that confrontation. Then, you can add or delete techniques as you see fit.
-FJ

[Shooter]

guohuen, thanks for noticing. ;)

[Sharky]

omg it is so vital. i am only now beign allowed (hopefully next lesson) to properly go at it, i mean properly in boxing. he said it to these other guys and i was standing with em so hopefully i am included too?:) these other guys are really good, and they are like 15 stone etc and hit like mules, i am much faster but i doubt i could handle some of their punches! i am still new to it though, and i don't want to seem ****y etc so i will wait till i'm told i can spar.

it trains, hell, pretty much everything, apart from i guess the "street" aspects of stuff. but it is possible to train that. pad up, and make a moc steet scenario , and go at it.

you will learn that it is nearly impossible to block, so make sure you "hit first, and hit f*cking hard" - geoff thompson

cheers

Edd