Chiang Jung-Ch'iao's Ba gua

[Anthroman]

Hello All,
I have studied Chiang jung-Ch'iao's ba gua form (original form) and was reading that he had two versions of his form that he taught. I was wondering if anyone could explain or highlight some of the differences in the two versions. Thank you.
Anthroman

[jon]

Wow how bizare, i was considering posting on this form as well becouse its what im studying but now you have done it for me:)
To the best of my knowledge Chang Jung-Chaio's other form was called the 'combined form' becouse it combined his Xing-Yi knowledge along with his Bagua knowledge.
My sifu just teaches the orginal and im perfectly happy with that.
My Sigung was a training partner of Chang Jung Chiao under the same sifu though im yet to find out his name as asking such questions is VERY difficualt when you dont speak chinese:rolleyes:
Still i got that part out of him:)
How are you finding the form? Im falling in love with it, im learning the fourth section atm.
My sifu tell me this form is one of the closest to the orginal teachings. Though im sure every linage says that;)

[Crimson Phoenix]

I study Jiang's bagua with a direct student of Jiang...from what I understand, we have at least two Jiang forms, a basic one and an advanced one.
I don't know much more, because in fact my sifu emphasizes that body structure is everything and that movements are secondary, so basically he teaches you a move and you practice it until you have the correct body structure. So I've been training the basic Jiang eight palm for 1 year and a half, they already mix xing yi in them. But what I am sure of is that after there's "Jiang's baguazhang" (well, the other one also is a Jiang bagua form, but it is just called "the 8 palms"), a much more refined and advanced form. I saw him practice it once, it's quite an amazing form.
I never really asked if there are other forms in his bagua, because I feel I still have a great margin of progress within this one, and as I said, although he would teach me the "Jiang's bagua" form if I wanted, I feel it's useless and prefer trying to perfect my 8 palms instead. He says that you can perfectly gain the structure with the basic 8 palms and when you have done so learning and practicing correctly "Jiang's bagua" is just a matter of learning the sequence...
All of this to say that I'm sure there are at least two forms, but I don't know if there are more.
Hope that has been of any help...

[Drone]

Hi Anthroman
Good question? Jon i have a question for you... Do you happen to know if (the hsing i) ba gua form has more fists or does it simply utilize a more linear energy? Thanks.

[Ka]

Like many MA styles the further from the souce the more the dilution.There are two main froms derived from JRJ but there are many variations/interpartations that have come into being.Usually just a diference of emphasis by the teacher according to his preferences.I would have to agree with CP that body structure and application of power through fluid motion takes pirority.
The combined JRJ form that I have come across "missses" a few of the lower moves and had a different emphasis on certian moves.This however was show to me by a WuShu advocate so I could not confirm exactly where he got it from,in his carreer of memoizing as many forms as possible.
Jon ask him
Nin jiao shenme mingzi?
Thats what is your name
I might add that JRJ form is popular/commonplace mainly because he was an active publisher and promoted his CTH stlye form so it received the title of the orginal form.

[jon]

Drone
"Jon i have a question for you... Do you happen to know if (the hsing i) ba gua form has more fists or does it simply utilize a more linear energy? Thanks."
* To be honest im not sure becouse i havent seen it, what i know is that the orginal form was pure Bagua and closely resembled if not was exactly the form as CJC was taught it. The combined form is just a mix of Bagua and his Xing Yi knowledge, its not really more advanced or less its just a mix rather than pure.
Im afraid im not sure exactly what changes there are or what the fist situation is becouse ive simply not seen the form.

Ka
"Jon ask him
Nin jiao shenme mingzi?
Thats what is your name "
* His name is William Ho.
When i asked him i think the main problem was that he partly didnt understand the question and more likely didnt think i would understand the answer.
I managed to point at him and say 'sifu?' then i pointed at CJC's name in print as its written on the form texts. He told me 'no training brother Chang Jung-Chiao' but he didnt give me a name.
I know the guy was a friend of his father and his father was a well known Tai Chi practioner.


This is also my reasons for thinking that the CJC orginal version must be pretty old as by following my teachers cryptic words i can assume his teacher and CJC at some stage shared the same sifu and the two forms are EXACT. Also why would he have named it the 'orginal' and yet still taught a form of his own design in the combinded. The only differences we have to the texts are a bit more detail and lower stances. The low stances change the form from being not to difficault to being downright hard, but they also add to the power. I dont mean wushu low, i just mean lower than the pics in the text.

Anyway this is cool to know there are others studying the same thing i am:D

[batesy]

I study the "original" Tung form and have seen two versions. One, my which my teacher has (and from what i can gather does with quite a Xing Yi flavour to it), and a second which is Erle Montaigue's version. You might find it useful to check out his Bagua tape MTG4 Circular & Linear forms. Erle's looks very different, more snappy, maybe he is emphasising more of the fa jing element, I'm not knowledgeable enough to judge. Hope this is helpful.

[Anthroman]

Jon,
I'm also glad to see other people out there doing the same form. I like the form alot. I've been studying it for a little over two years and it always amazes me the endless amount of things you can learn from one form.

Batesy,
The form I study now is the Erle Montaigue version. Could you explain a little more about how your form looks compared to his. Do you know anyone who has a tape of your version?

Thanks alot,
Anthroman

[Ka]

Yep got to agree with Batesy here,I have lerant Will Hos and Earles and the attitude to the movements are quite different.
Jon also if you are interested I have access to a copy of J Crandells translation of BGZ practise method by Jiang Rong Qiao.
It has pictures of his form,there are some differences to both the above mentioned teachers forms.
I beleive Jiang's main teachers where Li Cunyi and Zhang Zhankui.
The veiw about the" Original " title that Jiang form is given is not to say that it is what Dong taught,rather I think it was to do with the fact that he was a strong promoter of IMA and published many books on BGZ,XYQ etc.He became the most publicly taught form in the Beijing and USA and other forgien countries.This is not to say it is better or worse then Yin stlye Gao style Fu stlye etc just that it is different.
I hope this doesn't open up a debate like the old Yang stlye
anyway
have a nice day

[jon]

Anthroman
This is kinda crazy, ive only been learning Bagua for 3 weeks, ive been training every day for two lessons on average a day but my progress has been nothing short of nuts.
Im already up to the fifth change:eek: I know this is VERY quick but i do have five years of Hung behind me and he is only at the moment teaching me the general movements not the exact ins and outs.
Still my progress has shocked everyone, the last student took a year just to learn the movements and at my rate ill be done in just over a month:)
I fully plan on perfecting the form though, i have been astonded by the ammont in it. I spend whole lessens just mucking around with different addaptions of the first change. Let alone the others
:eek:
Still before anyone jumps on my sifu keep in mind im only learning the movements and the odd application when i simply cant understand what im doing. He seems to teach the form totaly first and then go's back though on detail energy and application.
He also usualy go's though many basics but due to my previous training i breezed though all of them in 3 days.
Also im as stated training 4-6 hours a day so im sure that has a lot to do with my speed.
Sorry to brag, just im pretty pleased with how im going and wanted to tell someone. Hope you dont all think im a braggart but i did want to blow my own trumpet just a little:D
Back to your orginal point... I totaly agree on the detail front, i spent all day today on the forth change and im still no where near even comprehending the flow properly. For just one form its astounding. I only wish my Hung was all one form:)

Ka
Im very sure you are correct about the CJC orginal not being the only 'true' form around and i certainly dont think its any better or worse than any other Bagua linage.
I guess all im trying to imply is that i personaly believe that it must be quite close to the orginal teachings of Dong Hai Chan. I know its proberly not what Dong Hai Chan taught exactly but i dont think its far off it either. The form is more about power generation and flow than it is about specific technique and that fits in very well with much about 'old' Bagua that ive heard.
I also know that CJC was a big writter and did a lot to publicise the art, he was also a Xing Yi master and a Wudang swordsman so its also possible he called his form the 'orginal' simply becouse it was pure Bagua and was not mixed with any of his other skills.
Either way for me im just happy that its close to the orginal teachings and the way its designed is just superb. Many parts of it can be addapted to the individual and the fighting aspects of it [that ive been either shown or pulled out] are just superb.

"Jon also if you are interested I have access to a copy of J Crandells translation of BGZ practise method by Jiang Rong Qiao. "
* I would definately be interested in that, I have a photocopy of a few old chinese books on the art.
There mainly illustrations relating to application but there pretty darn nice. The best of which is written by Lee Ying-Arng.
One of the wierder ones is a Bagua kicking manual which shocked the pants off me:D
Anyway hope your enjoying your training everybody and let me know how you guys are doing with the form and what your finding though it.
Ka, how did you feel CJC version measures up to the other version your learning?

PS I gotta say, Master Ho himself usualy performs the form slow and without apparent power. I have however gotten him to show me some of it full speed. He can certainly move exceptionaly well, he can also certainly apply power and has shown me already in several movements where to apply ging and speed as he has picked up im combat orientated.

Respects and regards
Jon

[Crimson Phoenix]

I guess there is no original BGZ

[jon]

"I guess there is no original BGZ"
* Just as total wild speculation...
My personal theory is that Dong Hai Chan proberly never taught a particular full form but maybe did invent several changes and would have certainly taught circle walking. I suspect he addapted his teachings to fit his different students and actively encouraged them to invent forms on there own based on his theory for application.
I suspect that this is why even to this day there is a LOT of variation in Bagua from differing linages to even differening persectives within the same linage. Its all good though, the seeds are strong enough that the fruit is always worth the tasting no matter what the color.
Still this is just my own rommantic view.

[wind]

Jian's teacher Zhang zhaodong who was a xingyi master ,he learnt bagua from Cheng tian hua not directly from Dong haichuan, they just learnt from each other. The power issued in Zhang's bagua is actually xingyi power. This style also has some two-man set form . Today some cheng style bagua still practicing xingyi as their basic training.

[Ka]

Ok could be a long answer,I have found 3 versions of JRJ one WH one Earle and one other gent who just practises in the park.As I mentioned before there are minor variations in each which I would put down to differing emphasis of interpartation somewhere along the line.One of the most obivous differences would be(understanding that there are variations as to what each group calls these moves)Purple swallow Opens the Scissors and Close the Door and Push the Moon in the single Palm change.Earle who describes it as Purple swallow Throws Fan and CtDPTM practises as a fajin movement the left palm striking your right arm at colan 15 then bounces out in a strike with the weight remaining on the rear leg.Difference being the pivot action and weighing of rear leg then straight into baibu.When I read that back it's not so clear,best just to meet up some time.
Where it gets real interesting for me is some other different stlyes that have come to light in Sydney.A friend practises a stlye that has him learning different aniamal forms each representing a different attitude in attack.Interestly enough these are performed walking the circle and in short straight line forms.
The stlye which I am currently learning has a greater emphasis on the single and double palm change as well as circle walking qigong.Single and double being of totally different movement to that of JRJ stlye with a much greater emphasis on Kou bu, Baibu and movement required in circle walking.Concentration is then on partner work , rolling hands and 2person circle walking.Stimulas is prestented in the form of an attack and reaction,then it is given variation after variation going through each element from distancing to closing to consuming.Focus always on flow and fluid power generation from one move to the next,we are encouraged to keep moving even if something has not worked.
Yet another style I have come across has its 8 palm changes (different moves again) and then a linear form (different from Earles)64 palms 72 kicks.
Like you commented I feel that most of these variations are taking slices of the same pie just the baking method is different.One of the things in common is the shared principles which vary little from style to style.
always happy to investiagate and try a new style.

;)

[Crimson Phoenix]

Jon, indeed I share your theory (but now it can't be my personal theory since it's already yours?? heheheheheeheh).
The researches of my bagua sifu, Wong Tun Ken, seem to point out to it too, that indeed circle walking was the core, along with the palm changes, but there was no fixed and complete form, rather a set of principles and techniques devised by Dong...it's a well known fact that Dong almost never taught complete beginners and that except a few his students already had a strong martial background, and that said it is easy to understand why there are so many baguas: each student adapted Dong's set of techniques and principles in their practice according to their understanding, which was heavily influenced by their martial past...
So in that sense there is no original bagua and everyone back in the day was right :D

[jon]

Ka
I feel like quite a fool, i only just figured out who you are and that we have had contact before:rolleyes:
I will send you an email and give you some solid contact details so we can meet up, im looking forward to seeing a few of the different variations. Im loving Bagua its just so deep and so addaptable. Anyway ill email you and hopefully we can meet up soon, im in the city every day with Ho sifu so it shouldnt be to tricky.
Also debating going to see Con and getting some Xing Yi lessons for a bit of extra varity.
Anyway Gung Hay Fat Choy and ill hopefully meet up soon
:)

Crimson Phoenix
Im Glad to hear someone else shares my views:)
hehe i guess now its more a shared theory than a common one;)
How long have you studied for?

[Ka]

jon�Agood value,glad to hear your enjoying your time with Ho sifu.I have to agree I think BGZ is the good oil.Have you meet Con?I will be interested to hear what you think of his teaching.

Happy New Year to you too,xin nian kuai le(I only know mardarin) I will try and get down to the gardens,are you there in the afternoons or mornings.
Better yet I'll mail you

[batesy]

Anthroman
Sorry for the delay in replying, I've just got back from holiday. One or two brief points on how my teachers bagua differs from Erle's.
1. Movements like purple swallow fans its tail, we do this in a horse stance with a slight weight bias in the direction of the strike. The hands, ahhhh it's hard to describe, in striking right, the right hand is low by the right thigh, the left hand pushes out near the right bicep in a slight clawing action. From what I've seen of Erle's version this movement is quite forceful with the hands smacking together. We have a similar move later on in the monkey palm change, which I am told is similar to "dove" in Xing Yi.
2. In Purple swallow seizes water (apologies if you have different names for these posture) we are told to keep the torso erect, while I think Erle has his upper torso parallel with the ground.

In my limited experience, it looks like Erle's version is more fa jing orientated, making it more snappy then flowing (not a criticism). Please tell me if I'm right about this.

Hope some of this is useful/of interest.

Take care
Batesy