Gou Shou

[Joe Mantis]

Could anyone please expound on each of the 6 levels?

thanks

[Tainan Mantis]

What is gou sho?
6 levels of what?

[Tainan Mantis]

Joe Mantis,
Do you read TJPM forum?
I saw guo sho posted there, now I know what you are talking about, though my teacher never said Guo sho.
There are several schools that teach this method.

I have come to a certain agreement with some of the other posters that the method I'm about to outline was developed for weapons fighting and later adapted to empty hand.

Also, before I mention the method you should know that this was at one time one of the inner door secret methods that outer door students didn't learn. Nor did they know of its existance.
To this day you will see that many schools have partner forms without even knowing that they are doing the solo version of a partner form.

The first mention I have come across of a variant of this method is from 2 books in the Ming dynasty which explain spear fighting and stick fighting. These books have yet to be translated into English.(details in TJPM forum under weapons folder)

I have also seen it explained for straight sword fighting in a method identical to PM.

The first public mention of the method in PM comes from WHF. My teacher has the same four steps he listed with an additional step at the end.

1.Lien
-solo form practice

2.ling
-solo form becomes a two man form

3.pi
-two man form becomes many small drills that each go like a merry-go-round.

4.tsai
-students learn how the drills are recombined in a different order.

5.gan
- a step unique to my teacher which is fighting.
This aspect didn't exist with weapons as the result would be crippling or death and so was only used on the enemy.

Details:
-You know how you have to make your solo form look top notch before you learn another?
Well, the same applies to these steps. Each step must be as good looking, quick and powerful as your solo form before moving on.

-There is another method of fighting also mentioned in Wang Lang's 18 family sonnet.
This is where one player performs the technique on the other player and is successful.
This method has been best preserved in arts like judo and shuai jiao(although my teacher also teaches it).

In this method the opponent doesn't get to defend or defends unsuccessfully and so is thrown or locked.
The disadvantage of this method is that it would eliminate all your sparring partners very quickly if you practiced techniques like "nose break" and "groin smash" which are more suitable for the first method.

So both methods are used. Since Ilya said his method is six part we can only speculate.
But, in truth I believe these steps could be broken down into more steps. Also, there are certain aspects of training not listed in this method, but practiced anyway.
Body conditioning would be one example.

One final point.
I believe in actual practice it is not beneficial for adults to follow this method so strictly for empty hand.
In the past when fighting was more important for survival of the community this method could be taught to children.
For adults the 3rd and 4th step takes precedence over the first 2. In fact, if the second step is eliminated that would be okay, since mastery of the fourth step would mean having an understanding of the techniques that was deep enough to do the second step.

[Joe Mantis]

Tainan Mantis,

Thanks. This is what I was looking for. I did see it on TJPM forum.

You put it into words well.

It always seemed that judo, jujitsu, etc were able to use their techniques. This method of training seems one sided.
Many american kwoons use this method as well.

[Joe Mantis]

Tainan,

oops didn't get to finish.

Interesting note on perfecting #3 & 4.
It seems that the philipino martial arts train like this as well.
Over all, the arts who get the best results and produce individuals that can use their techniques are one who train as you mentioned.

I think that in the USA this method has been lost for the most part. There are a few schools that this way.
From my observations, also, people do not know how to train two man sets. AT many tournaments it is as if the practioners are merely dancing.

Body conditioning is the lost ingredient to being able to use kung fu techniques. Most peopole do not want to admit that they will get hit in a fight and therefore train that way.

After a long time of researching why it seemed that kungfu practioners "couldn't fight," I realized that most were not trained properly.

Please add your thoughts to this.

Thanks

[mantis108]

Great post, Tainan Mantis. :)

I will further address your posts on the TJPM forum.

Mantis108

[18elders]

great info, this is what i have been trying to explain to flem and hua lin.
I hope they read your post.

[Tainan Mantis]

Joe Mantis,
You are correct in saying the philipino arts use method 3 and 4, at least from what I have learned.

As for tournaments. What you need to do to win a plastic trophy is different from what you need to do to win your life.

Although, in there defense, the san shou tournaments look somewhat brutal.
Which is ok for people who like to bring out their killing spirit on strangers.

MA artists from the old school were killers:
Escorts, body gaurds, revolutionaries, invaders, bandits etc.
How could an escort become famous for his skill if he didn't make a stand against a group of bandits and chop them up?

How could the weapons methods be developed without loss of life?

Tournaments are fun and exciting no doubt, but the final stage of traditional training is real fighting.