Earth Dragon, Qi and Kung Fu [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

EARTH DRAGON

02-06-2002, 08:58 AM

Thanks for you interest. Actually its just the opposite, every true kung fu system has 2 sides and many parts of each side to make it a whole.
This includes the hard and soft sides as in martial and medical.
Some examples of martial would be kungfu,Tai chi, iron palm, chin na fa, shuia chiao, weapons etc.etc
Some examples of medical qigong, herbology, tui na, bone setting, accupuncture, etc.etc

So you see one cannot exsist without the other, Just like yin & yang. The problem is it takes so long to learn just certain aspects of an entire system teachers of todays world concentrate only on a small part of their system. Mostly due to lack of time and sometimes due to lack of knowledge either in their own training or their teachers. I could not imagine not training one without he other, they must be balaced and intergrated.

In ancient china kung fu shr fu's were always trained to be doctors first, learning the fighting aspect of their system always came last, this for many reasons but mostly due to the amount of time it takes to become profcient in the medical training.

So I would suggest if you have the opportunity to start qigong practice right away. When you can use your cultivated chi from qigong training and incorporate it into your martial techniques they take on a whole new life.

As my teacher always says kung fu practice without chi flow is like an empty egg all you have is the shell, external with no substance.

As for myself I went outside my system for qigong, partially becuse I found that 8 step praying mantis had limited medical qigong, but mostly while living in chinatown SF i was lunck enough to make freinds with a world famous qigong master yen chu feng from bejing. We becmae good freinds and taught each other our language and I used to drive her to patients and watch everyday as she healed people and then asked her to teach me.... that was 6 years ago and she now lives with me and my wife in buffalo NY.
Her art is called jin gon tzu li gong it's her family art and it is a extremly powerful qigong that uses techniques to shoot your chi into your patient inorder to rebalance thier chi stagnet or unblanced flow. It can cure almost everyhting diasese that exsist including, cancer, systic frybrosis, aids, defomaties, pancreatic aisrertus, sickle cell anemeia, brusitus, rhemithoid arthritis and many many more.
I hope this helps you understand the importance or a well rounded system and the neccessity of both sides of the coin. Please let me know what you think I would be happy to answer any question that arises. your freind E.D

woliveri

02-06-2002, 11:54 AM

When you can use your cultivated chi from qigong training and incorporate it into your martial techniques they take on a whole new life.

Ok, this is what I'm talking about. Cultivation vs Use. A couple of questions.

1. Based on TCM, from your viewpoint, how is qi cultivated?
a. Is qi cultivated from internal or from external?
2. Does not practicing external MA use qi?
3. Doesn't healing also use qi?

If 2 and 3 are true then the cultivation must be greater than expending. Otherwise depletion will occur.

Please comment.

woliveri

02-06-2002, 11:59 AM

One other question. You mentioned you had to go outside your school for another qi gong for whatever reason. Does your qi gong teacher (Master Yen Chu Feng) practice kung fu or any external chinese martial art?

EARTH DRAGON

02-06-2002, 09:30 PM

I will try to answer your questions without getting to deep or off topic for I tend to be long winded at times.

1.chi is cultivated through breathing, mediation, visualization, excersise and food.

1a. chi can be cultivated from both. You start by cultivating the chi in your body. Higher levels are taken from around your body i.e wei chi, and highest levels are taken from the cosmos.

2.confused by your question???

3. yes of coarse healing uses chi, as does the knowledge of where to shoot the chi or unlock points in the body. we use 365 points when we do a treament. not all the time for instance if your hand needs treament then obviously there is no need to unlock leg or back points. However techniques and physical stimulation are also used not only chi but ever one is different.

True you cannot give more treaments without recharging sort to speak, when I do a lot of pateints I feel drained, but we have various excersises that we do to build our level back up that I perform ever night for the past 6 years, this keeps my health and immune system at its peak.

My qigong teacher does play tai chi for roughly 35 years and yoga for 20 but no martial or external, however I asked her one time about using her skills for hurting or defending herself and she replied NO! we dont do that! I never defend I am too strong, and I said well what if it happened, she said she could shoot chi and take out their left side just by stimulating the arm greater yang meridian which causes paralization and cerebral brachymetropia.
I dont know if you are having a hard time grasping this but please check out the picture on my website under photos/masters and look at the picture of me shoving a 9"needle through my leg without pain or bleeding which we demonstrated at a cancer hospital and they said it was medically impoosible yet they witnessed it with thier own eyes but could not explian it....

I hope this explians some of your interest in qigong please let me know thanks E.D

woliveri

02-06-2002, 11:46 PM

Ok, let me tell you where I'm at so you'll better understand the root of my questions.

It is my understanding that the first part of training qi gong, i.e. developing from inner, is based on food and breathing. As you can see from the character qi is divided into 2 parts. 1. mi (uncooked rice) below and qi (air, steam) above. This is an important concept. I see it, in relation to the body, as lungs (qi) and spleen (mi) which in combination create qi. That is, we eat and breath and get qi (simplified explaination). External exercise (including external martial arts) depleats or uses qi as we exercise. We then eat and rest and get back our qi. This is a cycle of 1:1 ratio (in general) as I see it. This is why I think it's counter productive to practice external martial arts if someone wanted to be a true qi gong master and especially to treat patients. That is, to truely get to an advanced level and get qi from the external or cosmos as you mentioned, since an external MA will be on the 1:1 ratio, his/her channels cannot be opened to handle more and more qi, accumulate and store qi. I've practiced various qi gong exercises (standing, moving, sitting and forced) over the last 10 years or so and have had great difficulty due to a blockage and a weak spleen from birth (I'm currently getting Chinese herbal treatments which have helped but the road is long). I've had conversations with a senior Taiji student who dissagrees with my model of qi gong understanding (lungs/spleen scenario) which I take him to mean qi can just be gotten from external sources if the initial channels are openned.

Please offer any comments.

spiralstair

02-07-2002, 02:12 AM

External exercise(including kung fu) builds the general state of health over time. If it was truly a 1:1 ratio then one would observe no change in a person's general condition since everything stays equal.
Sincere and longterm correct practice will cause an obvious improvement in the ability to work in the anaerobic(without oxygen) and aerobic(with oxygen)realms.
The practitioner's ability to process nutrients(uncooked rice side of qi) will improve along with their assimilation of oxygen into red blood cells(the air side).
Most important for long term qi development is the vibration(shock) that martial movement produces in the practitioner's body, stimulating the skeletal system to strengthen and the bone marrow to become more dense.
All of the above will produce a stronger 'potential' qi emitter, especially through time if the practitioner does the more difficult 'internal' work involving mind and emotion.
The final benefit to a martial practice for one already involved in healing is its usefulness as a means of discharging 'negitive' qi picked up in the 'exchange' with the patient. Those healers who disregard the discharging negitivity side to their practice do so at their own, and future client's, risk.

woliveri

02-07-2002, 08:41 AM

spiralstair,
I understand your comments on the 1:1 ratio and can agree. However, I have never met an external MA Master who reached the level of a Qi Gong or Taiji Master in their Qi development. I still believe the practice of external martial arts is counter productive to being a qi gong master. Even Earth Dragon's Qi Gong teacher does not practice external Martial Arts at all and according to him has reached a high level. I would be interested in her comments regarding the practice of external ma and qi gong.

EARTH DRAGON

02-07-2002, 09:09 AM

My comment would have been very close to spiralstairs but he expalined it far better than I could have so I will let you use his post to understand how I feel.

As far as the external internal thing, again I feel like everyone specializes in one certain aspect of their art and focuses most of their time on that one part. That could be why many masters are famous for one thing or another. Our Lifespan is not long enough to become profeicent in both internal or external so we must choose which one to excel in, unfortunaly most internal practioners dont realize this until a level of maturity has been gained. Simply becuse the facination in youth of the external.

I use this as a loose example but it seems to fit. A lawyer cannot practice all parts of the law so they choose one area to specialize in but that doenst mean that they cannot do well in catagories outside their field. And still must have knowldge of all or both.

As times are far different then in ancient china it is hard to find 12 hours in a day for practice in modern times, so the level of todays masters has not reached that of yesteryear. I don't think that anyone has the time to sufficiently put the required time in to truley reach master level in either art. Does this mean to only practice one?... perhapes but remember Damo came to shaolin to teach the monks the (shii soei ching) and the (yi gin ching) inorder to become strong when he found them weak from meditiation. He taught them to have a strong body (external) as well as strong mind (internal) in order to live by ying&yang if you have too much of one without the other your imbalanced, going against the direct opposite of the basics of eastern beliefes... so ask yourself a question............ does practicing one without the other cause imbalace in oursleves??????????????

isol8d

02-07-2002, 09:59 AM

My friend didn't recall the name off the top of her head, but I just went over the movements, and their are 18 overall. 18 Lohan or something like that would be my guess. I'll try to get more specific information when I am at home.

woliveri

02-07-2002, 10:33 AM

isol8d,
The exercise you are speaking of is called Taiji Qi Gong in 18 Forms. I believe the first two movements are:
1. raise arms in front of the body vertically and lower them
2. raise arms in front of the body to horizontal then expand sideways then the reverse back down.

Correct?

woliveri

02-07-2002, 10:49 AM

I don't think that anyone has the time to sufficiently put the required time in to truley reach master level in either art.

This is incorrect. I know at least one American who is quite high level if not Master level at his young age (45+ or so). I think it's entirely possible.

does practicing one without the other cause imbalace in oursleves??????????????

I don't believe so. Take two exercises such as Da Mo Yi Jin Ching and Wuji Qi Gong. Both internal exercises which complement each other.

EARTH DRAGON

02-07-2002, 10:59 AM

I guess it depends on how you classify mastery. To me it means that one has perfected everyaspect, knows everthing about their art and cannot learn further. The reason I disagree with this in modern times is the neccssity to work and have a family which takes away from learning time. Hermits that spent much of the day praticing could each that level in 45 years not todays man. I am not saying that he is not exceptional in what he does, but a lot of times we label master as a rank not as level.

If you find that arts can complement each other then why do you not agree that internal and external can?

Do you practice qigong for selfproficeintcy or for medical practice?

woliveri

02-07-2002, 11:21 AM

I disagree with your definition of mastery. There can never be a situation when one cannot learn more no matter what level he/she is.

Da Mo Yin Jin Ching and Wuji Qi Gong are both internal exercises. Da Mo cannot be compared to external MA. My position is that for one to reach a high level of Qi Gong such as your teacher, external martial arts would inhibit that goal.

Do you not view your teacher as a master of her art? What is her position on external MA as I've presented it here?

BTW, My current focus of practice is health and longevity. Later, higher levels of qi gong.

isol8d

02-07-2002, 12:24 PM

wolveri -

Those would be the first two techniques and the name taiji qi gong does look like it would fit. I think that Tommy called it chi kung, but that's his preference.

woliveri

02-07-2002, 01:03 PM

Chi Kung and Qi Gong are just phonetic differences. Same same

Stacey

02-07-2002, 03:30 PM

hermits? Ok, be a hermit, life isn't any different, if anything, we have lots more leisure time than the ancestors of old. The only difference is that they lived in hicksville and the only exitement was when someone came through town to challenge you. That was your status. So instead of jerking off on some forum for 6 hours a day, they were "playing kung fu" Lets also not forget that they coulnd't just pay, they were indendured servants, so they paid far more. Go anywhere where there is nothing to do except martial arts and people will be good. If everybody on your block knows all the same techniques and has chi, then you bet your gonna work harder and come up with some better techniques. Its just human nature.

The past wasn't better, people had all the same possible trappings, they didn't have t.v., but they had gossip and ancient chinese romance novels and crops. So whats the difference?

EARTH DRAGON

02-07-2002, 04:58 PM

Actually yi gin ching taught by damo was intened to strengthen the mucles and tendons of the body, so actually it is considered more external then internal for the emphasis on the pysical state or the body.

What do you consider master a rank or a title or what?

As for my teacher she is very old fashion chinese and is extremly humble and does not concern to call herself anything, those are for american's and people that have something to prove and used to boost one's ego's

With all due respect, I am starting to veiw your questions and posts as argumentive rather then a genuine sense of obtaining knowledge or just comparing opinons and experience with each other. I first thought that you had a interest in my art or just wanted to learn more but it seems as though you have your mind made up and are just looking to justify your means of understanding. I aplogize if I am wrong and will sincerly regret telling you how I feel, but I seem to be picking up a hostile vibe in your reponses that always seem to disagree with me. Again if I am off track I am sorry, but most people ask questions to gain knowledge not to question the person with whom they asked.

May I ask what promted your post orignally?

woliveri

02-07-2002, 06:41 PM

Earth Dragon,
You are way off track. I'm not trying to be hostial at all. I am interested in your Qi Gong but not the PM but due to the distance between us I have held back posting that interest unless your teacher makes it out this way at all. Please don't read anything into my writings. Most of the time I have little time to post and the writings may seem short. However, I will be direct with you if I feel we start dancing around an issue. The Master topic for instance. In your profile you use the words master. This is ok and I have no problem with it but it is contradictory to what you posted above. Perhaps "teacher" would be a better word for master. I studied with a qi gong "master" (my word) who said he would rather be known as teacher. Please call him teacher, he said. I think perhaps this is better since as a teacher we only are older and have more knowledge than our students. This does not mean we are better but it also leaves room to learn more. I would always rather position myself to learn more. Your qi gong 'teacher' sounds like a great person.

The original question still stands. I have always been thought that practicing external martial arts (kung fu) would inhibit advancement in qi gong. Since I see from your bio that you do both and as such you are in a great position to help me understand. I would be greatly interested in your qi gong teacher's position on the subject. Can a person who practices both reach a high level in qi gong or does practicing kung fu inhibit advancement in qi gong?

As far as Do Mo goes, yes, it is a muscle and tendon change exercise but there is only slight tension for each move otherwise the qi and blood cannot move. I still classify this as internal. I see Kung Fu where the cardiovascular system is worked at a high rate as external. Or running, biking, swimming, boxing, all I see as external.

One other comment. There is nothing wrong to argue a point. This is how we learn. One person offers one view and the other person offers another. It is through this dialog that people learn. It is how I learn and I've often found truth in people I argue with and I then hold on to those truths.

I hope I have better stated myself here. Please let me know if I haven't.

Thanks

EARTH DRAGON

02-07-2002, 09:59 PM

My sincere apologies, and quite frankly glad I was way off track. I was hoping to express to each other our knowldge and understanding and not get into a internet finger pointing contest.

As far as the master thing goes yes I refer to my two teachers as masters.When I am speaking to a third party. They are both chinese and learned in china, they both hold over 30 years of knowledge and both are from famous lineages, and have reached higher levels in their art than anyone else living today.
I guess this would classify them as masters in american terms but again one prefers not to be called anything and the other takes pride in the title. I guess I still feel like "master" means you have mastered every technique in your art, but again it can be used to describe a shrfu's teacher instead of saying shiyi.
However I will be honest and say that in advertising my school I do perfer to say I studied with a chinese "master" since it is good for seperation from money making mcdojo's that advertise school owners as ex marines who learned hand to hand combat and now teach these fighting taticts to the public. So maybe I am a bit guilty of using the double standard of the term "master" But again it seperates me from the classic americanized mentality.

To touch on external inhibiting the chi. I still find that it gives my art balance. I have found that my chi feels stronger when I am physically in shape like days that I practice forms. Now that is not to say that it is just because of the loosness or warmming up of the body, though it might be but again it is my belief that you should train both aspects of the arts internal as well as external again like yin & yang. Their has to be a balance of nei chi and wei chi.
To limit yourself by practicing only part of your art I feel would not serve it justice. Just as practicing on one side of the body is not recommended thus out of balance. I am not sure what level that it is you wish to obtain but for me the ability to heal or aliveate pain without physically touching my patients is a level that I never thought I would reach, granted their are many higher levels in the art of qigong but my teacher says that you can only make your chi so strong. The higher levels depend on outside forces, i.e god, cosmos, universal chi etc etc.

You also said this "I see Kung Fu where the cardiovascular system is worked at a high rate as external."
Then please explain Tai chi chuan! This is considered a internal art yet I sweat profusley when I play the set a couple times and my heart rate reaches a cardiovascular level quite quickly. So I would have to say walk the circle of bagua 200x and ask your self is this an internal or an external excersise?So I dont think it is that black and white, for things look internal can be external and visa versa.

Last but not least , I truly agree with you about disagreeing! actualy I have a few times agreed to disagree. I was not saying that opinons wernt valid and that I am right, for in my 20 years of learning I am just starting to understand the chinese and thier teachings so I am just a student myself. But I have had some questionable conversations with people on these boards that ask you a question only to say that your answer is wrong!! I did not mean to catogorize you in that group and again I am sorry! I am actually enjoying disscussing this with you , I just wish more people would respond for a lot of times I have a hard time expressing my understanding, knowledge and thoughts into words..............

woliveri

02-07-2002, 10:38 PM

You have made some valid points which I'll have to think about. Thanks. If you would like to add another opinion to the mix I'd still be interested in what your Qi Gong teacher says about the subject.

Also, is she ever in the LA area of California? I'd like to meet her if possible.

If not, perhaps she know someone of equal skill in this area. Perhaps a reference?

Thanks

EARTH DRAGON

02-08-2002, 08:22 AM

I will ask her toady how she feels about external training.

She has never been to any other cities except san Fransisco where we met and buffalo whee she now lives with me. As I said beore she doesnt speak a lot of english so communication with people is diffacult.

As far as other qigong masters she reconises a few in the US but most are in it for the money and fame, and some just to teach the self health aspect and not teach to the point of doctor.

I did invite a qigong master to host a seminar for my students which I found to have pretty good skills and lives in the mountains 2 hours outside LA if you like I will give you his number.

Stacey

02-08-2002, 05:52 PM

Wow ED. I didn't know you were a Master. When did Grandmaster Sun give you the keys to the system and nurture your growth to that level? You must truly have absorbed the qintessence of 8 Step Praying Mantis. Are you considered too old to fight now? Or are you gonna take a crack at NHB. All the other Masters have been fighters and you said you were too. Make a name for kung fu. I think you owe it to the anscestors.

EARTH DRAGON

02-09-2002, 10:00 AM

When did I ever say I was a master? You crack me up sometimes I find it hard to call anyone a master if you read my posts. Actually I consider myself only a student. I think everybody should for we are all still and always be learning. Once you stop learning your ego will surpass your knowledge and you will end up like some people out there that know it all without knowing anything.
By the way who appointed james shyun as grandmaster? Master Wei died in 1984 so who and why does james shyun call himself grand master? Oh let me guess becuse he appointed kevin loftus to become a master!!!! Give me a break I have known kevin for a long time and I am sure he will agree with me that he is no master. But things fly around the federation all the time. Do you know sifu dean? He was mine and kevin's and everybody's first teacher he was appointed "master dean" and the US representitive head of the federation, then he and james shyun got into a fight and he told him that he couldnt be master anymore and then gave the tittle to kevin laster year. Come on now even you gotta think that somthing fishy is going on with that!

TaiChiBob

02-10-2002, 06:17 AM

Hi Bill,
Do you remember Cui Lu Yi? Ms. Cui's cultivation of Chen and Chi Kung certainly has the qualities we usually assign to a "Master".. I sometimes fear that we so confine our potential by assigning "names" to it, that it becomes too fragmented.. The form, the name, the system, all become prisons that confine the experience. Personally, i sense that there is simply "Chi", we cultivate this Chi, we store this Chi.. and, we use this Chi.. Whether internal or external are only different ways of expressing the same thing..
Does dual training affect the Chi cultivation?.. That is the individual's choice, according to the quality of "intent". If we choose to believe that there are contradictions in something so simple the basic life-force of Chi, those contradictions will manifest in according to the depth of your beliefs (indoctrinations).. Speaking of "indoctrinations".. it seems odd to me that some people are so quick to discount modern life as potentially fertile ground for further development of Chi awareness and methodologies.. its not unreasonable to expect that someday a man or woman will emerge from seclusion in some high-rise rent-controlled lair, and astound the fragmented, narrow-minded Chi players with some newly evolved understanding..... oops, we probably wouldn't notice if that person didn't have the correct lineage, the appropriate title, etc..

Just another perspective from the Far-Side.. <respectful bows to all>

woliveri

02-10-2002, 01:47 PM

Hi Bob,
No, I never met this woman but heard about her. I heard she practiced qi gong 4 hours a day in the early morning. Is this correct? All I can tell you is what I feel between "Masters" that I have come in contact with. I can tell you definitely a huge difference in feeling between the kung fu master at your school and a qi gong master I have been in contact with. Huge difference. What I see in High level Qi Gong teachers is they do not practice external martial arts (kung fu). Even Earth Dragon's teacher does not practice external martial arts. So I have to ask why. Does this activity diminish the ability to reach a high level in qi gong?

By the way, ED. Did you have a chance to ask your qi gong teacher this question?

woliveri

02-10-2002, 01:50 PM

By the way, Bob. If you ever get out this way I have some push hand players you might want to try :-)

TaiChiBob

02-11-2002, 06:05 AM

Hi Bill,
First, i would be honored to visit, to experience your friend's pushing hands.. (the more i get pushed, the more i learn) :)
Second, and this is based solely on personal opinion born of experience, i sense that the arts, all of them, are complimentary.. that is until someone's ego feels the need to be superior, to elevate one aspect or another according to personal desire or personal ability. Look at the disharmony based on beliefs that one system is superior or exclusive, do we suppose that was originally intended? i assert that working together to refine our understandings is more desirable than struggling seperately to champion our favorite causes. Of course there are some benefits from competitive comparisons, but fragmentation and exclusivity are not benefits. Ultimately, i envision a "complete" being, internal/external/spiritual/physical.. incredible power, tempered by humane compassion.. We will either evolve into a brotherhood (sisters included) of artists, for the art's sake, for the sake of our fellow beings.. or, remain in this feudal quagmire of seperate warring states.. look for the common threads in this rich tapestry of Martial Arts..
Simply because the Masters any one of us are exposed to assert the purity of their individual "art".. does not confer exclusivity as a defining quality, only a personal choice.. Perhaps, there is a "required journey", where the external evolves into the internal. A close friend and accomplished artist asserts that the arts are complimentary by design.. that we have a responsibility as fellow humans to fix that which we have broken.. whenever i injure someone, i should offer to heal as well.. Balance is not an empty concept..

Be well, look beyond the prison of style and form.. unity is empowering to ALL..

Hua Lin Laoshi

02-11-2002, 09:26 AM

TaiChiBob
Welcome aboard! Your posts are very informative and I look forward to more. I don't have enough background to really get involved in this thread but as they say, everyone has an opinion. Personally I don't see how internal and external can be mutually exclusive. It's all about balance. It's our western way of thinking that gets in our way. You know, if one is good then 2 are better. If a little internal training is good then total internal training is better? Not true. All sunshine makes a desert.

In woliveri's defense I can see his point where internal cultivates qi and external expresses qi. On the surface it would appear that one hour of external training would negate one hour of internal training. I don't believe that to be true although at this point I can't explain why.

woliveri
Because someone focuses on one area completely it is expected that they would reach the height of success in that area. But that's not neccessarily a good thing. I say that because I believe going to any extreme is not good. Somewhere along the line some negative factors appear. I base this solely on my belief that everything should be balanced.

woliveri

02-11-2002, 09:36 AM

Well Bob, (shakes his head) I really don't know what to say to that. Especially since it has nothing to do with my question. I am not comparing arts. I am asking if training external would diminish the ability to reach a high level in Qi Gong. This is a training question.

Hua Lin Laoshi

02-11-2002, 09:44 AM

woliveri
Most likely to reach the level you want will require so much time there will be none left for external training. Unless you win the lottery and become independently wealthy. :D

woliveri

02-11-2002, 10:19 AM

Ok, let me show the question in a different light. Would body building help or hurt your martial arts training. I think this would be easy for you to answer.

This is the same question just sub external ma with body building and martial arts training with qi gong.

The problem here is we have no high level qi gong masters to throw their 2 cents into the mix.

EARTH DRAGON

02-11-2002, 11:08 AM

Well I asked my teacher and she was not much help. I say this becuse she is sometimes difficult to ask her simple questions.

I did ask her and she said you do what you like to do its O.K, you want sweet eat sweet your body tell you what you want.

She then said you want quit gungfu? I said no just curious, I could not tell her I was asking for a freind on the internet for she would not understand.

I then asked if most high level qigong masters in china practiced external MA she said some do but use chi for fight not heal , qigong doctors use chi for heal not fight so more powerful for god's work but up to you..

So I guess that you could say that if training for healing purposes you can have stronger chi than that of martial. Weather is would hinder your abilities I dont think so but as Yen said stronger if used for healing but she didnt say that you cannot do both and reach the same goal, again its up to you.

I believe that is due to the outside forces that come into play when reaching high levels. ie earth's chi, universal chi and cosmos chi. These levels can only be obtained if you are using the force for good as opposed to evil. That may sound corney but the fight between good and evil happens constantly on a 24-7 365 day basis. So I hope that answers your question, again i dont know what level you are seeking to reach but most high level practioners have been practicing from childhood well into their 50's several hours a day for their results.

bamboo_ leaf

02-11-2002, 04:42 PM

“To me, kung fu practice seems counter productive to qi gong development. Especially for healing”

I think you get to a point in your training where the idea of fighting is no longer relevant. IMHO the higher aspects of true inner power are hard to get if your head is always filled with kicking some butt.

If you practice with this idea in mind, collecting, storing and emitting or managing energy then I think this will change your whole perspective.

It also puts your practice in a different level. These things can be applied for fighting but not necessarily developed with fighting in mind. the first aspect is to fix and help your body and later others.

In answer to your question I would say yes, both are very specific arts that take much time and dedacation to really master.
most will not put in the time, seems it dosn't have the same alure as kicking butt. something to think on.

The real question that I think should be asked is which one do you think is more useful? which one will really help your life and others around you?

;)

EARTH DRAGON

02-11-2002, 07:31 PM

Good post bamboo, I was reading your words in the first paragraph and was going to comment on the fighting part but you touched on what I was going to reply with in your third paragraph...So I would just like to add a little.

Fighting is not always considered and not always a factor in external practice. When we learn to really fight is when we mature to the level of not wanting to. This comes early in our training and is the basic or easiest part of MA, however simply training and keeping your body pysically strong without fighting in mind is still external. even if you are training weapons, I dont think about killing someone or defending myself with a sword but yet practice sword form.

As for reaching high levels and changing your focus I think this happens with age , wisdom and experience. I have changed my objective many times in my years of training and latley have focused on softer internal practice as opposed to hard external. I think that your main reason for starting MA changes with learning and time spent understanding. When I was 20 and fighting full contact I never would have though I would enjoy medical qigong and meditation, but now that is my personal agenda.

So fighting? that is for boxers , the UFC and people that have to prove themselves to themselves.....

Stacey

02-11-2002, 08:28 PM

Does your chi increase faster on good's side because its on the side of goodness, or because, you yourself are at ease with your conciounce. Could a psycopath become a chimaster and kick everybodies ass. Just curious.

Are you sayin that on the side of Yang, your stronger, and yin is weaker? Seems to contradict yin/yang theory, can you please enlighten me?

spiralstair

02-12-2002, 02:04 AM

If you want to climb high you need a strong ladder, one that will support you well. Then you must anchor it in the ground forcefully so that it can counteract the pressure of the 'upward' climb.
In the upward climb of 'higher level'qi' practice one's BODY is the ladder that supports the climb of the spirit. Too many practitioners neglect the condition of their ladder with the common result of illness(physical and psychological) interrupting or corrupting their practice as they reach the more advanced levels. This happens especially to healers because of the 'exchange' of qi during sessions.
The care and maintainence of the ladder is done best through a practice that continually strengthens and grounds the body like a good martial art.
Chi doesn't know good from evil. It is 'undifferentiated'.It is just that 'bad' people tend to hoard their qi while 'good' people tend to share. Those that share create 'space' inside themselves and nature fills in the spaces, giving them the experience of being filled from 'outside'.
In the ones that don't share there tends to be much less space since they're always holding onto the qi to feel more powerful. Less space = less vacuumn = less experience of nature filling you.

TaiChiBob

02-12-2002, 05:32 AM

Hi Bill,
I humbly apologize if my posts seemed off topic.. i had intended to use analogy to make a point..
My experience is that too often we are predjudiced by the opinions of others. There seems to be no "natural law" that limits which level of cultivation of Chi is appropriate or counter-appropriate.. Much has been posted in this thread that rings of wisdom gained by experience, rather than wisdom restated.. Fighting as opposed to healing.. internal as opposed to external.. seems to be a distinction of perception..
Here, i will go off topic just a bit. I have been working with some people that have a diferent approach, i hope you don't mind if i share... Their assertion, and i intuit some basic wisdom, is that the Chi aspect of our lives is a process rather than a container.. They develop/refine methodology for smoothing and maximizing the personal management of this flowing process.. They view the breathing cycle as a pump that pumps Chi through our system.. The quality of Chi is determined by diet, training to clean, strengthen and experience the various subtleties, and, of course, breath training.. here, we get back on topic.. once the system/process is trained and refined one may be perceived as having a great reserve of Chi, when in fact, they are simply good managers of the limitless Chi available to us all.. To capture and contain Chi seems to interupt the process rather than to compliment it.. Chi contained, is Chi stagnated..
So, to address your question, my experience leads me to believe that it is not detrimental to dual train internal/external.. the detriment is to isolate those concepts.. Develop a keen awareness of the Chi itself, of how our bodies manage and maximize its uses.. then, perhaps, we will be able to utilize our Chi for whatever application the situation demands..

Bill, i share in the spirit of improvement, not as a contention.. I am certainly no "Master", just another Pilgrim on the Path.. i only offer food for thought, not asserting enlightenment..
Be well...

woliveri

02-12-2002, 08:19 PM

spiralstair: Agreed. However, there are plenty of qi gong exercises that are balanced. That is, do not neglect the physical body.

Bob:
>I humbly apologize if my posts seemed off topic.. i had intended >to use analogy to make a point..

No need for apology.

>There seems to be no "natural law" that limits which level of
>cultivation of Chi

Agreed.

>once the system/process is trained and refined one may be >perceived as having a great reserve of Chi, when in fact, they >are simply good managers of the limitless Chi available to us >all..

At a certain level, yes.

>To capture and contain Chi seems to interupt the process rather >than to compliment it.. Chi contained, is Chi stagnated..

Capture and contain are not the words I would associate with qi gong. Cultivate and circulate would be better.

>So, to address your question, my experience leads me to >believe that it is not detrimental to dual train internal/external.. >the detriment is to isolate those concepts.. Develop a keen >awareness of the Chi itself, of how our bodies manage and >maximize its uses.. then, perhaps, we will be able to utilize our >Chi for whatever application the situation demands..

Depends on the level of the practioner in my opinion. As a beginning student the internal development should be focused within the relmn of his/her physical body. Later at more advanced levels he/she can interact with the qi around them.

I still have not seen a high level external ma master who has reached the level of a high level qi gong master.

PaulLin

02-25-2002, 02:03 AM

Woliveri:
I will share with you the Chi I know, rather than tell you all the Chinese terms and words, I will use modern explaination.

Chi is life force. It is the force created by changing (as in I-Ching). The changing is between yin and young. But you can also say it is between energy and matter. So how good your chi is depends on how good you can handle the cycle of trasfering matter into energy and back into matter and so on. The matter can be say as earth and energy as heaven. In another words, your chi is depends on how good you can represent both heaven and earth at the same time. Most chi masters lost their chi after moved into city. It is because city is build to issolate the mother nature--the heaven and earth. It will be like a fish out of water for a chi master to live in city, it just the matter of time to dry out and die out. It is a good idea to go out to the nature to recharge chi, also to different geographical location to collect different chi since different part of earth attracted different energy form space.

Up to the meridian (ching mai), it is like highway, with lots points (shiueh dao) as market centers along the meridian. If highway in good condition, chi flow strong. But fist must have a good econimy for the chi want to get to the market place first. Then can improve highway condition. For example, the basic ren and du meridian, they have their own purposes, if the mind didn't support the purposes, the meridian will not improve the travel condition. As ren means to carryout and du means to watchover. Ren wants to completes producing the chemical for breaking down matters, to allow the miximum result, and to collect the final product. Du wants to take in the info. make decision based on the info. and send out orders.

Up to what I know of external, it only focus the mind on the physical/external achievements. That will always cost chi rather cultivate chi. In that kind of focuse, one may cultivate some chi for further external achievements, but the cost of chi will always be greater than the cultivation. That is why not a good idea for thinking of fighting while training, it is a focus/mind issue.

In internal, one only do what is needed to complet the chi cycle--to withdraw matter from the home of marrow, change it into energy, let energy work and result in a most efficient way, collect it, and last, concentrate it, put the wast out and store the useful parts back into the home of marrow. To internal artist, there are no fighting or healing, it is only to complete this cycle as needed. A higher level chi artist can always collect more than what he/she send out. It is like in business, if one didn't benefit more than what it is cost, it is just matter of time for bankrupt.

So for fighting or healing, it will depend on 1. how sensetive the artist. 2. the artist's mind/focus. 3. how efficient (smart) the artist used the chi. 4. how good the artist can collect the chi. 5. how stable the artist can remin until the chi was fully concentrated. 6. the environmental chi effects. All that will be factors of losing or not during a chi activaty.

I hope that will help you

PaulLin

02-25-2002, 02:23 AM

Stacey:

I think Jesus has told you about chi on the good side or evil.
Jesus has said that he is the truth, the way, and the life and one must go throgh him to his father.

Let us look at each of the elements,
1. truth--Chi will never lie. If one lies, it will cause a separation of chi and mind. That is the mismatch of brain wave patern and chi rhythm. It will cause many sickness. The final result of it is that the chi will take away the body form the mind's order.

2. way--as the law of the nature. One must know the way of how to complete the balance in the cycle. lacking of such knowlecge will not able to have chi in order to serve your will since it is out of order. without knowing what to do--the wisdom and how to do--the knowledge, one can only relying on luck and luck will run out sooner than you know.

3. life--the meaning of life is the power of love and harmonization. If one opposing the power of love and harmonization, one will reject. As one reject more and more, he/she will becomes weaker and weaker. To a greater level of chi, one must harmonize and love.

God bless you