How to beat a Wing Chunner

[Kuen]

This comes from the "Martial Arts Mastery" E-zine. Hidden Secrets of Martial Arts (http://www.kerwinbenson.com/)
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How to Defeat a Wing Chun Artist



Don't Play the Attacker's Game!

We hear this all the time -- now. I remember when
only a few people, like Steve Golden, were offering
this sound piece of advice.

As I said, we hear it all of the time. So, why do
so few of us follow this sagely advice?

Because it takes work -- you have to practice defeating
other styles, while avoiding their pet techniques.

This isn't as hard as it sounds, especially when you
go against someone who is bound to their system -- more
on this in a minute.



So, here are a couple of tips for taking on a
wing chun artist:


1) Inside-Outside Hands

Many of the novice to intermediate 'wing chunners' don't
like being on the inside with their hands. And even some
of the more advanced artists work their hands to an
outside position automatically.

Once they make contact with you, don't be surprised if
they use the other hand as a check while the first hand
gets a 'better' (in their opinion) position.

This a great opportunity for you to surprise them.

Catch the wing shun artist as he or she makes a
change -- especially if the practitioner breaks contact
and leaves an opening to the body.


2) Beat On the Hands and Arms

Long ago, before Dan Inosanto disassociated himself
from his fellow Bruce Lee students, he use to come to
Eugene to give seminars.

At his first seminar, he told me/us "you wouldn't be afraid
to fight Mohammed Ali, if he didn't have any hands, feet,
arms, or legs, right?"

Dan's tactic was to beat on anything that invaded your
personal body bubble. If a punch came in, you beat
the punch with a solid phoenix eye (knuckle strike).

A side kick racing at you was the perfect excuse to
take out your opponent's shin shin.

Use this against a 'wing chunner.' A wing chun artist
loves contact -- his or her wrists touching yours.

Why don't you make your opponent 'gun shy,' so to speak.
Start pounding on hands, forearms, and wrists. Make them
afraid to reach in for contact.


3) And speaking of Wrists ...

On more than one occasion, I have heard wing chun
practitioners say, "we don't do wrist locks in
our system."


Perfect !!!


Remember, at the beginning of the article, I talked
about folks being "bound to their system?"

Well, here you go.

Just because they don't practice wrist and joint
locks, doesn't mean we can't 'practice some of our
locks on them." [Giggle, giggle]

Which locks work best?

Glad you asked.

If you ever find yourself rolling with a wing chun
artist in chi sao (sticky hands), don't play the wing
chunner's game.

On the hand that is rotating, try either the Basic
Lock when you see the hand open up (tan sao), or try
a Double Ninety (see 'Wrist Locks') if you see the
rotating hand go into a bent-arm position (bong sao).

If you are new to chi sao, my advice would be to avoid
locking the fook sao hand. Your opponent's wrist rests
on top of yours.

This fook-sao hand just tracks. As a beginner, you
probably won't be able to effect a lock before the
hand finds an opening to your body.

Stick with the rotating hand.


And remember, don't play the other guy's game.
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Goes back to what I was saying in another thread abouth how JKD people always think they know more about our system than we do. Where does the JKD crowd get all theses crappy WC people anyway? Do they ever cross hands with someone with more than a couple of years of experience? I doubt it.

[fgxpanzerz]

But why single out wing chun? Those techniques u just described "could" work on anyone or not. Depends on who yor fighting. And it isnt easy to "Pheonix eye fist" somone's punch. That takes a little hand eye coordination and some hand conditioning. Hitting the other person's limbs isnt an amazingly new idea. Sorry to diss on Dan Inosanto and his "new idea." I've been told this many times before...and I study wing chun! Everything u listed that can be done on a wing chunner is hypothetical! Anything can be done on anyone in theory.

[Dave Farmer]

1) Hard to hit through if strong bridge is maintained,even during jau sau (rolling gates).

2) Make them afraid to 'reach' for contact.
I NEVER 'REACH' for contact.

As fgpanzerz stated limb destruction is not a 'new' idea.

JKD can spend it's time 'chasing' hands. I'd rather hit the face or body.

3) We don't practice joint manipulation??? News to me.

Fook sau hand 'just tracks'..... No it doesn't.

as you say, they must've met some pretty novice practitioners.

The real way to defeat a wing chun practitioner?

Ask him about his lineage and watch him argue himself to death

:D :D ;) :D :D

regards

Dave F

[Kuen]

fgxpanzerz-

if you had actually read the article you would know I did not write it or did you just miss my comments at the bottome of the post? Also, I would guess they singled out WCK because they are JKD.


Dave-

shhhhh- don't let our secret weakness out! Everyone knows we'd much rather fight amongst ourselves anyway...:D

[reneritchie]

LOL! Funny stuff!

Rgds,

RR

[rubthebuddha]

perfect example of pathetic stereotyping.

and how does it happen? taking a few uninformed opinions as gospel. fine, go ahead and chase my hands -- you'll just wind up back at your face, because that's right where my hands are going. :rolleyes:

[old jong]

Bah!...You want to know?....All these great suggestions may work on the "trapping" type of Wing Chun only! ;)

[fa_jing]

Well, in my teacher's WC we have bad-ass wrist locks. So there.
-FJ

[Roy D. Anthony]

I had a student once that San SHou'd a JKD fella. His coach stated that he should stay away from the WCer(my Student) because we were short range, so he couldn't be reached. I heard this and told my student what was said. Then I told my student to prove him wrong. He did. The JKD guy tried to stay away, but my student using his Long Range WC skills was on him all the time. The JKD guy didn't know how to react and therefore lost the bout.
I guess many people so don't know what we are about!!!

[edward]

what a load of crap

[AndrewP]

Just the other day we were practicing basic chi-na and locks.

[Ish]

me too.
I usually do at least on lock when im training

[Kuen]

I'd personally just be happy to hear a JKD guy admit that Bruce's little sayings & philosophies were mostly WCK idioms he learned from his brothers& teachers in the Yip Man family.

[Ish]

i'd like to hear a jkd guy admit that bruce created jkd because ip man wouldn't teach him the rest of the wing chun system.

Its never going to happen tho:(

[Kuen]

good one ish. Ya know I enjoyed Bruce's movies as a kid but I've realized that if he were still alive he'd be the "Fat Elvis" of martial arts.

[red5angel]

Just so you guys know, I get this letter too, and I emailed him asking him to clarify. I told him I was a new student but that some o fthe things he talked about just didnt seem to fit with Wing Chun. Anyway, he emailed back and had some pretty good responses. It turns out he is a WC guy, and he just didnt have the room to fully explain the concepts.

[Dave Farmer]

Ya know I enjoyed Bruce's movies as a kid but i've realised that if he were still alive he'd be the "Fat Elvis" of martial arts.

absolute classic!!!!

Regards

Dave F.

[stumpydee]

I for one think that most people here should be thanking Bruce Lee for what he has done for you. It was Bruce Lee who fought for the right to teach non-chinese people martial arts. If he had not done this how many of you would actually be training in Wing Chun right now.

To the best of my knowledge Ip Man did not refuse to teach Bruce the rest of the WC system, but refused to let Bruce record the Bil jee form and the dummy set so he could learn them in the states. If i am wrong about this then please let me know but as far as i know this is some form of the truth.

And i as a JKD guy can say that a lot of what Bruce Lee was teaching came from Wing Chun and No-one will ever know what he might have been doing had he had more time to train with Ip Man and WSL in Hong Kong.

Damian

[red5angel]

sounds reasonable to me stumpydee, may I ask you a question? this is a sincere question and not a jab, but do you as a jkd guy see jkd as a 'crystalization' of Mr. Lees ideas?

[Kuen]

my family is from Belfast and Londenderry greetings!


I for one think that most people here should be thanking Bruce Lee for what he has done for you. It was Bruce Lee who fought for the right to teach non-chinese people martial arts. If he had not done this how many of you would actually be training in Wing Chun right now.

I really get tired of hearing this because it's a myth made up by the Bruce Lee legend machine and it's an insult to the Chinese who were already in this country and teaching non-Asians. Bruce Lee was a man for his times but we have the luxury of having 20-20 hindsight and as such we realize the truths behind the legend. It's time to stop passing on the myth of Bruce Lee's great altruism and begin to realize he was just a dude who couldn't make money in America as Cha Cha king, couldn't buy Yip Man into moving to California or allowing him to film the WC forms.

Bruce looked good on film but his Wing Chun was second rate. I think the mpeg of him chasing hands and calling it Chi Sao that was floating around here a while ago was a pretty good example. To me Bruce was no different than say Joe Son and his JoeSon-Do style anther 20 something grandmaster with all the answers.

[stumpydee]

Hello Red

There are a lot of people out there who think Bruce Lee was only the person and the Martial artist they saw on TV and the big screen, they beleive his ideas only span the soundbytes we all hear regularly. But i beleive there is a lot more to Bruce Lee and JF/JKD. All of Bruces Original Students will say that in Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do there was a core set of techniques which one must learn before one can reject the usless.

I think if you learn these core techniques and principles, and then you use them to adapt to any situation you are faced with without having to think about it, just do it then you are not crystalizing anything. This is not to say that JKD is the only non-classical blaa blaa, there are people out there that have turned it into a classical style simple because they practice it as such. If you use your style, any style to just react in a situation then you are freeing yourself from the style you are not following any routine or plan you are simply being yourself and reacting to the situation you are in and no style can teach you that.

That is why i don't like people saying this is better than that, and they would react this way, because it is not the style its the person using what they have learnt. Not how, where, what and from who they learnt it.

Damian

[stumpydee]

How are you,

I cant give you a full reply as i am about to leave work, and have to go to training. just wondering if you still live around here we could get together some time.

Anyway will post more tomorrow.

Damian

[red5angel]

Damien, good way to look at it. I ahve never really heard it explained that way from a JKD person. It seems sound to me, learna few techniques and adapt them to you. Not that I am JKD convert mind you, I still like the classical way! :) But good explanation none the less, it makes sense.

[Spectre]

In my opinion, what Bruce Lee always talked about with JKD, is to first learn what is in a system and learn how to perform the techniques properly. After that, decide what is useful for your build, stature, and/or ability and focus on those techniques that work for YOU. What worked for him would not necessarily work for me or you, etc.. Don't use a technique just because it is in a system. If you cannot be 100% sure that it will work for you - don't use it. Simple.

He never said 'do as I do'. If an individual wants to try to mimic Bruce Lee's techniques and skills, he must have his foundation in WC. This however is not a requirement in understanding what he was trying to say with JKD. If you are a Karate practitioner, use what is useful for you. Strip away the moves that are not practical for YOU to use. Use only what is necessary. It's kind of like striping away flowery movements. This is not saying the other moves are not useful or practical - they just may not be useful or practical for your abilities, etc..

JKD is also not about taking techniques from every style and making you own contrary to popular belief.

Not that my opinions make it true however.

Kevin

[red5angel]

What you say seems like common sense, to use an art effectively you have to hone it and make it your own. You would have to to move past your own physical boundaries.
I do however think that although Mr Lee studied WC, alot of what you see him using is more like karate and boxing......

[Spectre]

I can agree with you half-way on this.

If we are talking about what we see in the movies, than yes - you are correct. Looking hard enough at Enter the dragon though, you can see WC techniques.

If we are talking about what he used when training for a real life or death situation, I am sure you would find mostly WC techniques that were honed for his abilities.

What are you thoughts?

Kevin

[Roy D. Anthony]

Edward, are you referring to my story?
If you are, I can say that there were a lot of witnesses. since it was a public SanShou.

[red5angel]

Spectre, I agree, he uses some WC very definitely. But the few clips I have seen him training or teaching, his techniques seem to have a strong bent towards boxing. And lets not forget his obsession with kicking! I think Mr Lee had a healthy respect for anything that worked well and was powerful. I am not bad mouthing him mind you, just making an observation, obviously I do not know him, nor am I an expert!

[fmann]

Originally posted by Spectre
In my opinion, what Bruce Lee always talked about with JKD, is to first learn what is in a system and learn how to perform the techniques properly. After that, decide what is useful for your build, stature, and/or ability and focus on those techniques that work for YOU. What worked for him would not necessarily work for me or you, etc.. Don't use a technique just because it is in a system. If you cannot be 100% sure that it will work for you - don't use it. Simple.

The "useful/useless" argument is a naive one. With time, my build, stature, ability, and focus grows and changes. So how do I know a technique is truly useless? If as you say, you must first learn the system and it's proper application, then that implies you must master the system before deciding what is "useful" or "useless." However, by then, you will have understood why all of the techniques have been developed in that style and therefore realize their usefulness.

You can move past your physical boundaries only for a moment, then you grow as a person and your boundaries expand.

JKD is more like use what is needed in that particular situation. If a high kick is called for, use it. If a high kick is not needed, then don't. If a choke is called for, then choke. Expend as little energy as possible and most of all, KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Bruce Lee never said that WC didn't work for him. Just that he didn't know enough of it to maximize it's effectiveness. Therefore, he looked for other systems to add to his background to increase his efficiency and effectiveness. This philosophy of improving yourself via comparison and contrasting with different people and different methods is JKD. In a fight, compare and contrast yourself, the situation, the environment, your opponent, and utilize what is needed to win the fight. When learning, see what they do, what other styles say, and then look inward and see what is their relation to what you are learning. Etc., etc..


WC principles are still the core of all the JKD principles.

[Spectre]

Originally posted by fmann


Bruce Lee never said that WC didn't work for him. Just that he didn't know enough of it to maximize it's effectiveness. Therefore, he looked for other systems to add to his background to increase his efficiency and effectiveness.



Would you be able to direct me to an article, book, or place on the internet where it shows that he said this? I would be very interested in reading this. I never knew he said this before.

Since he was a full time student of Yip Man's for two years, I know that was enough time to learn the basic techniques within Wing Chun to defend yourself. All we ever need in Wing Chun is the basics. We only need the extreme forms when the basics did not work. His Wing Chun always seemed to work effectively in his early days of Seattle when he first arrived in America.

Interesting post however.

Kevin

[fmann]

Actually, Spectre, I had a typo. Rather than edit my post and break the flow of the thread, what I meant to type was:

"Bruce Lee never said that WC didn't work for him. _It's_ just that he didn't know enough of it to maximize it's effectiveness."

The first sentence is truth in the way he praises the key concepts of WC in both Tao of JKD and other bio's. There was a fight I think where he used his WC to defend himself, but felt it was holding him back and that started him on the road to JKD.

The second sentence is just my opinion and extrapolation. Had he stayed learning WC, he might not have questioned it's effectiveness. But the old Chinese teaching methods are usually different from the ones here in America due to the Confucian influence. I'm talking about having to treat the sifu like a God, otherwise he'll throw a hissy fit and not teach you. That kind of crap.

[rubthebuddha]

no offense taken. you couldn't be much closer to "dead-on" than that.

[JasBourne]

stumpydee said:

To the best of my knowledge Ip Man did not refuse to teach Bruce the rest of the WC system, but refused to let Bruce record the Bil jee form and the dummy set so he could learn them in the states. If i am wrong about this then please let me know but as far as i know this is some form of the truth.
This is what my copy of "Wing Tsun Dummy Techniques (as demonstarted by Grandmaster Yip Man)" by Yip Chun says:

"In the summer of 1965, Bruce Lee returned from USA to Hong Kong, brought with him his wife and his son. He paid a visit to his master, and requested him to teach the latter part of the wooden dummy techniques, which Bruce Lee did not learn during the theree years when hefollowed his master in Hong Kong before he went to USA. He further asked my father to allow him to make a shooting with an 8mm film of the complete set of Siu Nim Tau (Little Idea) techniques, which he needed for his teachings in USA. In return for his master's favour, Bruce Lee offered to buy Grandmaster Yip a new domestic flat.

However, Bruce Lee made a very serious mistake. That was, he emphasized too much about money so as to hurt his own teacher's self-respect! So Grandmaster Yip refused him...

<--- snip long 'personal' dialogue between BL and YM concerning this insult-->

...Bruce Lee returned to USA feeling bored. He didn't teach Wing Tsun anymore, because he knew he would never become the "No. 1 Man" in Wing Tsun. In order to succeed in his career, he had to set up a new style and become the "Founder" himself. So he formulated his techniques into Jeet-Kune-Do, which he taught his own students, and for which he became famous."

plus lots more
:D

[Roy D. Anthony]

JasBourne, I would have agreed with your quoting from that book years ago, however in recent months I have discovered that the book had pictures out of sequence, as much as 1 or 2 sections of the dummy form. This admittedly by Ip Chun himself. Some concern was drawn towards the Editor. therefore I would question the books authority. Perhaps if you quoted the story from a different book?
No Offense is directed towards Ip Chun in anyway. Just reiterating what he said.

[hunt1]

Thats actually an old story.Leung Ting changed sections so it would be obvious who learned from the book.Yip Chun objected or so the story goes.This may have been the start of the Yip Chun Leung Ting feud that peaked in the HK media a few years ago.

[JasBourne]

Well now, I dunno. It's one thing to get some pics out of sequence, it's quite another to go to print misquoting someone altogether. My copy is a 5th printing, 1990. I would think if Yip Chun had a problem with what was in the book, he's had ample opportunities to correct it. I have other Yip Chun books, he says nothing about this.

Anyways, does it really, truly matter? Bruce did his own thing, it wasn't WC but it did have a WC basis. I'm older now than Lee was when he died, so I'm highly skeptical of JKD. I agree with the fella who made the 'fat elvis' crack. :D

[ozestrange]

Hi

"i'd like to hear a jkd guy admit that bruce created jkd because ip man wouldn't teach him the rest of the wing chun system.
Its never going to happen tho:( [/B][/QUOTE]"

I dont think JKD guys will admit that, because it didnt happen.
Bruce Lee only trained for a couple of years in WC.
Most of his tuition was under W. S. Leung, not Yip Man.
He was "forced" to leave HK and then he created JKD.
Footage of him doing SLT <badly>shows the level of WC that he was at.!
As an athlete/fighter etc, I think he was unbelievable though.!



Mike

[rubthebuddha]

it won't happen, and it doesn't matter. bruce lee is dead and so is yip man. we have zillions of wing chun branches, many of them really good (regardless of what you think of their head sifus). whether or not you like this setup or would prefer all of wing chun to be the same with sifus all teaching the same goodness, it doesn't matter. it won't happen. so instead of wishing and hoping and wondering, let's just work on our chi sau and call it good.

[Kuen]

Martial Arts Mastery (http://www.kerwinbenson.com)
Several of you complained last week about my wing chun
article. Curious -- all of the complainers were, themselves,
wing chun practitioners.

Let me answer this in one shot -- no, I don't hate
wing chun.

No more than I do JKD, karate, any other style of
gung fu, taekwondo, or the myriad of other
styles out there.

I look for ways to counter any style or technique.

I just happened to be thinking about wing chun, last week.

Actually, it's pretty funny when you think about it.

The complaints went along the lines of,"How dare you
teach people how to beat our style ... by the way, what
you taught wouldn't work."

So, if it wouldn't work, why are these practitioners
bothered?

Didn't I just hand out false information to everyone,
concerning tactics against their style?

They should be grateful to me, don't you think?


Or maybe my ideas do have a grain of truth to them.
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Personally, I like to see this guy's kind of misinformation on the net. Anyone who thinks WC guys are all such low skill level is just handing me an advantage if I ever have to spar or fight them.
Ignorance is not always bliss, sometimes it can hurt like h*ll too!-K

[[Censored]]

1. Mention Bruce Lee. Any sentence containing "Bruce Lee", doesn't matter what about.

2. While they are distracted, kick them in the shin.

3. Run like hell! ;)

[Roy D. Anthony]

Good one Censored.:)

[bean curd]

bruce lee, yip man, leung ting and the rest.

just found this thread, so coming in late, what i find interesting in all this is what hasn't been said about what the hell went on in hong kong in the late 50's up to the mid 70's.

do any of you guys have elders that will talk to you about this stuff, i am not wing chun, so its not my place to speak of such things, i don't say i know any secrets, because when the **** hit the fan with yip man, bruce lee, leung ting etc, everyone knew about the family crap that was going on, god it was even in the hong kong papers, the hong kong martial arts associatin even had to come in on the stuff, thats how bad it got.

the only thing i'll say is - if bruce lee was so close to yip man, then where was he when he died and the funeral was happening.

the other thing about yip man he was very much from the old school, he didn't even like the idea of the movies showing gung fu, the thought it was disrespectful and showed to much to the general audiance.

oh and how do you beat a wing chun guy - SHOW UP ( J/K )

:D