Does Chi play a roll in self defence?

[logic]

I was at a friend of a friends house.
It was a semi party, only about 8 or 9 people.
You know, a get together.

Anyway
The big guy comes up. Says some sh!t. So you know M.A...
I say what of it. bada boom, bada bing, it's over,and I did some kinda move I really don't remember, but he's crawling and coughing on the ground.

Because my reflexes took charge and acted without me thinking about it, and also being relaxed.

Does my chi help me focus on fights?
and does chi really have anything to do with this?
I started breathing deep (taking deep breathes) right when all this began.
Or is it all just training??

Does Chi play any roll in this at all?

[Black Jack]

I don't believe in chi, so my answer would be no, everybody is always looking for the magic bean.

[Xebsball]

Yes it plays a roll.

Chi kung is all about relaxing, breathing correctly and allowing the chi to flow in the most natural and unblocked way. It teaches you self control among other things.

There also kinda like your chi memorized a path by doing forms and patterns so it (or you - becouse chi is your life force) move automaticly depending on the situation. I think this is also called muscle memory from a different point of view.

Another way to see the whole thing is like this: what some may call chi flow in this situation others may call adrenaline, simple.

[Sharky]

chi just means energy.

[Tinman]

Oh my God, how could any of you believe in chi.What a freaken myth.
Let me wake you up Logic.Yes, it's all just training.
Don't waste your time with this nonsense.
Practice makes perfect!!
Study Karate,--Direct and to the point!

[red_fists]

Hey tinman.

By training we learn to use "Chi" and out Body to maximum effect.

You can't live or breath without "Chi".
Maybe ask your Sifu about an explanation what "Chi" really is, rather than listen to fairy tales.

As to the topic:
Yes, Chi was definately involved and it shows that your training and Chi-Control worked well.

[Xebsball]

This post originally had offensive comments towards Tinman but i decided to removed them.

Do you know why you do kiai in karate?

In chinese martial arts = chi
In japanese martial arts = ki

[red_fists]

Tinman.

All MA to a certain degree use Chi/Qi/Ki.

Yep, it is not just confined to the internal Arts, Aikido, Taijutsu, Aiki-jutsu, Daito-Ryu and the range of other MA.

The internal/external split is only about 50yrs old.

Also in Kara-Te you got San-Chin Kata, which is wha??.
Let me guess, a form of Qi-Gong that uses Chi/Ki.

Or how about standing in Ma-Bu(Horse) stance and punching forward with both fist while having angry Eyes.

Reminds a lot of one of the exercises in "8 Brocade Silk"

Qi-Gong in Japanese is called Ki-Ko and Japanese MA meditation & visualisation methods also rely heavily on Chi/Qi/Ki.

Remember the history of Kara-Te::
Chuan-Fa(Kempo) --> To-Te --> Kara-Te.

Some Kara-Te styles are still very close to their Chuan-Fa origin.

Anyhuh Seeya.

[Shooter]

It's OK if people don't "believe in" bio-electric, bio-chemical, respiratory, circulatory, and neuromuscular function! Not to mention all the other myths which abound on the...nevermind...

HA! :p

[Black Jack]

:o How boring

I never stated I don't believe in biology, dont put words in my mouth because of your own eastern viewpoint, I just dont believe in bull****, call it what you will but I am not going to play the Yoda game with you.

But if thats your bag fine, one mans garabage is anothers treasure.

[Xebsball]

I challenge you BJ!!!

[red_fists]

Xebsball.

Lets first here what his "bull****" is.

I found that there seem to be 2 Books written on "Chi/Qi/Ki".

1.) Used by long time practicioners in the Art, who either say it is nothing special.

2.) The Book used by some frauds that sell Chi/Qi/Ki as the 1 Magik-solution to end all problems.

Said that "Empty Force/Kong Jing" is not Chi perse, but is supposed to utilise it. AFAIK.
Same with Iron shirt, Golden Vest, etc.

So it depends which Book he read and is likely to ssiten to.

I as a practicioner of the internal Arts know that you can't explain Chi to somebody else, the Person has to feel it himself and that only happens with training and an open mind.

But most of the people claiming it doesn't exist either:
1.) Are not willing to even listen to a proper explanation.
2.) Or are to scared to try some exercises in case they are wrong.
3.)Even if they tried it most of them would give up after about 5 minutes claiming a "no result".

So BJ which one are you??

[TIger Hand]

red_fists-

I think he is "Non of the above", or maybe "all of the above" plus-

I think he is the guy that is stuck on Newtons laws of physics when, the rest of the scientific world has moved onto the Quantum world.

[fightfan]

"The big guy comes up. Says some sh!t. So you know M.A...
I say what of it. bada boom, bada bing, it's over,and I did some kinda move I really don't remember, but he's crawling and coughing on the ground. "

lol
:p

[Shooter]

Black Jack, eastern viewpoint?...Yoda game? What are you talking about? :)

Chi just means "vital energy"...nothing more, nothing less. You were the one who said you don't believe in it.

[Black Jack]

Shooter, I don't believe in chi, I believe in biomechanics and biology in relation to both combat and health, so if that is what you are in reference to then we can talk about that, but not the mystical crap which most think chi is and how it can be applied to save ones ass, on the offhand I did not mean my post to you to sound so confrotational as from what I have heard is that you train and work hard, I am a little worked up on a Kung Fu/QiQong Magazine article I read which I will be posting about soon, as you will see it is related and it will address some of my points.

As for the rest of you guys:rolleyes:

Keep fooling yourselfs, keep playing games and daydreaming that you are David Carradine, about how your chi/internal energy will be your magic pill and protect you in a serious street confrontation when a drugged out thug decides to take you out for you wallet or rape your wife, dream about your empty force bull****, iron gonad training and your one touch dim mak, I pity you and the suckers you teach greatly if you really think those things are going to come through for you.

Who needs to spar, learn enviromental protection skills and train on a realistic level when you have empty force, haha, jesus christ.

The question in the post was about "chi" and its relation to self defense. If we are talking internal health...aka excerisce like yoga or mediation fine... but for close combat skills it is IMHO complete and utter bull****.

I guess I just don't have the open mind needed for such training, but thats ok-dokey for me.

1. Proper explanations do not mean anything, proper explanations are often proper only to those who are stating them.

2. Scared!!!???? I don't need to waste my time and energy on above stated bs, I get my dose of fantasy from watching Star Trek reruns but even if I did waste my training time, you just stated that whatever I did it would not be enough anyway.

Can we say circular argument.

[Braden]

BJ - qigong definitely provides some very positive martial benefits. Although this doesn't necessarily invalidate anything you said. And it certainly doesn't VALIDATE any of the wierd ideas about chi you see here, or in the pages of your local magazine. ;)

[Shooter]

Black Jack, once again, fair enough. Sorry I made fun, but there's an intangible quality to nature's energy which exists in lots of different forms outside of our skin. The relationship we as humans have with those forms of energy is the jumping off point for lots of people, and for others, it's the point of entry for their personal exploration and discovery. The trap is set for many who try to understand it by sharing and discussing their experiences of what they've felt and seen. I don't buy into all of it either, but I've seen and felt some things that go way beyond my ability, or desire to explain them. Those experiences have nothing to do with anyone else, so who cares?

As far as chi having a part in someone's ability to defend themselves, I'd say for the most part, it's just good use of bio-mechanics (just good physics). But there is energy transfer on lots of different levels beyond just the physical. Do I understand it all? Yes, and no. I have a SENSE of it all, but would never attempt to project my own understanding onto someone else through power-of-suggestion or mystical abstraction.

When I do a Chi Kung lesson, I don't suggest anything to anyone. I just let them 'feel' and 'hear' for themselves. The experience for many is profound and personal. I discourage them relating their experiences to myself, or the others in the class. I encourage them to mull it over in quiet introspection. It's a personal thing that nobody else needs to know about. Everyone's different, and their Chi Kung is an internal relationship with energy in general. If there's a consensus on certain commonalities, it remains an unspoken acknowledgement...Mu, Shunya, Wu-Chi... That's as far as I go. To go any further is to try naming the Tao, which can't be done. Trying to define it is to fall into the trap I mentioned earlier. :)

[Repulsive Monkey]

Im sure whether or not your initial act was Qi directed , certainly Qi related in some way or other, but yes Qi definitely does have a large effect upon the actual fighting applications. I will only say this once and I know Prana has tried to stand up for the internal practices in an earlier message, but, all those who decry Qi are ignorant to the reality of energetics. Energetics I f you like, and I am personally going to use in this context, is of course derived directly from nature. Those who play down the use of Qi fit, most likely into one or more of the following categories:
never experienced it; read about it but have never been shown it therefore never experienced it; belief system is too narrow and steadfast to open up to experiencing it; are ignorant and want to remain closed to excperienceing it; are just trying to be smart and funny. I don't usually like being so agressive in my texts on here, Im just reciprocating to the equally offensive side to the Qi argument. Qi exists fact!!! I've been knocked out by my Master before, when he brushed his palm on my chest, and repelled several feet away when I touched him whilst he was in a static position. I only say these things because that is my experience, and I realise that many people on this board have had similar experinces too, and some of you haven't, that too is a fact and is the missing key between those who believe in Qi and those who don't. End of mission statement.

[Repulsive Monkey]

By the way I have used Qi in self defence in a pub about a year ago when someone went to glass a friend of mine in the face. I used sticking energy to the back of palm with the flat of my palm and led his hand without blocking it out of line of my friends face and into the wall, where unfortunately he lacterated his hand.

[Black Jack]

Shooter, makes sense to me.;)

I am not trying to make anyone doubt there undertakings as long as they are being honest with themselves, the only problem is you don't see a lot of honesty in the internal arts, which in turn makes it a lot harder for those serious internal players who are out there to R&D this stuff on a practical level, with there own blood, sweat and tears, something which should be admired

Though this can be stated for near about anything out there, no system is safe from those who wish to abuse it, take everything with a grain of salt.

Thanks for the reply.

[red_fists]

Hi Black Jack.

Well I dislike People that decry "Chi", for the simple reason that the show up everytime it is mentioned and try to tell
the people discussing it that it is fake, they are delusional, wasting their time, etc.

I am not a Christian, does that make me not accept a Soul or jump in whenever I hear Christians talking saying "Souls" are fake as they cannot be prooven by science, etc.

Yes, there are fake claims about "Chi" out there. But than there have been fake claims about nearly every MA System/Style I can think about.

Most of those so called Claims I see nothing more than a marketing strategy to feed on unuspecting Teens and smilar who still belief in Magik and thinks that D&D & Mortal Kombat is real.

So my point being, if you don't belief in "Chi" or similar stay out of those threads and don't post your Opinion there, unless you are willing to discuss and maybe learn something.

If you are willing to learn about those things, have an open mind and also accept that western science cannot explain a lot of Eastern concepts even though they are used these days like Acupuncture, and others.
Qi-Gong and Dim Mak(not the Death Touch variety) and others have been around for thousand of years, whereas western science has been what a few hundred??
Makes you think, or atleast it should.
Go in peace my fellow MA brthren.

[Black Jack]

So what you are saying is that unless I agree with the subject matter I am better off not responding at all??????????

Disagreement is not an option on my side but it is on yours, does not sound very fair to me, but again I do not jump into converstations like that, this was a open post regarding chi and combat ability, take a look at the post topic.

[red_fists]

Hi BlackJack.

What my point is rather than telling me me and others that we are wasting our time, keep quiet.
I for one couldn't care an iota how YOU feel about "Chi", nor would I want your Opinion unless I asked for it.

The same way I don't tell you what I think is wrong with Christiantiy, USA and other topics.

I study Internal CMA, there is NO way that you can learn those without having "Chi" involved. Nor can you master any other MA to a high degree, but that is my Opinion.

No not, the "no touchy knockout" variety, but the real and proper Chi.
Which you obviously know NOTHING about and therfor lack the proper knowledge/insight to discuss it or even comment on it.

And this is WHAT this threat is about, how did "Chi" and it's effect on the Body help (if at all) during his confrontation.

Since you know nothing about "Chi", how can you tell him if it was or wasn't?? So why do you participate in this Thread than??

Personally, I think that his training paid off, and with that he used "Chi" to stay calm/relaxed, had his Channels open and in thus stayed in control of the situation.
Peace to all.

[Black Jack]

:rolleyes:

Talk about having a fragile faith on your system.

"What my point is, rather than telling me and others we are wasting our time, keep quite."

I don't think that will be happening any time soon, number one this was a post open to anybody, which means me and my very valid and backable opinion, if you don't like it then skip over it, go finger your dan tien.

"The same way I don't tell you what I think is wrong with Christainity, USA and other topics."

First off what the hell does that have to do with the open-opinion-topic of chi and self defense? Second, I could care less what you babble about, I am not a christain, I am a atheist, as for the USA attitude, take a line with the rest of the europeanists and liberals out there.

[red_fists]

Hey BLack Jack.

You kinda make me laugh and spill my Coffee.

Lets do a rehash here.


Q: Does my chi help me focus on fights?

Your answer:

I don't believe in chi, so my answer would be no, everybody is always looking for the magic bean.

So your Belief does NOTHING to supply an answer to his question or does IT??

His Question was asking for:
A.) Yes, it does with explanation
B.) No, It doesn't with an explanation.
You stated your Belief/Opinion and thus have NOT answered his question and are "trolling" the Forum.
Nor given an explanationas to why it doesn't help.

This is a Thread to discuss Chi and it's effect on Self Defense, and so far you have contributed NOTHING of value to the Thread ad are thus trolling and spamming it.

The TROLLl glue is the Magic Bean remark and other inciting comments in later posts like:

As for the rest of you guys.
Keep fooling yourselfs, keep playing games and daydreaming that you are David Carradine, about how your chi/internal energy will be your magic pill and protect you in a serious street confrontation when a drugged out thug decides to take you out for you wallet or rape your wife, dream about your empty force bull****, iron gonad training and your one touch dim mak, I pity you and the suckers you teach greatly if you really think those things are going to come through for you.


So here is the proof you, Sir, are NOT into discussing the Question posted nor answering it, but are trolling for reactions from "Chi beliefers" and making feeble excusing when called to the Mat.
So BJ, I call you a "TROLL and have said my last words to you.

Peace to the rest.

[Braden]

red-fists - While I think BlackJack was a little emotional in his post, it seems to me he is reacting against the way people treat 'chi' in a self-defense context. For the most part, people tend to throw the word around very loosely; particularly those who don't train in the internal arts. It tends to be a catch all and a 'magic pill' - both of which are dangerous. Even in the internal arts, you'll hear people say all you need to do is your form, standing postures, and maybe some push hands, and you'll build up all the internal energy you need and be an excellent fighter, which of course is nonsense.

[red_fists]

Braden.

I agree with you that "Chi" especially in the US is overplayed and mentioned too often.

Said, that my Instructor hardly talks about Chi/Qi/Ki during lessons, but than in Asia the concept is accepted as it is part of the Culture.
And nobody even asks for an explanation.

I have been on many Boards and have met many like BJ and those Guys usually destroy legit threads and cause a lot of upheaval.

On some it has gone so bad that nobody will even mention Chi anymore and those are internal MA Boards.
Maybe I am prejudiced by bad experiences.

But to act the way he does and judge a whole concept by a few bad apples, IMHO, is unbecoming a MA.

It is not like "Chi" is a new thing, nor ONLY sold as a Magic Pill.

Funnily enough before the 1960's there were no internal or external Arts, they were all classed the same.

But to each his own.

[red_fists]

Hi Braden & All.

In my years in Ma I have come across a lot of Ma that wanted to change their System/Styles and remove all the "useless" stuff like Forms, Mediation, Qi-Gong and so on.

Recently a long series of Court cases came to and end about the practice of "bowing in Judo", as the moter of 2 Kids felt it violated their rights by being forced to partake in Shinto rituals(bowing).
The Mother is Japanese and some form of new-age Buddhist.
The Father wanted to call the Art "Jacket wrestling" and remove all traces of japan from Judo.

And the List goes on and on.
Many People today want to get rid of Form training as they see it as an outdated and time wasting practice.

Those same people want to get rid of traditional Weapon training, sparring, etc as they are no longer used in modern days.

The way I see it, they want to do street fighting/brawling but still call it by a fancy foreign name.
In short they want MA to be 100% effective/realistic and western scientific with no useless asian stuff.
Like I say maybe I am prejudiced.
But I like my Systems with all the trimmings that been there for Centuries.
As this is what makes each art unique.

See ya all.

P.S.: Would be interested what Arts BJ studies and for how long, his profile is quiet on this.

[guohuen]

No one is a bigger expert on a subject than someone that has no real experience in it.

[Braden]

redfists -

"my Instructor hardly talks about Chi/Qi/Ki during lessons..."

It's been my experience that it's only rarely useful to discuss it in class, and can be detrimental.

"I have been on many Boards and have met many like BJ..."

From the way he posts, it seems to me that BlackJack is a decent, open-minded guy who trains hard.

"On some it has gone so bad that nobody will even mention Chi anymore..."

Judging by most of the threads on the topic, I wouldn't say this is a bad thing. For instance, this thread. The initial post had nothing at all to do with chi, but the perception is that just about anything can be attributed to it. That's the way it usually is. I'd rather have no information on a topic, than alot of disinformation.

"Funnily enough before the 1960's there were no internal or external Arts, they were all classed the same..."

I'm not sure that's as true as people like to claim; but I also think there's some pretty good reasons for that classification. Of course that's neither here nor there... No wait, yes it is. Based on my (albeit very limited) experience in the internal arts, I see chi as a rather specific thing. People that throw the word around as being responsible for everything don't. This probably has alot to do with why I think internal/external is a valid classification.

"Recently a long series of Court cases came to and end about the practice of 'bowing in Judo'..."

I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic. Energetics, if valid, isn't a cultural practice. It's simply a natural reality.

"In short they want MA to be 100% effective/realistic and western scientific with no useless asian stuff."

I don't see the eastern/western dichotomy that other people do. All 'western scientific' says is - 'Ok, show me.' Anything legitimate should be able to stand up to this - it doesn't, in any way, invalidate the eastern approach.

If by 'useless asian stuff' you mean cultural practices, as you suggested in the beginning of this post, then I would agree with it. I'm not interested at all in cultural practices in my martial arts. Academically, I find them interesting, and I respect other people's wishes to participate in them; but I don't see that they have any intrinsic association to martial training. Of course, western traditions have just as much cultural stuff as eastern traditions do.

[Ky-Fi]

OK, I will attempt to convert Black Jack into a qi believer., while watching the Super Bowl. GO PATS!!!!! :)

But seriously folks, here's part of my understanding:

I tend to look at qi and qigong more as a paradigm or framework--- it's just describing the functions of the human body in a different way than the Western world does.

Qi=body's energy that flows through relaxed muscles
Li=muscular strength
jing=manifested qi-li
soft jing=a jing that more strongly emphasizes qi
hard jing=a jing that more strongly emphasized li

Every technique in every style has to have some proportion of both qi and li. If you relax every muscle in your body in an attempt to use a pure qi technique, you'll collapse. If you tense every muscle in your body in an attempt to use all li, you'll be stiff as a board, unable to move.

I like to use baseball as an example. Pitching is an example of a soft (qi dominant)jing. To deliver a pitch, the pitcher first relaxes his body. He draws in for his windup, sinking the center of gravity down, and sinking in (closing) the chest in to draw in his jing while inhaling and drawing in his dantien. He pushes off his foot, sending the pulse-like wave of energy through his waist and his relaxed upper body in a whip-like motion. At the same time, he exhales shortly and sharply, pushing his dan tien out, and with extreme mental focus, releases the pitch.
The ability to throw the ball hard is not reliant upon muscular strength---pitchers are notoriously skinny ( Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson), and don't bother spending much time in the weight room. They do spend a lot of time working on body mechanics and mental concentration and focus.

Hitting in baseball is a bit of a harder jing---less qi is necessary and more li is used--that's why power hitters often do work out with weights and have a more muscular build (Mark McGuire, Manny Ramirez, Sammy Sosa, Juan Gonzalez).

Do I think that pitchers would be able to throw the ball harder if they practiced qigong? No I don't, because they're already doing pretty much the same thing.

When people say martial (or any physical) skill is just body mechanics, I think they're leaving out some important factors. I think pretty much every athletic person will agree that mental focus and concentration has a major effect on physical performance. One of the main things that I've been taught in qigong is that "the mind leads the qi". Instead of just calling it "focus", in the qigong paradigm the role of the mind is given a much more integrated, "physical" role in the issuance of power. Similarly, I think most Western athletes will agree that relaxing as many muscles as possible often increases physical performance----one of the main things emphasized in Chinese qigong is that muscles must be relaxed for qi to flow through them. Likewise, for the active use of qi, I've been taught to use reverse breathing. But this is also done by people who don't practice qigong----it's just human nature. Normally, when we breathe, our dantien (abdomen) goes out when we inhale, and goes in when we exhale. However, when our body wants to circulate qi (utilize energy) more actively, we reverse that process. If I want to laugh, or yell, or push my car, I reverse my breathing so that my dantien draws in on the inhale, and pushes out when I exhale---that's one of the first things I was taught to do in qigong.

INTERCEPTION PATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, I guess what I'm saying is that if you follow the qigong paradigm, then yes, of course you use qi for self defense. Even if you don't follow the qigong paradigm, you're still doing largely the same thing.

FIELD GOAL PATS!!!!!

When it comes to non-martial qigong though, that's something that I don't really think has an equivalent in the West. I don't know if anyone else does the "four gates breathing" qigong---but it's where you just stand normally with your arms at your sides, with your palms facing the ground. Through coordinating the reverse breathing and mental focus, you lead the qi to your palms and the soles of your feet with each breath. There's some slight body movement as well, and my hands probaly raise and lower 1/2 inch when I'm doing it. When I'm doing this, my palms and feet get noticebly warm. I don't know if it's bioelectricity, increased blood circulation or what, but it's noticeable. Likewise, if I just stand there and raise my hands slowly up and down 1/2 inch, without the coordinated reverse breathing, and without the mental focus, my hands do not get warm. I think it's kind of tricking your body into reacting the same way internally as if you were doing intense physical movements, but without the actual movements.

To my understanding and experience so far, I really don't believe in qi projection from a distance--at least certainly not for any effective martial purposes. So, I also get frustrated by some of the claims of "qi powers".

But, I would have to say I've found the qigong paradigm to be incredibly helpful to me in understanding how to generate different types of power. And, I truly believe that the non-martial qigong practices are real and effective for health, even if I can't explain exactly what's going on.

[red_fists]

Hi Braden.

Maybe all "Chi" posts should be removed when they appear.
OTOH, how will people learn about what proper "Chi" really is??
Only by hearing multiple Opinions, and than doing their own research/training.

As for the "useless Asian" stuff, with that I meant things like Zhang Zhuang, Circle walking,etc.

Already a lot of Schools have dropped those as their Students complained about those useless, time wasting exercises.
Yes, Cultural or religious Issues can be dropped.

Also a lot of Asian Instructors complain bitterly about western Students and how they train, of couse not to the face of the green stuuf.
A lot of modern day Students don't want to work on basics, but rather go in and start pounding a bag or a sparring partner from the word go.
They feel that standing, circle walking, forms training, etc are a waste of time when they could be pounding something or somebody.Or start immediately on Weapons and they like.

Just my view.

[red_fists]

Hi KY-FI.

Good post.

And I agree with your definition of Chi & Qi-Gong.

It must also be remembered that traditionally Chinese Doctors were NOT allowed to violate the Body.

No autopsies or cutting into a Body to see what makes it tick. Kinda like in Da Vinci's time.
Hence, the "Chi" concept was created to explain the interaction between Body, Mind & Spirit.

And with that came the concepts of TCM and balance(I-Ching).

Yes, there are ancient exercises to develop this interactions and to produce certain results (Qi-Gong), the oldest being "8 BRocade Silk" and later on " Tendon changing classics" & " Brain & Bone marrow cleansing".

Interesting enough a lot of "untreatable" diseases are considered curable in TCM.

Just some off-topic Info.

[Braden]

redfists -

"OTOH, how will people learn about what proper 'Chi' really is??
Only by hearing multiple Opinions, and than doing their own research/training."

Mostly, no one will understand it until they experience it for themselves, and even then mostly won't. ;) To some extent, it's detrimental to discuss it whimsically - as this can create suggestions which can affect what you feel in your practice. It's much better to go into practice with a perfectly open mind - one that isn't 'expecting' anything.

On the academic, rather than practical, side, sure, there's nothing wrong with people with experience comparing their opinions. However, what we currently have is people with no experience attributing anything they feel like to it. Consider an analogy which is easier to understand - would a discussion where the word cat is replaced with refrigerator help us understand what refrigerators are? Except in the most vacuous sense, no.

"As for the 'useless Asian' stuff, with that I meant things like Zhang Zhuang, Circle walking,etc..."

Even with my _extremely_ meager skills, I could show someone like BlackJack the usefullness of both standing and circlewalking practice in a single brief meeting, if we were face to face.

[Black Jack]

Braden,

My emotional post was not in regards to guys like you, who train hard but to the guys who think that the magic pill will save them from a serious situation.

Instead of lying about my opinion, and this is just my opinion, I am harsh but true to my feelings on the subject on chi and self defense.

Now chi and internal health, thats different, that is interesting, but the self-defense aspect I consider bs, but again that is just me, so please do not take offense.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I read an earlier comment by someone who claimed that there was no such classification of both Internal and External martial arts prior to the 1960's. This is an unfortunately example of getting it wrong, because classical texts make the obvious differentiation between the two and they were written centuries ago not decades.

[guohuen]

Thanks Ky-Fi. That was clear and to the point.

[shaolinboxer]

Chi plays a role in everything.

And Ky-Fi, very good explaination :).

[Brad]

I find that most of the qigong exercises and "useless cultural practices" I've done do have good "real world" benifits even for people who could care less about qi. Like balance, leg strength, coordination, relaxation, concentration, flexability, patience, dicipline, etc...

[bamboo_ leaf]

Wow such a long post many viewpoints,
I would like to add my water to the ocean of thoughts. ;)


First I will say that I have answered this question for myself in the early 80s.

I no longer have questions about it. still much work to do, but no questions of this kind.

Black Jack, in looking at your post I can really understand much of what your saying. I think the bottom line is that you have never met anyone who can really do some of the stuff you pass off as daydreams. Even among many IMA people there are degrees of understandings and usage. Some of the higher-level people that I have heard about I would really like to met and see.

All of the people that I have met in Asia and the Chinese Americans here seem to be very pragmatic people, they may be more culturally attuned to these types of ideas but the bottom line is in the hand. In other words show me.


People on these forums throw many words around like shen, (sprit) yi (mind) and chi (energy) I often wonder about their understanding as they are talking about some of the highest concepts that IMA has to offer. Much of what many say I don’t agree with but also feel its more a matter of level and understanding, so i keep a quite mouth and open mind.

In the west somehow many of these ideas are marketed as a short cut, not really needing any real work to make it happen. In my own experience I have found the study and application of these ideas to be far harder then anything I have ever done in any MA that I have played since the 70s.

Its harder because it goes against every thing that most people are taught and until you met with someone who can really do it, no explanation or belief will make it any easier or real to anybody. You have to feel it and then ask, what was that or how did you do it.

You can explain many things using western terms but some how it seems that they don’t really explain it to the same degree if it is addressed at all as those commonly used in IMA arts. Even these terms I would say have many levels of meanings.

A simple idea like song(relax) it really means much more, we have no english equivalent because for the most part this is not addressed in our culture. I know people who have spent many years working on the meaning of this idea.

On some forums many say “okay I got it whats next?” do see what happens ? / now they want to move on to the super chi blast killer death touch. With out really mastering a very basic but critical idea.

These skills take time in some cases due to life style, it is very difficult to develop a true skill.

The problem as i see it is meeting and finding people that can really do it, and after finding such people can you let go of everything that you have learned and follow this way.

I haven’t met many who can. People say they can but it often proves harder then they think.

These concepts deal and work with how the mind and body and interact on a very basic level. It is this level that IMA deals with, depending on style and level of player it can be more or less physcal in nature. (talking to the degree,usage and dependance of shen, yi, chi)

Ill regardless of weather you believe it or not this is the way I view and interpret events that I see. It is also the level that I work with, on and react to for the most part in dealing with people.

I think the degree that person is more aware of these aspects the better MA they will be. Why? It takes your game to a different level just as the knowledge of MA gives you a different level to deal with people.

if you talk with "shooter" i think you will find that he has used and incorprated many of these ideas into his own practice. gives him a differnt prespective and level to work with others :)

[Shooter]

Much of what many say I don’t agree with but also feel its more a matter of level and understanding


You can explain many things using western terms but some how it seems that they don’t really explain it to the same degree if it is addressed at all as those commonly used in IMA arts. Even these terms I would say have many levels of meanings.

leaf, I just call it "peeling back the layers"

It starts to sound like a lot of pseudo-science otherwise. That's why I prefer to approach Tai Chi/Chi Kung as a set of interwoven ideas that each individual can assimilate physically, and practically on a level pertinent to their current abilities and understanding.

Instead of improving, much better to evolve. Does it have anything to do with fighting? I think it's important to start there, but that's not the final destination.

The great thing about making sense..... it quickens the strong and silences the weak. :p