Leaning question.

[red_fists]

Hi.

This is a question for ALL the internal stylists.
I know that in some TCC styles leaning is discouraged, while others allow a certain amount of leaning.

Now having studied Seiza and it being a part of my style I have a good idea as to why. Explanation is bit more detailed than found in the Tai Chi literature.

Now here start the Questions:
Is leaning allowed in BaGua & Xing Yi??
How much leaning would you say is correct??

How would the rule of "no leaning" lend itself to groundfighting??

One of the reason why I am asking we have some Postures where we lean and 1 where the Upper Body is parrallel to the ground (Punch Fist to the Ground).

Also some of our Movements appear to be bigger more expansive than other TCC styles. We tend to lift Arms a bit higher as well.

Looking forward to your Input.

[Mr. Nemo]

The way I see it, some leaning is permitted.

However, if you stand straight and have another guy pull on your outstretched arms, and you brace yourself against the pull and lean forward while you do it, there is a certain "breaking point". If you lean past this breaking point, you lose your balance and are no longer able to resist the pull. You shouldn't lean ****her than this point.

As to how the "no lean" thing applies to groundfighting, I'm not sure I understand the question.

[Sum Guye]

During a seminar with Yang Zendou, he said that, except for two postures, all postures in the Yang Tai Ji form lean slightly forward from the hips. (the back is still straight mind you, but the upper body is angled very slightly forward). After hearing him say that, I checked all photos I can find of Yang ChengFu and sure enough, he's slightly leaning forward from the waist. It's not obvious at first glance because of the sheer girth of the guy, but it's obvious once you look for it.

(the two postures without the slight forward lean:
Fan through back and Single whip.... both of those have the body bolt upright).

Leaning backwards is popular with bad Tai Chi people, but doesn't help the form or applications at all.

[red_fists]

Ok, forgot to add the definition of Seiza.

Seiza is a form of sitting or standing meditation commonly practiced in Japan.

Upper Body posture and Head suspension are identical to TCC.
Relaxed Shoulders, etc.

In Seiza it is said that the Head is suspended by a string, but the string goes further down and ties into the TanTen (Dan Tien).

The pracitioner needs to keep the upper body upright so that the "string" will not touch the sides of the Body.

So some slight leaning is permitted here , but not excessively.

[Felipe Bido]

In Xing Yi, leaning backwards and to the sides is considered a bad posture. It brings a loss of balance and rooting. However, leaning to the front is permitted, if your feet are apart by a considerable distance. In this way, your body weight drops to your center, and you can lean your body without losing balance.

The analogy of the string attached to the top of your head is used in the practice of San Ti, too.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Felipe Bido
The analogy of the string attached to the top of your head is used in the practice of San Ti, too. [/B]

Yes, it is. But does it go as far as saying that same string ties to the Dan Tien.

In seiza we imagine the Body as being hollow with the line going down Now of you would lean that line would touch the insight of the cavity.

Breathing pattern is the similar, plus you medidate on each of the 5 Elements in turn with visualisation.
But back to the topic of the Thread.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I used to practice the long yang form. When I learned the CMC from the first thing that was corrected was the slight lean.

for me do not lean, means do not lean. Of course they way this is achieved should be form an internal perspective that allows for good flow and proper centering. to be streight, just to be streight is just as bad as leaning if it is done from an extrnale prespective, it also tends to promot stiffness and tension.

I have noted that for most people the lean is directly related to the length of the stance, and weather the movement is a result of leg strength or not really being able to sink and flow into the next movement. I haven’t met to many people who can really move with out leaning.



Sounds easy but like many things its not. :)

[bamboo_ leaf]

A little more,

The classics say like a string of pearls.

What they mean is that while we maintain straightness it still is very flexible, very soft.

In the example where someone is pulling your arm the body turns along its axis in the direction of the pull. The force of the body is sunk deep into the ground allowing the other pulling the arm to feel, as if they have nothing to pull.

Not having nothing to pull they tend to float, (lose their own center) it is at this point they will have to change but it is already to late. ;)

To use any force to counter act someone pulling the arm I think is a mistake.

also a mistake to pull the finger, kids learn this very young :)

[Sam Wiley]

The Classics of Taiji, and I believe the Classics of Bagua as well, tell us not to lean to the sides and not to incline one way or another. During practice, barring the bowing of the back for power, there should be no lean except where it is unavoidable. As far as usage goes, I guess you can lean if you want to. It's not necessary for exertion of power, but some applications might call for it. Personally, I practice Punch to the Ground with a vertical back.

[Chris McKinley]

Most of the time, Baguazhang practitioners follow the same admonition to avoid leaning. There are, however, the occasional postures where leaning is integral to the technique, usually also accompanied by twisting of the body as well.

[Kaitain(UK)]

we don't lean in my Yang style - the postures are tested in all 8 directions - i.e. someone pushes you in the small-middle back and also from the rear diagonals. If you're leaning then you can't maintain the posture as the force isn't channeling down into the feet.

I think people often confuse having a "C" curved spine with leaning.

How do you keep your Kua points closed if you're leaning forwards? Or alternatively - if you are sunk into your posture then your Kua point/s should be closed, so how can you lean forwards at the same time? (I just tried to do it and ended up sticking my butt out - I guess you can fold at the waist but that isn't really leaning as much as compressing) My understanding is that the spine should be like a vertical axle so that you can rotate freely around it - leaning would make that difficult.

To me it's like turning on a weighted or unweighted heel - different schools of thought. I'm just curious as to the rationale behind it.

[TaiChiBob]

My teacher says to avoid leaning.. except where individual body mechanics force a slight lean. His analysis of this is to reference the spine to an axis about which we turn.. if the axis is leaning or bent turning will be unbalanced, turning will wobble and lose its center. Of course there are many applications and expressions of applications in the form itself that appear to be leaning.. if the practioner is "intending" to express application through the form, it may be appropriate.. Personally, i cannot express the ripple/whipping effect of bringing earth energy up through my bodyand expressing it through my arms/hands without appearing to lean at some point. Though, as some high speed photography reveals, this "whipping ripple" (i think i like that analogy) is like a sine wave, there is equal mass on either side of the centerline of the direction of the ripple (centerline of the body).. the centerline remains perpendicular while the ripple travels along that line..
From a physics perspective, even if the body appears to lean, it may be perfectly centered and perpendicular if a line drawn through the center of mass is perpendicular and intersects the earth in the center 1/3 of a line drawn between the heels. An interesting exercise is to keep the torso perpendicular and in contact with the heavy bag, then by testing various stances and leg/waist movements, see how much you can effect the heavy bag, how far you can displace it. My own experience combines rear-leg power pushing the "whipping ripple" forward with a release of "Chi" from the DanTien (it seems to me that the Chi sort of snowballs the physical expression, like riding the "sine-wave"). But, if i begin leaning, i notice a distinct drop in my ability to move the bag.
Oh, another way to train your spine to be erect is to take three rocks, 1-1/2" in dia., place one on each shoulder and one on your head .. now, see how much of the form you can do and not "lose your rocks" :)
Just another perspective from the "Far-side".. be well..
PS. At judges meetings before competition we usually don't favor leaning unless it appears to be a valid expression of application.

[Wongsifu]

basically the way i see it it is ok to lean as long as you dont break your posturing at the waist in other words your waist must aligned with your hips and kua. so you dont bend but you just lean. also you have to adjust your legs to compensate for this. if you lean really far forwards for example in a high bow and arrow stance i dont think it will do. However at the same time in a really low bow and arrow stance its much more logical to lean.

Nowadays with the diversity of how many internal teachers claim to be kosher its not possible to find right or wrong.

[crumble]

Too early to say what my teacher thinks about leaning in Hsing I, but for Water Boxing, we definitely lean. The final position of most of the short forms is a forward 45 degree angle from heel to head.

The point of the lean is delivering power while moving from the backfoot to 100% on the front foot. (In practice the power goes into the opponant, but because he isn't there you move onto your forward foot.)

But the word "lean" might convey that somehow there is straining involved. The spine is naturally straight, tailbone somewhat tucked. With 100% of the weight on the front foot, there isn't any straining, it feels very natural. Like you're "sitting" on your front leg.

-crumble

[taijiquan_student]

"I checked all photos I can find of Yang ChengFu and sure enough, he's slightly leaning forward from the waist. It's not obvious at first glance because of the sheer girth of the guy, but it's obvious once you look for it."

The reason Yang Cheng Fu leaned in a bow-posture like that was because he was so fat. I don't think he could've maintained verticality if he tried. (I'm not saying he wasn't good, just that he was obese and that this affected his posture as you can see in the photos)

[Kaitain(UK)]

too much Fist Under Elbow QiGong eh? :P

(thinly veiled dig at Sam :))

[shaolinboxer]

Leaning is fine as long as you don't lose your center. If you lean, you must still keep your opponent clinging to (or within) your space, instead of entering his. So, just compliment your lean by sinking into your center and you should be ok me thinks.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think as in many things when the rule starts to become more inportant then the intent of the idea it becomes a shackle to the mind instead of freedom for movement and sprit.

It’s funny when I help people to find their center they often feel like they’re leaning, when actually they are leaning to start with.

[Sam Wiley]

I don't think Cheng-fu had any problem standing straight up while practicing his form. There are several pictures of him practicing his form in Douglas Wile's T'ai-chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions where his back is straight up and down, and there are some where he also leans. I think that he chose to lean while doing his form. I think the lean was one of the changes he made to the Yang family form.

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

I mostly agree with WongSifu. I think it's ok to lean just as long as the 'ming men' isn't compromised. Also I think leaning is ok only in specific situations...

Leaning when blocking/avoiding an attack is completely acceptable. I think when avoiding sometimes it is necessary to lean, just as long as you have your somehting there for insurance. I wouldn't rely solely on leaning to avoid an attack. However, if one were to lean on an attack, epsecially leaning in order to reach the target then I'd definitely say that's a problem. When your force is going away from your body and you are leaning into it, a lot could be done to you to knock you to the ground. Actually I believe it does say this in the Bagua Songs... Not to lean when striking.

[Sum Guye]

how the heck can you do brush knee-twist step's application without leaning forward? Try it- you'll be amazed at how much more 'umph' you'll give your opponent.

Bamboo Leafs reference to 'like a string of pearls' is a little off of the traditional meaning (Pearls aren't soft).... the phrase is all about alignment: Imagine 9 pearls laid in a straight line on a flat table. Now try to push one end of the line to move the whole line of pearls forward. If the alignment and presure aren't perfect- the line of pearls will not remain straight.

[Chris McKinley]

Didn't Mike Myers have a Scottish character based on Yang Cheng-fu in his Austin Powers movies? Don't remember the name offhand...

...naw, just kidding....that's just mean....

[Water Dragon]

Leaning is correct, so is staying straight. It really depends on what your trying to achieve. (know the purpose behind the monement)

[Sam Wiley]

Ohhhh, Chris, that was so mean. "I ate a baby!" LOL.

Brush Knee Twist Step? How can you do it WHILE leaning? Why do you need to lean to gain power when you are striking? With internal power generation methods, you do not need to lean at all in that application.

[Water Dragon]

Sam, If you lean while doing Brush Knee, it becomes a variation of the Shuai Chiao throw "Diagonal Cut". In this instance, no lean = no throw. If your leading and redirecting energy, you do keep the back straight.

[Sam Wiley]

"Brush Knee and Twist Step, seeking to strike him off center."

...I don't recall anything about throwing, unless you count the lock and strike as a throw if it rams him face-first into the ground.

[Mark M]

If you look at photos of Chen Fu's postures you will see that the ones where he is "leaning", his body is at a straight line to the ground, he is not bent at the waist. Some postures require this forwrd "lean" while others should be "vertical" My teacher was his student and this is the way he taught. It was not optional to "lean" or not, it was a matter of being correct.

[bamboo_ leaf]

It can be done as part of a throwing action or many other actions I think of. To which I would add if your movements are a result of really following the other then this really puts a different focus on how many techniques are done and explained.

Going back to the string of pearls, as sum guy, said "if placed on a table it would take a very precise force to move them and keep them straight."

This idea I would say is based on bone alignment a starting point for what follows.

What follows is the idea of the mind holding everything together like a string of pearls all the parts are connected by the intent of the mind. This is used to follow and neutralize the others actions.

The other falls out by the intent / result of their own actions

in any case i was taught not to lean in any posture, ;)

[Kaitain(UK)]

ditto - and I study traditional Yang family so it's obviously something that varies by teacher as much as by style (or you could say that most Yang 'instructors' can't tell their arse from their elbow - but that would be a political statement so someone else can say it :P)

string of 9 pearls - from the classics and interpretations I've read I took the imagery to mean:
'no matter where one of the pearls goes, no matter how hard or fast it is pushed or pulled or thrown - the other eight pearls will always maintain the same fluid link. Equally, when one pearl is moved then they all move.'

[Sum Guye]

Wow, you're really missing out on a lot if you didn't know brush knee twist step is a throw. I've learned several applications for every movement in the Yang 108 (Large and small frame) and almost each 'movement' or 'form' can send the opponent to the ground if done correctly.

Pulling off the throws in a non-cooperative setting is where great skill comes in... but almost every form can be a throw.

[Sam Wiley]

Considering that that quote is from Yang Ban-hou, I don't think I missed out on much.

Try pulling off an arm lock and strike in an uncooperative setting. It gets a bit more complicated.

I'm not big on throws. If they can get back up after I've touched them, I've done something wrong. All the throws I like throw him face-first into the ground or take his head or face and ram them into the ground, or else break the neck during the throw. I think too many people place far too much emphasis on being able to throw or push someone without being able to harm them, and every time I hear of throw, that's what I picture, some gullible twit trying to throw an attacker and not hurt him and that guy gets back up and tears their head off.

I prefer a much more pragmatic approach to the postures. Instead of trying to make each one into a special throw that's going to get your a$$ kicked, why not use the strike to put him down and out?

Let's examine a few applications, shall we?

#1: Block a right punch with your left P'eng, punching him in the throat as you do so. Then wrap your right hand over the top of his right elbow, and lever his arm upward, slamming your raised right knee into his shoulder, then wrench his arm out of its socket. You could also simply lock his arm instead of tearing his shoulder up, but that raising motion of the hand to the side of the head lends itself SO well to seriously messing him up. After the shoulder tear, you could strike him with the left palm. It really doesn't matter where if you've just ruined his shoulder, though.

#2: Block a left punch with your right hand, and strike him in the chest on the pectoral. This one's basic and taught pretty much everywhere.

#3: Snatch a punch out of the air with your right palm, cranking it downward and twisting it, and strike him in the temple. Not the "softest" application, but one that has saved my bacon before.

These are all fighting applications. They are all Taiji applications, no need to prop up your art with applications from another art at all, even Shuai Chiao.

[shaolinboxer]

" All the throws I like throw him face-first into the ground or take his head or face and ram them into the ground, or else break the neck during the throw. I think too many people place far too much emphasis on being able to throw or push someone without being able to harm them"

IMO, neck breaking is for murders and mercenaries, not martial artists.

Throwing someone and not being able to harm them is very different from throwing someone and being able to not harm them.

[Sam Wiley]

And you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. I never said Taiji wasn't brutal. Breaking bones and joints, and the neck is just another one of these, is all a part of martial arts. Breaking someone's neck is extreme, but there are some times these types of things might be needed. In the past, martial artists were often paid bodyguards and mercenaries.

What good does it do to throw someone who has pulled a knife on you if you are not going to hurt him? Do you really think that just putting them down is going to help? I can throw people all day long and not seriously hurt them. Believe it or not, that stuff is easy. I'd much rather bank on a technique I KNOW will hurt someone than one I know will NOT. But you are more than welcome to risk your life by trying not to hurt someone bent on hurting you. Your life is yours, to save or throw away.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Sam Wiley


What good does it do to throw someone who has pulled a knife on you if you are not going to hurt him? Do you really think that just putting them down is going to help? I can throw people all day long and not seriously hurt them. Believe it or not, that stuff is easy. I'd much rather bank on a technique I KNOW will hurt someone than one I know will NOT. But you are more than welcome to risk your life by trying not to hurt someone bent on hurting you. Your life is yours, to save or throw away.

Sam, I don't think you've ever experienced a good throw. Go check out David Lin's group in Atlanta. I've been hit hard, but the first time I was thrown properly with NO FORCE ADDED it opened up a whole new world to me.

Seriously Sam, you're are so close to what may be the best Shuai Chiao in the country, if not the world. It would be a shame to pass that up.

FYI, Brush Knee done corerectly will piledrive you directly onto your head, if you so choose.

[GLW]

The throw in Brush Knee is just like one from the Zha quan system.

Basically, you use it:

say opponent has right leg forward in right bow stance (fron stance)

You obviously deal with the entering aspect and neutralizing any attack...but you step in with your left leg into bow stance placing your leg next to the opponent's on the outside of his right leg...(you are left leg to his right leg).

As you step and shift weight to this, the brush is actually a trap of the opponent's leg being pushed into your own leg as a trapping area.

The Push then goes against the opponents chest to throw him back using the trapped leg as a leverage point.

This move is also what the fancy palm to in front of the lead knee with the other hand extended forward into a knife palm strike is doing in Changquan.

It was well used by Grandmaster Wang Ziping in fighting a Russian Wrestler in Beijing in the first part of the 20th century.

(don't know if I described it well...hard to explain movements without 10,000 words.)

It is simply ONE of the options.

[Sum Guye]

you wrote "If they can get back up after I've touched them, I've done something wrong. "

doesn't 'getting back up' imply someone has meet with the floor?
(after what some extremists might consider, having been thrown?)

[Shooter]

They are all Taiji applications, no need to prop up your art with applications from another art at all, even Shuai Chiao

Sam, Shuai-chiao is as much within the scope of Tai Chi as Chin-na. It all starts to look the same once you get past the idea of styles dictating action. If I apply an arm-bar like Juji-gatame or Ude-gatame, a guy will say, "Yeah, but that's Judo"...HA! It's all Chin-na. Rhino-looks-at-the-moon may end up looking like o-guruma or harai-goshi. Swalllow-soars-to-the-sea may end up looking like Uchi-mata. I've never studied Bagua besides walking the circle and doing some postures for more than 10 years. I've never studied Judo, but I've scored points in competitive BJJ with Swallow, and the ref called it Uchi-mata. It's all a matter of perception. That ties in with the idea of leaning. Brush-knee-twist-step can be a strike or a throw, but it isn't confined to any stylistic nuance in order for it to be effective. It can be a straight-right counter against a leg-kick, or it can end up looking like Tai-otoshi in the case of a throw. If I have to lean to make either one work, that's what I'll do. I never lean in my form, but function takes precedent to satisfying some pedantic di(k on the sidelines. ;)

General comments on the whole idea of training Tai Chi for martial application:

In Tai Chi, there's no such thing as techniques or stylistic applications...Just movement and energy management principles. If master so-and-so did something a long time ago, that's his thing. To formulate a paradigm for your own practice around what someone else did a hundred years ago is to live dangerously and vicariously. You're living outside of your own reality. If you're on the same level as master so-and-so, then you're wasting your time here...most of us will never "get it" :p

If, on the other hand, you're just like the rest of us mortals, then you have to have a more moderate paradigm formulated around your own reality. The only way to know how real it is is to get on the mat or in the ring and hash it out there. All this talk about martial application is just that...talk. If martial application is nothing more than a hobby wherein you collect an encyclopedia of techniques, no problem...just don't delude yourself with that collection of "knowledge" until you proof it against a skilled opponent. The same holds true for those of us who teach...my reality isn't what I would expect from a student. I have to consider their reality and not place a false horizon in front of them.

Maybe I'm at a very basic level where I'm missing something so many others seem to have a command over, but my reality is what I understand from getting on the mat and in the ring, and pressure-testing in the kwoon.

End of rant...:)

[Drone]

Not sure what happened to the talk on leaning, but I was recently told by my sifu that because of my build that I should have some foward lean. Yeah pretty simplistic I know but I am new at this.

[Water Dragon]

I used to train in Evanston. Who are you working with, Drone?

[taijiquan_student]

Be carefull with leaning. It may be all fine and dandy when you're doing your form, or other solo stuff, but once in tuishou leaning will probably get you pulled if the other guy is good. Also, in sanshou, leaning is a great way to get them to think "I'm tired of holding you up" and have them empty where your pressure is and throw you right down to the ground. And because you had that forward movement from leaning, you hit even harder than if you weren't.

I'm sure you can find a way to lean in your practice and stay internally connected, but I just can't imagine making contact with someone while leaning. It's just too risky. (not that I don't lean ever. I really need to fix that :( )
----------------------------------------------
on throwing...

Many people here are saying they want to put them out, seriously,if they are in a situation like that. If you know how to throw someone, and land them on their kidney or back (assuming they don't know how to fall) that will hurt them sufficiently to give you enough time to get away. You don't always have to square off and have the dramatic,Thunderdome kung-fu death-match.

On the other hand, I personally wouldn't try for a throw. I would use strikes or knee kicks and all that stuff, mainly because I'm smaller.

[Braden]

http://homepage.mac.com/mancheta/iMovieTheater4.html

[Sam Wiley]

I do that same maneuver as a strike, and it's listed above. But there's absolutely no reason to lean with it, not even for pure physical power. It's a strike to the pectoral or neck for a KO.

I never said there was no throwing period in Taiji. What I said was that there was no need to prop up Taiji with another art. And them meeting the floor doesn't always have to do with being thrown.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

It seems to me that to lean requires that one aspect of the spine has to compensate for the change from vertical alignment. Its simple physics that the angle of gravitational acceleration is constant in regards to our bodies. So to lean requires that I "borrow" energy from somewhere else. The only way that my spine can be its most relaxed (when upright) is to have the centre of mass of the head, the chest and the pelvis all aligned.

It would be very hard to find maximum song if you were leaning. So I would say for Taijiquan that verticality is of first importance.

Xingyiquan and Baguazhang are different, as both sometimes "bend" the structure.

As for applications, I have been taught that every movement in Taijiquan has at least one hit, kick, chin-na, shuai-jiao and fajing application. Usually there are very many of each.

[Daniel Madar]

At least one classical style of taiji does lean. You can see the lean in the brush knee to the left.

[shaolinboxer]

Just noticing that the clip entitled "circle throw" is the same technique as "ude-mawashi".

Nifty :).

[YiLiJingLei]

In BaGua & Xing Yi,(and other styles), they mention "Xiong Bei" (Bear's Back"), which implies a back & neck that is straight (not bending/hunched/lurching), the chest concave, shoulders rounded and pushing/extending down & through the arms; there is a slight lean forward, that helps keeps the whole body "Coiled & loaded" to exert & recieve force. The waist/tailbone is curled under & forward to add compression in stepping/stance and connection between upper & lower body in the center/abdomen. Short Frame Wu Tai Ji people lean slightly forward to exert force in several techniques--they don't bend the body. The Spine should stay straight, from tail-bone to crown. If there isn't a slight lean forward, then there's some "slack" in the center, and the body is slightly disconnected, causing a lack of potential power and "drag time" in execution of technique, especially stepping and in driving out. This is different than the back "hunching" forward, which is not useful or safe; allowing the head to lurch forward ("Leading with the head") is also dangerous, a sign of lack of focus, sensitivity, balance, and power.
Does that help?

[Paul Eugene]

I train 7 star mantis right now but from time to time i still practice the wu tai chi i learned as taught to my instructor by kwong ming lee. you can check out their website too but basically it gives a pretty good physics based reason as to why there is a lean in this particular style. we also did some drills in class to help illustrate the force applied in the "ox plow" stance. when done properly it feels like you're not even doing anything but your partner goes back. obviously it's different when people are cooperating with you and someone brought up that by leaning you give someone the chance to pull you off balance. well we also did a drill that illustrated why you keep your feet parallel instead of having the back foot at a 45 degree angle. when your feet are parallel and your but is tucked,etc. it feels like a person in oxplow is pretty stable and during push hands yes if you go forward then you will be pulled on your ass but anyone who know what they're doing will interpret the lean as incoming force instead of saying "whoa he's leaning, i can pull". as long as your force is directed forward you can be pulled even if your back is perpendicular to the floor.

cool, sorry about the long post. cool forum

[Kaitain(UK)]

you're wrong -

I can apply forwards force and then as soon as I feel someone pulling I can root their pull into my front foot.

If I'm leaning forwards this isn't possible.

If someone uses pull-down I am able to root their pull-down into my feet.

If I'm leaning forwards this isn't possible.

I'm not interested in physics theories - I've been the person trying to root and the person trying to pull - it feels wrong from either perspective.

If my rear foot is pointing forwards then my Kua point cannot be open, or if it is open then my knee cannot be in correct alignment - either way I'm not going to generate any sort of power/energy from the floor.
But it might work for some styles - I would argue that it violates some of the principles of Taiji, but my understanding is limited to Yang style.

[Paul Eugene]

I suppose i'll have to be more precise. In wu tai chi you have three basic stances:

seven star: all the weight is in the back leg

neutral: weight is evenly distributed between both legs. use it to transition from seven star to ox plow

ox plow: weight in front leg. super lean

now i would first argue that if you are leaning and can't root the pull into your foot then you do not have your feet parallel which enables this to be so. as i said we did this in class and it's true. before you come back with another "you are wrong" maybe you should try it correctly, just because it doesn't feel right doesn't mean it's wrong. Many people say that the postures of internal styles are uncomfortable when they first start.

also i'm just a beginner so could you please elaborate on why having your legs parallel in the bow stance is violating the principles of tai chi? Especially since according to the history of this style, the wu stlye was developped from the yang style, the main reason for the difference in stances being the manchu uniforms. Pictures of wu chien chuan show his feet as parallel and the same for ma yueh liang and no one claims that they could not fight or were not doing tai chi. If it didn't work then someone would have proved their ineffectiveness by now.

on a side note i've seen the videos of the wu fast set and there doesn't seem to be much leaning there, so maybe it depends on the type of force.

one more thing, if you look at xin yi liu he quan practivioners they definitely lean and i don't thing anyone can claim that they have no power.

[Paul Eugene]

Ok I was a little quick to respond. I was all pleased with my post and you shot it down man. ****.

You seem to know more about this than I do and I've done a tiny bit of yang style but I've never tried to do push hands in the yang style and i really don;t know much about opening the kua.

however what i do know is that wu style is recognized as an effective martial art and that as long as you have the coccyx tucked and follow the other principles of tai chi then there should be no reason to question it. The lean is not something you do on purpose and i have problems doing it right. Most of the time i end up untucking my butt or my hips are skewed. But if your feet are parallel and you follo tai chi principles when you straighten the back leg, transition through neutral and sink your weight into the front leg, lean just happenes naturally and to me it is does not feel wrong when done properly.

whew,

paul

"I'm always unhappy.";)

[Mark M]

Paul Eugene, You are right! Some postures require the "lean" to establish a straight line to the ground. others require that the back be vertical. it requires a good teacher to know the difference.

[Kaitain(UK)]

sorry if I made you feel bad - I just type responses in a hurry when I'm at work - I tried to clarify that what works for your system doesn't work for mine, but that doesn't make you wrong - it's only wrong in my system. For instance there is no point in the Yang form where the weight is 50/50 - we do single whip 70/30 but Wu does it 50/50 - my way is incorrect in your style and vice versa.

What I was getting at was your statement:
"as long as your force is directed forward you can be pulled even if your back is perpendicular to the floor"
Which I feel to be incorrect - if I'm correct in my posture then the pull doesn't move me because it is rooted into my front foot - I'm in control of the energy still. If I lean then that pull takes me off balance - I guess because my CoG is further forwards and beyond the point where I can root the energy.

But as I said - it's just differences. I don't understand how it can work for Wu stylists but I've only ever taken one Wu class so I'm not an authority. Everything I say is from a Yang perspective.

Wu may have been born from Yang style but if it wasn't sufficiently different it couldn't be called another style could it?

WRT leaning - we don't lean in most postures, but I guess in certain postures you have to adjust in order to keep correct alignment - Snake Creeps Down, Pick Up Needles etc. It does require the best teacher to know when to do it - yourself. An exercise a lot of people use to test it:
go into Pick Up Needles From Sea Bottom (I hope you know what I mean) - then get a partner to try and pull you down by the right arm - if it pulls you off balance then you are leaning, if not then your spine is straight. Then get them to push in the back - again if you can't root the force and you topple then you are leaning. Do this in all eight directions. This works for any posture and is one of the surest ways to make sure you're adhering to basic tenets of Taiji (strength in eight directions).

note: the test on Needles is funny - you learn that although you are crouched and driving force down, you need to extend up inside the body to hold the posture correctly. Bit of a revelation to me.

My spine is always straight btw,

I tend to find it difficult to keep my chest undulated and back rounded if I lean...

something funny - just tested some postures to see if I leaned at all in the crouching stances - just in time for a bunch of people to walk past my office door and see me. I have some explaining to do come lunchtime :)