question on the centerline

[red5angel]

I am wondering if your centerline should ever really be crossed by an 'attack' or 'defense' that you initiate?

[yenhoi]

what do you mean crossed?

If you attack not on the centerline then your attack will fall on one side or the other.

Do you mean attacking with say your right hand to your opponents left shoulder? Unless you dont move your waist for some reason, where-ever you attack will be on the ( your ) centerline.

Is this a question about your structure when attacking or defending?

[Highlander]

Yes. Look at Pak Sao in SLT. It crosses the centerline.

[rubthebuddha]

isn't that pak sau meant more as a way to slap or guide a hand off your wedge, then immediately returning to wu sau for a following strike?

[Highlander]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
isn't that pak sau meant more as a way to slap or guide a hand off your wedge, then immediately returning to wu sau for a following strike?

That is one interpretation, but even so, isn't slapping or guiding a hand off the wedge a defensive move that you initiate? Maybe I didn't understand the original question.

[hunt1]

Perhaps SLT shows concepts.Perhaps the pak sau does not cross the center.Maybe it is used in conjuction with the body and footwork and you change your centerline when used.Maybe the line it follows is from outside your centerline to the opponents centerline.Does enery ever go in any direction other than at the opponents center?

[red5angel]

I wanted to leave the question a little open to see what the responses were. You guys were all pretty close to what I was asking.
Yenhoi, what you said is basically what I meant. I have noticed that in most applications, it seems that when your hand/punch/block/whatever gets to your centerline, you either stop or turn.
Highlander, good point, in SLT it does but when i see it demonstrated or used it always seems to be in conjunction with a turn.
I am a newbie mind you, so I am just trying to feel out the whole center line idea. Is it a Wing Chun no no to cross it with your own offenses/defenses?

[Roy D. Anthony]

Yin & yang, sometimes you have to cross your centerline in order to protect it.

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by red5angel
I am wondering if your centerline should ever really be crossed by an 'attack' or 'defense' that you initiate?

Short Answer:

attack: no
defend: maybe

Naturally, it depends upon the situation (like all things in Wing
Chun), but generally, you should never cross your own centerline
when attacking, at least with a punch. You shouldn't really have
to. If you're shoulders are properly squared, a punch down the
centerline should be more structurally sound than a punch not
along the centerline. In defense, it is sometimes good to cross
the centerline, but one should only do so if the opponent won't
be able to capitalize on it.

[yuanfen]

A shorter answer: You CONTROL the centerline-attack or defense.
You hands can cross the center line- they do even in the SLT-
Note:
kao, gan, pak, reverse jut, fan(fak to some) etc....

[whippinghand]

Taking it back to the basics. That's like slapping someone in the face with their own tan sau.

[CanadianBadAss]

It doesn't matter. Cross it or not cross it, it shouldn't make a diffrence, do what you need too. Any movment you do in WC, even the a pac sao that crosses your center, you still focuss and forword energy/intent and what not all towords the center.

[yuanfen]

Taking it back to the basics. That's like slapping someone in the face with their own tan sau.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Well- many questions are made out to be more complicated than they really are. Spending time on learning the slt in depth
provides a veritable fountain of information and insight, including the center line and its crossings and controls.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by CanadianBadAss
It doesn't matter. Cross it or not cross it, it shouldn't make a diffrence, do what you need too. Any movment you do in WC, even the a pac sao that crosses your center, you still focuss and forword energy/intent and what not all towords the center. What exactly are you focusing on the centre?

[CanadianBadAss]

uhhh.... everything.

[Nichiren]

Why not use the pak with some forward intention? When I use the pak as in SLT I'm most often in the sh!t and have lost my center...

[Frank Exchange]

In my opinion, you cant do pak sao properly WITHOUT forward intention.

The point of pak sao, like that of gong and bong, is to control both of the opponents arms with one of yours, so you can immediately hit with your other hand.

For example, if your opponent is punching with his right hand, and you pak with your right, your pak sao must not only contact his punching arm, but also control his left arm. If you miss his left arm, then he will hit with that. The pak has to go forward as well as sideways in order to contact the left arm with your pak arm.

With regards to the centreline, the hand may cross it, but the elbow does not. This is obvious from SLT.

[Nichiren]

Frank Exchange: I agree with the forward intent.


With regards to the centreline, the hand may cross it, but the elbow does not. This is obvious from SLT.

I tried to cross the centerline with the elbow just now but it was impossible for me. I am just to rigid (or maybe to muscular)... ;)

/Peace

[AndrewP]

I think you are pakking the other person's triangle out of the way while staying within your traingle.

[Frank Exchange]

>>I tried to cross the centerline with the elbow just now but it was impossible for me. I am just to rigid (or maybe to muscular)... <<


They dont call me ol' "liquid bones" Frank for nothing... :)

However, if you have turned too far, when bonging, or paking, for example, then your elbow may in fact cross the centreline connecting you and your opponent. Then you would be in trouble, and need to regain the line, using your favourite tool from Biu Jee, or some smart footwork.

Or in my case, fearfully yelling "Chrrist!" and leaping back awkwardly. :)

On a bad day, of course.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Has anyone considered the uncrossing punch in Chum Kiu after the 3rd lan sao? What about the clearing elbow hands in Biu Jee?

[Nichiren]

Frank: You got me there. I must have f.a.r.t.beans for brains some times. Of course you can cross the centerline with the elbow if you e.g. turn... :rolleyes:

Roy: Sorry man, haven't begun on the Bil Jee form yet.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by Frank Exchange
In my opinion, you cant do pak sao properly WITHOUT forward intention. Forward intention is not the only way.


The point of pak sao, like that of gong and bong, is to control both of the opponents arms with one of yours, so you can immediately hit with your other hand. It's much more than that.

[S.Teebas]

Forward intention is not the only way.

Not sure if i read you correctly, but are you saying that forward intention is not always needed?

What is this other way your speak of?

[yuanfen]

-------------------------------------------
Hardly a civil statement. Why not disagree or ignore? A much more civil response?
Sometimes a terse statement gives you an opportunity for thought. Isnt it a overstatement to always use the shibboleth of forward energy in wing chun discussions? Sometimes there is run fu. And sometimes action/reaction, yin/yang for every motion
there is an opposite motion!

[vingtsunstudent]

whether or not you agree with frank at least he explains what he is putting foward, so i have to agree with him in that if you wish to disagree(which is fine) then you should offer more of an answer.(ie put up or shut up)
i am presuming we are all adults who share a common love of wing chun & unfortunately answer like that which whippy provides do nothing to further the conversation or offer any insight in to his thoughts of wing chun.
sorry yuan fen if you think that they are thought provoking but to me they show nothing more than a rude attitude, a lack of respect to the other posters who are trying to carry on a conversation & leed me to think that he sometimes thinks that he is the be all & end all of wing chun knowledge.
he odviously has knowledge & it is a shame he continues to post in this way.
also yuan fen, are you & him the same lineage or boy friend & girl friend as you seem to like sticking up for him & vice versa.
vts

[yuanfen]

also yuan fen, are you & him the same lineage or boy friend & girl friend as you seem to like sticking up for him & vice versa.
vts
------------------------------------------------
My my VTS are you on some stimulant(again)- in making comments such as above? I just probably may be more tolerant of diverse styles of expression than many people.Nature of my background. BTW I dont ask you for your gender/race/religion whatever it is or your gender preferences- do I? I dont get turned off(or auto reflexive) by various verbose posts including yours and if you follow other forums i have "taken up" for all sorts of persons and issues in my time.Any more questions?

[whippinghand]

posted by vintsunstudent
unfortunately answer like that which whippy provides do nothing to further the conversation or offer any insight in to his thoughts of wing chun.
Had I not posted what I did, yuanfen probably would not have made his post in response. It's unfortunate that most of you are so blinded by your defensiveness(Frank Exchange, the perfect example). I can only imagine what your Wing Chun is like.

[vingtsunstudent]

hee hee
you pair are starting to take all the fun out of this.
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

lighten up
you pair should know i like having fun with ya.
although it does seem that your both getting a bit defensive.
luv & kisses
vts

[kj]

It's unfortunate that most of you are so blinded by your defensiveness(Frank Exchange, the perfect example). I can only imagine what your Wing Chun is like.

<sigh> :(

Dear Whipping Hand,

I had intended to send this privately, but note that your profile is not set to receive emails. My apologies for the need to post it here.

In that you have participated on this board for some time, it seems you find something of value to retain your interest and contributions. Despite the tone of your posts, you seem, to me, intelligent and capable, and at times insightful. Considering your gifts, I fail to understand the continued need for confrontational tone and ad hominem attacks on other members.

Obviously you can and will do as you wish, and in whatever tone or manner you choose, save for periodic inconvenience to the moderators. But I retain the notion that you are capable of something more constructive. It has nothing to do with how good or bad anyone else's Wing Chun is, nor is it about their understanding or their skills in expression. It is only about who you choose to be and how you elect to represent yourself.

Sincerely wishing the best for you.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Rolling_Hand]

Hi Kj,

It's nice to be surrounded by people who support you. But are they telling you what you need to hear? Sometimes an opponent maintains an advantage by forcing you to justify your actions.

Imho, WH stop to explain himself, and this person's influence weakens. In other words, there is no clear-cut situation. Just maybe there's more to things than meets the eye.

Regards
RH

[Frank Exchange]

Defensive? Moi?

What is wrong with asking you to elaborate? My tone was rude as I had finally lost patience with your tiresome inability to explain what you mean by your terse comments.

I have on many occaisons asked you exactly what you mean by certain comments, yet you never reply. And I have many times ignored your rudeness, in the hope that in the fullness of time you would develop a more mature attitude towards the sharing of knowledge on a forum such as this.

It is now obvious, as I should have realised a long time ago, that you never will. So, you will be ignored.

Since, without explanations, your cryptic contributions amount to exactly nothing, I will have lost exactly nothing. :)

[vt108]

I started to write on the forum few weeks ago but I read posts for a long time (maybe a year or more). I was surprised why do you all talk to this ignorant WhippingHand. Sometimes it is very funny to read those pathetic posts he writes and your very funny answers. But he showed to all of us he doesn't understand irony in your posts and that you laugh at him. So, the best thing will be ignore his posts until he start to write something usefull for us.
I'm almost sure Whipping Hand (or his good friend yuanfen) will write something interesting to respond and I'm sure it will be very intelligent message :)

[kj]

Thank you for your reply. I understand your point quite clearly. I maintain, however, that it is possible for an intelligent and capable individual to elect civil discourse even when in sound disagreement, or when attempting to be instructive or brief.

Again, thank you for your considered thoughts and exceptions, as well as your appropriate manner of presenting them.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Rolling_Hand]

Do you remember eSAN?

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

All,
I would just like to take a moment to point out that I will not tolerate the usage of profanity laden comments or responses on this message board. That includes posts which the auto censor feels the need to replace profane language with ****, since I don't belive that anyone on here can't fill in the blanks themselves and figure out what the intended statement was. This also includes any post that repeats the profane statement as part of a reply. And this goes double for any post that is intentionally directed at a specific person. I know we can all get a little aggrevated sometimes, and that discussions can become somewhat heated. In those instances, I recommend you go punch your wall bag, curse at your dummy, or go run a lap, I don't really care what you do, but don't start cursing on here, it's still not appropriate. I am 100% certain that ALL members of this forum can maintain a minimum level of civility throughout our conversations.

I would like to remind all that this forum exists for the sharing of information, and that not everyone wishes to share to the same extent. If someone is bugging you, we have an ignore feature now, I suggest you utilize it. I would also like to recomend that anyone who does not have an email address listed in their profile, should do so as it would allow alot of these sorts of discussions to take place off line. Don't want to use your main email for fear of "personal discovery"? Try hotmail or yahoo mail, I'm sure you're all perfectly capable of creating an anonymous account for yourself there.

In order to all people to gain a nice fresh start, this thread is no closed.