what makes a BAD martial artist

[flem]

it's pretty easy to repeat all the enlightened concepts about ourselves and those we admire, but i think today, with the ease there is in learning MA, that there are quite a few MAists that are posers, those who come off as somebody, but are in reality wolves in sheeps clothing.
most people are content in saying that one is a good martial arist because they move well, have a strong following, or can kick butt. but if the reasons given as to what a good one is are true then i think there are alot more posers than the real thing.

[SaMantis]

There probably are many more posers than the real thing. So many people have capitalized on CMA since the early 70s, and many of them had only rudimentary karate skills (forget about kung fu!) My hope is that the internet can help steer people into solid MA schools and away from the "get your Kung-fu-Blackbelt in just 30 days" people.

My definition of a "good martial artist" has changed since the days before I began studying seriously.

One of the things I've learned since starting CMA is that there is a difference between a martial artist and a fighter. That there's more to martial arts than just looking cool, although that isn't all bad. :) I attribute a lot of that awareness to the examples set at Wah Lum, but I've seen it demonstrated by many other schools/students/sifus.

What makes a bad MA? well, IMO, it can be anything dishonorable/unethical, impolite or just plain mean. Bullying weaker people just because you can; running around yelling "our school is cool, your school sucks!" is childish. Maybe the worst is people lying about their lineage or inventing a new style and trying to pass it off as "ancient." (Chung Moo Doe?) Or acting this way outside of your school, whether it's fudging a few accounting figures or cheating on an exam.

[flem]

samantis

i am in complete ageement, but i have bad news for you. your last paragraph describes people right under your nose. i realize that everyone has shortcomings, but i think we would both agree that the better person tries to recognize and correct faults, but it is the devious natured who is also skilled at covering their own faults. when i was 1st beginning MA, and really ever since, i have read alot with an emphasis on philosophy. the older books always said that those intent on using the art for the wrong purposes were generally weeded out because it took too long to gain any real proficiency, but that is sadly no longer the case.

[SaMantis]

flem,

I can't defend everyone who's ever been through WL. There are people in every system who don't live up to the ideals of the martial artist.

IMO, it's OK to say one's school is the best; after all you're a student there. It's just impolite to slam other schools (not saying that you are, just saying that some people on the forum do -- e.g., the general KF forum is pretty nuts).

As far as people lying about lineage -- when you say there are people right under my nose being "devious" -- I hope you weren't insinuating that WL is lying about its lineage. I'm slow to anger but others are not, they might not take kindly to those words.

[draco]

There is neither good nor bad MA.

Who are we to judge another?

We strive to maintain perfect balance between what we percieve is good and bad. It is a constant battle for me, whatever I myself see as good and bad.

[Stacey]

DRACO, i'VE GOT IT....











fight

[urban tea]

A few qualities of a bad KUNG FU PRACTIONER are :
1. Stiff and tense, using too much power
2. Does forms all day and not enough fighting. When I say fighting I don't just mean 2 man forms. I mean live sparring.

This one guy once emailed me asking me how many forms I know. I told him 10. He said that he knows 80 .

I asked him if he practices them everyday. He said he doesn't. I asked him why doesn't he get his sifu to teach fighting. He said he already knew how to fight from TKD. BUT TKD is tense and stiff. (#1 quality above)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Well, I don't get as deep as you guys.

Kung Fu means hard work. If you put in the time it will show. If you don't it will also show. Bad kung fu is the stereotypical overweight karate black belt with his overhanging belly barking orders to students to get them to do the things he should be doing himself.

Having numerous virtueous traits would be great but the reality is many assasins were good kung fu practitioners.

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When thrust into the fire, heated and hammered, iron ore screams "why must I endure this pain?!?!" When it emerges as a fine steel sword it knows better!!!!

[yu shan]

Urban Tea
I would rather know 10 forms(two-person,applications)etc. Then 80 forms of dancing. Everything leads up to live sparring. But you must start out with BASICS,drills,forms-two person drills, then on to fighting,then back to basics,etc! Don`t forget conditioning!!!

Hua Lin
Learn kindness,learn fellowship,learn Gong fu,don`t think assasins went by this creed. I agree with the assasins(escorts) way of thinking. This philosophy relates very much to what I do. Thanks to Pong Lai.

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

ah flem, don't you know that the longest bloodiest wars are fought by those who can't accept that others may believe philosophies contrary to their own.

no one has attacked your philosophy (i merely attack your personal integrity), why do you continue to attack others'?

accept it and move on.

[Frogman]

Being a good MA-est is no different then being a good person. We all know what is good and what is bad. I believe from training one should become more familiar with themselves and be able to see the dark and the light with in and know how to balance the two. From a training stand point, if you need some one to stand over you and push you to do your forms or even basics then….well you know. I train at least twice a week on my own, I push myself mostly because I enjoy it so much. Also my schedule does not afford me the time to make it to class as much as I would like. So to keep up I have to do it on my own. As for “Chung Moo Doo” and other less then credible schools, I would not say the students are less than good MA-ests even though the school has them over a barrel. It what’s on the inside. Some have it some pretend to have it and other have no idea about it. Many of my Br & Sis come to class five minutes before it starts and sit around and chat. The serious have been sweating for an hour.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by yu shan


Hua Lin
Learn kindness,learn fellowship,learn Gong fu,don`t think assasins went by this creed. I agree with the assasins(escorts) way of thinking. This philosophy relates very much to what I do. Thanks to Pong Lai.

Uhh Yu Shan mi amigo, I would like to correct that statement if I may. Escorts are bodyguards not assasins.It is their jobs to protect the lives of people although it means to take the life of another.Assasins are just paid to kill.There is a difference.Just thought you should know.:cool:

Correct me if I'm wrong, I probably read the post incorretly.

[SaMantis]

Frogman,
Good point about CMD'ers. Who's to say there aren't good MA-ists among them? I just hope they find an art that can showcase their skill for less money. :)

yu shan,
gotta agree with NM on escorts not being assassins. I think most escorts' attitude was something like, 'I'll protect the cargo I was hired to protect, and if I'm attacked I'll kill without mercy.'

Which fell somewhat along the lines of the Shaolin saying (can't remember the exact quotes), that you should hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill, but if you have to kill someone -- to protect yourself or another -- make it quick and merciless.

Sam

[PaulLin]

SaMantis,

I think in your statement, you wouldn't be killing anyone. Protecting yourself and the good people around you is mandatory. You are just doing your honorable job. If one dare to cross that line, he will kill himself by his own choice of action, and you are just being yourself and do the job as you are supposed to complete. If some one jumped into a firepit, did the fire killed him or he killed himself?

That is what I thought form your words of Shaolin wisdom.

[yu shan]

NorthernMantis and SaMantis
True, I stand corrected.

[SaMantis]

PaulLin,

I like your observation. If the thief knows that crossing the line will get him killed by the escorts, then he is killing himself by crossing that line.

yu shan,

That's cool, no biggie. I was thinking, the assassins vs. escorts debate might make a neat kung fu movie. Lots of fight scenes, with both sides arguing the nature of the universe while swords flash around them. :D

Sam

[yu shan]

SaMantis
Assassins vs Escorts, just the thought should send Hong Kong movie direcs. running.
What makes a bad MA? The single thing I personally have seen (predominately n korean arts etc) is ego! KFO is Full of High Quality Gong fu people, I am humbled daily, yet inspired. What do my fellow MA think of" too much" ego in their field?
Thank you.

[Ye Gor]

Ego is a funny (not 'ha-ha') kind of thing.
We all have it. Is it not something like 'self-importance'.
MA is about fighting (when all is said is done). How do you face a challange without some help from your ego? And when it comes to a fight which is morally right (like defending a child), is there not righteous anger and does it not give you strength? It makes your ego strong and... morally just.

I think MA training naturally works in strengthen the ego. Now, you may control it and down play it, secure in your knowledge of 'I could kick that guy's **s... but I'll just let it slide'.

That is: we can be humble towards a si-hing, but not so humble (although we hide it) towards the common people on the street.


I think that is another reason that meditation is so important. Who can say that they meditate even for 10 minutes every day (and bai fut sau is not meditation)? I have tried it. It was hard. I didn't last more than 2 weeks. And that was years ago.

Being ego-free and controlling the ego are two different things. Those people you speak of, yu shan, they are just silly people, they get a kick out of feeling great about themselves... well, what can you do?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ye Gor:

What I do? I feel sorry for so many pathetic losers on this forum like those who try to ascend to a higher level of spirtual awareness by meditating on the virtues of kung fu.

we don't have to be humble towards si hing, after all si hing - if i get the rankings correctly is just someone who's been paying fees for a longer time then you do. what more is there to it?

But of course on the topic of ego, I am Ego Extrodinaire!

[PaulLin]

To what I have known, ego exist when one knows their own existance. The part that makes the harm is when one taking/destroy form the other and do not benefit the whole society or humankind.

A good master should apply the truth. And the truth is that all human are not perfect. So to make students and tudis obey all the time to master no matter what is not considered a good rule to me. Chinese do that in the past is because at the time, we use Martial Arts skill as a method of surviving. We needed to controll the tudis to survive. But now since the whole world is different by technology, Martial Arts are serving different purpose. they should be a tool to discover the wisdom of life, bridge the relationship among people, and harmonize the body, chi, mind, and spirit. I do not see any usage of controling students like it was used to in the past other than survive as a money-earning-organization.

So I suggest that Master should lay out the truth, and if there are case of the Master don't fit the truth, the students should regards to the truth instead of the Master. And a good MA should fit the truth more in compare to any other students.

And the truth will constantly be add on new discovers. If in Chinese Martial Arts, a universal truth is not established, there will be no chance to take back the credits that others(like taekwando, judo, and karate...etc.) have taken form Chinese MAs.

[Frogman]

Ego
We all have it some stronger then others. Do you control your ego or does it control you? I have notice that some people about a year to a year and a half in can become very ****y. I will be the first to say that I went through this phase. I felt stronger faster and more confident then ever and it showed. Of course, I was 10 years younger. Ego can be a strong tool if you control it, I think some of the best things I get out of my training is not fighting kicking and punching but how I deal with people in general. Working for corporate America, one needs to know when to be humble and when to be aggressive. The important thing is to know when to switch from one to the other and not miss a beet. A strong ego is good, but being egotistical can do as much damage to the practitioner as it can to the next man. MA may be based on fighting but that does not mean that is how you have to use it.

This is the type of conversation I like about this forum. Rock On!!:cool:

[EARTH DRAGON]

Excellent post filled with wise words. It too bad that we have to spend years of our life before we know the truth.

When one does not seek one does not find. But it is up to our teachers to allow us to experience this for ourselves, and not shroud us in lies so that we can no longer see the truth.