Not another Chi thread

[prana]

I wondered if it might be a good idea for the people who have experienced Chi to explain to the people who have yet to 'feel' or 'experience' Chi, why it is so difficult to understand.

I do not want to begin an argument thread, flame war, about wether Chi exists or not, but merely people really analyzing the phsychological aspects of it.

I believe the explanation of Chi has been made difficult in the English language (and others). There isn't even really a word to explain Chi itself, maybe in ten years time Chi will become a recognised English word (as we are seeing more and more in Western movies), like 'Bardo', from Sanskrit.

I think it is made more difficult when people put all explanations on this one illusive word, Chi for explanations of many things. Some merely say it is "life force", some merely say "Energy". It might be roughly true but difficult for others to conceptualise how it all fits together, and hence causing much doubts and difficulties etc.

Anyways, I also believe that Chi can be experienced by everyone. in fact, I want to encourage it. I think in order for an experiment to be proven, it needs to be performed. That is, it is reproducible. Everyone can perform this experiment, so a logical, step by step approach through this so that everyone can 'do' this experiment. I am not asking for an online forum manual on "how to feel Qi", maybe one might suggest a theoretical reason on the path and of course, encourage the teachings of a real Chi practioner as a guide of this path.


So all that aside, let us try and have a non-aggressive sharing of what you think is the reason Chi is so difficult to experience. What do you think is a legitimate "experiment" that people can perform to "experience" Chi, under proper guidance that is.

Ok, hope ya'll have fun and be nice to each other !

BTW : please forgive my lack of accurate English words, and I apologise if it steps on anyones toes. I primarily just want to break the barrier between the pre-experienced and the post-experienced, and most of all, a free to discuss, non-aggressive thread about Chi.

[KC Elbows]

I think one of the difficulties is language, and not just the language barrier. Chinese might have more words and more fitting words to describe it, but they are still only descriptions. The experience is totally different than the words.

The part of it I am most familiar with is awareness. To me, it is an acute awareness, be it of the forearms, the legs, the internal organs, what have you.

More than that, I don't know. I'm just a beginner.

[red_fists]

Hi Prana.

Let me be the 1st one to oblige.

The strongest Feeling I get is when we do the early training session at the yearly Seminar. 60 People, 5 Sifu and the Founder working together.

My Body feels solid/filled, with a feeling of Power that would make the Energizer Bunny hand his Batteries in. :D

Hard to explain, the Body is somehow filled with a tingling/vibrating sensation and warm at the same time.

While the Body feels solid at the same time it is subtle and flexible.
Movement becomes effortless.

And you can feel the Energy moving through your whole System.

Kinda freaky to be honest.

Sorry, best I can do from the KeyBoard.
But, I belief it will vary from person to Person.

[count]

But for the benefit of those who don't visit the Internal Forum this from our website...



Chi Defined:

The idea of Chi is fundamental to Chinese Kung Fu and Medical thinking. However, because of its new arrival, the English language has yet to formulate a word or phrase that can adequately define its meaning. We do know that Chi is not some changeless, perpetual substance everything in the universe is composed of and defined by. Nor is it the proverbial "natural force" or "vital energy force", for, although it is occasionally translated in that way, traditional Chinese thought does not distinguish between matter and energy. Perhaps we could say that it is energy at the point of materializing? Unfortunately, neither classical (the Wong Di Nei Jing) nor contemporary (the Shanghai Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine) medical text attempts to describe the nature of Chi as a concept. Instead, they define or perceive Chi functionally by what it does in our bodies.

The Chinese medical texts describe Chi manifesting from three sources.The first is called "Prenatal Chi", which is transmitted from parents to their children at conception and is stored in the Kidneys. This explains why children inherit their parent's constitution. The second is "Earth Chi", which comes from the foods we eat. The third is "Heavenly Chi", and is extracted from the air we breathe. These form the Chi that permeates our entire body. Chinese medical texts also describe Chi as having several variant aspects and functions. Within the body, Chi possesses five major functions responsible for the soundness of our bodies. Chi is the source of all movement, voluntary and involuntary, whether walking, thinking or aging, all depends on Chi. It is inseparable from movement and grows with it. Chi protects our bodies from the environment. Hostile influences such as illness are resisted. Chi controls change within our bodies, such as digesting foods into blood, saliva, sweat, and bile. Chi keeps things inside our bodies where they belong. Organs from sagging, fluids remaining in their place, and prevents loss. Chi warms the body. If you doubt this, just touch a dead one.

Chi also has five primary types associated with specific actions within our bodies:

Organ Chi - Chinese Medicine states that every organ has the same Chi, yet each performs differently depending on the nature of its Chi.

Meridian Chi - Meridians are the pathways through which Chi travels to the various body parts adjusting and balancing their activities.

Nutritive Chi - This Chi is associated with our blood. It travels within our bloodstream transforming nutrients from our foods.

Protective Chi - This yang Chi regulates our immune system aiding in combating illness and disease.

Ancestral Chi - This Chi's function is to regulate our breathing and heart rate.

Remember to keep in mind that this is merely an introduction to the concept and nature of Chi and its relationship to the body. Chinese medical theory does not move in a linear fashion like in the West. The whole is always present and is refined with learning over time.

[Mr. Nemo]

I made a thread very similar to this a while ago. There's no accurate translation of "qi" in english. The most common mistake in dealing with "qi" is assuming that its more mystical and esoteric than it is.

[joedoe]

Conversely there is the danger of trying too much to define it in western scientific terms. :)

In my mind (and yes, though you question it, I do have a mind :)) you are dealing with concepts from two different paradigms. Translation of ideas across those two paradigms will probably lead to many innacuracies and misunderstandings.

Doesn't mean you can't try though :)

[Arioch7]

I performed a search on my profile but did not get any old threads. A shame because I cant type all the things I have posted in the past about Chi, or Ki as I have known the concept most of my life.

BTW, Sam Wiley is a practioner of several styles that feature Chi. I do not always agree with him but he should post something here as that is his forte' .

I like the counts definition. Chi is loosely translated into "Breath" in English. Kiai and Aiki are concepts associated with Chi. I was trained to focus the body, breath and the technique into ONE strike and the goal is to harmonize this with all of your movements.

I dont think Chi can be fully explained. A low center and a strong root do not equate with Chi but they are a part of it. I look at Chi as Energy. The human body gets energy from a lot of different things... psyche included. All of these things add up to Chi.

Thats why the Chinese have dozens of methods of developing CHI. Hell, even Feng Shuai is supposed to induce a positive flow of Chi. Perhaps when ones residence is harmonius, the body is more receptive to proper behavior... AKA strong chi.

I dont really agree with Feng Shuai but it is an interesting concept.

Chi is power...

[Stacey]

Prana, do you see colours in a person's Aura? What do those colours mean?

[Qi dup]

Alright, i'm not going to define qi here. The best way I can explain how I notice qi without gonig into qigong or meditation has to do with sunburns. Most of us have probably had one. Sometimes you can feel it durring the day, like, "wow, i'm been in the sun for a long time and my skin is begining to burn." Typicaly your skin may turn red later that day or by the next morning. eventually, your skin will heal. Since i've started doing Qigong, I have not gotten a sun burn. I will feel the heat, usually on my back because i'm in the sun painting. I can pin point where my skin feels burnt, release some of the 'hot', and all I have to do is think about bringing my qi to the spot for a short time and that's it. It's basic, it's simple, but it's qi. I didn't reach enlitenment, I healed a sun burn. So try it. You can have never done an qi cultivation and still have some sucess at this. just concentrate on the sunburned spot and tell yourself to release some of the hotness and heal the area. I feel qi all the time. Think about white light shining from a spot between your eyes and up a little bit. everytime you breath in, imagine the light getting biger and brighter. there's not much qigonig to that, but i'm sure you will feel the qi there. Your not shooting your qi through walls or anything, but you will feel it, it's a start. I could really go on and on on this subject. hopefully something i've said here makes sence. now dont sitt in the sun for 8 hours and expect to wake up fine. start slow. 3 ibuprofen helps too:)

[prana]

Stacey

I CANNOT see auras :) hehehehe

[joedoe]

I was once having a bit of a chat with a friend and the subject of auras came up. Supposedly, people who can see auras say that people who are about to die have no aura ...

So imagine if you could see auras, you get on a plane, and no-one has an aura :)

[Crimson Phoenix]

Most people breathe without even being conscious about it (except at the moment someone says "pay attention to your breathing).
It's the same with Qi, as long as you are alive you can experience qi, no big mistery...

[Wongsifu]

just browsing around thinking of re-starting to post thinking hard about it as im sick of controversey, maybe this will get me into the mood of things.

Prana, im surprised you cannot see auras , im sure you are able to its very easy all you need to do is look about 1-2 inches above the persons shoulder and 1-2 inches behind the person focus there but at the same time subconsciously look at the person, this action triggers off your third eye and you can see the persons aura it might take a few attempts at first but after that its easy you just intend to see the aura and your body remembers how you did it and you can see them.

[Sam Wiley]

I do not think that qi is difficult to understand. On the contrary, I think the problem is that people have preconceived notions of which they cannot let go. They either believe that it does not exist, and become offended when it will not present itself to them, or they believe qi is something it is not, in which case they are disappointed when it does not present itself in a manner comparable to what they believe it will.

When I began practicing qigong, I was told that it made you healthy by allowing your qi to flow unhampered, and that after achieving this you could do specific qigongs to achieve specific effects. I was told that qi was bioelectricity. Another definition I learned in the beginning was, "intrinsic energy." "Qi" is just easier type and pronounce, I guess. I accepted this. I accepted the reality of qi, never questioning for one second whether or not it really existed.

Over the past few years, I have encountered a lot of people who believe qi is something it is not. They define qi in terms of superstition (not magic, though). Or they define it in terms of something out there, unattainable. Or they define it too mundanely. They accept, but they will only accept what matches a preconceived notion, and that is not true acceptance. The trouble is with these people, that they over-reach, looking far for what is close.

Before the past few years, I had never met anyone who did NOT believe in qi at all, but I have now met a few. They simply refuse to accept, and usually hold onto the same preconceived notions as those who only will accept what matches those notions, the difference being that they will not accept it because of those notions. They are the equals and the opposites at the same time of those who will only accept what matches a preconceived notion. The problem with these people is that they do not reach far enough, usually expecting great reward for no work, falling a few steps short of the goal but not willing to take them.

The key is to neither over-reach, nor fall short. The key is to neither look too far or accept only what is comfortable, nor to accept nothing and not be willing to put forth the necessary effort and yet expect results. Belief is not the key. The key is to simply accept.

Acceptance is the easy part. The difficult part is letting go of preconceived notions. How do you let them go? Well, to begin with, start practicing qigong, or Taiji, or Bagua or Xingyi or some other art that deals with the concept. One day, you will come to the realization of what qi is and is not on a basic level, and your preconceived notions will begin to dissipate.

When your preconceived notions have dissipated enough, and you have a basic grasp as to what qi is, then you should begin looking into deeper methods of practice that will teach you how to deal with it in a productive manner. After that, the whole world is your oyster from which to draw pearls.

Later on, after accepting, practicing, and experiencing, you can begin looking into book theories. I believe that book theories can be harmful in the beginning, because beginners might be misled by wrong information, or misinterpret good information. The Classics, for instance, were written by masters who had achieved a certain level, and as a general rule were written for advanced practitioners who have either achieved or are approaching that level. Qi is experienced in different ways because of different reasons, one of which is that each person is different. I can't tell you to look for the same things I feel because you may never experience qi in the same way and so will be forever looking for something that you will never find. The "signs" that you are experiencing qi are rulers to measure your progress. They are not the only ways to experience qi.

[prana]

Originally posted by Wongsifu
just browsing around thinking of re-starting to post thinking hard about it as im sick of controversey, maybe this will get me into the mood of things.

Hey Welcome Back. it is good to see ya again. This forum is not quite the same without your input Master Wong !



Prana, im surprised you cannot see auras , im sure you are able to its very easy all you need to do is look about 1-2 inches above the persons shoulder and 1-2 inches behind the person focus there but at the same time subconsciously look at the person, this action triggers off your third eye and you can see the persons aura it might take a few attempts at first but after that its easy you just intend to see the aura and your body remembers how you did it and you can see them.

Nope, can't see it, but never tried either. Maybe I should one day.


But you can help me point out my mistakes here as I write to Stacey if you wish... :)

Stacey,

The colours of the aura indicate the heathiness of your chakras, and hecne your well-being. For instance, someone whos heart chakra is healthy, will be very open armed, ready to lend you a hand and a hug. They generally do not mind being 'touched' whereas someone who has an unhealthy chakra finds it threatening to even come close to another person, let alone brush their skin.

Another example is the throat chakra, a person with a bright throat chakra is able to communicate well. Their speech would be greatly pure and calm, without harshness. As opposed to someone who has a weakened throat chakra, who finds dificulty speaking their mind (so t0 speak) and usually find it difficult to express their true feelings to anyone.

My practise is mainly about controlling what goes "thru" the energy centers, not really focussing ON the energy centers. But of course, they are very related.

Everyone,

great responses, Thanks again. I will write more when I have more time.

[Wongsifu]

hey prana im glad im back also.

I dont think you need me to help with what you say to stacey its all 100%%% correct .

I will tell you something very funny though that occured to me about the colours of the chakras.

My solar plexus chakra had been damaged from when i was younger and i was fixing it , so i asked a friend to look at it and tell me what he saw ,
so he was like "WHAT IS THAT !!!"

i was like what ?

he says to me your solar plexus chakra is bright bright red , i was like no way.

For about 5 minutes we were laughing and he thought i had used excessive sexual energy to fill up and heal the solar plexus , anyway in the end he meditated for a couple of minutes and we found out that when a chakra is healing strongly it turns a really strong red ...

I never had encountered this before..........

anyhow take care

[prana]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
I think one of the difficulties is language, and not just the language barrier. Chinese might have more words and more fitting words to describe it, but they are still only descriptions. The experience is totally different than the words.

The part of it I am most familiar with is awareness. To me, it is an acute awareness, be it of the forearms, the legs, the internal organs, what have you.

Awareness it is... I would like to say too that this is the secret to feeling it as opposed to "cultivating Qi' wthout firstly "experienced" it. Both which are great because the practitioner has the faith that she will achieve it, regardless wether she has felt Qi or not prior to her practise.

I think "Qi" has been around for a long time. I am not sure of the origins or the first persons to label the word Qi, but in Sanskrit, the "prana" or vital breath, I think is a translation to Qi. Actually, although the vital breath has a major gate in the nose, and the coarse breath is the flow, "prana" is also the subtler internal "winds" (direct translation "Feng" in Mandarine "Fung" Cantonese) that flow in the meridians. This which is also called "Chi".

I suppose of English speakers could accept that "wind" is a translation of Qi, but then again it is not entirely accurate.

Great thoughts, got more for us?

[prana]

Originally posted by red_fists
Hi Prana.

Let me be the 1st one to oblige.

The strongest Feeling I get is when we do the early training session at the yearly Seminar. 60 People, 5 Sifu and the Founder working together.

My Body feels solid/filled, with a feeling of Power that would make the Energizer Bunny hand his Batteries in. :D

Hard to explain, the Body is somehow filled with a tingling/vibrating sensation and warm at the same time.

While the Body feels solid at the same time it is subtle and flexible.
Movement becomes effortless.

And you can feel the Energy moving through your whole System.

Kinda freaky to be honest.

Sorry, best I can do from the KeyBoard.
But, I belief it will vary from person to Person.

Yes, it is a great feeling when someone performs an energy transference to you and you are suddenly feeling all these things you never thought you would understand. I guess this is the "easy" way of experiencing it.

Did you ever feel at a time like that, when you think Hand, your hand is suddenly so much more.... what is the closest word... "alive" ?

[red_fists]

Hi Prana.

Who is talking about "energy transference"??

I can duplicate the feeling during Solo practice alone, but not as strong.

Also I don't see how it would work since we are split into training groups and perform completely different Forms with different length.

[prana]

Originally posted by Mr. Nemo
I made a thread very similar to this a while ago. There's no accurate translation of "qi" in english. The most common mistake in dealing with "qi" is assuming that its more mystical and esoteric than it is.

Excellent. I think we should make threads where there arent heated debates and as someone pointed out, everyone has different experiences of Chi.

Now to the translation. Let's see.

In Cantonese, if someone has been running and feels tired, they usually say "mo hei" which kinda translates to "no breath". Hei- Gong is Qi-Gung so we can directly translate Qi (Hei) to breath.

However, when someone practises Hei Gong, they also find the properties of this breath running through their entire system. In the yogas, this same energy is more associated with "light" but is also referred to as the vital breath or "prana", it has a property closest to that of "breath".

There is an old saying, all the elements of the world are made up of the combinations of the 5 elements (actually their properties). Of earth, water, fire, air and of course of ether (space)

I think this is where most of the confusion really begins. I guess this ties in to my earlier reply...

What do you think ?

[prana]

Originally posted by Qi dup
I can pin point where my skin feels burnt, release some of the 'hot', and all I have to do is think about bringing my qi to the spot for a short time and that's it. It's basic, it's simple, but it's qi. I didn't reach enlitenment, I healed a sun burn.

I feel qi all the time. Think about white light shining from a spot between your eyes and up a little bit. everytime you breath in, imagine the light getting biger and brighter. there's not much qigonig to that, but i'm sure you will feel the qi there. Your not shooting your qi through walls or anything, but you will feel it, it's a start. I could really go on and on on this subject. hopefully something i've said here makes sence.

Sure it makes sense

I believe in what you said. I also find the way you translated the Qi from your middle eye as "light", as some translates the entire meridian body and system into the body of light and that which flows from it.

Personally, this is the way I train... not by compressing airs. Nevertheless, I might be "flamed" for saying this, but Qi Gong IS a form of Yoga and I always find it weird how Yoga is placed differently from Qi-Gong...

The Standing Qi-Gongs, the postural arts are muchly a form of Hatha Yoga, albeit different postures etc. I am not who is entirely accurate with words but I hope I havent caused too much controversy... aiks :eek:

[red_fists]

Originally posted by prana

but Qi Gong IS a form of Yoga

I think I agree with you there.

[prana]

Originally posted by Sam Wiley

Acceptance is the easy part. The difficult part is letting go of preconceived notions. How do you let them go? Well, to begin with, start practicing qigong, or Taiji, or Bagua or Xingyi or some other art that deals with the concept. One day, you will come to the realization of what qi is and is not on a basic level, and your preconceived notions will begin to dissipate.

Hi Sam, never had much to speak with you about but glad you obliged :)

I think this is great wisdom. Thw wise taught the technique of "unlabelling" because of the pre-conception and labellings of all matters and forms. Finally one creates a reality based on these conceptions and hence begin creating the likes and dislikes towards it. These subtles sensations of like and hate arises in the body as a sensation. In the highest practises of energy, these "labels" are referred to as "karma" or blockages.

I think in Qi-Gong, I have it explained that the ball of breath is compressed until the meridians open, most importantly the middle channels "Ren-Du"... this energy is really removing torpors and obstacles that cause undesirable "blockages" and eventually sickness (ripening of Karma).

In certain yogas again, when the breath has been entered into the central channels , it becomes that of "Prajna" or transcendental wisdom, knowledge. Usually this occurs with extreme bliss, I think it is the reason why Qi-Gong practitioners often find enough happiness inside of themselves and not require to find external influences such as money or fame.

Hence, I always become slightly skeptical of people who say they are Qi-Gung grandmasters out loud because they usually become humbled and down to earth. Conversely, it also shows I am not a very accomplished practitioner because I go on and on about it :D :p

[prana]

Originally posted by red_fists
Hi Prana.

Who is talking about "energy transference"??



I do apologise. Please forgive me.

:)

I guess I am influenced by how I first felt Qi so long ago.

[Sam Wiley]

Hi Prana,
I wrote that after having practiced my Twin Dragon Sword form about 10 times in a row. I sat down to my keyboard with all the sensations fresh in my mid, with that warm honey feeling flowing over me, etc. I have no idea where it came from, it just did. I waited until such a moment before responding here because I think it is important for people to know how to approach something like the concept of qi. I find the definition of karma as "blockages" interesting. It makes sense on several levels. Anyway, remember that even Lao Tzu wrote an entire book on the Tao, so it's not like every master can keep his mouth shut.;) But those who label themselves grandmasters or masters...yeah, I don't understand that, either. I mean, for one thing, how could someone be sure? There was a movie I saw a while back, Ghost Dog, I think, where the camera panned past this lone guy standing in the park beneath a tree practicing standing qigong. No students, nothing grand, he was just standing there. He wasn't even a character in the movie; he was faceless and nameless. That struck a chord with me. That scene was just so true to the concept....

[prana]

I tried staring at someone and that someone began to look more and more like a dead corpse. All features of the face disappeared and the face became like a blank feature. Kinda freaky :) But I am sure I was not doing it right.

I was wondering, what do you do to "heal" your chakras. You use sexual energy as you mentioned ?

With our practise, guru always mentions belnding our chakras with those of an enlightened being to heal our chakras. The use of sexual energy is not allowed for us to practise until we can move the energy into the central channel effortlessly. For me, I am happy with this approach...

But I am curious about how you do it..... Also in your Yoga system, what is the colour of the throat and heart ? For ours, it is Red then sky blue. But I notice it is different for Hindu systems. It is the opposite....

Its great sharing information with you man !