Civility

[Sihing73]

Hello,

On this forum/board we have an opportunity that many of our forerunners would die for. The chance to transcend boundaries and engage in a productive dialogue to better our understanding of the art. Think of the stories of masters wandering the land, in our case China, and seeking out others to compare and broaden their skills. Today, we can accomplish a small part of this via the internet, although there is still not substitute for personal interaction. How many of us would be ignorant that there was more than a couple of different ways to do Wing Chun without a medium such as this? Or without the books and videos put out with the effort of a few who love their art? I know that prior to reading "Complete Wing Chun" I was ignorant of many of the lineages outside of Yip Man and his legacy.

On this board we have representatives of a vast and varied sampling of the Wing Chun family. We have some who have trained for many years and others taking their first steps. However, with a few exceptions, we all share one thing; A love of our art and desire to make it better. I would like to remind everyone that our art is a familial one meaning that we are all of the same family. Despite our differences we all eventually, if you go far enough back, spring from the same root. It seems to me that it would make sense for us to come together rather than continue the petty bickering which has hurt us over the many years. When I look at some of the other arts out there I see people of different lineages/schools interacting and helping one another. I am saddened that we can not learn to do this within our own family.

Each and every one of us brings something to the table. Be it a great deal or a small dish we all have something to share. While something someone says here may not have an impact on you I can assure you that there is someone out there reading who obtains value from it. Those who are "senior" sometimes need to go back and re-explore the basics. Sometimes a "newbie" holds the answer to a long held question. Just a new perspective was needed to bring it to light.

On this board we seem to have two main types of people.

1) Those willing to share their knowledge and work together to build the art up. While there may at times be some heated arguments between members, in the end they will put aside the majority of their differences and work to build up the art.

2) On the other hand there are those who insist on posting yet sharing little of value. Sometimes pearls can be gleaned if you look hard enough. Whether or not that was the case you can be sure they will claim it was if someone does decipher the somewhat cryptic messages and come up with something of value. Now some do this with no intent to degrade others, it is simply their way. There is nothing inherently wrong with that approach in this case. However, one must consider the audience and whether this method is appropriate to those being addressed. I would not teach a college class in the same manner as a junior high or elementary class. While the knowledge would still be there the delivery would need to be modified to suite the audience.

What I am getting at with this long winded post is that there is no benefit from bickering among ourselves. We do nothihng to better either us personally or our art in general. Even if we "win" the victory is a hollow one for it will ultimately change nothing in how the other sees or does things. If someone chooses to post in a manner which the majority of others can not derive value then it is best to ignore them. Eventually they will either change their method or go away. Our art comes from China, I think we can all agree on that :D . The people of China have always shown a vast amount of patience. Perhaps we can learn something from this and await the day when we can all interact without resorting to name calling and posturing. Until then, I would suggest that each of us do what we can to benefit ourselves and those we interact with which will hopefully lead to a stronger and more unified art in the future.

Forgive my rambling.

Peace,

Dave

[Dave Farmer]

Forgiven ;-)

Seconded.

Regards

Dave F

[yuanfen]

Hi Dave:
Long post! I agree with some of what you said- about basic civility.
But different people have different styles of writing. Some are verbose others terse- I can see different syles of communication-like wing chun.
As for being a family- I dont know about that... a pretty dysfunctional family at best. But we are not unique :if you dig deeper into tai chi, eagle claw, tong long worlds as well-they have their ups and downs.
The JMA and the KMA are different but I wouldnt want to be in those families.
When a newbie asks a question they should be answered.
But aside from that, posturing on lists that have skimpy profiles
of members is not uncommon. But on the whole Civil anarchy is
the best one can strive for and that aint all that bad.
But let us not mistake lists as being central to kung fu worlds-most
really top flight CMA folks dont participate on net lists.

[Ish]

thirded

[red5angel]

Seems to me the people who have good things to say, and important info to pass on, are also the people who tend to be the most civil and open minded.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Chinese Idiom:
"Short answer's is a sign of Knowledge"
not a lack of sharing.

[Kuen]

Mr. Anthony

You live in Canada do you not? We are westerners short, terse answers are considered rude here.
Perhaps "a short answer, that is actually an answer is a sign of Knowledge" should be the idiom.

[rubthebuddha]

fourthed.

nice words, dave. thank you for sharing.

[yuanfen]

I am no wetserner. The west is a diverse place these days.Short answers, if to the point seem ok.
More to wing chun than forward energy- short answer but true.
Ask politely for more- someone might answer. Using four letter asteriks as one did in response to brevity is the west at it's worst.
Many wing chun teachers give short answers. Knowledge and length of a post are not always directly proportional. Let's hear some less than terse profound insights on wing chun rather than comments on terseness and most stuff on this thread.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Sometimes I am sorry that I post anything at all. Why is it that some people feel the need to argue over everything?????

I am reminded of several proverbs and sayings and would like to share them with you. Consider them FWIW and if you do not think they apply to you then don't worry about them. However, to argue for the sake of argument is neither a sign of intelligence nor a sign of knowledge.

Before you tell your brother to remove the splinter from his eye, remove the log from your own.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

When one points a finger there are three pointing back at you.

Don't cast your pearls before swine.

I am sure you get the idea. I made a simple post advocating civility. Manners and courtesy cost your nothing but can go a long way towards helping you move forward. What does it accomplish to continue posting veiled slights and pointing out what YOU may see as the shortcomings of others? Consider this, no matter who we are we all have failings and shortcomings. Sometimes one learns from ones mistakes other times we repeat them due to our own stubborness.

I swear, sometimes I think some people have nothing better to do then argue and gripe. Makes me wonder about their own feelings of self worth and what their lives must be like. :(

Wing Chun has a terrible reputation for infighting. While it is true that other arts also have this problem, Wing Chun people, some at least, seem to enjoy this distinction. What, I ask, is wrong with trying to bring the members of our family together? Is there some fear that you may see something of value or realize there is a better or at least different way to reach the same end?

While there is nothing wrong with a short answer which has substance, there is something wrong, IMHO, with a short answer that does nothing to move the topic forward. Apparently, some people see nothing wrong with that and that really confuses me. I mean what is the purpose of posting here in the first place? It was stated that most high level CMA do not post on internet boards. Well, I guess that is a good indication of most of our level of acheivement. After seeing how some can turn almost any topic into a mudsliging contest I can understand why some would not post on the internet, better off training then wasting time or bandwidth on those not wanting to learn or improve.

Peace,

Dave

[David Peterson]

Hi All!

I think that those who genuinely wish to share knowledge and gain from the experiences of others will continue to express themselves with courtesy and clarity. Like any family, workplace or professional body, there will always be members whose manner will offend or dismay, but we should always try to be tolerant of the ways of others, accept them for who they are, and try our best to influence them in a positive way. Sure, there are those who like to bicker over the slightest point, sometimes for no apparent reason, but we don't have to provoke them further with similar comments to their own. Likewise, some of you prefer short, precise reponses, while others like myself and our respected moderator, like to expand on a point in order to explore all avenues of a discussion and transmit as much information as possible....to each his/her own....this is neither typically Western or Eastern, simply Human :) I enjoy the general civility of this site, as compared to others that we are all familiar with, and will continue to post here as long as the discussions remain as interesting and enjoyable as they have been in my experience of visiting here. I hope that you will all forgive my ramblings, and that I will remain welcome to join in with your discussions and occasionally offer my "10 cents worth".

Best Wishes,

DMP

[old jong]

I'm with you Dave.

[old jong]

Hey! That was pretty short but it was sincere!;)

[CanadianBadAss]

fourthed

I'm I number 1 or 2?

[CanadianBadAss]

opps, make that sixthed

[kj]

The introspective and ethical tone of your messages predisposes me to better appreciate their content and your generosity in sharing. I too am prone to exposition, thus enjoy your respective styles as well. Here's to being a little bit "thoughtful." :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Roy D. Anthony]

Kuen, if you are offended I apologize, however Wing Chun teaches us to have short answers to invoke a lot of self learning. Like our hand techniques, short and to the point.

[whippinghand]

This post has been deleted for inappropriate personal sniping.

Sandman[Wing Chun]

[CanadianBadAss]

This post has been deleted for inappropriate personal sniping.

Sandman[Wing Chun]

[S.Teebas]

lol.. @ whipping hand!

Sorry Dave.... this place is better than TV!:)

[mun hung]

I think anyone who's been on this board for awhile can agree that this forum is'nt a popularity contest. Never was.

In hopes of exchanging thoughts and ideas with others without namecalling and/or arrogance should be our aim. Exercising a civil manner can be the simple solution to a complex problem.

I think there's still hope!:)

[Kuen]

No, you didn't offend me I was just throwing it out there for thought. Besides I don't think SiHing73 or anyone was directing their cmments at you. Although you may have short answers most of them would fall in to the answers that actually are answers catagory. Others on this board don't seem to get it though. Also, I know who you are and your lineage and know that you are a knowledgeable Sifu.


JC- I respect your opinions highly, but as I tell my new Post-Docs "when in Rome...

[Kuen]

Mr. Hand has been most verbose on other boards around the web. I suppose he has issues with Sihing73 which would explain his behavior. Sihing you should be proud your words seem to have such an effect on people. These individuals empower you with their responses.

[yuanfen]

JC- I respect your opinions highly, but as I tell my new Post-Docs "when in Rome...
---------------------------------------------------
Rome? Surely you jest. The Mad Hatter's tea party perhaps?

[Kuen]

Rome? Surely you jest. The Mad Hatter's tea party perhaps?


:) at our university most definitely the tea party!

[Roy D. Anthony]

Well Thank YOu for your Kind words Kuen. SO how is it that you know me? are you in Canada?, if so where?

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by Kuen
Mr. Hand ... I suppose he has issues with Sihing73 which would explain his behavior.Don't have issues with anyone I've never seen.

[cobra]

Not to ruffle anyones feathers, but short answers can also be a sure sign of ignorance. Also, we should not tolerate those who wish to degrade the content of the posts on this list to the level displayed on the VTAA forum.

[JasBourne]

I think Dave means:

chill out, be nice, play fair, quit cussin.

Same stuff your momma says.

:D

[Ehlana]

Hi all,

Firstly allow me to say this is only my 2nd post on the board. I have however, spent a fair amount of time reading other people's posts before posting on my own.

There seems to be a great mixture of knowledge, both of martial arts and of Internet standards/courtesy. For those who are not aware of it, many who post on Message Boards read them a long time before posting. Why do I mention this... because it seems 'newbies' are not welcome here, if I were to judge ONLY from reading recent threads.

I thank Dave for asking for courtesy and I think short posts can be a sign of anything - at their best they show concise, clear thinking and an ability to express one's self well (as you can tell, so far I don't have that skill!) At their worst they can be insults. I don't think brevity in and of itself is good or bad. Just my opinion however.

I'd like to participate on this board without getting flamed - what's the preferred method of introduction to this group? What do you want to know about me or my interests? Please let me know, before I too become a troll (unless it's too late *grin*)...

Thanks

Sandy T.:cool:

[old jong]

Welcome in the gang!...Even if you are not in Wing Chun!
Maybe you are interrested in Wing Chun? (Why not?) ;)

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Allow me to say that all are welcome here regardless of style. While this is a Wing Chun board and we would prefer to discuss our art and its many embodiements. Still, I am sorry if you got the impression that "Newbies" were not welcome. I can assure you that I do not believe that is completely accurate. While there are some here who would not make you feel as welcome I would hope they are the minority not the majority.

In any event, feel welcome. Ask questions, I would just request that we stick to subjects concerning Wing Chun as there are other boards for more general questions.

Peace,

Dave

[Ehlana]

Thanks, guys.

Actually I was looking at the entire board and just "happened" in to the Wing Chun area.

I am fairly new to MA and don't spend a lot of time researching other areas - not due to a lack of interest but a lack of time! However an acquaintance of mine does Wing Chun and it looked interesting...

In my personal opinion it does me no harm to research (or even try out) other fighting practises/techniques. I think there is something to learn from each one, even if it is a better understanding of how other fighters think.

Once again thank you for the welcome - I won't post much but hopefully can learn by observing your discussions.

Cheers,

Sandy T.

[Kuen]

Well Thank YOu for your Kind words Kuen. SO how is it that you know me? are you in Canada?, if so where?

Sorry for the delay in responding I've just returned to work from a long weekend. To answer your questions, I am in the States and without naming names on the internet your Sifu is my Sigung's kung fu brother. :)

[Roy D. Anthony]

Kuen,
Well Nice to see another member of the family. Hopefully we will meet one day, without the code names....*S*

[Kuen]

I'd be honored to meet you.
You know how some in the family are about wanting to avoid the spotlight so I don't name names unless given permission. Plus, this way when I say something stupid it won't reflect on my Sifu. :)

[Roy D. Anthony]

Thank you Kuen, Likewise.:)