Another Bruce Lee Thread......:(

[red5angel]

Ok, so a friend lent me his special edition dvd "Enter the Dragon". They have an interview with Mr Lee that I have seen before but this time I decided to pay attention to what he was saying.
Here is what I got from it. First of all Mr lee, may or may not be the best martial artist of all time, but what he had to say made a lot of sense from a martial arts perspective. I am not so sure I agree with his idea that of classical martial arts is crystaline, as it should always be growing, on its own and within us. Otherwise he said some pretty sensible things.
The other thing that occurred to me is that JKD would have to be bull! Now, if you study JKD, and you find this offensive, I would appreciate some reasonable view on this. I dont want to get into a flame war. But I feel this way because Mr lee espoused the belief that the ultimate martial way was no way at all, fighting without fighting, avoid the classical mess and all that.n JKD is a "crystalization" of what he had thought of and put down in some notebooks. It makes me wonder if he meant to create his own system or not.
By the way, He said something that supports Wong Jack Mans side of 'thier' fight. Bruce admitted he had a temper......take it for what you will......

[Ryu]

n JKD is a "crystalization" of what he had thought of and put down in some notebooks.


In my honest opinion yes at times. JKD has become a "style"
which is why I hesitate to say I do it. When someone does JKD they are doing the style that stops hits, traps, and gets into trapping range. It's seen as a standup art.

I don't do that. So I guess I can't call myself that.
But my stuff is much more than just judo so I'm stuck. :) I have no art.

:(

Ryu

[LEGEND]

RED...I have to agree with everything u posted! I'm kinda of an expert when it comes to BRUCE LEE...reading and watching all of his biography and even studied how he fought. In the beginning Bruce made some arrogant statements about various arts...cma, japanese etc...he saw that many students were being SOLD short...clones...he talk about the classical mess...being certain styles were not combat effectiveness...he made MISTAKEs also. Eventually he came into his own or his style of fighting like Michael Jordan would come into his style of playing. Bruce style of fighting is based on INTERCEPTION( read Hawkin Cheung and Jesse Glover interview )...he could not GROUND AND POUND...he could not BRAWL...he INTERCEPTED. That was it! Now u have to factions in JKD. U have one group that believes the JKD is a truly effective style...the INTERCEPTING FIST etc...and u have another group that lives off of Bruce's philosophy of finding your own way! In a way it's good they have both.

Bruce was a hot tempered guy. As a kid he was very hyper. As he grew older he was more normal...that's what happen when u have kids and a wife.

[Shaolindynasty]

"JKD is a "crystalization" "


YES! Every time I see a JKD school it reminds me of when Bruce said "The original founder starts out with hypothosis and soon it becomes the gospel truth".

I always remeber that when I hear a JKD student tell me about being "non traditional"(I beleive being "non classical" has become the new tradition). Then they start quoteing the Tao of JKD like it's the bible. When I hear allot of people talk about JKD philosophy it seems like most people miss the mark.


But what do I know, I am just trying to be a human being:D

[shaolinboxer]

Agreed. JKD has become extremely ironic.

[red5angel]

I have the utmost respect for Mr Lee, he seemed to be comfortable with who he was, and although his ego may have got the btter of him at times, I think he had the right idea, for himself anyway.Its funny, I do Wing Chun, and we are always working on rooting, so whenever I see a persondoing martial arts, I always look at how rooted they look. Watching Bruce Lee, even in a movie, he bounced around a lot but when he was ready to punch or kick, he definitely found his root. Now I watch some of the local JKD guys and these guys are always moving and bouncing around.
I am not trying to slam JKD here, thats for sure, if it seems to work for someon then great, but I think that Mr Lee may have cringed at the way it is being taught today. I think the point that has been missed is that Mr Lee seems to intend that each MA person must find thier own path. IMO, if he were still around, I think we would have seen his style of teaching approaching something very freestyle, where if you go to a Lee school you would learn the techniques and build upon it in a way that works for you.

[rogue]

Then Ryu, you've acheived JKD.

One thing I've learned about life, the martial arts, raising kids and pretty much anything else, it's about the journey not the destination.

The most interesting things about Lee was when he was trying to break into Hollywood, and when he was trying to find an approach to martial arts given his athletic skills, his big ego and his limitations.

I think many people today are about the destination, in other words they don't want to have to go through the process that made Lee, that makes a Inosanto, a Vunak, a Joon Rhee, a Chuck Norris, a Yip Man or any other great in their field. They see the result, a moment in the persons journey, and mistake that for the destination.

It's the followers who preserve (chrystalize) things not the leaders.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

i think there are a lot of people within JKD that would be inclined to agree with you.

hell, dan inosanto himself seems to have had enough, in some sense.

it is ironic, but it's also fairly inevitable. i think his idea was a good one. and in many ways, it still permeates how martial arts are taught today (though i think it was less a revolution than a reminder of how things once were). but whenever you're talking about a large group of people, some people are going to get it and some people aren't. the larger the group, the more members who don't get it. and so the misunderstanding gets propagated.

so who gets it and who doesn't? that's another question.

my head hurts.


stuart b.

[Ray Pina]

Well, if we learn one thing today, let's learn that BRUCE LEE is DEFINITELY NOT the best martial artists of all time. Most popular, well known, OK, but certainly not the best by far.

As for a "classical mess." I'll translate classical as traditional. and traditional as true to the source of any art. I'm thinking the founder of Ba Gua, even Hung Gar, even Wing Chun. Now. This may seem like a mess to someone who did not only bow out before completing his chosen art, but left the dance before the music really started.

JKD, well, a good fighter is a good fighter and give him some tools and he becomes a better fighter. I view JKD, and I could be wrong, as Wing Chun trapping and Chi Sau, grappling and Silat. I never seen Silat except in magazines so I can't comment and I'm sure there is more in there. I always thought though that one would need to spend time with any one of those arts to get good, never mind take a little from here and there. If someone gives it out so redilly to be borrowed, its probbaly not that valuable to them.

What did Bruce get? What do these guys who hop from school to school or seminar to seminar get? I don't know, I'm not them.

I like to find quality, the best around, and then associate with it hoping some of it rubs off on me. To hop here, skip there, one is too busy to focus and let thing settle. This is just my view on mixing too many styles, but I stand by my comment that BRUCE LEE is probbaly the MOST OVER RATED martial artist of all time. Maybe he was OK, but there are guys out there that are simply amazing, and no hi-pitch creams, high side kicks or nunchucks can take away from the crafts they sharing with the world.

[LEGEND]

RED...whoa...u see JKD guys bouncing around??? Very unusual...

[ShaolinTiger00]

JKD is still evolving!

Don't forget that there are several "branches" of the JKD family.



JKD Concepts:
Sifu Dan Inosanto
Burton Richardson
Paul Vunak
Larry Hartsell

JKD Nucleus:
Ted Wong
Dan Lee
Chris Kent
Richard Bustillo

Original JKD:
Lamar Davis
Gary Dill

JKD Fighting Strategies:
Joe Lewis
Jerry Beasley

Mike Krivka (http://www.martialartskoncepts.com) now teaches at my school and I see first hand how the concept guys are evolving. Inosanto is a grappler under the Machados! BJJ, Shootfighting, Combat submission (Eric Paulson stuff) etc.
Just as it should be.

[Shaolindynasty]

EF- The people who "style hop" need to take a closer look at Bruce's life. Looking at various sources I came to the conclusion that Bruce didn't try to create a new style. It seems he evolved more naturally and gradual. His source of information was cut off when he moved to the USA, if he had stayed in Hong Kong longer he probally would have stayed with WC longer. I think Bruce was a master of his art. Was he better than traditional masters? I think he was about equal to them he was just alittle more confident as opposed to the traditional chinese attitude of being humble. In that way he was american.

Bruce only really taught people who already had martial arts experience. So he acknowledged the need to have a base to build (or remove) from.

As for being overrated, I find most martial artists go through 3 phases

1. Bruce lee is god

2. Bruce Lee was only a 3 year WC student who had no idea about Traditional arts and the power you get from them. Bruce is an idiot

3. Bruce knew his stuff, boy was I wrong in both instances before. He was a good martial artist. He was both traditional and modern. His ideas are what most good martial artists think even though he may word them differently.

Evolution fist- You said you've only been with your teacher a year right? I think you should open up a little bit, your still going through that "My teacher is invincible" phase which will wear off like it obviously did in your previous teachers/styles. You have the tendacy to elevate your teacher above the level of being human and shut out everything else. That's a mistake for anybody Bruce lee or Chan Bong.

[red5angel]

LEGEND, I see alot of them, atleast around here, imitating Mr Lees' little hop step thing. I think the principle behind it is to keep moving, hard to hit a moving target sort of thing.

[Shaolindynasty]

"imitating Mr Lees' little hop step thing."

I see people trying to "bounce" all the time to. That footwork was used to be mobile. People shouldn't be hoping to hop. I heard Bruce was really still during sparring until he wanted to move around the opponent of during defense or somthing like that. Like someone said before he was grounded.

[yenhoi]

Ive said it before:

Judge Bruce Lee, his teachings and his art by the quality of HIS students. Bruce didnt teach in huge rented gyms that could fit 40 people training at one time. He didnt paint JKD in big red letters on the door and accept any kid with 40 bucks a month as a student, 80 bucks gets you the platinum package. Most of Bruce's "JKD" students (the vast majority) had a lengthly background in some prior "classical" art (mostly Ed Parkers students.) Ted Wong, who his MA journey with Bruce Lee and JKD is a very good example of Bruce's teachings. Also notice that not until very recently did Mr Wong start teaching 'publicaly' by which he means putting on seminars, he doesnt have his own school anywhere.

Red:

Remember to always keep in mind that Bruce Lee didnt write any of the Bibles of JKD, they are only his published notes. Also remember that he was at times and actor and one of those times would be when he gave that interview (I have the dvd too.) Im not saying that to discredit Mr Lee or pad his words so that JKD looks better or anything, but it is definitly a factor that should be considered (Mr lee being an actor.)

Like I said, Buce Lee didnt write Tao of JKD as a book, just published notes, but be sure to take to heart the last line whenever quoting Bruce Lee or considering Bruce's JKD: JKD is just a name.

[Braden]

Wierd. Listening to Bruce's theories usually makes me want to be ill. I wish I could understand what the big deal is. Some of the people affiliated with him are very cool though.

[Shaolindynasty]

"Listening to Bruce's theories usually makes me want to be ill."

Why? C'mon share with the group

[red5angel]

Yenhoi, dont get me wrong, I respect Mr Lee for his ability, and his passion. IMO I think he had a good idea, that probably suited him personally. Of course I am also one of those who believes Wong Jack Man is probably telling more of the truth about thier confrontation as well!
All I was saying is that I hear a lot about JKD and it seems it has gone in a direction that goes against Mr Lees beliefs.
My opinion on Bruce Lee is that he had great athletic ability, and he was a good fighter. His martial Arts could have used some work. He never finished formal training, and it may have helped him. His ego was large, and this sometimes got in the way of what he was trying to accomplish. He had a passion for the martial arts and he wanted to be good, and it seemed he wanted to make other people good. As much as I enjoy his films, I admire him for his passion, not his skill. I have seen people with more skill.

Shaolindynasty - exactly what I am talking about. If you watch Bruce Lee in his films and in some of the rare tapes of him practicing, he bounces a little, but when it comes time to deliver a blow, he is firmly grounded and stuck to the ground.

[fa_jing]

ShaolinTiger00 is right. JKD is a term that can be used to mean a style, or it can be a group of concepts. Actually, the "Style" of JKD illustrates very much the concepts. A good book on the"style" JKD is "Wing Chun Kung Fu and Jeet Kune Do, a Comparison, " by Ted Wong and William Chueng. Anyway, that's why my teacher, a student of Ted Wong, says he offers "June Fan JKD" to make the distinction that he is teaching Bruce's fighting methods. Although, I have chosen not to study this, actually I am studying Yip Man wing chun with a few, not all JKD concepts, mostly in the form of training drills, you know, working with the focus mitts, heavy bag, jump rope, air shield, full contact sparring, etc. I know of the"five ways of attack" but I haven't sat down to figure out what they really are, nor do I really care. I don't try to use Bruce's footwork either, or throw punches like a boxer. We have added some extra grappelling practice but I don't think that relates to JKD, that's just martial arts in the modern world.
-FJ

[Braden]

Shaolindynasty -

Mostly I'm just causing trouble. ;)

But since you asked... his martial philosophy is poorly paraphrased Wan Lai Sheng, and he doesn't manifest it's principles in his practice. His classical mess routine is meaningless, has become hypocritical, and has allready been said better and implemented more constructively by, for instance, the yiquan and baguazhang schools. His martial research is just insulting - if anyone else waved around the years spent alone in their attic sketching notes in the margins of fencing texts as proof of their physical prowess, they'd be laughed at. And to top it off, his attitude stunk. Despite all this, I'm told he was a pretty good fighter. And he's certainly associated with some excellent names, such as Inosanto. He was also certainly a good entertainer - all of the fight scenes we have as his legacy are pure cheese.

[Ryu]

Now you've gone and hurt his feelings. :(

Ryu

[Ray Pina]

First, I know my master is all too human. But, I judge him from what I have seen from my involvement in martial arts. My hun gar comes from under Frank Yee, my mantis comes from under Milton Chin and Gin Foon Mark -- no two lightweights by far. Before that I was 100% Isshin-Ryu. I 've seen tons of breaking, I've seen a man catch arrows with his hands personally, I've seen alot. BUT, I have never seen anyone with such a no-nonsense, let's get to the truth of the matter aproach as Mr. David Chan Bong.

I could be training elsewhere. Believe me, its not the 4 hour commute to and from class that has be knocking on his door. There is certainly a reason why I feel so proud to be training with him. Its not that his lineage is impeccable, not even that I have never seen a sifu so willing to accep another into his own place to challenge what he teaches, but that I agree with his aproach. He is a human being. I have never called anyone a master in my entire life, I am of the mind set that we all hold that piece of divinity within, that we are all a part of IT, but this man is a master, giving him the same title as other's I've seen is an injustice.

Well, enough of that; back to Bruce Lee. To say he was as good as some of the traditional "masters", I'd ask: who? As good as who? Who worth a $hit did he match hands with?

What I have seen, and I'm not talking the movies because that's garbage, but training videos, was preposterous. His kicking was sloppy and technically low level. The methods he used to spar with Kareem was futile (and I acknoledge that he was beat with reach and size before he even began, but to attempt it, he took the aproach of someone I would not consider to have a high handle on fighting theory). His book, I honestly don't think its that good. Just because its in print doesn't make it right.

I have heard from a few that he had the fear of God put in him by Gin Foon Mark's crew at MSG. I give the man respect in the sense he is a fellow martial artist and did the "sport" and "recreation" of karate a lot of good. What he did for gung fu, combat skill, I don't think much.

I honestly save my praise for individuals like my teacher, people I find impressive, who stand out and bring something valuable to the table I want to sit at. I do not want the nicest fly kick, the most amazing nunchuk work, I certainly do not want a three inch punch (why so much room Mr. Lee?). What I want is to be a VERY capabale fighter. There are many people here that I enjoy sharing the day with, as well as seniors and training friends, so I will not say I want to be the best ... But when I see a fellow artists, I look carefully. Do I think I can take them? If the answer is no I MUST find out why and then get to work.

[LEGEND]

RED...hmmmmmmmm that's unusual...this is JUN FAN/JKD skool tecaching this??? I know when Bruce hopped around in some movies was more or less being playful imitating Mohammad Ali...when u're sparring with boxing gloves u have a tendency to bounce a little. But most that demonstrate the JKD self defense tech are moving like TOMMY CRUTHERs...it's a very forward attack. With certain side stepping motions.

[guohuen]

I can't fault Bruce Lee for having an ego. I'm sure he used it to survive in the racist times that were the sixties. I still consider him a positive roll model in many ways. Just a human one.

[yenhoi]

Intresting to note that no matter how much Mr Lee and his associates played down the Wong Jack Man encounter, In everything I read, Bruce mentions that expierence many times as a turning point in his training / the development of JKD.

[Ray Pina]

I also think Bruce Lee is a good role model, as someone who "made it", and in his case, as a Chinese American during those times, he showed what one can do if they focus. I would never take that away from him. But I will not hand him the crown of Martial Arts either.

[LEGEND]

Well Bruce did preach instant destruction in under 10 seconds...when he couldn't do it with wong man jack...it took him 3 mins...he got ****ed...how was he gonna be able to beat guys much bigger than him when he had trouble beating someone relatively the same size???

[Shaolindynasty]

Wong Jack Man's claims are kind of out there. He says the fight lasted over 30min. I have never witnessed a fight out side of a ring last nearly that long. Personally the lee side makes more sense. Wong's discription makes it sound like somthing from a movie. I think Wong made that version up o save face. Of course I wonder if the reason for the fight really was about teaching non chinese, Wong has allot of non chinese students, of course he could have just been following orders.

Anyway I am reluctant to believe anybody who comes forward saying they beat Lee. Since nobody said this while he was alive. It looks like people ae just trying to make themselves good by saying they beat the legend. (yes the legend is bigger than the man)



"To say he was as good as some of the traditional "masters", I'd ask: who? As good as who? Who worth a $hit did he match hands with?"

I'd reply "who has your teacher matched hands with to be considered great"

You'd say "He has fought allot of challenge matches even though he doesn't compete in the open circuit"

I'd say"same thing with Lee, he never fought tournaments but he fought allot of challenges in hong Kong and is acknowledged as being good by his sparring partners some of which became champions in full contact karate."

The evidence is there. Bruce may have not been the best but he was good. I'd say equal to and better than most of the "masters" today.

[red5angel]

LEGEND - I am not sure who they are but I can find out if you are interested. There are a couple of schools around here, and we have a guy who is ex JKD in our class. He was with his JKD class for three years and says they moved around a lot and got the bouncing going often.
and I still think WJM won the fight......

[LEGEND]

Shaolin...I agree...the 30 min comment is kinda ridiculous...unless it was a full contact boxing glove match up. I don't see how that can be possible! James Lee( RIP ) who witness the fight said it look like the point fighting that u see nowadayz...Bruce was chain punching but couldn't score cause Wong Man would move or turn away...the only thing Bruce could do was a double leg takedown( grappling??? ) and pound Wong Man. It was like a HS playground fight...with each guy hitting each other like skool girls then one got really mad and slam the other to the ground LOL! So in this case...it is upsetting...Bruce thought he had adequate standup for the longest time...and now it showed he SUCKED...not to mention how was he going to fight against someone bigger and stronger. Also his cardio after 3 mins was winded! He never experienced this sparring with his wing chun mates cause they would never disengage...they would stay infighting. But Wong Man supposely moved around. Bruce from that point on work on weights and cardio and boxing training to CHASE down his opponents.

Red u live in MIN??? Well there is a hugh LIFETIME FITNESS center there that teaches JEET KUNE DO CONCEPT...do u see any trapping from those guys or more in a muy thai like fighting stance???

[Ray Pina]

If you want to teach in NYC chinatown, as a monk from Shaolin recently wanted to do, you have to go before the Chintown sifus. My sifu is the head of that and the official tester. One does not get that position readily I would assume. And believe me, he desrves it. Since I've been with him he's faced someone from Taiwan, I believe a Hung Gar man, as well as this Shoalin Monk, I'll aslo put out there that my sifu is 60 years young and still has his door open. That alone is amazing. My sifu doesn't brag, but the list I heard from one of his students was quite impressive. No need to list names here though -- some I knew, so I'm sure you would as well.

Also, my teacher is my teacher. A great man, but when I'm here, or anywhere outside of his class, I speak for myself and stand on my own as a martial artist. My teacher is famous from his work. I'm working on my skills to address the next generation.

My teacher's style is also e-chuan (which stands for evolution and energy fist, his creation from Ba Gua, Hsinh-i, Taiji and some styles from a few other sifu's he's studied with). I use the title Evolution Fist because I think its great. My technique has evolved so much the past 12 months, the past 18 to 20 months as well. Very different. And I'm proud to say better. I dare not claim energy yet, because I honestly do not have it. Working at it, experiencing things, but no where near energy in the sense that it is implied.

As for Bruce Lee. I was fererring to the trouble he found himself in when claiming Mantis in NYC. He thought the name would grab attention ... and it did; just not the attention that he thought.

[Ray Pina]

PS.

I don't know the caliber of players you experience out where you live, but to put Bruce on a "masters" level, when you've never been in the same room as him, is quite revealing. I'm a martial arts junkie. I've been since 1978 and have read and seen everything I could get my hands on. I know there is nothing on Bruce that you have seen that I haven't.

If you consider that a high level, you need to open up your martial world -- honestly. Bruce Lee was a martial artists and an actor. It's hard to say which he was better at, because neither of them are that standout-ish. He was succesful, but please, a master? Surely you can't be serious.

[red5angel]

hey guys, I am not sure where you heard teh story from, but a student of WJM put out a letter by WJM that explained the fight and why he had finally come out to talk about it. He didnt make it sound one sided, and he said it lasted between 10-12 minutes. In fact WJMs' description of the fight lacks alot of ego. He said Mr Lee approached him, refused to bow and told him quietly that he was going to kill him. WJM realized Bruce was serious when he tried a finger jab to the eye. After that he felt like he was in a fight for his life, and he says he had to work hard for it. He does say that after a few minutes Bruce Lee seemed to get frustrated (this fits with who Mr Lee seems to be) and began to get sloppy and angry (also fits as in Mr Lees own words he had a temper). He fought frustratingly for a few more minutes before the fight ended. WJM said there was no serious damage done to eithers bodies, but Bruce was definitely frustrated and angry. WJM refused to talk about the fight afterwards. Mr Lee never said anything specific but did implied publicly that he had won the match. WJM continued to not speak of it. Soon after the fight Bruce began to build his own idea of what martial arts was. This can be taken several ways.

The way I see it, Bruce was young and he was ****y. He was convinced he was unbeatable, although he had not even finished his wing chun training. This shows that he was a good fighter, but mayeb a sloppy martial artist. If anyone has ever had the experience of feeling confident, and then meeting someone who was ten times better then you, it is frustrating, even if your ego isnt taht large.......

[LEGEND]

Evolution Fist...it's hard to say u think he's not good either??? Since u were born at the same time i was etc...I have had the opportunity to train and go to seminars with several well known martial artists and seem some flakes and fakes. All it comes down to is what the hell can u do??? So instead of marketing your sifu...maybe u should represent him in a tourney? I'm sure there are several standup fighting tourneys in NYC...and then tell us about your experience...all u're doing now is just tossing out your Sifu credentials...reminds me of my wing chun venture in WILLIAM CHEUNG cult. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

[Ray Pina]

Working on that right now.

I don't undertand why you have brought my master into this. I do have tremendous respect for him, but this conversation has nothing to do with him. My comments are my own, based on my current understanding. Thought I do not fight in tournaments (I have enough plastic trophies thank you) I do fight Wing Chun players from the Free Mason lodge out here occasioanlly, as well as Hung Gar and S. Mantis players. Like I said, I would like to fight in the UFC or something similiar in about 2 years. I would not enter something like that without my teacher's approval, for I would not want to tarnish a remarkable reputation.

You know my southern mantis teacher, who is a disciple of a pretty well know S. Mantis sifu in NY, actually recomended my sifu to me when I told him I was interested. I thought that was classy, he has my respect as well. When was the last time you heard of that? A sifu recomending another to his student.

I actually don't think very highly of a lot of martial artists, and from your attitude, you have just made that list, but for those that do, they do get my full respect. These men are where we were and well beyond. I have and continue to work hard. These men must have put in insermountable amounts of time and money to reach where they are. I do respect that. At 60 years young, my sifu would kick your and my a$$ -- quite literaly could take your life. As a martial artist, when another is good enough that he could kill me, well, there is something to be said for that.

[Ryu]

Bruce used a double leg takedown and ground and pound to win????

This deserves a phone call! How dare he steal my methods!

:D

Ryu

[Ray Pina]

I'm bowing out of this conversation now, because it has turned into a silly cyber fued. This is the element of the web I do not like. Disagreements turn into mouth boxing. I prefer the hands on method.

[Highlander]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I'm bowing out of this conversation now, because it has turned into a silly cyber fued. This is the element of the web I do not like. Disagreements turn into mouth boxing. I prefer the hands on method.

The proper term is "Tongue-Fu".

[LEGEND]

Well my understanding is this...alot on this forum is all talk...they don't compete or even spar...if u ever want to spar in SAN SHOU which is the greatly respected CMA full contact TEST. You're welcome to come down to DC where guys like SHAOLIN TIGER and I have. I have had the opportunity to train with several CMA characters and BJJ guys etc...I could say my dad can beat your dad or my sifu can beat your sifu etc...it's just silly. The point is what can YOU do??? I doubt u'll be entering the UFC or any event any time soon...

[Shaolindynasty]

"but please, a master? Surely you can't be serious"

Never said he was a master, I don't believe in the word. To say you've mastered somthing means you 've done all you can to imporve and well.....

Anyway what I was saying is that he was equal to many who today are considered "masters".


"I don't undertand why you have brought my master into this."

We brought your master into this because every time you post it's about how your teacher is like god. My point in bringing your teacher into this was also that you respect his skills based on his challenge matches. We can't verify the fights or the outcome of them, just like most of Bruce lee's fights which you say he looses respect because of hmmm..

EF- You seem to have allot of ego about who and where you train. I understand cause you found somthing new and we all go through that phase at first. I hate to be the one to tell you that NY chinatown is not the world, there is allot out there that you don't know about. You can take this how you want but IMO you sound like a very imature martial artist and that's strange considering the length of time you say you spent in the martial arts.

Now I am also bowing out cause this is just all talk and we will probally never meet so who cares anyway.

[red5angel]

Main Entry: 1mas·ter
Pronunciation: 'mas-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English magister & Old French maistre, both from Latin magister; akin to Latin magnus large -- more at MUCH
Date: before 12th century
1 a (1) : a male teacher (2) : a person holding an academic degree higher than a bachelor's but lower than a doctor's b often capitalized : a revered religious leader c : a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices d (1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2) : a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal
2 a : one having authority over another : RULER, GOVERNOR b : one that conquers or masters : VICTOR, SUPERIOR <in this young, obscure challenger the champion found his master> c : a person licensed to command a merchant ship d (1) : one having control (2) : an owner especially of a slave or animal e : the employer especially of a servant f (1) dialect : HUSBAND (2) : the male head of a household
3 a (1) archaic : MR. (2) : a youth or boy too young to be called mister -- used as a title b : the eldest son of a Scottish viscount or baron
4 a : a presiding officer in an institution or society (as a college) b : any of several officers of court appointed to assist (as by hearing and reporting) a judge
5 a : a master mechanism or device b : an original from which copies can be made; especially : a master phonograph record or magnetic tape


The above makes conversations like this a lot more interesting. Is Bruce Lee a master? Well, according to definition, yes. Is he a master in the context of martial arts? Not sure, never met him, he never officially finished a system so the claim would be hard to make. he did teach. hmmmmm........

[Ray Pina]

Borrowing you favored quoting technique, you said :"The evidence is there. Bruce may have not been the best but he was good. I'd say equal to and better than most of the "masters" today."

As for the UFC, I'd have to say while I find some of the guys to be big and fierce in their aproach, I find them to be terribly sloppy and when push comes to shove they result in brawling. Now, I respect any man in front of me because I know one good shot and it can all easily be over, but with that said I am not afraid of the bigger man (I myself am 215lbs) -- in fact I prefer them, so I know it was technique and mental ability and not strenght. I don't think I'm ready yet, because my knew training has exposed weaknesses that weren't apparant before or simply not taken serious enough. Not until I feel ready, and not until I feel I can go in and give a proper demonstration, will I do so.

I'll say this though, the more I learn the more I realize how terribly complicated a mess fighting has been made to look by past Martial Arts experience. I'm learning now that one does not have to do as much, just make what one does count (as in, not opening with A4 in chess ... quite silly and wastefull).

Anyway, the best to all of you. I was playing Devil's advocate a bit in this thread, because, hey, I used to sit in front of the TV with my eyes glued with a PB&A sandwich and a glass of milk anytime Bruce Lee was shown on channel 5 back in the day. BUT, even then, I liked the old school Hong Kong films better -- I was an Issin-Ryu guy then, but what they did was different. I always thought Bruce was representing karate when I wa s akid and wondered why it was called kung fu -- it looked like what I was learning: side kicks, round house, pull back punching.

This thread though has made me feel nostalgic, and I'm going off to buy the one flick of his I liked, the show down at the Colloseum with Chucky.

[ShaolinTiger00]

wow Legend, thanx for the ego trip! j/k..

nothing funnier than watching a "badass" forms monkey or point fighter step up on the leitai for the first time (I've been that guy) eyes wide open. hands down at his sides, still reeling from the last attack. haymaker slapping... memories of an asswhuppin..

From that day on the real education of fighting starts. you won't worry so much about the phoenix eye fist and worry more about an effective jab/uppercut/cross combo and a mean side kick

but ... a lifetime in the martial arts is more than just full contact fighting. there is a window of time that allows you to do this and then its gone and you still need to keep the body healthy, flexible and invigorrated. this is where your training will come full circle.

[Ray Pina]

Actual Shaolin Tiger and Legend, I agree with your views on training. I believe that's how it should be. Upper cut, cross, hooh, those are powerful punches. I believe point sparring is quite poisanous.

Shoilin Dynasty, I apoligize if you sense ego coming from me. Yes, I am stoked about the workd that has opened up to me. The point I was trying to make, and didn't mention anything about challenge macthes and my teacher, you asked me, was that I honestly believe, without question, that my teacher is far superior to Bruce Lee, not even comparable. Quite laughable (my teacher was actually a training brother of his though under Yip Man). Two different types of people all together.

This is silly. I have no desire to prove anything to anyone here, though I'll glad trade hands with any one here if the opportunity should arise -- I love to mix it up, what better what to learn. It actuually looks like I'll be in Baltimore on the 28th and wanted to give Ralek a heads up for dinner and maybe some fun.

Anyway, best of luck to all of you.
Ray

Ps. I do have to say, this is the first time I've been told that coming from New York City I am nieve about the rest of the country. I would also agrue that NYC CHinatown is not a bad start if you were looking for talent on a block for block basis compared else where. But that's beside's the point.

These Bruce Lee threads, anything remotely connected to Wing Chun, always seem to cause problems.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I would say from a logical position, I would have to say that Bruce was never a Master of Wing Chun, and in his own mind was a master of JKD. If one can master JKD then he seems likely to of, however this by no means ranks him along side Masters of other arts. Mastery is not the same for all arts when you think of what they all (proport) to consist of. I think its very difficult to make corrolations between all arts as there is plenty of overlap and uniqueness in varying measures. It's not a "cut and paste" affair at all. I feel that Bruce Lee was talented, had a sense of determinatyion for developing himself and in trying to teach others some of the ideas that he felt he understood in his training, but ultimately was more famous (or at least going that way!) for his exhibitionism in his films than for his mastery of a self-made art.
from the little that I have read and understood, JKD is nothing revelatory or new, but ideas that can almost wholly be found through all Taoist/Confucian/Buddhist text.

[Shaolindynasty]

It could just be the fact that it's hard to put your thoughts on the internet without misinterperting them but......I get the feeling from allot of your posts that you feel that anything not from NY chinatown or your sifu is worthless. While the NY chinatown is a good place to train and there is allot of skill there it is not the end to everything martial. It's good that you feel that your sifu is better than bruce, I feel the same way about my sigung being far superior to Bruce.

The fact remains that a mature person in the martial arts will give respect when respect is due. I don't worship Bruce lee as a martial arts god but I do respect his philosophy same as I do many other martial artists.

[Ray Pina]

Cool.

I certainly respect good martial arts no matter where its from or who is performing it. I actuallt think there is a lot of bad MA in NYC Chinatown, as well as else where.

Well, I got to go and get some work done. Defintely made more out of this thread then was necessary and I knew it went south when Legend and Shoalin Tiger implied that perhaps me or we are point sparring, gi wearing, aluminum sword swinging Wu Shu players. Might as well call my mother ugly.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I never implied anything. You've just assumed I was talking about you.

[LEGEND]

One thing about NY chinatown...they got some good ass food...I also saw some black guy try to fight an asian guy there...the asian guy ran into his store and came out with a CLEAVER...u pretty much saw TRACK AND FIELD COMMERCIAL at this point!!! CLEAVER FU!!!