Any of you Kung Fu guys box?

[BoxerChick]

Hi,
You can call me boxerchick.
Any of you Kung Fu'ers also train in boxing?
Just wondering, because I met a guy who does karate at our
gym last week. He said he trained in boxing to develope better hand speed and timing.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Hi KKM !;)

[Mr. Nemo]

Wrong forum, ShaolinTiger, but good call anyway.

I train at the LA boxing club here in uh..... LA two or three times a week right now. I trained boxing a little bit in high school, and now I'm doing it again, partly because my sifu and others in my baji class have told me that baji resembles an inside fighter's boxing strategy quite a bit.

I've even been told to watch early Tyson to get an idea of the maneuverabily of baji.

But I also train boxing just because its fun...

[KungFuGuy!]

Good lord...
Here we go again!

[Order]

I train in Chinese boxing, not Western.

[WesternBoxer]

Chinese boxing???
Do you mean kung fu?

[Kristoffer]

yes he does..

I play around with boxers :D And in sparring class sifu often wants us to focus on hand techniques aka boxing. soo,,, yeah

[respectmankind]

I primarily box.

[straight blast]

I used to box & train Muay Thai but now I train Wing Chun.

[Kristoffer]

it's fun aaand it hurts

[Ray Pina]

My sifu incorporates boxing drills into almost every class. Its important to learn how to handle full power punching realisticly.

[shaolinboxer]

I have a few dozen hours of boxing under my belt.

[BoxerChick]

>>>I play around with boxers

That's funny. Because I have seen alot of Kung Fu and Karate guys come into our gym and get played around with!

[Water Dragon]

Would you be so kind as to explain in detail the mechanics of the following two punches:

1. The Left Hook
2. The Uppercut

Thanks in Advance.

[Kristoffer]

Its important to learn how to
handle full power punching realisticly.



.-...

exactly

[Kristoffer]

"That's funny. Because I have seen alot of Kung Fu and Karate guys come into our gym
and get played around with!"


haha,, I dont really have any problems with boxers. Sorry. : ) I've noticed that they are kinda scared of kicks and grappling/throws

[Colin]

Yea mate!
Done a bit of boxing.
Don't like to talk about it.
Nearly killed a man!
Yea.........boxing.....yea!
.......................
alwight! geeza, you faaking want some or wat?
arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i tried boxing to help with my insecurities caused by having a tiny pen!s, but i just got beat up real bad and ended up feeling even worse.

[BoxerChick]

waterdragon,
Why do you want online boxing training?
Find a good gym in your area and they will teach you
how to throw a punch.
I can't watch you to see what your doing wrong, but I can tell you this,
It starts with your feet. Good footwork makes the boxer.
Our boxing coach has his own style of footwork I wont get into, but you got to step with each good strike.
Next is your hips and using them for power.
Contrary to what people think, it's not all muscle. Especially for me, a female, I have to really stay relaxed and use pivots and hips for power.
The hook and uppercut are relatively the same in that you want to use footwork and body pivoting to gain power.

[Water Dragon]

Just checking credentials. I HAVE had solid boxing training through the Whiting, IN gym. The same gym that Angel Manfreddy trains in.

If you would be so kind, please answer the question instead of evading it. There is nothing wrong in trying to determine if you are indeed trained or simply trolling. Thanks.

[Kuen]

I used to box until I decided I wanted to avoid neurological damage. Those d*mn gloves. I'd take barehand fighting any day.

[yenhoi]

LOL @ WaterDragon

"I'd take barehand fighting any day." - Kuen

:eek:

[Crimson Phoenix]

I'm a savate player when my gong fu training leaves me spare time and energy...

[NafAnal]

Tim Cartmell's thoughts on boxing (taken from his discussion board)

"Western boxing is probably the best choice of all the martial arts when it comes to developing practical hand skills in a relatively short amount of time.

Western boxing doesn't need to be 'driven' by anything else, it works just fine as it is. When the Chinese army was researching and developing their hand to hand combat (which later evolved into the modern San Shou/San Da tournament fighting popular today), they researched all the popular forms of martial arts (including their own). The conclusion was that Western boxing hand techniques (when it came to developing practical striking and defensive abilities in a reasonable amount of time) were superior to all others (including their own). Other (Chinese) hand techniques were included to round out the training, but the foundation of San Shou hand techniques is Western boxing. The striking techniques of the IMA (especially Xing Yi Quan) are, in my opinion, on par with Western boxing, but for shear speed of skill development (and practical ability), you can't beat boxing (an interesting side note, the descriptions of generating force described in Jack Dempsy's book, "Championship Fighting," are virtually identical to those in Xing Yi Quan).

A few months of boxing lessons with a good coach will almost certainly be of great value to your training."

[SifuAbel]

With all the grappling trolls it's a nice change of pace to get a boxing troll around here, a chick no less. Keep it up honey. A chick with a boxer face, eek! She'll have a firm arse at least.

To clarify something:
Not all kung fu is concidered chinese "boxing". It is chinese fighting, but not necessarily boxing in western terms.
Chinese boxing does not follow marques de queensbury rules but has alot in common. Gaurd position(oh yeah, who here remembers how to hold a hand gaurd?) stance form etc.

[BoxerChick]

waterdragonboy,
your a wierd one??!!
you want to check me out?
your the troller it seems like!!
why don't YOU tell me the right way to throw a jab and the right footwork for it?

[apoweyn]

'chick'
'honey'
'boxer's face'
'firm arse'

seriously, you can tell me. do you still use a club or are you knocking out your mates empty handed these days?

some of the stuff you say is solid, but come off it. this is just sad.


stuart b.

[Jacki]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

you dont understand. we think you are really a man and a troll. you have to convince us otherwise. if you don't feel like you need to convince us then we will catch you on fire and i will have my way with your charred remains.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

male or female remains. it doesn't matter much after the body has been severely scorched.

[shaolinboxer]

There you go ,boxerchick, nicely dodged again.

Many of us know how to jab, hook, cross, uppercut, erhand.....and a many other hand strikes and applications. It's better for communication if we understand one anothers interpreatitions of techniques. Since you opened the discussion with claims of knowledge, why dont you begin?

Makes sense, doesn't it?

Or pehaps we should be more specific..do you prefer a falling step or simultaneous when commiting to your jab? Why?

[apoweyn]

good grief. what the hell's with the witch hunt?

maybe boxerchick is a guy. maybe not. who cares?!

i didn't read anything particularly troll-like in this thread. she said she'd seen boxers play around with kung fu and karate people. perhaps a bit inciteful, but hardly unheard of. (neither's the opposite. boxers get handled by kung fu guys too.) i've seen that happen too. so what?

as for describing the mechanics of an uppercut or hook on the internet, that's a bit daunting to do accurately. and since when has anyone on here had to pass a screening test anyway? i don't recall anyone quizzing me on eskrima.

based on 'her' descriptions of the footwork used in generating power, i believe boxerchick knows what she's going on about. but more importantly, what's with this ridiculous 'guilty until proven innocent' thing?

i've seen dozens of people post dumber things than this thread, and not one of them has taken this kinda flak.


stuart b.

[Ryu]

Uh oh. :D
This might get interesting.

To answer your question, my father was a golden gloves champ in his youth, but that was LONG ago.
Still he was the one guy who gave me the most problems sparring :D He taught me what he knew, but I'm prodominently a grappler.

Ryu

[shaolinboxer]

Just trying to get her/his interpretation.

[Water Dragon]

I'm not calling BoxerChick a troll. Yet. If she is a solid boxer, I think she would make a great additon to the boards. She'll have a lot of knowledge to give out. However, past experience has shown that a lot of people ain't all that they claim to be. If she is trolling, it's better to know now so that she can be ignored. I don't think asking for the basic mechanics of the hook and the uppercut are too much to ask. Shouldn't take more than a paragraph or two to write up. I would think a boxer would be more than happy to share some of the basics of their art.

FYI, (to all) I'm working on the basics of the jab as I was taught them and will post as soon as I am finished. I'm not a boxer though so don't expect anything too in depth or enlightening.

[apoweyn]

interpretation of what? boxing? nobody's ever asked you the mechanics of a sidekick simply to lend credibility to your posts.

if that's a new requirement, then fire away. tell us how those techniques are technically performed. and if it'll make you feel better, quiz me too.

this is bollocks.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

water dragon,

i understand that. but what prompted the question in the first place? the observation that sometimes boxers beat kung fu practitioners?

i don't find the idea of a boxer explaining technique odd. i find the idea that they should have to to be taken seriously odd. we don't assume that every new member here is a troll. or do we?

we don't do this routinely. so why now? like i said, nobody's ever quizzed me. or you.


stuart b.

[Archangel]

What's the number 6 strike in The Lameco Escrima system, from cerado side. ;)

[apoweyn]

**** you archangel. :)

i don't know. i've done the doce pares angles (both patalinghug and canete sets), the villabrille set, and one of guro inosanto's sets. but i could probably only remember the doce pares one if pressed. and the abbreviated cinco teros.

but i'll take a stab. it's a stab. forehand thrust to the stomach?

survey says...

no, wait. that wouldn't be right. forehand thrust would probably be an odd-numbered strike. in short, i have no earthly idea.



stuart b.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i'm no boxer either, but i could describe the mechanics of the cross and uppercut pretty well.

[apoweyn]

that isn't my question. my question is why?

seriously, raise your hand if you've ever been asked to describe a technique in this manner.

[shaolinboxer]

*raises hand*

[apoweyn]

really?

there have been threads on this board about, for example, defending against a leg kick. and when i chimed in and said, "i'd probably opt for the shin block or retrada footwork," i didn't have muay thai aficianados quizzing me on the mechanics of a shin block to see if i was full of sh@t.

so what was yours?

perhaps i'm being overreactionary. and if i am, i apologize. but i just don't see anything in this thread that warranted the trial by fire.


stuart b.

[Archangel]

LMAO!!!

You got it wrong!!! It's a downward diagonal strike ( I think) strike!!!! You're not worthy of posting on this bored, I think you should leave now ;)

You're right Ap, it is pretty silly.

On a side not, I've heard people say that the've "toyed" with Kung Fu fighters. I've heard people say the've "toyed" with kickboxers. But I've never heard anybody claim the've toyed with an Escrimador.

[apoweyn]

well... at least i was right about... being wrong about the thrust.
[sigh]

well, let me be the first then. i've been toyed with. by other eskrimadors, generally. and by merryprankster. i'm convinced he could turn me into some horrific human christmas wreath if he so chose.

:)

stuart b.

[Kristoffer]

I think Stuart has the hots for a certain boxer girl.. :rolleyes:

[apoweyn]

yeah, kristoffer, i do. i'm in the habit of falling for nameless, faceless identities on the internet.

please.


stuart b.

[Water Dragon]

I’m usually a tad suspicious whenever a non CMA person comes around. I was wary of MerryPrankster when he first came aboard. He’s shown he’s a good guy now, but I watched him for a while to see what he was about. Why not nip it in the bud. If someone claims to be a boxer, they should have a knowledge of basic boxing. They may still be a troll, but at least you know they’re an informed troll.

Anyway, here’s a brief take on the jab from my experience.

When moving forward or advancing, the jab is in the back foot. This allows you to jab while entering into punching range. The logic becomes clear when you consider boxing footwork. If you want to move forward, the front foot moves first. If you want to move backward, the rear foot moves first. So as can be seen, the backward jab used defensively is anchored into the front foot.

The jab is unique among boxing punches in that it does not rely on the torque of the hip. This is because it is not a power shot. It is used to gauge range and create an opening. The jab can be painful in and of itself, but is designed as the beginning of a combination. The advancing jab also naturally sets up power shots from the right side. If practiced sufficiently, the combination becomes very natural in it’s execution.

[apoweyn]

water dragon,

you seem like a good guy. nothing's changed in that regard, as far as i'm concerned. i just think it's sad that this is now our default.

i'm not a kung fu guy. was that a point of concern? is it still?

if this is how we regard any new non-CMA person who comes here, then the trolls have really had their desired effect. and that bothers me.

maybe i'm wrong. maybe boxerchick is a complete troll. but personally, i'd rather give her the benefit of the doubt until there's some solid reason to believe otherwise. a statement like, "kung fu never beats boxing" is grounds, to my mind. a statement like, "i've seen boxers play with kung fu practitioners", not so much.


stuart b.

[Sharky]

i'll get my coat.

[Kristoffer]

boxergirl and Stuuuart,, sitting in a tree.. :p

[apoweyn]

[laugh]

damm!t kristoffer, i'm supposed to be full of righteous indignation over here.


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

Water,

You're right and not right :)

You're absolutely correct that the jab is a gauging weapon---it's a set up, you can jab your way in, or keep people off of you with it.

A step, however is not fundamentally necessary. When you DON'T step with a jab, the snap in it DOES come from hip torque. There's not much but it's there. You turn the shoulder a bit to face the opponent, and place your body right behind the punch. This makes a nice stiff jab while both feet are in contact with the ground. You might, for instance, do this when you are moving laterally and the opponent is trying to come in. You don't want to necessarily move backwards while hitting because this doesn't make the opponent think twice about what he's doing... he'll happily stalk you down. So you "stick," for a second, throw your jab from outside their range, with both feet planted and that little shoulder twist, but you don't take that step. Now you've interrupted his forward movement...and you can throw some more junk or you move. Of course, this all happens in the blink of an eye.

And I really think what Ap is trying to say is that he's concerned that the forum has begun to approach new members with a default attitude of "prove you're not a troll, FIRST, then we'll talk." I don't know how accurate it is, since I've not really been following this thread. I think it's a reasonable concern. It's more of a "working environment," concern than pointing fingers, I believe. At least, that's how I read it.

And really Water, we were both hoping you'd teach the Shuai Chaio classes when we open our MA dream school in 20 years, so I hope there's no hard feelings. :)

[apoweyn]

yep. that's it. said much more diplomatically or succinctly than i've managed today.

listen, i'm not looking to argue. if i'm being an arse, sorry. i'm in the middle of my first exams in 8 years. (going back to school) but i do have a very real concern that we're approaching new people like this. if we do, we get stuck with the old guard and the true trolls.

and i get an email, in the middle of all this, reading "we should get waterdragon to teach shuai chiao.' figures. my timing's impeccable.


stuart b.

[Water Dragon]

First, don't get mad because you made me suspicious at first :D

Second, yeah, you're right on the jab. But I still don't see the hip movement. The hip does line up into the punch, but I was never taught that you focus on the hips. Maybe I just missed that part.

Third, It'll be a couple years before I'm anywhere near qualified enough to teach Shuai Chiao. I'm still trying to get the throws down.

[Merryprankster]

Oh, I don't think you missed anything. I think they say "turn your shoulder!"

But the alignment puts snap in it.

[wushu chik]

MY GOD PEOPLE...can't we all just get along?? Except maybe for Jackie....and who CARES if it's another troll or not...aren't you guys used to that yet??

~Wen~

[JasBourne]

Well now, this is what happens when whackadoodles like that crossdressing self-proclaimed 'cum dumpster' Stacey and the ever-popular would-be bimbo 'tee-hee' Jacki get everyone worked up - paranoia rules the day.

If she's a troll, it will soon be apparent. If she's for real, y'all are being astonishingly RUDE.

Boxerchick asked a legit question - does anyone box as a form of crosstraining or conditioning? I've been thinking about doing exactly that, so I'm curious as to the answers.

So. Do any of you kungfu folks box?

[apoweyn]

i'm not a kung fu practitioner, but i do practice boxing, yeah.

[Mr. Nemo]

Bwahahaha....Oh man, if (s)he's real, boxerchick is never ever gonna come back here. We're such a bunch of a$$holes.

[fa_jing]

I just want to be the first to call it with certainty. It is obvious, though. Someone who acts like they're all surprised with the troll talk, yet it's clear this person knows ALOT about the board. NO profile, who'd of figured out how to edit the profile right away? Uses a handle similar to a known female, wushu Chik. First post on what could be a contraversial topic, but one would only know that IF they had been spending a lot of time on the board. Very short posts, it does not appear this person is actually looking for any info, more of a "stir up the discussion" thing. No surprise indicated that 40 responses came in right away. Feigning innocence, yet responding timely like an old pro.

In all fairness, I have no problem with trolls, they make the board more interesting. There really are only a few good new threads everyday that actually relate to Kung Fu. We're all looking for entertainment here.

But really, how can you guys be fooled so easily? Thanks for feeding the trolls because I sure won't, yet I do appreciate them.
-FJ

[Highlander]

Originally posted by Mr. Nemo
Bwahahaha....Oh man, if (s)he's real, boxerchick is never ever gonna come back here. We're such a bunch of a$$holes.

Ya, it's kinda like water testing witches. If they drown then they were inocent. And as far as us being a bunch of a$$holes, well I can't speak for everyone, but YES ....... YES I am!

[WesternBoxer]

You guy are really freaky!!
My friend told me you kung fu guys were a bunch of
dweebs, but this is rediculous!!
If me being here ****es all you 12 year old kung fuey masters off then I am going to come here every chance I get!!
LOL! Boys got problems!!

[wushu chik]

Western Boxer....your friend is STUPID...like YOU. Go play on a boxing forum....why the hell are you here anyway?? Just to p!ss in everyone elses cornflakes? LOL, you need some serious help. Boxers are cool...especially when you hit them with a crescent kick to the jaw and they fall on the floor bawling like a little b!tch. SOUND FAMILIAR?? Probably...go back to mommys tit lil boy!!

[Ryu]

ahem.

WushuChik, you are brash, arrogant, always domineering, never submissive, and full of bravado and "femme fatale" fighting spirit.........




......................... :D I LOVE IT!
Please be my better half. ;)


LOL
(no insults or seriousness intended up there at all ;) )

Ryu

[wushu chik]

Ryu...
Honey, you have such sweet pillow talk!! You know I will be your better half.

~Wen~

[Ryu]

LOL@sweet pillow talk.

Man, I'd hate to see you in an aggressive mood then. :D
(then again, maybe I wouldn't hate it too much. ;) )


All right, I'm officially getting out of here before I get in over my head! ;)

Ryu

[wushu chik]

don't leave me..................ppppplease

[WesternBoxer]

>>>you hit them with a crescent kick to the jaw and they fall on the floor bawling like a little b!tch.

LOL!! Looks like this fantasy kung fuey has rubbed off on you girl!
You must be really desperate for the boys attention to play kung fuey with them!
I bet your size 16 panties that your a hefer who can only get boys to touch you by playing kung fuey. Try boxing....it will help you lose weight and it will actually teach you how to throw a real punch. Those spinning flying crescent kung fuey kicks will get your fat little hefer butt handed to you on the street.

[SifuAbel]

Man!!! This forum is such troll bait. Look at this idiot, "westernboxer" indeed. You reek of alter ego.
OK, who are you really?

[red_fists]

If westernboxer were real.

He would box without gloves, proper fist fighting style.

But I guess than he would take his fist home in a plastic bag after the first fit punch to the head.

[Ryu]

The funny thing here is in Wushu's real life attractive physical appearance, and the post by the troll above.

Ryu

[rubthebuddha]

and more funny? the fact that she could clobber the **** out of the poor bum and not even spill her tea.

[scotty1]

for Christ's sake...

How did anybody get the idea she was a troll? The question was do any of u cross train boxing? She did not say that boxing was better than KF, so why not just answer the question?

Troll or otherwise, if its a KF related topic and invites discussion then lets flow!

I'm with Ap.

And to answer the question: My old man used to box in the Army. I bought a heavy bag, he helped me put it up, and I wrapped up, put the mitts on, shook my shoulders off etc, and tested it. Ok.
So then he showed me how to really hit it. Bam. Like a mother****er. Nearly 50 years old and he could bust my nose and several ribs before I even knew what was happening.

So while I've been unable to train Kung Fu I've been learning boxing combos from him. And drilling them is a good way of being able to defend yourself to a basic degree while still getting to grips with Kung Fu.

I know if I was in a fight I would not be able to use KF confidently. But take some of the skills I learned in KF and plus the combos I've been learning and I feel a lot safer than I did.

I will continue to train boxing combos until i am confident enough in my KF to let go of the Western style punching. And that means a lot more regular KF lessons!

[NafAnal]

Why would you want to let go of the western style punching? If it really works, then why not keep it?

Check that western/eastern striking thread, got some good discussion on how they relate/differ. Good stuff.

[scotty1]

But a lot of people have said that is the worst mistake you can meake, trying to put Western style boxing skills into KF.

I spose you'd end up with JKD!

[BoxerChick]

Hi scotty,
Thanks for sticking up for me.
I don't know what that jerk waterboy's problem is!!??
He tries to pick on me about boxing knowledge and then
he leaves out the most important thing about a jab....the footwork!
Anyway,
I think alot of kung fu and karate would benefit from western boxing. From what I have seen, alot of them don't know how to use their footwork with their strikes and alot of them don't use their hips enough.
later,
Boxerchick

[JasBourne]

Why would you want to let go of the western style punching?


Well, for me, I would only use western style boxing as a way to increase my upper body strength. Being a girl, almost every guy in my kwoon has it over on me in that respect. And while my style depends much more on the precise use of body mechanics than on sheer muscle, having the muscle doesn't hurt :D

As to using it in my arsenal, I don't know that I would, because how you punch as a boxer seems to be in direct conflict with how you strike as a wingchunner. I would have to learn a lot more about western boxing. When I do my punching drills I work very hard to stay loose and throw the punch straight out from my centerline, not tighten up and push it out from my shoulder.

Boxerchick, footwork is imperative in wing chun. When we are in our prime fighting range (close, just like boxers), our footwork ensures three things: one, we control the precise distance to our opponent, two, we control our weight distribution to our advantage, and three, we can always use a leg as a weapon in that close range.

[BoxerChick]

Jasbourn,
That does sound alot like boxing.
Do you use your hips and body twist and torque for power?

[JasBourne]

Boxerchick - yup, that's exactly where it comes from. We move our body as though there were a pole going through the top of our heads straight down into the ground, and throw the punch straight out.

[BoxerChick]

Jasbourne,
You said you throw all your punches straight out from centerline.
Is that all you do? Do you have uppercuts or hooks or anything?
What about kicks, does your style kick?
Sorry if I am being nosey, it actually sounds like you study a pretty cool style.

[Jaguar Wong]

Try boxing....it will help you lose weight and it will actually teach you how to throw a real punch. Those spinning flying crescent kung fuey kicks will get your fat little hefer butt handed to you on the street.
- WesternBoxer

LOL, man I understand the defensive tone and all, after reading this thread, but that's harsh. I'm sure the spinning flying crescent has a very poor chance of landing, but how many boxers are watching for kicks? Seriously, not a troll, or even a comment to prove anything against Boxers, I'm just wondering.

OK, so the tension seems to have subsided, so I can throw my opinion in here. I've got a few friends that have trained in boxing, as well as running into a few boxers that wanted to add another dimension to their arsenal (namely knees, elbows and good clinching techniques, but some wanted the kicks as well ;)), so I have some vague sketchy knowledge about the style/sport. They are by no means professional level (not even amateur in most cases), but they know enough to show me some things. One of the better boxers has taught me a lot (as well as lending me a lot of Ali footage to check out) about boxing, mostly power generation, and footwork. Not so much about the theory and tactics, though. He's one of the best fighters I know, and when we spar, he's probably up near the top (along with the other guy that's training for MMA).

From what I've seen the power generation from styles like boxing praying mantis, and some of what I do in northern Shaolin is pretty much identical as far as the principles (using the hips, torque, body weight instead of muscle, etc), but the details are different, that's all. Boxing's strength is the fact that the training is so focused on using the power generation for only your punches, they improve and become much more practical faster than most other styles. If there was a weakness, I would have to say that the defense is mainly focused against punches as well, but if they knew how to gauge distance against a kicker, they would really be a powerhouse fighter.

My friend (from above) is a killer on the inside, but his strength is his boxing footwork, used for bridging against other kickers (he knows the game, so he controls the ranges). He's got that Ali style ghost jab that can bridge through my kicking range, and after the jab lands, he's gone (he hits, then off angles behind his opponent), so you're wide open for some punishing combos. Knowing this, I used a lot more leg kicks and jams to keep the breathing room between us, and another mistake I used to make all the time was trying to shut his hands down, rather than shut his body down. He's got some Muay Thai experience as well, and his front and side kicks are killer. I don't make that mistake as much anymore, but I learned more from sparring him than I learned from sparring most martial artists from other styles.

When I work the heavy bag, I mainly use the Kung Fu style kicks, and other techniques like elbows, and knees, but the punches have a definite boxing influence now. I still throw in plenty of knife hands, and open palm strikes, but the jab, cross and hook are very prevalent. Of course they're all in praying mantis and northern Shaolin as well, but I use them more often than I used to because of my experience with a few boxers. So in a way it has influenced me, but I've never been to a formal gym with a formal coach, so I don't tell anyone that I know boxing, because that would not be showing the sport much respect. I just tell 'em that I'm influenced by the sport.

[Highlander]

Boxerchick and JazBourne,

It sounds the same, but it is quite different. I'm no expert on boxing, but if I understand the machanics, the punch moves with the body and uses body unity to generate power where as a Wing Chun punch the body moves first and the fist follows creating a whipping power.

[JasBourne]

Highlander, right on the money. WC does indeed utilize "whipping power".

Boxerchick, no we don't have uppercuts or hooks or techniques of that sort. What we have are a series of principles we follow that continually place us in a position to utilize 'whipping power' whether we are punching, striking with open palm, elbow, grabbing, trapping, eye gouging, whatever.

Yes, we have kicks. Often, we are using both hands and one leg simultaneously. None of our kicks are fancy, we never kick above the waist (why waste time putting your feet where your hands already are?), and our combat range is close in, same as western boxing.

We train VERY hard to maintain control of range - inside of kicking distance, outside of grappling range - contact range, a place that has about 4 to 6 inches of give, max. We have specific principles that put us consistently in that space, and help us adjust to maintain it. Footwork is incredibly important for that control of distance. We train to 'feel' what the opponent does, rather than see it. In fact, one of our advanced training drills is to cross hands blindfolded.

Girl, if you like body mechanichs and precision, you would LOVE wing chun!

:)

[Merryprankster]

Highlander

I think BoxerChick and JasBourne have found the common ground I think really exists.

Actually, the hook, uppercut and overhand right all have a little of that whipping power. It's not emphasized like it seems to be in wing chun, but it's not DE-emphasized either, and you aren't told not to do it. You learn to throw a hook, and the body moves just ahead of the punch itself to generate the most solid power and impact. Same with the uppercut. My overhand right is lousy, so I won't talk about it. Having seen it thrown by guys that do it well, it DOES look like the body moves pretty well ahead however.

I don't want to jump on the "we have that too," band wagon. I'm just trying to emphasize again, that it's far more alike than it is different. Just because Wing Chun emphasizes increased whipping power does not change the FUNDAMENTAL nature of the power transfer from the feet to the hips to the torso , which is probably 80-90% of the strike itself.

[Highlander]

Merryprankster,

I really hesitate to repond to this because there are so many variations on the way WC is taught and what is emphasized that I fear I will get a thousand responses saying that I am wrong and it is done this way or that way. So let me start off by saying there are different ways and none are wrong or better, just different.

Now as far as common ground, descriptions may be decieving. First off, WC does use hips and body twists and torque for power, but not always. The power in WC comes from the elbow.
Actually, there are several ways WC generates power. As far as the difference in the power, let me illustrate:

1) Picture a baseball player batting a ball. The motion starts with knee, then hips and shoulder and out to the bat. Contact is made with the ball midway through the motion. Thereby adding the kinetic energy of the body to the impact (a body in motion tends to stay in motion).

2) Now picture the motion of a whip. As the arm moves forward, the tip of the whip follows. It never catches up until the arm stops. Then it passes the hand and strikes. I know that some people aren't going to believe this, but the whip is recorded as the first machine to break the sound barrier because that is what creates the crack at the end of the motion. This utilizes E=MC2 Where E = Energy, M = Mass, and C = speed. Therefore double the speed and generate 4 times the energy. Triple the speed and generate 9 times the energy. It also uses the principles of a top where the point spins at one speed and the top which has a larger diameter spins at a much greater speed.

It is my understanding the Boxing utilizes number 1 and WC utilizes number 2. Quite different.

[Merryprankster]

Skip the E=MC^2

C is a constant--the speed of light. That equation has no particular bearing on this subject :)

I understand your point though, but I have to disagree. The POWER generation still comes from the feet through the torso--and THAT particular animal is what I'm driving it. What you do at the end of it is going to be specific from style to style, but the method of power generation itself is far more generally applicable.

I want to make sure I don't misunderstand--are you saying wing chun power comes FROM the elbow or is it expressed THROUGH the elbow. That's a COMPLETELY different animal.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

I understand your point though, but I have to disagree. The POWER generation still comes from the feet through the torso--and THAT particular animal is what I'm driving it. What you do at the end of it is going to be specific from style to style, but the method of power generation itself is far more generally applicable.


Very true. I think that 10 % makes a lot of difference though. IME, when sparring a boxer, they tend to stay a bit ****her than me. They're real good at staying just outside of reach, coming in for a nasty combo, and then hopping back out. Almost like they're hunting you. If the fight stay at this range, I get slaughtered.

If I can get to the inside, I'm a lot more comfortable and usually do better. The punches I've learned are shorter, straight shots. Almost like whole body rabbit punches. If I can get inside and stay there, I usually fair better.

There's the difference in strategy as I see it. I also think the slight differences in the mechanic are more in line with each arts philosopht on what you should be doing. Again, not better. Different.

[Merryprankster]

Water Dragon--the guys you've been fighting are apparently outside fighters. There are inside fighters, and they like to be up close. Find a short, stocky boxer, and he'll be stalking you down, looking to get inside and hit you with short, hard shots. Watch some of the early (read 'good') Tyson stuff, and you'll see an inside fighter.

So, really, it's not even a matter of philosophy--it's a matter of personal preference.

Now, where I DO agree with you is that method of delivery will make a difference in fighting philosophy. That's just flat out true, regardless!

[Highlander]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I want to make sure I don't misunderstand--are you saying wing chun power comes FROM the elbow or is it expressed THROUGH the elbow. That's a COMPLETELY different animal.

I stand corrected on the E=MC^2.

I don't quite understand what you mean by FROM the elbow or THROUGH the elbow. All I can tell you is my Sifu says generate power from the elbow. Basically when we strike we focus on pushing with the elbow. A WC fighter should be able to stand with their back to the wall and generate power in their punch without loosing contact with the wall. We do not use the shoulder to generate power in our punches (obviously the shoulder does play some part or the arm couldn't move, but it is minimal).

ATTN: Wing Chunner. Come on guys help me out here. I know there are some of you out there that know what I'm talking about but can explain it better than I can.

[Water Dragon]

Interesting. Do gyms tend to promote one specific style? Truthfully, all the Boxers I've sparred have come out of one gym. Whaddya think?

[Merryprankster]

Both yes and no.

A good trainer will try to help you be proficient in all areas. They'll help make your strong points stronger and your weak points less so. That said, the heavyweight that teaches boxing at one place I know of teaches something that looks quite a bit different than the lighter guy I go to. I think you tend to teach what you know, and the guys that you teach absorb that, and pick up little bits here and there, and use what works for them, and when they teach, they teach THEIR boxing, on down the line, and that gets adjusted and so on and so on.

So yeah, I think that one boxing gym could teach a guy to dance and another to come inside.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

I'm sort of a boxer. ;)

IMHO Boxing training is a faster way to develop fighting skills and body conditioning/Endurance.

Kung Fu is Amazing but unlike boxing it will take alot longer to become good at it.

After 3 months of boxing a fighter can become good, while after 3 years of MA a fighter can still suck.

This of course all depends on the teacher , student and the style.

I myself Love and respect all Fighting Sports and Martial Arts.

[fa_jing]

We just don't extend it away from the plane of our torso. In other words, we don't reach with the shoulder. But yes, we use the shoulder muscle, yes we turn the torso and the shoulder travels through space. What do you think all the stance turning is for? Anyway, we are visualizing the same thing, but the semantics of "WC doesn't use the shoulder" are completely wrong.
-FJ

[rubthebuddha]

as far as i can explain it, the wing chun punch gains its strength through structure. that's why we say our power comes from our feet. the overall structure of a punch with the elbow out is intrinsically less strong (not the power of the punch -- i've eaten many a hard right cross).

think on this: the shoulder is one of the most, if not the most, flexible joints on our bodies. for sheer stability, the shoulder is strongest with the elbow down, à la wing chun's lin wan kuen (straight arrow punch, the singular version of chain punches). the shoulder loses structural strength as the elbow begins to point outward more.

wing chun also takes advantage of the elbow-down position and uses it for its wonderful wedging capabilities. think about a sledge and a splitting maul. the maul, when given energy, splits through the wood, analogous to wing chun's ideal of wedging off offending limbs, hoping to get to the meaty center of the attacker.

which is more important to wing chun -- the integrity of the shoulder or the wedgingness -- is up for discussion, but we can do that later.

back to the elbow. or soon. because the shoulder is strongest when the elbow points down, it is most capable of transmitting the power that good, solid footwork can provide. if it is as a weak angle, much of that power will be lost. if it is at a strong angle, more of the power will be transmitted through the arm and into said attacker's meaty center. if i'm correct in my conclusions, it all boils down to physics and anatomy.

however, physics also tells us that inertia can give us lotsa power, too. a good, solid hook can be tremendously powerful if the legs, hips, torso, shoulder and tricep are all used properly. i believe it can be reasonably more powerful than a typical wing chun punch. this is mainly because of the momentum the punch can gain through greater distance traveled before target and power gained by using the torso natural twisting motion. a hook with just the arm moving looks and feels silly, and it doesn't generate much oomph. add a good twist of your trunk and there's a strike with some poop to its stuff.

i guess it's time to make some conclusionary effort. wing chun knows it's punches probably won't generate the same kind of end-it-all power that a lot of boxing punches. however, the wing chun chain punch is just one of the strikes we have. to that, i say rubthefaksau. wing chun willingly accepts slightly less power for the stability and the use of the elbow for our delightful wedging efforts, which spawn that better-than-chocolate-cake stuff called chi sau.

this is not to say that wing chun is better. all martial arts make certain sacrifices in order to obtain certain benefits. i get upset when people say one style is better, especially when they've only done that one preferable style. i like it when people try several, find one or two and stick with them for GOOD reasons that make sense to and for themselves.

oh, and keep in mind, all these statements are from a guy who studies ggm leung ting's wing tsun, so my statements about wing chun in general may be not broadly accurate. the typical boxing-type punches i write about are grounded in my years and years doing tae kwon do as a kid and teen. tkd punches are standard enough, methinks.

[rubthebuddha]

one thing to add to that: by strength of the shoulder, i did not mean brute force sourced at muscles like deltoids, pecs, etc. i mean structural integrity (no star trek jokes, please). as in, the knee is structurally weak from either side, and thus can be screwed if struck from either side.

[Highlander]

Thanks guys for jumping in here. I was feeling a little over my head trying to explain this.

[Merryprankster]

yes, but buddha:

Would you describe the power generation of wing chun as being significantly different than some other style? That is, is the power transfer from ground to torso in an analogous strike (no sense in comparing the right cross to the hook, etc) so fundamentally different that a person in another style would look at and go "gee, how the heck does that work?" (see my non-ma example above)

I think all strikes rely to a good deal on proper structural integrity. I can FEEL the difference when I pivot properly on a right cross and have a solid structure behind it. There's a giant difference to me.

Also, just IMO, I think a proper hook is a relatively "short" punch when thrown properly. The distance between it's start and it's finish is not very big. But I do understand what you are saying, so I'm not really disagreeing with you :)

[rubthebuddha]

yeah, you're right on the hooks. i was just using it as an example. but it can work for a right cross, too, because there is a weight transfer that adds power and a rotation at the hips. heck, even wing chun has a hook and an uppercut, and a good deal of power on these is from the hips.

however, taking two of the most similar and common strikes in boxing and wing chun -- the cross and the chain punch -- and we can break down the similarities and the differences:

similarities
1. both are straight (the chain punch slightly moreso)
2. both use the body to help generate power
3. both use the tricep as a huge power source by extending the arm through the target


differences
1. the power gained from footwork in the chain punch is from moving the whole body as one complete structure, and thus power is found in using the body's most stable and structurally sound angles and stepping forward through the target, but ...

the power gained in a right cross' footwork is gained by transferring the weight to a stationary point (the front foot) and transferring that momentum all the way out to the fist.

2. the integrity of a wing chun punch is based on the strongest available angle for the shoulder. this is why baseball players get rotator problems so often -- a ballplayer can throw a ball exceptionally fast, but if the shoulder is not properly warm, the whipping motion on a weak and awkward angle of the shoulder causes said player to park his bum on the bench after his doctor tells him he tore/screwed/demolished his rotating bits.


both of these lists can be a heckuvalot bigger, but those, i think, are the important parts. in all generality, you're pushing your fist through someone's face, using power generated from your whole body. how the power gets there and how the fist is composed isn't as important as the ugly dent you're inflicting upon someone's grill. :cool:

[rubthebuddha]

and i just realized my language up there sounds really arrogant about wing chun. it's not meant to be, and i'm too hungry to change it right now (lunch time). rest assured that, with the exception of tae bo, i have a great deal of respect for any martial goodness. it's with individual stylists that i begin to make my distinctions between stout fellow and worthless sunomobeach.

so please forgive me if i sound like i'm saying wing chun is the best thing since sliced bread. i don't mean to sound like it.

[Merryprankster]

But the power comes up from the feet and does involve turning of the torso to properly "drive" the punch, correct?

In other words, while the chain punch might be alien to the boxer, would he find the power generation to be alien--slightly different, perhaps, but more or less something he's familiar with, at least conceptually?

In other words, the boxer would recognize this as power generation?

[JasBourne]

rtbuddah: Stout fellow, well done. I actually learned from all that.


:)

[Merryprankster]

I liked it too.

I'm not sure about transfering the weight to the front foot on a cross though. I'll have to check that next time I'm punching a bag. I've been concentrating so much on ensuring I pivot properly, I've not been thinking about the left side :)

[wushu chik]

Gosh you guys...thanks for all the compliments and backup......WesternBoxer...you are even more of an idiot now, because you don't know what the hell I know, or what I look like, so therefor you have no right to judge my looks by my mouth(boxing) ;) ANYWAYS...u are the one with your panties in a bunch....and you wouldn't know what hit you if i DID kick you in the jaw....and Rubthebuddhas...you are right, I WOULDN'T spill my tea!!!

~wen~

[rubthebuddha]

do you guys realize how much it was driving me nuts that i couldn't just SHOW you the difference -- actually demonstrate the technique in front of you? you guys know how the typical boxer throws a cross. however, in wing chun, the body usage is completely different, and i really wanted to show you the differences -- i wanted to provoke a few light bulbs.

oh well. thanks for the compliments. happy i could help. :)

and merryprankster: i didn't mean transferring all the weight to that front foot. just most styles that have similar punch forms as the tkd i learned may start 50-50 or 60-40 or whatever, but there is a fair amount of weight being transferred to that front foot to maximize the power of the strike. once that strike has either missed or increased someone's dental bill, the weight, like the punch, retracts to its original position, hoping to make the aforementioned attacker uglier again.

and again.

and again.

as far as power generation, boxers are pretty darn keen at recognizing such generation, so yeah. time for more anology:

i drive a car to travel. i understand concepts of internal combustion, power transmission, power distribution and traction really well. i also understand the secondary concepts of direct-current electricty to power the extraneous stuff and to keep my battery nice and charged. all this comes into play for better, more solid driving on my part, and if something is not working right, i can stop and examine a specific part -- say, my distributor -- and realize that, without proper current being routed to necessary bits, my car won't drive for poop. i take that one piece, fix it, and i'm golden.

i also fly to travel. however, for this, i'm along for the ride. i understand little about jet propulsion and aerodynamics when applied to air travel (i know 'em well when applied to that ground stuff). all the little bits on planes confound the hell out of me.

the point? simple. i can look at either method and say, they both get me somewhere. one i know how and why, the other i don't. but i can still recognize the effects.

by the same token, a boxer, who may have no clue why i'm stepping with all the weight my back leg and my feet are flat on the ground and i'm punching with my elbow down with a vertical fist, will be able to recognize that my motion, coupled with a punch, will make someone uglier than even a loving mother could endure.

sorry i'm so long winded. but you provoked me and i had to respond properly. :cool:

merryp: one more thing: protect that left side, else you'll get your back exposed faster than you can say, "please, not in the bum." ;)

[Merryprankster]

eh, don't worry--left side's protected. I just mean I've not been paying attention to exactly what happens when I throw a proper cross. I've just been concentrating on what it feels like when I hit the bag :)

[rubthebuddha]

good. i don't want to hear any horror stories next time you're online. :)

[Merryprankster]

If you hear any horror stories it will be from jiujitsu. I have yet to be injured boxing.

[rubthebuddha]

egads, man. you couldn't be more right.

[NorthernMantis]

Well I practice praying mantis boxing.

[SevenStar]

"A step, however is not fundamentally necessary. When you DON'T step with a jab, the snap in it DOES come from hip torque. "

I was gonna say that. I tell ya, You miss a couple of days, and you miss out on all the good threads.

[CD Lee]

Almost all power comes from the ground and is transferred throught various body parts.

A great example to visualize or even try is to imagine being suspended in the air, with no contact with the ground, and throwing punches with power. You will thow them, but they will have no power. Imagine hitting a baseball hard in the same position.

This is why in tennis, where power also comes from the ground, that you lose power if you jump before you contact the tennis ball, versus being pulled into the air after contact. Both ways appear to jump, but the first lacks power.

Batting baseball on ice. Throwing punches on ice. Golfing in mud without spikes. All good examples.

[Merryprankster]

Right CD,

But the QUESTION is whether or not, at their core, there is something FUNDAMENTALLY different about the way power is transfered from the feet to the striking surface.

I say not, others say there is. Difference of opinion. No biggie.

[CD Lee]

Merry:

Uhhh, I just do not understand your statement. State the question completely on it's own accord for me please. This is a great subject. I want to understand what you mean. Thanks!