Iresponsible Kung Fu/Qiqong Article

[Black Jack]

With stuff like this CMA is never going to get out of the doghouse.

I was reading the new issue of Kung Fu/Qiqong at my friends house last night and I was suprised to come across an article by that fraud Richard Mooney and his empty force money making agenda.

What made it worse for me to read was the fact that the pictures show him using this empty force garbage on KNIFE WEILDING ATTACKERS.

It was just to much to freakin take, people really need to learn practical and serious minded self defense skills, knowledge which may in there life time be used to save themselves or there loved ones from lethal harm and this type of junk tricks ignornat people into believing in the magic pill, this type of marketing actually hurts them from finding and training in practical methods of CMA self defense.

The pics of him using his empty force to knock down these knife weilding attackers with that "down doggy, down look" left a sour taste in my mouth, try that conman **** for real, on a determined non-cultist with a blade and you will be dead meat.

I think it is shamefull for you to market such things if you are representing yourself as a serious CMA magazine.

I know this thread will be deleted for marketing reasons but these viewpoints are valid and it sucks.

[JasBourne]

I happen to agree with you, both on Mooney and the media that continues to give his quackery legitimacy. I'm sure such an opinion is unwelcome and unhelpful here.

[Brad]

Actually there's another thread on this very subject a couple pages back with the title: "Thanks for all the positive input!!!!"
by qimaster(aka Mooney): http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=9439&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

I put a link so you could read it without having to bump the whole thread up.

[mantis108]

I hear you. Two words - CAVEAT EMPTOR. It would be the publisher's choice (and rightly so) to build/rouin a reputation of (fill in the blanks). On the other hands, it would be our choice (we are the market) to purchase or not. BTW, there is only BBmag and a Grappling mag in my area. So I don't really have a choice. To be honest, the current state of MA magazines is really :( with *2 thumbs down* Anyway, I hear you big time.

Mantis108

[Brad]

I guess as a mag which is mostly freelance work, they've gotta take what they can get.

[rogue]

But does Rich's stuff work against box cutters?

I enjoy about half of what's in our sponsors magazine, but the other half is goes between laughable and dillusional.

Sorry Gene, but you guys should be more critical about what goes into my favorite CMA magazine.

[Sharky]

why doesn't he just make an mpeg of himself sparring and using his skills? he'd show us all. we'll all be eating our hats/socks/inanimate objects then won't we.

[Braden]

There are some mpegs up on his site.

Here's an article on the topic by someone with interesting viewpoints: http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/empty_force.htm

[red_fists]

All I can say about that.

Magazines need Articles that will get People to buy their Mag.

May it be a good or a bad Article, if it sells Issues it is in.

Rich Mooney and a few other People pull in those Buyers, like it or not.
Yes, People that believe him and those that don't will buy the Issue.

This does not make his claims valid nor invalid.

If you don't like what he does/sez walk up to him and say so to his face.
:cool:

Nuff said.

[jimmy23]

true they must sell magazines, but the "need the money" excuse is also used by most prostitutes and drug dealers.

And, believe me, I would be overjoyed to run across Mooney and jhave him demonstrate his amazing telekinetic abilites on me, or even on a raw beginner at my club

[old jong]

I think a serious magasine should filter out this kind of crap.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by old jong
I think a serious magasine should filter out this kind of crap.

I kind of agree - a responsible magazine should filter out crap. If a magazine cares about its integrity, then it should avoid printing garbage (BTW this is not a comment on Rich Mooney and his techniques as I have not met the man nor experienced his claims).

The excuse that the magazine needs stories that pull in readers is true, however to maintain its readership it must filter out questionable stories. But it must also walk a fine line - the stories must be interesting enough to entice its readers.

In the end, it is up to the reader as to whether they believe the contents of the magazine or not. What one man finds believeable is not always believeable to others. As someone said before - Caveat Emptor.

[rogue]

Personally I have nothing against Rich and what he teaches. If someone wants to depend on that then more power to them, just make sure the insurance policy is big and paid up.

Old Jong makes a good point which begs the question, does KFM want to be taken seriously? Let's face facts, it's not JAMA (which also has some odd ball content).

I'm not a CMA practitioner but I read KFM/Q to learn and get an understanding about the CMA. So far this has been a hit and miss endevour. Some articles are pretty good and others are masturbation of the ego of some of the writers, most of whom tend to be Westerners who like to dress up in Asian garb, pose in front of shrines and other tourists traps and come across like silly twits.

BTW, TKD Times also falls into this category except they have Tom Kurz as a columnist and they did have a good if small article on knife fighters.

[old jong]

They have a good time with this kind of things on some BJJ forums. They assume that CMA are all about throwing chi balls from the "derriere"!...
From a BJJ forum! (http://jiu-jitsu.net/board/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000402)
:rolleyes:

[red_fists]

Interesting.

Just checked with some fellow Japanese Students and other MA Guys out here.

Neither of them have ever heard of Rich Mooney nor EM.

[jun_erh]

and what about the ortepdi ads. I'm sorry you can't send someone money and grow ten centimeters or whatever. I think KFQ caters to the artsy fruits the way Black Belt and IKF does to the mullet-type stooges

[straight blast]

It saddens me to see people like this actually get exposure in a fairly reputable mag. Lord knows that CMA's suffer enough criticism without "Qimasters" around to make us look silly. I also thought that this was a bit below par for KungFu Qigong magazine. Especially condsidering that this guy has been proven to be a fraud.

Then they publish his articles...?

It does disappoint me. Next thing they'll probably be publishing the ancient secrets of Ashida Kim ninjutsu :rolleyes:

Come on fellas, pick the standard up. You're letting the whole team down publishing this goon.

[Kristoffer]

Uhmm,, I think that Inside Kung Fu has always been ****. But that's just my humble oppinion.

[Kristoffer]

DONT BAN MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[rogue]

K, I think that Gene is above banning people for being critical of Inside Kung Fu, especially since he's with Kung Fu/Qigong magazine you mullet head!:rolleyes:

[Crimson Phoenix]

Rogue, he obviously hasn't got a mullet, or he would possess supernatural unearthly powers as stated already :D

[Kaitain(UK)]

I saw some stuff like this demonstrated at a Taiji seminar yesterday - when I asked the instructor if it always worked he said 'no - that's why I hit them as normal - if it works then great, but I don't count on it' - I deeply respect the guy who ran the seminar and I know he has the skills to fight (after the effortless way he dealt with me I was very impressed - I've never felt so ineffective before).

I'm a sceptic of this stuff but the guys he was demonstrating on were doing some weird **** - none of them fell over or anything but they did seem to shudder to a halt and be unable to do anything - usually he hit them but he did achieve the same effects without contact (but he was at most a foot away when he did this). He then kind of 'grounded' them to relieve the movement (generally rubbing the kidney area I think - it was the lower back somewhere)

He then did a basic 'feel your chi' exercise - rotating the hands around an imaginary ball to feel the tingling. Then he said you should feel the heat from this and put his hands near my face - I didn't feel any heat but I did start to black-out. I don't know why - it was after 3 hours of the seminar so I could just have been faitigued. Anyway, it freaked me out.

I don't know what to think about this stuff - but my personal belief is that if it does exist, it won't work on everyone and therefore my concern is to use and train more conventional methods.

[rogue]

Speaking of stupidity, anyone catch Kim Dillmans article in this months Black Belt? Turns out the reason that their stuff didn't work is because women need to use a different foot position from men!:rolleyes:

[Budokan]

I didn't catch that article in Black Belt and won't be seeing any others for a while since I let my subscription lapse. Talk about silly magazines. BB is nothing more than a forum for people to write glowing articles praising their own questionable skills. I don't miss it one bit.

I only read JAMA now. Of course, even it has its faults, but it's better than anything else out there at the moment.

[Kuen]

Martial arts magazines are all mostly crap and they always have been. Whether it's Mooney and his Jedi powers, SYSTEMA, biting and pinching for ground fighting, or the Gracie's and the 90% of all fights etc. fabricated statistic. People say whatever it takes to sell their product and we all continue to buy it.

[Ray Pina]

I think they need to hire real journalist who take pride in their work and will ask difficult questions, instead of being used as an advertisement.

One of my pet peaves: photos. The one where the attacker stays in the same pose for five photos while the "sifu" changes five times. Rediculous! BS!

Get rid of the student/teacher photos and have MA journalists who can taste hands with the person being written about. How much money do these mags make? Put away the camera, pull out a video recorder and film differnt, live attacks and simply run the stills. It would be more realistic. Why not? WOuld this put too much strain on the "sifu." If he's good enough to make the pages he should be able to defend basic forward/rounded/kick attacks on film. Nothing crazy, basic, almost co-op attacks, but at least in real time where both players are alive. I don't think that's asking for too much.

Also, the full page adds of a streching machine right before an article on the same machine? Come on. Where is the pride? At least hide it in the back so it doesn't look like you're completely bending over for this guy.

I read them because they make for interesting train riding material, but I'd say 90% of it (all of them) is garbage. They need to tighten up the quality, get out there, and really do some investigative reporting.

[Highlander]

I keep reading the same basic theme in most of these replies. And that is you would like censorship. Everything in these magazines should represent the opinions and teachings of the editors. So what happens when their opinion is different than that of your Sifu. I guess theirs gets published and your sifu doesn't, even if both have merit.

As far as publishing things that are fraudulent, well, if you give a person enough rope they will hang themself. Publishing an exposa on these people could create legal problems. But publishing their own words protect the magazine and usually has the same effect.

As far as the grappling world laughing at us, they're going to laugh no matter what we do. So laugh back. They can be pretty funny also.

The way I see it the job of a magazine is to present the MA world as it is and without biase. It should show the good and the bad. The factual and the fraudulent. The new and the old. And it should do it in a way that is proportional to the real world.

A magazine is not a newpaper that presents only fact. It is a window into a world and it should present who is doing what and who is saying what and it should do it accurately so the readers can informed and use their own judgement.

How would this forum be if the only posts that were allowed were the ones that the moderators agreed with or felt had merit?

[Ray Pina]

I would like to see an article where someone goes inside Mr. Chen's sword making factory. How is it done? What type of materials? What's the process?

In the same issue, visit top swordmen from around the world (this of coarse should include my sifu, master chan bong, he has quite an interesting story). What's their style? Their philosophy? COuld they sum it up in one sentence so we can compare their flavor?

Dim Mak: Does anyone have the touch?

Now there's a headline. Interview everyone making such a cliam or advertising such. Where did they learn it? Have they ever used it? How do they know? We can get a cow a pig, have them study the anatomy, draw corralations, then get to work. We can give the meat to charity, a soup kitchen.

Chi and sex, what do the masters say?

I could go on and on. We all have questions and intrests. I don't care about the 10th secret Wing Chun method that some guy is teaching in the basement of chicago. He's the only one (convenient so know one can compare) and he'll illustrate it by pac sauing his student. Whooopie freaking doooo!

If I never see another guy bouncing five guys off of him with his chi or a bending spear on a guys throat, I think I wouldn't be missing much.

Or, have me, a reporter, go and be bounced. Or, let me go to canal street and buy a new spear and hold it. See if it will bend. Let me bring a sharpening stone too, let's make it legit.

I guess what I'm saying is I want accountability. Newpaper or magazine, you still need the according to ... According to who? Great Grandmaster Joe Blow from Montana who learned the 10,000 fish splashing hand methods. Fine. Let's test it then.

This is what I'd like to see. Here from more than the man featured. Let's here from his surrounding sifu, old students, people that know him. His teacher, if possible.

All this here say gets borring.

[Kristoffer]

:D whatever..


american martial art mags suck :p

[Shaolindynasty]

Evolution fist- so basically you want to challenge(or have"reporters" do it) all the people who contribute articles:rolleyes:

I think you guys are to hard on this mag. Like someone said above if you give them enough rope they will hang themselves. A magazine can't go around saying this guys a fraud that guys a fraud cause they will loose their magazine if they did. If you read that article and felt it was bull then somebody else probally did to. In any case controversy sells magazines and that's what Kungfu mag needs to do- sell magazines. It's only 1 article don't get so upset. If you don't want people getting misinformed write an article that shows people the real deal and let them make their own choices. If they censored that magazine down to a particular veiw point then allot would be lost cause there is a million different opinons in kungfu.

[Black Jack]

Just because it is one article does not really mean a thing, what it preaches does though, to not be to trite but what that endorses is a insult to those people who have had to encounter armed attackers and to those who have losg there lives or loved ones to a attacker armed with a blade.

It's shamefull, to use Rogues boxcutter example, Mooneys bs is a perfect example of a insult wrapped in a sheeps clothing, to those who were attacked with knifes on that plane, marketing such junk as if it had actual merit can damage people by leading them down a vary risky path.

At least in my own outlook, no matter how distorted.

Oh, and I would love to test out Mooney, give me a training blade, use just your empty force and we will see what happens.

[Mutant]

i think we've got to just view articles like this as some sort of comic relief.

the problem is that it tends to discredit some other articles that may have merit and substance. some may not be able to distinguish the laughable from the real stuff, which could be dangerous for them.

this guy could have been a ma consultant for 'kung pow- enter the fist', but thats about the depth and practicality of it.

while its their perogitive what to publish, if kungfu/qigung magazine chooses to publish such parlor tricks, they should at least publish our responses. is there a way we can have response letters published with the articles? they should publish this thread next month to balance it out. :rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

Our decision to run Mr. Mooney's story was most based upon the subject matter - qi projection. It is an intriguing notion that certainly arouses skepticism. But kungfu is based on qi, and if you buy into that concept, qi projection is part of the package. Is Mr. Mooney, or any qi projection for that matter, fraudulent? Well that's for you to decide. Whatever your opinion, qi projection has been a significant part of the belief system of the martial arts for a very long time.

While it's true that sales are very important to us since - obviously - there's not point in publishing a magazine that no one buys, but we really didn't view publishing Mr. Mooney's article as one that would generate increased sales. Moreso we were interested in the topic and encouraging more dialog on the subject. Our magazine has always kept an open mind policy and taken risks that the others might not. We also try to keep as positive as possible. Officially, we try never to put down anyone. There is no need for us to expose the frauds, just lead them to face truth and they will perish.

For what it's worth, publishing Mr Mooney's piece was in part a set up for a piece that I am personally researching on qi projection. It is slated for our Jul/Aug 2002 issue. I hope you can wait until then...

p.s. rogue - I'd never ban you for dissing IKF - in fact, I should send you something for doing so (hee, hee.) But in the same light, I wouldn't ban someone for dissing us - thread like these are what a forum is all about - discussion and debate. Although I might ban you for calling someone a mullet head. Mullets rock. :p

[Black Jack]

I understand what you are saying Gene, but I still think it is a bad policy none the less, you guys can be so much better, why publish the aspects of a fool when you can have all of your articles be of high caliber????

Get some articles in there by guys "like" Rovere and other players who stress realistic fighting aspects of CMA arts, they are out there if you look hard enough, it would be interesting to read.

By the way I did like the Black Tiger articles very much, that was good stuff, articles on the esotric systems are always a great read.

[Shaolindynasty]

"I'd never ban you for dissing IKF - in fact, I should send you something for doing so (hee, hee.)"

Uh.......Gene didn't you used to write articles for them? :confused:

I don't know what exactly the article said since I haven't read it yet but I do know if it was bull and was put next to some good articles then it will show.(I think this was secretly a part of their intention although they will never admit it).

[rogue]

Gene,
While I'll take credit for the mullet remark, after all I think I was the one who brought mullets here while poking fun at Watchman, I can't take credit for the IKF remark (it was Kristopher). I'll still gladly take some free stuff off your hands! Got any manriki geri's?

One nice thing about KFM is that we can praise or rip it apart on their own board, get a response from Gene about it and still not get thrown off. Kudo's to Gene and KMM

Heck guys, we even have Rich here to beat up on!:D

Gene, how about a column (or an issue) about practical CMA or CMA on the street? There has to be some real street savvy sifu out there. Also an article by or about Rovre would be excellent. The Race Bannon article was good but I wanted to hear more about his training. There are so many things to write about while still remaining both positive and in the CMA world.

More San shou and Sanda coverage would also be nice.

PS I do enjoy the more historical articles and like Black Jack the ones about the more esoteric styles. The Black Tiger ones were pretty good.

PPS Pictures of nekkid chics would be really nice too!!!;)

[Ray Pina]

I praise a response from an editor. I think that's great.

Also, for the record, I did not imply that one should challenge the person being interviewed, just make sure that the dog he is tryint to sell you will hunt.

I don't believe throwing a single full speed straight blast to a sifu's chest (especially when he knows its coming) is a challenge. However, I do think holding your arm out there while he manipulates you and walks around is insulting to me, and I would think other martial artists. My point, if you say you can bend a spear with your throat, let the editor bring and hold the spear. You want to be so bald as to claim that you can project chi (yea, out your as$$) and disarm a knife wielding man -- well, that's a bald claim. I could see that getting someone in trouble some day. What if one of his good readers where to surprise the sifu one day, wanting to see the trick. Sharp knife, not a student, that could be bad.

Accountability! Claim it ... prove it. But to just drop down some advertising dollars and run out the mouth and have students fly backwards when they grip your arm, well, that's a horse of a different color.

I do think the magazine should do more than present and let the reader decide. If you are running aphoto of this man doing this, well, then it looks like it can be done. Can it? Did you see it first hand? Where the people involved cooperating? Did you have anyone question it. If you are going to bring it to let the reader decide, bring both sides to the story. If that was the case, I'm quite sure it would have ended:

"Well, after several attempts Mr. So-and-so said he wasn't feeling well, that something was off that day. 'I just don't understand it,' said So-and-so. 'Usually this works right off the bat.'

IKF has scheduled another apointments with Mr. So-and-so next month, where he will try this feat again."

I would wait a month for another try, not like the guy is trying to tie his shoes, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt to have a few goes at it. But not give him the benefit to go against logic and everything I've learned martialy to this day. To me, that's irresponsible journalism.

[Fu-Pow]

This stuff is total crap and I'm glad that someone singled this article out. If they hadn't I would have done it myself.

This kind of stuff confuses the general public.It makes all Martial Artists look like fakes and frauds. It confuses martial artists as to what Chi actually is.

From a physical standpoint if Chi = bioelectricity then this demonstration is impossible. Any kind of electricity has trouble traveling through the air, it is a strong insulator and a poor conductor.

It takes the massive electrical force of lightning to make air a conductor.

If Gene Ching wants to run articles about Chi Gung there are some really good Taiji and Chi Gung practitioners out there. Feng Zhiquiang for example. He has some awesome stuff from Xing Yi. Or how bout Chan Si Jing excercises from Chen Xiaowang. Thats the stuff I"d want to see.

Whats's the point of running this crap?

[Crimson Phoenix]

Gene you'd look so good with a mullet :eek:

[Shaolindynasty]

"I do think the magazine should do more than present and let the reader decide."

Isn't that what magazines do? :confused:



"But not give him the benefit to go against logic and everything I've learned martialy to this day."

Fine for you but what happens when someone feels what your teacher does goes against what they have learned?


If that article was on "qi projection" and was wrote by someone who is said to be a fraud on these boards then duh you won't believe it. But what about the guy who writes the article on somthing you haven't heard about or is very rare?



"Well, after several attempts Mr. So-and-so said he wasn't feeling well, that something was off that day. 'I just don't understand it,' said So-and-so. 'Usually this works right off the bat.'"


Yeah right like you'll ever see somthing like this in print:rolleyes:


I still think presenting the article and letting readers decide is still the best way to go about a good magazine. Otherwise how would a magazine keep the material free of it's personal biases and opinons? It wouldn't, and that would be irresponsible journalism.

[GeneChing]

I do wear a mullet when I'm not bald. Haven't we discussed my hair already on this forum. Man, you guys got a lotta free time :rolleyes:

As for letters, let me get this straight. You guys are telling me we should publish letters? Man, too much time on the forums and not enough time reading publications. We do publish letters in every single issue. Why don't you quit your whining and write me some? I'll even accept email letters, assuming their are written nicely.

As for qi projection and Mr. Mooney, I've not met him personally nor have I experience his alleged powers directly. However, I have been in dialog with enough other significant individuals to beleive that his claim has some merit. Qi projection certainly arouses skepticism and that upcoming piece of mine discusses my personal experience of someone who has doen qi projection knock outs. Yes, I tested him personally and will relate my opinion on the mattter. But you'll have to wait until our Jul/Aug issue to get it all.

And as for more stuff from Mr. Rovere, it's funny you should bring him up because he jsut sent me some tapes and a book to reveiw. I welcome more submissions from him and he know this after we have spoken on the matter, but I have no power to make him write for us. Hopefully, he will send us some more stuff soon.

Lastly, and people always make this mistake, I am the associate publisher, not the editor.

[Black Jack]

Gene,

What are your requirments for freelance articles and are they accepted?

[rogue]

Gene,
Let me start off by saying that the Tommy Yeun(sp?) article was excellent. I loved his candor about street and ring fighting and he even admits to losing. I'd really like to see more on this sifu who sounds like he's walked the walk. Good work Philip.

Mr Ng's other article was pretty good, though I don't fully agree with his view. Still, he's taking his WC and trying to put it in a practical context. Definatly a step in the right direction.

In regards to Rich's article, I don't have a problem with printing things from the farside. I look forward to the Chi issue, though I hope that you include at least one article by a reputable skeptic as a counterpoint to the pro-superpower-chi side.

A question I do have is what's the deal with the "Race" Bannon letters? The first page was OK, but by the end of all the letters I was growing skeptical of Dr Bannons story, too many people writing to backup the story, including "Annies" dad. I'm starting to agree with the letter writer who was critical of the story. Are there any other references to his story that I may crosscheck? A date, a city, the name of the police dept that was working the raid.

[GeneChing]

bj: You'll find our writer's guidelines on this forum's host site - http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/guidelines.html

rogue: Don't worry, we got a good skeptic for that follow up qi projection piece - me.
As for the Bannon letters, yeah, they were pretty crazy, but they all came with valid return addresses and they checked out. I should add, they weren't the only ones we received. Additional outside sources confirmed the story, so if it's a hoax, it's very elaborate. Way too much work for our magazine. We received more letters on that article than any other article except the one I wrote on iron p3n!s qigong. Lord, I love qigong. It really pushes the edge of the envelope, doesn't it?

[jun_erh]

Just because people are "pushing the boundaries" doesn't mean we can't criticize what they do. If someone plays me a song on an electric human skull floating on a bed of jello, I still have the right to judge whether it is any good or not. You can't get around the truth with smoke and mirrors. I appreciate experimental ideas/stuff, but it needs to be held up to scrutiny at some point.
Ironicly, I feel similarly about these "reality" books that are crowding the shelves now. How many of these things do you need? They all say the same things.

[flashg7]

Notice how no one from the magazine defended the article!!!

[The One]

www.kungfu4u.com

It's about time someone grows some balls!!!

The One

[Frank Exchange]

I am glad to see that there is finally a backlash against mindless acceptance of these sort of supernatural claims. About time.

As the guy in the article says, if you make a supernatural claim, then be prepared to back it up in a reproducable fashion. That is, in controlled conditions, where there is no possibilty of cheating on either side, can the claimant do it at all?

[Dave Farmer]

Can it be done in a realistic situation against some one who ISN'T a plant, friend , associate, colleague, student or family member ?

If it can, why not demonstrate in a controlled enviroment of your randomly selected peers?

The questioning of a technique is perfectly acceptable to most other martial forms so why not the same for these 'mystical' forces.

I don't buy into this only works on some of the people some of the time routine.

As the saying goes:

*you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool ALL of the people ALL of the time*

Regards

Dave F.

[KenGullette]

I was so disappointed that Kung Fu/Qigong magazine printed the Mooney article and allowed itself to become a forum and an advertising vehicle for a fraud.

Richard Mooney was tested in a double blind, clinical setting set up by the James Randi Educational Foundation, which has a one million dollar reward for anyone who proves that they can duplicate their outrageous psychic or paranormal claims in a setting that doesn't depend upon peer pressure or students to be successful.

One by one, I think it was 20 people, who did not know why they were there, were asked to stand on one spot. Behind a partition, Mooney attempted to move them with his chi. NOTHING HAPPENED! He failed miserably.

Martial arts magazines have printed so many bogus, mythical claims about chi without any proof or verification that those of us who practice internal arts are considered liars and new age flakes by many "hard" style martial artists and the world at large. The internal arts have so many benefits, and amazing power, but it is all about body mechanics, not magic.

I have challenged Richard Mooney, in a series of personal emails, to show this power on me. I have studied and practiced qigong for 14 years, and my tai chi teacher has studied with George Xu, Zhang Xue Xin, Chen Xiaowang and Ren Guangyi. Richard has responded to my challenge with sarcasm. I've offered to go to his school and videotape this feat for posterity. He said, "It doesn't work every time." What a convenient excuse!! In other words, it works when someone plays along.

Instead of giving a free forum to frauds, martial arts magazines should be trying to find the truth about chi. Instead, they perpetuate myths, such as stories about tai chi masters being hit by an 8-man carriage, and the 8 men and the carriage stop because the tai chi master is so "grounded." It's all rubbish and beyond the possibilities of human ability. It also is beyond the laws of science.

"Keep an open mind," they say. I have an open mind, but I am not stupid. By running an article like Mooney's, you are telling your audience that you think they are stupid. Those who have been in the internal arts long enough should know that this is fantasy. But then, people will believe that Pat Robertson can sit on TV and cure a man in California of hemmorrhoids. They also believe that quack doctors can cure cancer with magnets. People will give truckloads of money to the Psychic Hotline. They are all liars and thieves, and so is anyone who says they can move another human being with their chi.

Shame on your magazine.

[Frank Exchange]

As you say, it is important to keep an open mind.
But not so open that your brain falls out.

[jun_erh]

don't take credit for my jokes, **** ass:mad:

[rogue]

And what joke would that be Butt-munch?:rolleyes:


Gene, thanks for responding to the Bannon post.
Are you sure you're impartial enough to be the Chi-skeptic? If any of the chi-masters need impartial or skeptical volunteers I think this forum could provide a few. ;)

[Repulsive Monkey]

I was at one point going to write a short missive on this thread in support of Rich Mooney, but have been side tracked by the laughable responses this article (which I have not read and therefore cannont support or quote upon). The thing is whether or not Rich can or cannot perform Lin Kong Jin, that doesn't disprove the fact that it exists or not. So many of you in this thread laughably come over as sounding so experienced and so well informed as the evidence which says manipulation of Qi CANNOT do these kind of things. By the sounding of this majority stance you seem to self perpetutate the fact that it sounds more and more impossible, merely by your own opinions alone! Surely it would be reasonable to not defenstrate so coarsly of Rich Mooney's claims merely because he too is merely stating his opinions about what he feels is possible with Qi manipulation too. I do not know but I get thefeeling that a lot of you on here have not had enough experience to be that well informed enough to say that Lin Kong Jin is rubbish or true. I know that I have not had enough experience but enough so far in life to know that it is very real. I am not going to make the claims that Rich Mooney makes though purely on the grounds that I can't proove that I can do it myself to that level. Sure I can do low level Qi demonstrations, but I know thats not gonna convince anyone that I can do Emprty force on anyone. Im just gonna leave it with:
a) Empty force is real
b) I am unsure of how effective it is for fighting, or though it is useful
c) I haven't met anyone who can use it 100% of the time.

Now I can't say fairer than that! Please lets have some balance in this topic.

P.S. The person who claimed outright that Rich Mooney was a fake because the Randi test needs their head read. Randi is no scientist in fact a billious ego-maniac who has little credibilty.

[Brad]

What reason is there to believe Mooney is the real deal? He said he could do something, was tested, and couldn't do it. Can he move a skeptic like Ken Gullete? When I read Mooney's writings on this forum, all I see is backpedaling and excuses. Also, what has Randi done to hurt his credibility? How are his tests invalid? And from my understanding, this test was not administered by Randi's org. He just fronted the money, and offered advice. I mean, the test was agreed upon by both parties, right?

I'm not a complete skeptic. But I do think it is important for anyone to be able to prove what they claim when, esp. when trying to make $$$ for their skill.

[Brad]

Hey Ken,

Do you feel Mooney is an outright fraud or does he actually believe he can do what he claims? This would explain why he took the test in the first place. I know my first martial arts teacher made similar claims and some even crazier, but was able to consistently pass court administered lie detector tests.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I appreciate your stance on this subject in particular. I do not put down the art that Rich Mooney says he has a certain degree of mastery over, but (and as I haven't met him enough to experience it) the claim made. Im not entirley sure what the exact wording of his claim was. If he had said that he can sometimes cause significant reaction through the medium of Empty Force, then more people might respect his claim, maybe. If he out right said that he can do it 100% all the time then, maybe, one could have great cause to doubt his claim, however whether you like it not, Rich Mooney, does have ability. As to how limited it is or to whether or not it can meet the level of his claims.....? I can't answer that, but because many here too haven't had enough experience with nor can they either, even if they do choose to.

[Brad]

Where's Rich Mooney's school at? I'd like to meet him someday.

[Water Dragon]

I think a lot of these arguments could be avoided if you would do one thing. Put a disclaimer on your articles. Let them know that what you are claiming is an advanced skill and that basic martail competency is a prerequisite to the attainment of this skill.

Right or wrong, the impression you are giving most people is that a raw beginner can come in, learn the empty force, and competantly defend themselves. By simply stating this is not the case, you will lend yourself a much higher sense of legitimacy in the CMA world.

[Crimson Phoenix]

What is easier to do? Lin Kong Jin or a regular attack or block?? If LKJ was easier, we'd all know it I guess...but if it is not easier, then why jeopardizing your life by trying it against a knife wielding attacker??

[JasBourne]

"no one's techniques work 100% of the time on 100% of the people. Guns do not work 100% of the time, Knives do not work 100% of the time. LKJ is no different. "

According to documented controlled scientific testing, yours works 0% of the time.

Somewhere I read in one of your replies an analogy you made to a championship weightlifter, where you said that no one expects a weightlifter to break his own weight record every time he lifts. Absolutely true. However, one does expect the weightlifter to lift something every time. It is very difficult to believe a person who says "I can lift 5 times my own body weight" and then refuses to pick up a barbell. Not only are you refusing to pick up a barbell, you are denigrating anyone who asks you to.

You're a fake, Mooney. Prove me wrong.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

pu$$y

[GeneChing]

If we ran a disclaimer on Mooney's material, we'd have to do it for every article out of fairness. What is the acid test of qigong skill? Qi is fundamentally unscientific. There have been many attempts at tests (the book Believe it or not Qigong comes to mind), the very nature of the concept evades science. This gets real sticky when you consider that it is the essence of kungfu.

It has always amused my how defensive MA people get when it comes to a potential charlatan. Why is that do you think? In a gun toting age, reality fighting is somewhat impotent. And the cry that they are cheating the naive, well, the biggest man you ever did see was once a baby. We were all beginners and got through it.

Kungfu Qigong is not at all ashamed or irresponsible for running that article. Any issue that evokes such emotion is important to bring to the table. In fact, we are rather proud of the controversy it has aroused. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for those letters...

[dwid]

Rich,

You failed to have an effect detectable to the judges. The existence of qi is not what's at issue here, your ability is. I think it's pretty reasonable for people to expect someone who claims to have an ability that works some of the time to be able to demonstrate it on at least "some" of the subjects in an experimental setting. I'm not accusing you of intentionally conning people, but when you agree to be tested and you fail, I expect you to own up to it. I'm sure if you had succeeded in the experiment, you wouldn't denigrate it so much.

On the other hand, I don't blame kung fu magazine for printing the article any more than I blame black belt for all the crap they print. Magazines are pulp, pop culture garbage for the most part. Taking them as some sort of reliable source of information is ridiculous. Believing everything you read in kung fu magazine puts you on the same level as girls who buy into all that "how to please your man" bs that are the bread and butter of glamour magazines.

[JasBourne]

we are rather proud of the controversy it has aroused

Any publicity is good publicity, eh?

:rolleyes:

[ShaolinTiger00]

I just recieved my copy of the magazine last night.

Pure and utter horse sh!t.

I have to wait every 4 years to get a decent sanshou article (read 7 tips for sanshou.. etc.) but I get drunken clf bad wingchun and empty techniques every 2 months....

There is no way I'll renew my subscription again. I'm going to go read Grappling magazine now. it has better articles.

I could also go into a tear about how KF mag is so far up the new shaolin temple's @$$ that they are blind to the truth, but that is another day...

[Highlander]

Originally posted by JasBourne


Any publicity is good publicity, eh?

:rolleyes:

Actually, it is. I let my subscription laps a while back. All this controversy has got me curious and now I can't find an issue anywhere. So I will be renewing my subscription.

Yup, it sells magazines.

[Water Dragon]

But on the other hand, I will not purchase or subscribe to the magazine because of what I consider inaccurate information. Even if this means I miss the occasional good article. I guess one needs to define their target audience and market to them.

[JasBourne]

Others who have been rude before,
are on ignore;
and I'll not answer them
anymore.

Oh, I am so not going to the prom with you.

[Water Dragon]

Will you go to Prom with me? I'll even rent a limo, just for you :D

[Black Jack]

Conmaster....I mean Qimaster,

In my opinion you rank worse than those clowns at Shaolin-Do and are running a high second next to the cult of Chung Mo Kwan.

The sheer fact that you are telling people that this jedi bullcrap will protect them from a armed attacker is bordering on criminal, you are using the ignorant mobs and the fantasy clad novices of the CMA world as your own bank roll.

Like all frauds and conmen you use the old comeback that western science can not gauge and test the effects of your failed Qi/Empty Force skills.

How do you sleep at night knowing that you could lead these blind masses into getting themselves maimed or killed by having faith in your dogma?????

Is your business worth that loss?

[Ky-Fi]

I think Black Jack makes a very valid point. An article exploring different sides of the subject would be one thing----presenting it as useful against armed attacks is something different.

[Braden]

Gene and others -

Just as an aside to this thread...

I fail to understand how anyone can claim qi is somehow beyond the comprehension of western science. In a nutshell, all western science says is a) propose a theory, b) test a hypothesis, c) from the ensuing observations, accept or reject the theory. So long as a phenomenon has an observable effect, it is by definition within the realms of western science. Many people mistakenly believe that 'within the realms of western science' means 'allready described by western science,' however, if this were the case, progress would be impossible. Yet, western science has quite clearly had unbelievable progress - so this is clearly not the case.

Continuing along this line, there ARE many legitimate effects of qigong practice which are measuable and therefore 'scientific' in the western sense.

Bringing this around to the topic of this thread... people who do not understand qigong will feel that you can attribute anything to qi. This is clearly not the case. The eastern 'scientific' approach of the taoists is just as valid as the western one - anyone with a basic knowledge of the history of science can attest to this fact. The taoists did NOT posit this thing called qi and leave it undefined - in fact, they defined it quite well. There is quite alot of literature out there which defines in no uncertain terms the behaviour of qi. Among this literature you will NOT find it's use in flinging people around from a distance. In fact, if you consider the entire paradigm, this seems a little absurd. When someone enters deep states of relaxation and introspection, they become aware of what has been called subtle states in their body. The taoists combined this process with their scientific method - of testing and observation, to formulate a model of the patterns of behaviour within a living organism. The step from this to saying that you can throw people around with 'etheric qi' is an immense conceptual leap - one which is clearly not implied by the basic taoist understanding. I'm not say that it isn't the case, I'm simply saying that a) you can't say qi isn't defined, and b) you can't say lin kong jing falls within the traditional definition.

However, the exact phenomenon being described here IS found among one of our world's discplines - stage magic and hypnosis. Assuming you have some level of charisma, you can be taught to do EXACTLY what is being suggested here, over a weekend seminar in either of these disciplines. Comparing the lin kong jing claims to the hypnosis/stage magic abilities of the same sort - we find they are identical: in normal presentation, in setup, and in limitations. Again, I am not saying that this IS the case here - I am following up from my previous argument. You cannot say qi isn't defined. You cannot say lin kong jing falls with the traditional definition of qi. You cannot say qi cannot be investigated by western science. But you CAN say that there IS an existing paradigm to understand lin kong jing - hynosis and stage magic. For the claims being made here to be attributed to another paradigm, such as qigong, there needs to be significant evidence or at least a logical argument - so far there is neither. That the practitioner in question practices qigong and has these abilities is not a good enough link - I drive a car every day and I also am capable of speaking, yet we would not claim there is a causal link between the two.

[Braden]

I'm not saying anything about you personally, since I don't know you. I'm simply arguing from logic.

You don't have to know, for instance, about hypnosis for hypnosis to work on you. Hypnosis is simply a paradigm for understanding a certain property of our existance. It is scientific because it makes certain predictions; certain statements about the speficifc of the behaviour. This property exists regardless of the formal training or understanding of the individuals involved.

That your development of this skill coincided with your practice of certain qigongs, as I briefly noted, is not sufficient to imply any causal relationship. If you were trying to exert this ability prior to practicing these qigongs, but were unable to, then you could possibly make a strong case. However, I understand this is not the case.

I'm sure I don't need to tell you about the properties of the hypnotic state which support the evidence you have put forth - notably, then when you started to believe something, you saw it; and the same for those at the recieving end. Again, as I argued before, all of the variables of this particular case are accounted for by the hypnosis paradigm, but NOT by the qigong paradigm. This suggests we accept the former for understanding it, unless there is more evidence or logic to bring to bear on the situation.

[Highlander]

O.K. I know I'll get slammed by some of the people here for this, but I have a couple of real questions that I would like to ask.

qimaster,

If I understood your last post, you were able to develop this skill, at least to a primary level in two years. Is that correct?

When you were doing these exercises were you expecting to develop these skills or did they just appear? And what were the first tests you used to find out if the skill was developing?

You say this only works on some people and then only some of the time. What do you attribute this to? Have you found any type of pattern?

Most of the claims I have seen here refer to moving people, have you had any success with inanimate objects?

[Mr. Nemo]

Braden is correct about western science.

[Braden]

Anyway, Mr. Mooney, it wasn't my intention to get in a debate with you on this matter. So I apologize for being brought into it. At the end of the day, I've never met you, so I'll readily admit the logical possibility that what you say is true.

I was simply reacting against the assertions that qi has no definition, and that science cannot be brought to bear on the topic. Both of which are absurd.

[Braden]

I believe all those references were allready debated at http://www.shenwu.com/discus/index.html in the Concepts forum. So I'll defer to their judgement.

[rogue]

Rich,
I used to be involved in several Pentacostal churches and have seen frauds, charlatans & witnessed what I believe to be mass hypnosis, and then I've also seen things that I could never explain.

So, what is the difference between what you do and what Pentacostal ministers do?

Also would you be open to someone from here to try the knife trick with. Of course it would be a non-rubber practice blade, no reason for bloodshed. :D

Also again, work those abs!

Also, I don't care much for what Dillman does either.


To Everybody Else,
1. This has turned into a pretty good thead.
2. Before we start jumping down Gene's shorts and giving him and KFQ a giant wedgie for printing Rich's article, let's at least give him and the magazine credit for giving us a forum to blast, counter-point and laugh at anything they print. That in itself is more than what many, if not all martial arts magazines do. Also if KF/Q makes some bucks good for them, they give us this sandbox to play in out of their coffers.

Gene, that issue dedicated to Chi? Better make some extra copies.

[red_fists]

Mr Mooney.

One question.

Why are there so few People that do Lin Kong Jing publicly?

And who are the recognised teachers of Lin Kong Jing??

This are an honest questions that have been bugging me for some time..

[Black Jack]

Friends with some, considered a loudmouth dolt by others here, its all good, but I can not approach this topic from a neutral veiwpoint.

It really bothers me that this stuff is being passed off, not just the fact that it hurts CMA, which it does, but that people can really get hurt, even killed.

Maybe I am overreacting, I don't know, it just sucks to think that someday, somebody, could get seriously messed up because of one persons goal to make money of ignorant people, honest people deserve better, they deserve the truth.

For those of you who have kids, you should all ask yourself this question.

If your teenage daughter or son was attacked by a robber in a elevator armed with a knife would you feel more secure knowing that this is what Mooney had taught them to survive?

It's an insult to everyone who has ever been attacked, raped, maimed or murdered. Oh, heck if only that girl had known empty force skills she could of fought of that group of rapists.:(

[red_fists]

Hi Black Jack.

Here is my viewpoint.

If Kong Jing exists, I see it's usefulness in Combat similar to Dim Mak or maybe even Fa-Jing.

Before you get upset, hear me out.

To we TCC Guys add Fa-Jing to every move we do. No, we wait for the right moment and opportunity to use it.

Same with Dim Mak or Pressure point strikes, submission hold, chokes.

So even if it exists (haven't been convinced yet), I would consider it only appropriate at the right moment.

Seeya.

[Black Jack]

Red-Fist,

You misjudge me, I don't get upset at a person for having there own views and research, though I do like to stir people up every once in a blue moon, I only really have a problem with people who pass of harmfull information to those who may need usefull information.

Even though I don't like people in general, a lot of them are walking cows, I still don't like to see people get hurt, I only enjoy reports of pain when they are based on scumbags and dip****s, its not the subject of the study I have a problem with, its people like Mooney, Dillman, Kwan...etch that bother me.

Most people here would be taken back that I do have a open mind, I belong to a ghost hunting organization here in Chicago and have gone on a number of field trips and exibitions, that though is a fun hobby, not the stuff of self survival, and what that article showed was a situation of self surivial, Mr. Mooney has his head rammed so far up his ass on self defense that everything he does sticks of ****.

I almost kept it together towards the end there :D

[red_fists]

Hi Black Jack.

I see where you are coming from. My reply was semi-general.

I have spoken with some TCC Guys/Instructors that also claimed to be able to do Kong Jing and had done semi-public demos, and their view/perspective was different from Mr. Mooney.

[rogue]

"It takes years to get results, and the only reward is one of personal satisfaction in being able to do it. "

So why bother presenting it as a knife defense?


Who ya gonna call? Black Jack Busters. Bachelors Grove is one place that I have to check out. I have seen a ghost.

[ShaolinTiger00]

"Pentecostal ministers don't do qigong, I am sure"

you've never seen a pentecostal church then! I grew up methodist, but my best friend was a pentecostal and I went to church with him on occasion. Scarriest things... tounges, shaking, convulsions. it actually may be more strenuous than qigong.

[Sam Wiley]

Originally posted by qimaster
Don't confuse Kong Jing with Lin Kong Jing either, they have very little in common as far as practice and results.

Richard,
Would you mind giving us an explanation of the above statement? What is the difference between the two as far as definitions goes? What are the differences in exercises practiced and the skill when used?

I know very little about the two, and although I don't believe it is possible to move people without touching them, I do know that it is possible to affect them without touching them, and I would at least like to know a little more about the art you practice.

One other question, just to satisfy my curiosity...in one of the videos I have seen of you demonstrating your skills, you responded to a knife attack by stepping back and swiping both hands downward along the centerline. If you were to follow this movement with a strike, instead of just letting the lin kong jing skill do its thing, where would the strike be aimed?

Feel free to PM me instead of answering here, if you want. These guys have gotten pretty ravenous, it seems.

[JasBourne]

Nuts. The bottom line here is that this guy claims he can move people without touching them, which is bullsh*t. He was tested in a controlled scientific situation and failed to move anyone whatsoever. He doesn't have the cojones to admit he failed the test, and he dismisses out of hand anyone who questions him. KFQ magazine printed as fact his ridiculous assertions that he can hold off a knife attack without touching the attacker - again, unprovable bullsh*t, and dangerous bullsh*t at that.

That makes anything both Mooney and KFQ magazine says completely suspect. Like that old joke goes, "we already know what you are, now we're just arguing price".

:mad:

[ShaolinTiger00]

Jas,

That was Excellent.

and the bottom line.

[Sam Wiley]

Richard,
Well, basically, if you were to swipe your hands as in that video (straight down the front, along the centerline), to which part of the body would you strike were you to follow that movement with a strike? Or would you follow the movement with a strike at all? I would think that after pretty much debilitating the guy, you'd follow it up with something.

[dwid]

Quote: "I like the "Ignore" button. That way I do not have to bother with seeing the silly comments and jealous fits and rages of some of the children who post here. Its a good feature to dismiss them and their childish tantrums."

At the rate he's going, Rich is going to have to put almost all the members of KFO on ignore. Then he'll only have to read his own posts, which are the only ones he seems interested in anyway.

[rogue]

Rich, are you a knifefighter? What's your training in bladework?

[Sam Wiley]

Interesting. In Taiji that same movement is followed with a palm strike, rising into Small Intestine 17 at the corner of the jaw.

Are there specific movements that you do to affect the other person, some specific hand movements along prescribed pathways, or is it more "free form" than that, where you just do whatever you feel? I don't quite know how to ask that question. But there are specific hand movements in Taiji that we use for disruption, and each is followed by a specific strike. There are no specific attacks they must be used against, of course, but there are specific hand motions anyway.

Thanx.

[JasBourne]

Does failure at one hastyily contrived test done by a group of skeptics mean anything?

Stop lying, Richard. Just stop it. We've all gone through this already, right here on this forum, it took over six months to craft the test, the people involved were reputable scientists.

Just stop lying to our faces. I know Joseph Goebbels said that "if you tell a lie long enough and loud enough, it becomes the truth", but stop it.

[ShaolinTiger00]

You have now been placed on ignore.

I believe ignoring the facts got you into this mess from the beginning.

you're ignoring science
you're ignoring psychics
You're ignoring credible martial artists

[ShaolinTiger00]

Science is always changing. Science is imperfect. I have no use for psychics, I bet you meant physics; in which case....


Thanks for correcting my spelling.. :)


You, richard mooney, are delusional. Are you saying that hundreds of years work by millions of scientists, geniuses, doctors, and other masters of their professions are completely wrong and that you, by yourself, understand the true forces of energy,matter and perhaps timetravel?

don't give me that "science said the earth was flat once.." trip either... we've come along way since those days of early man.

this is it. my last words on this matter.

Gene, frankly this is unbelievable. I'll never purchase another mag again, and I'll persuade others to do the same. to think that members of the CMA community would support (not to think publish) this ridiculous article is a disgrace to the true spirit of chinese martial arts.

[GeneChing]

In truth, I really don't think this article will sell more or less magazines. Sure, we made that sale to highlander (thanks!) but it's not like manymore are going to run to the newsstands and get this issue becuase of this. Come on, really. In the larger view, every MA magazine struggles. Magazine publishing is a dying industry and it's a testament to MA that we can even support the few mags we have out there. Dont' blame us for being taking the occasional risk.

There is this constant sentiment in the martial arts that magazines operate to sell magazines and that that's somehow negative to martial arts. Sure we run some eye candy - you all know I'd love to get more cheese&beefcake in the mag - martial arts is beautiful. If you offended by that, perhaps you've put MA on too high a pedastal.

Besides, if you all only knew what doesn't get into the mag. Someday you'll have to see my "Sparmaster or nothing at all" ad campaign... :p

My personal feeling about the role of our magazine is that we seek to keep our arts moving forward. Qi projection is a big issue (obviously from the magnitude of this thread) and it's defintately on the rise. Not only Mr. Mooney, but Qi FeiLong and George Dillman are becoming more prominent. And of course it arouses skepticism because it has yet to get any sort of scientific validation. But it is still well worth examintion.

And rogue - thanks for the wedgie...

[fungdoeduk]

Originally posted by Stumblefist
It's wonderful!
I put Mr. Money on my ignore list :D :D :D

Oh, come on Lonny, or do you prefer Lance? Why even bother playing into his game?

We all know he's crazy. Just leave him alone.

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by qimaster


No facts are ignored

Science is always changing. Science is imperfect.
I say that we do not know all the known laws of the universe, including physics.

*Physics isn't a "law", its a branch of science. An example of a law would be "gravity". The force that's keeping your sorry ass on this planet.

I'm sorry for you, I really am. You expect me to believe that another human being can project an invisible beam of energy across the room, into my body, knocking me over. Yeah. Right.

Did you know that Mr.Mooney can also balance a small family car on the end of his erect schlong?

You come and stand in front of me, and "move me" with your "Chi", and I'll smack you in with an iron bar whilst your trying. You'll hit the ground with that constipated look on your face.

If anyone's wondering why I'm being so abusive [I ain't normally], I'm guaranteeing a place in the exclusive "Ignored" club - its where all the real Martial Artists hang out.

[jun_erh]

Rich Mooney's arguement skills are lacking. I'm not saying that makes him a fraud. But this in particular "No technique works everytime". Come on, man. What am I, an *******?

[JasBourne]

I guarantee you that believing you can disarm a knife attack with your mind will fail every time.

[JasBourne]

Dont' blame us for being taking the occasional risk.
Well, I can certainly appreciate your viewpoint, Gene, but it really doesn't get KFQ off the hook. Mooney's claims are at the very least what is known in law circles as "violating the reasonable man rule", that is, that a reasonable man would not find it to be so.

That being said, KFQ has now given these claims the weight of legitimacy by presenting them, not as theory, but as fact. Mooney is "rising in prominance" PRECISELY because media such as KFQ presents his claims as fact. At this very moment, Mooney is silencing detractors by saying "your opinion is worthless, see my article in the latest issue of Kung Fu/Qigong Magazine". Go to other MA forums, there he is, saying exactly that - shut up, you ignorant dolt, KFQ says I'm right.

The weight of KFQ's support will allow him to get over on other media - after all, he's been published in "serious" MA magazines, he must be legit, no? It has become a circle that feeds on itself, a tale that grows in the telling.

Let me ask you something, Gene - did you bother to check into his background? Did you notice how his 'lineage' and 'credentials' are half-truths and exaggerations that feed upon themselves, how his close friends legitimize him and he them, how there is no record of half the institutions that endorse him, and the other half are organizations in which he is either a founding member or pretty darned close? C'mon, NOBODY smelled a rat here?

What kind of homework did your magazine actually do before deciding to print an article that says people can hold off a knife attack with the power of their minds? I suspect that all that was actually done was to call other magazines and ask "hey, did you really publish this guy like he says?" and let it go at that.

I would LOVE for Mooney, or anyone for that matter, to prove "empty force". I think it would open incredible vistas to the human experience, if we could KNOW, not just have faith, that this thing is real and can be manipulated. No one truly believed that humans could run a 4 minute mile until it was proven publicly; now we have folks running miles in under 4 all the time.

And I would very much like for KFQ to become the most respected martial arts magazine in the world. We really need an authoritative, trustworthy MA media source, it would truly help the growth and refinement of MA everywhere. But I can't see that happening with the current "oh well" attitude it holds.

But as it stands now, we have a liar being given legitimacy by the media. And media that just shrugs when questioned. And that is a frightening thing.

:( :mad:

[Budokan]

Gene's not stupid. He knows something about martial arts and knew the controversy this article would elicit. Controversy sells magazines and that's the business he's in. Like I said, he's not stupid.

I'll reserve further judgement until I see the promised article questioning these (questionable) practices.;)

[Budokan]

"Thats right, no technique can be guaranteed to work against any attacker at any given time." --qimaster

A 9mm blowing out the medulla oblongata into a pinkish wet mist works every time. Care to test it?

[jun_erh]

" no technique..."

you're using circular logic common in most snake oil sales pitches. Like this " Doctor, why am I unhappy"
"because you're parents didn't pay enough attention to you when you were young"
"but they did"
" oh, then they smothered you, that's why you're unhappy".
"my problems have nothing to do with my parents"
"yes they do"

and so on.

I worked for Jhan**** investigating insurance scams. I know all the cons.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Since Gene doesn't care about the content or credibility/reputation of his mag, the CMA now have their very own tabloid. might as well be the national enquirer, they don't care about the truth of their articles either.

Next month: Jackie Chan's secret love child "bat-boy" displaying the deadly praying mantis techniques!!

Wait till I see Martha again...... she's getting the riot act.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by qimaster



Thats right, no technique can be guaranteed to work against any attacker at any given time.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's true. However, most proven techs will work more than your results have shown so far. For example if you were to take the same group of people that you did your tests with and tell them not to let a BJJ black belt arm bar them, I will guarantee that almost all of them will be arm barred.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As far as that knife defense, I do have to say it's not any more unrealistic that 99.9% of "real" knife defenses that are being taught in martial arts schools today.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by qimaster

Then again, we could tie Delictate Sound to a chair, and test of the theory that a 12 Ga. shotgun is great at face lifts.


Firstly, the spelling of my name is incorrect.

Secondly, you'd never get me in the chair. :D

Thirdly, you're a real wise guy.

Fourthly, you're ANOTHER Texan "Gun Geek"

Fifthly - Why can't I be on the ignore list :)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by qimaster

No willing person is going to allow you to put an armlock on them, and any number of BJJ people will fail at trying to do that, as I am sure any number of them will be able to do it.

It also did not take into account unconcious resistance of the people. that is to say, as I would pull, they would pull against. if I were to push, that they would push against.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's my point. If you take a BJJ black belt and tell him to arm bar those same people who were in your study, they can all resist and most of them will still be arm barred.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Braden]

Just from the point of self-defense, wouldn't you recommend the first line of defense be the technique with the highest chance of success, and the highest degree of idiot-proofness (ie. still useful if bungled)?

Just a general point, not explicitly related to qi projection issues.

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by qimaster
What a typical response from an 18 year old kid.
How refreshing!

Go grow up you silly git!

Wrong AGAIN!!! I'm only 17! :)

You do know I was kidding right? And your sarcasm level REALLY isn't high enough for this forum........

[JasBourne]

Thats why the test I did was flawed. It did not, and could not take into account how much time would elapse before I felt wiped out. I could have exhausted myself energetically after the first 30 seconds, and the rest of the time was useless for terms of doing an experiment and getting results.

You agreed to all the parameters of the test. If you were so "wiped out", why didn't you stop the test? And why is this the first time that the subject of your energy level during the test has come up anywhere? Surely, if your energy was so depleted, you would have said so!

What exactly would you consider parameters for a "fair and scientific" test of your claims? C'mon, Rich, work with me here - if you're on to the real deal, it would be a marvelous thing for humanity! If you've got the real deal, let's go for the golden yardstick of legitimacy, the scientific peer review. Pass that and you'll be rich and famous, man, think of it!

[DelicateSound]

I'm particularly interested in the work of the Drahon Society, headed in the UK by Russell Stutely, and worldwide by Rick Moneymaker.

I believe the principles of BAR [Behavioral Alarm Responce] are inherantly more effective in their nature than a "ChiBlast". As these principles can be understood and explore in depth, the practitioner can obtain a fuller knowledge and be able to implement this more effectively in a combat situation. No?

F*ck "no-touch knockouts", you need to know how to respond and in what manner. Too many people simply block an opponants attack, and leave themselves in an awful position. The trick in ANY combat situation from a catfight to Nuclear War is to seize the initiative.

[this a better responce sir?] :)

[DelicateSound]

Do you agree? The average person has no knowledge of "Chi" or whatever it may be, and is probably better concentrating on external training?

As for "Chi", I've sen nothing to convince me, so I'm an eternal skeptic :D

[Highlander]

Hey wait a minute. Jaz is supposed to be on your Ignore list. Don't tell me your Ignore list only works some of the time and only on people that are sensitive to it also. ?????????

:confused:

[Knifefighter]

I do have to say I would never want to have any technique in my repetoire that depended on my opponent's sensitivity to it, was unpredictable in whether or not it worked, and caused me to become fatigued in 30 seconds.

[DelicateSound]

One quick thing though Rich, your "Players to the Game". Isn't this just a fancy name for a collection of stuff that dedicated MA's have known for ages.

Let's exclude the whole "Ghi/Qi" B.S. for a moment and concentrate on the physical aspects of MA. The "low strike" terminology etc. is hardly new. The learning of theory rather than "X" counters "Y" is a logical progression surely? I try to apply the learning of theory to almost everything, my KungFu, my Judo, even my guitar!

There is so much said about the DSI "Revolutionising MA's". To an extent I agree, but what else can you offer that I can't get elsewhere or work out myself.

[opportunity to gain a few customers here!!]

[JasBourne]

Don't tell me your Ignore list only works some of the time and only on people that are sensitive to it also. ?????????


ROFLMAO


On the money, Highlander! One thing this guy HAS talked me into believeing - the power of cheap publicity-seeking. At that, he really IS a master!

:D

[JasBourne]

*rimshot*


:D

[DelicateSound]

LOL at Jas.

Timed to perfection really.........

[DelicateSound]

From what I know of Russell, Eddie and Rick, they're all freat Martial Artists. I don't know to much about yourself, 'cept for the one article in an MAI I have somewhere.

You were demonstrating an "invisible force" strike. Russell's grimace is pretty convincing, but the whole 70's facial hair thing makes it look dubious :D

I was planning on attending a self-defence seminar when I get to Uni, which'll be a hell of a lot closer to the DSI Oakham gym. I need a bit more experience first. I don't want to turn up and have 1/2 of it going over my head, you know?

[Fu-Pow]

If any of Rich Mooney's students are interested I have a nice piece of waterfront property available......it's near Brooklyn.

[red_fists]

Now this confuses me.

Kong Jing = Medical "Empty Force"
Lin Kong Jing = Martial "Empty Force"

Maybe my knowledge of Chinese and Qi-Gong is deserting me.

Lin = Strong (no indication of Martial)
As far as I understand Qi-Gong the exercises usually come in 2 sets.
weak/external = Kong Jng, Iron Shirt,etc.
Strong/internal = Ling Kong Jing, Golden Bell.

And normally you need to train the 1st Set before you can work on the 2nd set. So you can't train Lin Kong Jing without having first done Kong Jing.

I also believe that Kong Jing is part of the Tai Chi Ruler System at higher levels.

Also your statement that to train for it is too boring and strenous for most People seems a bit illogical and counterproductive to it having any real use.

You mentioned that it took you 2 yrs to gain the Skill, now in MA terms 2 yrs is a fairly short time.

[KenGullette]

Hi Rich -- Thanks for finally speaking out.
I think it's interesting that someone like you, who calls himself "qimaster" and has tapped into this amazing universal source of energy, would be so insecure that he would ignore a puny mortal like myself. :)) You know, if I had become so adept at moving people with my chi, it would produce such astounding changes in my personality -- a glimpse into universal truth -- that it would be almost equal to meeting Jesus face to face. I certainly would be at peace enough to take on a puny challenge from a non-believer. Interesting how all your messages have the emotional integrity of a 14-year old, rather than having the courage to back up your claims.

Here are a couple of comments to your post above:

1. You continue to give yourself an out by saying your chi powers don't work on everyone and don't work all the time. How convenient. As the test coordinated through Randi proved, you didn't move ANY person at ANY time. Rather than producing 100% positive results, or even 70% or even 20% -- you produced ZERO PERCENT positive results. How many people were tested. 20? You would think that one of them would have moved in a manner consistent with your intent. You would think that ONE of them would have felt something strange as the chi struck them, even if they didn't move. But NO ONE FELT anything. You would think that a panel of double-blind judges, who didn't know what you were trying to do when they viewed the tapes, decided that nothing happened.

2. You claim to be a healer, too? Well, there are many hospitals that could use you. There are a lot of people dying out there that you could help. Let's get busy, man. If I could heal people with power from my hands, I wouldn't be able to sleep. I would be doing demonstrations before boards of physicians, contracting with a university medical center to conduct studies -- this is something that would revolutionize medicine, not to mention all science books would need to be rewritten.

Isn't it funny, though, how you and your brainwashed flock say that you can move people with your chi, but you haven't received the Nobel prize yet? This would be one of the most amazing scientific discoveries of the 21st Century. Why isn't it? Oh yeah, because it doesn't work. It is an ancient, outdated bit of bogus science from China. The human body is a great self-healing machine. And by doing qigong, a human can use his or her mind to relieve stress, strengthen the body and do some mental imagery that might stimulate the self-healing power that the body already has. But YOU cannot emit chi into another person and heal them of anything. It cannot be done. And anyone who believes it, when it has not been proven by any scientific or medical study, is gullible and naive.

3. If George Dillman says he can knock someone out without touching them, then he is delusional, too. I don't care who he is. He has lost touch with reality if he claims he can do this. The last article I read about Dillman, he gave himself a big out. He said he was working on it. He also said that it doesn't work on everyone.
Dillman has been around a long time. I hate to see him risk his reputation by taking this step outside the bounds of reality. At one time I respected Dillman, until I heard that he was working on this. At that point, I decided it was time for him to retire before he turns himself into a joke. What would really be great is if he had the integrity to say, "Well, I worked on it, folks, and it doesn't work." But he has enough students who will probably play along that he may think it DOES work. It's very sad. Yes, I would love for George Dillman to knock me out without touching me. If he did that, and if you did that, I would sign on as a true believer. I'm open-minded that way. :))

Anyway, I haven't seen Dillman make the outrageous claims and show the fraudulent photos that you did in the magazine. You put yourself on the front line, then disappeared when someone had the guts to say you are a phony. If you are not a phony, show it. I'll gladly come to Wichita Falls, Texas. But it will be a public event. That certainly isn't something you are averse to, considering your effort to promote yourself and this amazing art.

You can go underground if you want. You can run and hide. What a man. Your student Charles has agreed to give me a demonstration in South Carolina. Since you are afraid to do so, I will go to Charles and see if HE can move me. I would personally be embarrassed if I was the "Qimaster" and had to let a student take on my challenges.

I try very hard not to lose my center. But this phony stuff makes all internal artists look bad. Enough. The easiest way for you to get me to go away is to actually do the demonstration. But in order to do that, you would need to know that you can really do it. And even you knows the real truth, don't you Richard? After all, the Randi test proved that beyond a doubt for anyone with any thinking skills, didn't it?

Yours in the internal arts,
Ken

[Knifefighter]

qimaster:
You posted some seminars of people doing this type of thing on the previous page. Can you tell me if/when someone might be doing any of these in the Southern California area? While I admit to being a skeptic, I would be the first to admit it if someone could do some of this to me.

[Knifefighter]

D a m m i t t! Why doesn't anyone do any of this stuff in CA?

[JasBourne]

Because in California, they strictly regulate their new age charlatans. Shots, tags, taxes, etc...


:D

[Ky-Fi]

Anybody see Mystery Men? This whole argument reminds me of the Invisible Boy---the superhero who could only make himself invisible when nobody was looking.

[rogue]

Rich,
While I do believe that pressure points can sometimes be effective I do agree with Black Jack in regards to how you presented this as an effective self defense technique.

"If you project it, and it does not work, then move on to a physical technique. "

OK, I'm not a master of any martial art or a very hardcore streetfighter, but I've been around enough to know that fights are usually quick. I can close with someone from 20 feet out in about a second, I can deliver several punches in that same amount of time. So given that you have about 1 second to work your magic at what range do you start projecting and at what range do you switch to physical martial arts?

Does this work against a moving opponent?

Would you be willing to demo you ability at a Dog Brothers gathering? If you can impress that crowd then you have something.

BTW, are you using live blades in those pictures?



Also in regards to Ueshiba throwing people without touching them, I've seen Aikidoka throwing themselves without even an opponent being present.

PS
Anybody notice that Wang Xiang Zhai looks alot like the Juiceman?

[Black Jack]

Mooney,

If you are in Chicago or have any students in the Chicagoland area I would be more than happy to let you or them try this Proffessor X stuff out on me.

I will bring the rubber training knife, videocamera and popcorn, all you have to bring to the table is the old vulcan mind meld, I will coat the training blade with lipstick, and you can prove to me how your LJK can stop a determined and armed aggressor, my only structures are that I can present the video tape to the public of your failure and that you or your student only use LJK as a defense.

If you are interested I am more than game.

Rogue,

Where did you hear about Bachelors Grove?? I have been to Bachelors Grove on more than 8 occasions, both in the daytime and late at night, let me tell you, I have captured some amazing pictures of from that site, as well as being a first hand witness to a number of fresh dug up graves.

Despite its small size, it is very tense, though there are better and less well known places out there, Stull Cemetary, KA, Spider Gate Cemetary, NJ, Cemetary X, Decatur IL, Pike Cemetary, IL.

Do a online search for Stull Cemetary.

[rogue]

It's a pretty famous place, been on TV a few times and lots of postings on the net about it.

Which group are you with? Ever catch anything on film?

I saw something that I call a "ghost". Happened in an office building where I saw someone getting into an elevator. I called for the guy to hold the door and so did a women coming from a different angle. The door closed but I managed to hit the button and they opened up again. The woman and I get into the elevator and go about two floors when I say, "Did you see a guy?..." to which she replied "yeah, in a brown suit.". Both of us just got quiet and finished the ride. A couple weeks earlier one of the executives had killed himself and it was the floor that he worked on that we saw the "ghost".

Rich, could LKJ work on a ghost?

[Stacey]

Master Mooney; I beleive you and this is why.

I read, "The holographic universe" This book will be all the explanation you need.


I believe you because when I tape crystals to my chakras and hold a car battery, combined with faith in Jesus Christ, I can stop make someone dizzy and drop as they come at me. Their chi is offset and they keep getting more screwed up every couple of hours as the chi cycles through their body, in the end, all the blood rushes to their head and they die very painfully.

Luckilly, my dream herb teacher (who teaches me in my dreams) taught me how to heal them by channeling white light back into their liver. This reverses the effects and they actually feel better. I prefer this method because then they are happy and lose the ignorance that states that we are seperate.

In fact, I am the universe, The Father and I are one. Space in infinite.

[Black Jack]

Rogue,

I am a member of the Ghost Research Society but the group I go out with is a freelance setup located here in the Northwestern Suburbs.

About 5-7 people give or take, we check out cool places like Mount Carmel, Benedictine College its remote grove and locked campus cemetary, Bachelors Grove, Thacther Woods, Hull House, White Cemetary, St. Mary's, and also a host of other places.

It's been about 4 months since I went out and I am hoping to get a trip with a few of my buddies to go down south to Decatur, now that placed is wacked, home of the Illionis Black Panther sightings, and a nexus of bizzare sightings, while we are down there we would also like to stop by the infamous Cemetary X, makes Bachelors Grove look like a daycare center.

I have never had any luck getting anything on video, only standard kodak film, my digital camera has never picked up anything either, so I stick to the old standard.

[The One]

Rich,

What's w/ all the tattoos? Those pictures of you are not at all the least bit attractive. Do us a favor and take them **** things off your website.

Jenny aka "The One"

[KenGullette]

Hi Gene,
I was glad to see you responded to the posts on this board. I understand your view about printing an article by Mooney, without editing or questioning his validity.

However, I disagree with that philosophy.

I was in TV news for 22 years, worked in some pretty good stations with some very talented journalists. Won a few awards along the way. Studied journalism in college. No one is going to accuse your magazine of being objective journalism. And there is certainly the issue of freedom of the press -- you can print anything you want by anyone you want.

As a martial artist, I object to articles such as Mooney's because it puts the internal arts in a very negative light. If you seek to educate people on the martial arts, you should never run an obviously fraudulent article like that without including information on the Randi test of Mooney or at least interview some people who claim it is nonsense.

I would hate to publish a magazine that people bought primarily to look at the ads. But that's exactly why I buy Black Belt and Inside Kung-Fu. The magazines are full of empty claims and ego-stroking. In the future, I'll look at your magazine as science fiction, not fact, unless there is a more objective and complete way of reporting. I would hate to go to the trouble of publishing a magazine that has no credibility. And you have damaged your magazine's credibility by giving this multi-page free ad to Mooney.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that empty force does not exist. Sure, the proponents love to tell us to "keep an open mind," but there are a lot of people in this world who believe some very stupid things. What we really need is a magazine that takes a realistic approach to the world of martial arts, not a monthly flight into fantasy. One of the other posts had a great idea -- an article called "Empty Force -- Can Anyone Do It?" But that would require real investigation, and an honest inquiry.

I hope you aren't missing the message in a lot of these posts. You are coming close to blowing it and turning your magazine into a cartoon. I seriously hope you get the message, because I would love to keep supporting your magazine with my hard-earned cash.

[KenGullette]

Originally posted by qimaster

I will take requests from individuals if they want to feel it and see how sensitive they are to it.

----------
That's funny, Rich. You have decided that you will not take my request. I wonder why? Put your money where your mouth is.
--------------------
More from Mooney:
Thats why the test I did was flawed. It did not, and could not take into account how much time would elapse before I felt
wiped out. I could have exhausted myself energetically after the first 30 seconds, and the rest of the time was useless for terms of doing an experiment and getting results.

It also did not take into account unconcious resistance of the people. that is to say, as I would pull, they would pull against. if I were to push, that they would push against.

I admit that on that one day, in that one particular instance, that I was not able to do what I claimed. But that was only one day
and that was only one time. It works for me more times than it does not, and thats all that matters to me, and the people I do presentations for. [/B]

------
Gee, Rich -- the people that you were trying to move in the Randi test had no idea why they were there. It was a double-blind study, which is the only true way to verify claims such as yours. How could they subconsciously pull or push against you, when they didn't even know what was supposed to happen? If you could do it, someone would have been moved.

It doesn't matter to me whether I'm on your ignore list or not. My sister did that to me when we were kids and she was mad. "I'm not talking to you!" Seems sort of pitiful when it comes from a man who has tapped into the Universal Source, doesn't it, folks?
:D

[JasBourne]

fungdoeduk: whoa, dude, who p*ssed in YOUR Wheaties??



Rich, looks like Ken is on the up and up, he'll even shell out to come to you after he's done with Charlie. C'mon now, you're not going to let your students do ALL your work for you, are you? Time to put your money where your mouth is...

Oh, bummer, big guy! Looks like the mods deleted your super-long advertisement post. Darn, and it WAS so beautifully timed, too, I haven't had anyone walk blindly into a straight line like that in a while...

[DelicateSound]

Sorry to spoil your gloating Jas, but the "advertisement" was a timetable for Russell Stutely's Oakham gym, that I requested, Sensei Stutely teaches good pressure point work. Ah well......


......let the KFO trademark b!tching, fighting and slandering continue. It wouldn't be the same else.........

[JasBourne]

Sorry to spoil your gloating Jas
Drat. Oh well, I'll just have to go back to pulling wings off fruitflies...

:D

[Silumkid]

Wow....so much KFQ Mag bashing in here over one simple article. If we are all so disinterested and inflamed by all the "stuff that shouldn't be printed", then why does Black Belt and Inside Kung-Fu continue to flourish? The purpose of journalism is not to tell you what the truth is. Rolling Stone can print an article from a guy who says "Slipknot is the greatest band on Earth", but does that make it gospel truth? No...it makes it the opinion of the writer...period. Perhaps there are some publications that have staff investigative reporters who get paid to "expose" these things like Consumer Reports, but how fun is Consumer Reports to read?

I like journalism the way it is. Rich Mooney has been published lots of times, but he seems to have little crediblity amongst many here. The Moonies have been published lots of times and they still don't dominate the world. Scientology gets their hooks in lots of places they probably shouldn't but are still not the leading religion in the world. So on, and so on. A journalist doesn't tell you "Hey, there is this thing I heard about and if you aren't doing it, then you aren't (insert your favorite label here)". A journalist lets you know this thing is out there and says, "Hey, look at this." The rest of the experience is YOUR job, unless you are the easily led type and you actually DO believe everything you read.

If you want a martial arts magazine to be able to do "investigative reporting", then you should:

A) WRITE SOMETHING!

B) Support the magazine you would like to see do this by buying it and letting your voice be heard through e-mail, letters...where do you think a magazines' budget comes from if not from sales and adverts?

[JasBourne]

The purpose of journalism is not to tell you what the truth is.

From the National Press Club:

http://npc.press.org/abouttheclub/history-ethics.shtml

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walter William's Journalist's Creed

This creed was written by Walter Williams (1864-1935), the man who founded the world's first school of journalism at the University of Missouri and perhaps contributed more toward the promotion of professional journalism than any other person of his time.

I believe in the profession of Journalism.

I believe that the public journal is a public trust; that all connected with it are, to the full measure of responsibility, trustees for the public; that acceptance of lesser service than the public service is a betrayal of this trust.

I believe that clear thinking, clear statement, accuracy and fairness are fundamental to good journalism.

I believe that a journalist should write only what he holds in his heart to be true. I believe that suppression of the news, for any consideration other than the welfare of society, is indefensible.

I believe that no one should write as a journalist what he would not say as a gentleman; that bribery by one's own pocket book is as much to be avoided as bribery by the pocketbook of another; that individual responsibility may not be escaped by pleading another's instructions or another's dividends.

I believe that advertising, news and editorial columns should alike serve the best interests of readers; that a single standard of helpful truth and cleanness should prevail for all; that supreme test of good journalism is the measure of its public ser vice.

I believe that the journalism which succeeds the best-and best deserves success-fears God and honors man; is stoutly independent; unmoved by pride of opinion or greed of power; constructive, tolerant but never careless, self-controlled, patient, always respectful of its readers but always unafraid, is quickly indignant at injustice; is unswayed by the appeal of the privilege or the clamor of the mob; seeks to give every man a chance, and as far as law, an honest wage and recognition of human brotherhood can make it so, an equal chance; is profoundly patriotic while sincerely promoting international good will and cementing world-comradeship, is a journalism of humanity, of and for today's world.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


talk amongst yourselves ;)


B) Support the magazine you would like to see do this by buying it and letting your voice be heard through e-mail, letters...where do you think a magazines' budget comes from if not from sales and adverts?

That point was brought up several times. Again, talk amongst yourselves ;)

[joedoe]

The job of journalism is to report the facts, not the truth. It is up to the reader to come to their own conclusions about the facts.

[Silumkid]

joedoe,

Thanks for pointing that out. After I logged off I started thinking what I meant would be misunderstood, but you got it dead on! Cheers!