A question about Chi SAo

[CanadianBadAss]

Wouldn't it make more sence to chi sao with people who dont know how to "Chi Sao". Because if you ever chi saoed with a complete beginer you'd know how they usually go all tense and rigid. And thats what they'll be like on the street, not all relaxed like the WC players we usually practice with.

[whippinghand]

What does your sifu say?

[anerlich]

And thats what they'll be like on the street, not all relaxed like the WC players we usually practice with.

I think it is a mistake to assume you will face the unskilled on the street. Train to defeat a skilled opponent, anything less is a bonus.

Chi sao is a consensual drill, though you can add random elements. Not much good for you if the other guy doesn't know what he's meant to do.

[Wingman]

I think it would be better to "spar" with a person who does not know chi sao rather than chi sao with him. A person who doesn't know chi sao would be tense and rigid. When your partner is tense and rigid, you tend to be tense and rigid too.

You just can't do chi sao with someone who doesn't know chi sao. You have to teach him the wing chun theories, principles, and the basic techniques. Only after understanding wing chun can he apply what he leaned in chi sao.

[Mutant]

I think its good to experiment & practice with people at all different levels; untrained right off the street, beginner, approx. your own level, and more advanced than you. This can give you a broad understanding of how it can work, tension, and what people may feel like in a street fight.

But, remember that chi sao is an exercise for fine tuning your skills, and all you will gain from playing with people below you, especially the uninitiated will not help you improve (at chi sao or skills gained from it) and will be just for insite.

To get better, try to practice as much as possible with people at a higher level than yourself.

To answer your original question, no it can't benefit your chi sao to practice with stiff untrained partners. But it can benefit you to spar with those same people, and anyone who is game. Remember, chi sao is not sparring. You would just corrupt your chi sao techniques. Get those down first and you should blow the untrained away.

[CanadianBadAss]

thanks for the replies.

WH- "What does your sifu say?"
Haven't asked him. And I wouldn't waiste his time with a stupid question like this. Besides, thats what I have you for WH.

[S.Teebas]

Whats stupid about that question? I think asking question gets you and your sifu thinking, it makes class much more interesting. And shows to your sifu you actually think about the stuff he teaches you (unlike most other people i know who do WC).


To answer your question:
I dont think you can chi sau against someone who doenst know how to chi sau because there are rules to it. And if you want them to stick to those rules guess what they will be doing?... chi sau!

When you understand how to move and how to absorb force, chi-sauing against someone who is tense is quite easy and fun! (Providing you rskill level is much higher than theirs) You can really play with their body, it's like playstaion! :) (in a way) You just play games in chi sau and learn along the way...geting better at the game. (ok so i like metaphores...or similies for all the smart asses out there)


all you will gain from playing with people below you, especially the uninitiated will not help you improve (at chi sao or skills gained from it) and will be just for insite.

I really disagree with this comment. You can learn how to set people up. You can learn how they will react and try to put them in a situation when you think a few steps ahead. This cant be dont when you againt a better chisau player, all you can do against those better that you is react...if they turn the heat up that is.

[wongfeilung809]

if you want to "play" with something all tense and stiff like people in the street; then get a wooden dummey...
:D

[black and blue]

IMHO chi sau is a method you can only really practise with both players being relaxed. If one is tense, poon sau isn't going to work.

Against a tense/rigid opponent, why would you need to develop/utilise 'stick' - you can simply punch from the offset.

Tense arms are slow to react and so there is little need to search for an opening/gap to fill. You can blast a gap or beat their slower reaction.

It seems to me you maintain the stick BECAUSE your opponent is relaxed and in good structure. The stick enables you to feel the weaknesses in structure when they arise.

Someone once said chi sau's application in the street lasts for about one second, but it's that one second that enables you to gain the upper hand.

I wouldn't agree that most people in the street are tense. Most guys willing to fight have fought before. Usually drunk - always throw a barrage of punches. Often quite sloppy punches (swinging at the whole head rather than aiming for the nose for example), but fairly relaxed and free-flowing. Almost never standing toe to toe... usually ploughing forward.

Reading someone's forward energy is vital. I've been ploughed into in the past. It happens very quickly and is hard to stop. In the street the thug swinging at you isn't worried about the 'correct fighting distance' - he just wants to take your face off.

[vt108]

You should practice Chi sao with as many people as you can. There are hundreds different "ways" of feeling. Everybody makes different mistakes and you have to know them all so you are not surprised in a fight.
But it is very important to do Chi sao with someone better then you. Yuo should learn how to fight with a very skilled opponent not with a common man on the street. If you can win with a good fighter you can also win with the other who doesn't know how to fight. Very easy!

[Ish]

I think its good to practice chi sau with a veriety of different skilled people because, i find you practice more defencivly when with a person of higher skill and offensivly when with a person of less skill.

If everyone only practiced with people of a higher skill level, why would that person want to chi sau with you.

[Mutant]

good point Ish, thanks for the correction. thats a more accurate explaination of the process.

[Botha]

It is not possible to do chi sao with someone who does not know chi sao. If your tension is right you wouldn't even be able to do chi sao because you would hit your opponent constantly.

[JasBourne]

Chi sao is not a "fighting technique", it is a sensitivity drill. The guy that said it is best to train with someone better than you is on the money. I learn more playing 5 minutes with sifu than an hour with someone my level.

[rubthebuddha]

i'd say both ish and jas are on on this one. jas, because you're only going to learn better chi sau from a senior, but ish, because if all you know is soft hands and all of a sudden, you're up against steroid lad who's as unbending as a girder, you might get all befuddled in your hands and have no idea how to deal with that much pressure.

basically, i say this: work with your sifu, sihings and sijes to get better skill-wise, but work with lower-skill students to be familiar with the tension.

or how about this: work with a ****load of people. period.

[Peter Aarts]

Beginners may have force, but don´t have forward flowing pressure. That, they´ll get when they will be more advanced students. Good chisau skills, thus also good pressure, overcome force. So when you stay to your principles, you´ll just keep hitting someone, who hasn´t the chisao-skills you have, instead of sticking to his arms.
===> You can´t learn chisao from someone who´s not the skills you have.

[whippinghand]

You have the "greedy student" mentality....

Greedy people eventually find out they had nothing all along.

Chi sau is not about the "other" person, it's about you.

[Peter Aarts]

Whippinghand
How can you be so mistaken???
Off course Chi Sao is all about the other person. I´m not playing with myself you know.
You should be reacting on his imputs (who´s else), on his forces trying to block, attack or push your hands, wich cover the centerlinewith forward flowing pressure, away.

[JasBourne]

Chi sao is about two people working together to develop the finesse to outsmart the other person. It's ultimately about devloping the sensitivity to apply your tactics in a strategic manner. It's elegantly controlled physical chess, guys. Remember the old saw about WC being the thinking man's martial art? Chi sao is how you "get" it.

[whippinghand]

One would think so.

[whippinghand]

(z) none of the above.

[JasBourne]

sui-fuw, I'm not sure what you are asking, so I don't know how to answer. How do you play chess? Does the other person dictate your moves? Do you play chess by yourself?