When to eat what??

[Galadriel]

Hey guys,

so far I've gathered that you should eat protein after training so your body doesn't "eat" up your muscles, but how can you make your body "eat" up body fat??

I wanna improve the muscles, but more importantly I wanna loose fat, so what should I be eating after training??

Thanks,

Galadriel

[Repulsive Monkey]

If anyone has advised you to eat directly after training, then it doesn't matter what food stuff they have mentioned, they have given you bad advice. Eating directly after training just like just before can upset the Spleen and Stomach functions and lay down the foundations to poor health.

[Galadriel]

How long should you wait then to eat after training??


Galadriel

[Repulsive Monkey]

If is something light like a thin soup maybe, then I would still wait at least half-an-hour. However if it is a propoer meal one should probably wait at least an hour. This goes for consumption of food before practice too.

[Robinf]

The way to strip body fat is by a proper diet, resistance training and aerobic exercise. A proper diet is one where you eat only the calories you need to eat to maintain good health. If you're trying to get bigger then eat a little more. If you're trying to get smaller, then eat a little less. There really aren't any magic foods that will help you burn body fat, your body has to burn the fat itself.

Robin

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
If anyone has advised you to eat directly after training, then it doesn't matter what food stuff they have mentioned, they have given you bad advice. Eating directly after training just like just before can upset the Spleen and Stomach functions and lay down the foundations to poor health.

Please post some evidence or sane reasoning behind this, as I've never heard of this from anyone but you. Maybe the thousands of people are wrong and you are right but at least try to offer evidence when you offer such contradictory advice. RM you continually make statements like these and I fear for those who blindly take your advice. You have never once offered any evidence and the last time I argued with you the best you could offer was that it was standard chinese medicine. This is not valid and I'd ask you to provide some science before I consider anything you say valid. Thanks.

Until such time I would advice to take in something light as soon as possible post-training and then eat a meal 30 mins to an hour after. After workout your body has depleted itself of it's energy stores and requires nutrients to recover.

Listen to Robin about diet, and just keep staying active on a regular basis. Diet is the key though.

[yenhoi]

You have never once offered any evidence and the last time I argued with you the best you could offer was that it was standard chinese medicine. This is not valid and I'd ask you to provide some science before I consider anything you say valid. Thanks.

Jerk.

Maybe Braden can give you a lesson in what "science" is?

Dont eat right after training unless its a power bar or a bannana or something.

I dont have any "science" to back me up either, but Im sure not eating a meal right after or right before training has something (not everything) to do with blood flow (and lots of other stuff.)

Or you can find some "science" to blindly follow, even though Elpietro said the same thing as RM.

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by yenhoi


Jerk.

Maybe Braden can give you a lesson in what "science" is?

Dont eat right after training unless its a power bar or a bannana or something.

I dont have any "science" to back me up either, but Im sure not eating a meal right after or right before training has something (not everything) to do with blood flow (and lots of other stuff.)

Or you can find some "science" to blindly follow, even though Elpietro said the same thing as RM.

Blindly follow science?

You have officially won the dumbest statement of the year award.

Oh and if someone can give me a lesson I'd be happy to learn. That's why I'm here. If I can help I will post, if I want to learn I ask or read...which is what I did here. If people blindly followed all suggestions there'd be a lot of f*cked up people out there. I do my research as much as possible and if someone is not prepared to offer reasoning or proof a post like yours certainly isn't going to change my mind. Go troll somewhere else.

I will not respond to the rest of your post as it is pretty much a waste of my time. Oh and thank you for calling me jerk when asking for proof. I guess I should 'blindly' follow all suggestions when someone on the internet says "chinese medicine says so", and just start changing all my habits without any research or justification. How foolish of me...

[yenhoi]

What is the difference between "chinese says so" and "science says so?"

If "science says so" and "chinese says so" does that make it so?

If only "science says so" do you demand that "chinese says so" also?

Or

Is "science says so" good enough?

Quote from Braden on cyberkwoon:

The source of this confusion arises from popular misunderstanding of the nature of western science. In the western tradition, there is a field of study which concerns itself with describing the actual nature of reality. It is called metaphysics. Metaphysics and science are two different and independant fields of study. Corrolary: science is NOT, contrary to popular belief, the study of the actual nature of reality.

Science is a field of study which has a very specific requirement for practice. In science, you propose a theory and then observe reality to test that theory. The goal of science, insofar as there is one, is to create theories which better account for observations. Please distinguish this from 'describing the actual nature of reality.' It is clear from this deliniation that anything that can be observed is 'within the domain of western science.'

Which leads to a popular misconception concerning the definition of 'within the domain of western science.' Specifically, this is often taken to mean 'has allready been described in the tradition of western science.' Clearly, if this were the case, there could be no progress in western science, as this definition does not allow for any novel theories, nor discussion of novel observations. Obviously, this is not the case. Please consider the implications of the fact that 'within the domains of western science' does NOT mean 'has allready been described in the tradition of western science.'

End Quote.

Elpietro:

Calling you a jerk had nothing to do with your use of the word science. Your a jerk for calling for "scientific" evidence and then saying basically the same thing as RM. You also gave no "scientific" evidence.

It was also more of a playfull "jerk" but since this is a internet forum, its even _more_ playfull!

"Blindly following science" I meant like when someone eats something just because the label says "All natural and organic" read the nutrition table and remember that dog poo is also all natural and organic.

[ElPietro]

Well first of all there is a big difference between a scientific theory and what I mean by a scientific explanation. Generally if someone tells me to do something I ask why. And if they say because they say so then that isn't a valid reason. I did back up what I said. I stated that after you exercise your body is in need of nutrients. This is true and I feel obvious and if you wish to question this statement then I will dig up scientific research if needed. When your body requires nutrients the best process to solve this problem is to give it nutrients. This again is quite obvious. I didn't say the same thing as repulsive monkey, although I see how you can view it that way. If I didn't have a shake I'd still probably want something solid to eat rather than nothing at all. The digestion process isn't instantaneous and this is the reason fluid or whey protein shakes are recommended. Because it becomes available to your body much quicker than traditional whole foods. If you wish research material please look up bio availability.

Scientific theory is just a method of making hypothesis and extrapolations. There are ways to prove things or explain things, and generally when I say science I am talking on the molecular or micro level. So if I asked someone about the science behind muscle mechanics I would be asking about myofibrils and sarcoplasmic reticulums, or actin and myosin, or calcium and atp. Generally I don't think we need to go to this level but I'd definitely like to get some form of reasoning when someone starts mentioning different organs in the body. The human body is a very complex organism and to just blindly accept what a chinese textbook says, or better yet someone on the internet, is just plain foolish. I use this site to learn and enjoy being proved wrong as this means something I falsely believed has been revealed to me and I've been enlightened. But I will not be someone who just accepts information that has been spoonfed to me and then preach about it elsewhere without understanding what I am saying. These are the people that upset me because they could be harming others with their advice, whether intentional or not.

Oh and that quote you posted offers nothing interesting or informative. It is simply a longwinded way of defining science in pigeon hole fashion. People in China have muscle fibres with all the same tendons and ligaments as those in the west. Anatomy is universal.

[ElPietro]

Oh and yeah sorry, I guess I didn't really take offence at the jerk comment. I figured you were probably joking but I wasn't sure, since I don't think I've seen you post in the training section much. ;)

[yenhoi]

I just noticed your a jedi, so I take back the jerk thing.

I agree with you, do your own research and dont just accept somebody or some system or some statement.

Question:

So you workout and leave your body in need of nutrients, would it be better to stock up on those nutrients before the workout (pre-workout shake?) or is the body just taxed and requres (or works better with) that 'fresh' nutrient uptake (shortly after the workout) for the best results? Does it make a huge amount of difference for someone who is not trying to gain weight?

[Paul]

your body stores carbohydrates as glycogen more efficiently immediately following a workout. which can help you recover from a workout more quickly.

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Question:

So you workout and leave your body in need of nutrients, would it be better to stock up on those nutrients before the workout (pre-workout shake?) or is the body just taxed and requres (or works better with) that 'fresh' nutrient uptake (shortly after the workout) for the best results? Does it make a huge amount of difference for someone who is not trying to gain weight?

There is always going to be debate on what is the ideal macronutrient breakdown pre and post workout. This of course is swayed by your goals. What is generally recommended and I'd agree with is to consume some carbs about 30 mins to an hour before you workout. This will make sure you have muscle glycogen which is going to be the largest energy source for your workout. Exercising intensely will deplete that pretty quickly though and then your body will be using less glycogen and more fat and protein as fuel. Fat is good to burn, protein is not so good, mainly because this is the building block for muscles, and having protein broken down to the basic amino components means less for your muscles which can limit growth and actually catabolize the muscle tissue. After your workout you are in the equivalent of a fasted state and your body is depleted in muscle glycogen, most likely liver glycogen, and is also in need of protein to start the recovery process. If you don't eat anything your body WILL recover but less optimally.

High GI carbs will spike insulin levels which basically "unlock" your cells to nutrients. One word of caution would be to limit your fat intake as much as possible post-workout, especially when insulin is high. Because your cells have been "unlocked" this means that consumed fat will go and park quite happily into your fat cells, which to most people isn't a desired result.

This is why you see many people using grape juice or dextrous or maltodextrin with their protein and creatine. They are simple, high GI carbs that will generate an insulin spike to maximize the uptake time of the creatine and protein, to the muscle cells.

I'm not an expert on this and it's a fairly debated topic but these generalizations I've listed should give you a decent understanding. Sorry for the long post but it isn't something that can be said in a couple lines.

[RAF]

I loved this post from another website!


Orthorexia-When the Urge to 'Eat Right' Goes Wrong
Mon Feb 11, 1:27 PM ET
By Andrew Quinn
SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - All right, everybody, eat your vegetables. Now eat ONLY vegetables. Now, eat ONLY vegetables that have just been picked--and then make sure you chew each mouthful at least 50 times.


Steven Bratman started out on a sensible diet. He ended up suffering from a newly defined disorder--"orthorexia nervosa," an unhealthy obsession with healthy eating.

Bratman, a doctor who specializes in alternative medicine, has single-handedly added a new page to the annals of America's obsession with food and diet.

A 25-year veteran of the communal kitchens and vegetarian co-ops of America's natural food movement, Bratman is now campaigning against what he calls excessive dedication to increasingly strict diets that can leave the body starved for basic nutrition.

"I am not really presenting this as a medical issue, but I want people to reconsider what they are doing," Bratman said in an interview.

"Most of America would do better by improving their diet, there's no doubt. However, in the realm of health food, there are lots of people who would do better by going the other way, by loosening up."

AN EXTREME EATER

Bratman--a graduate of the University of California, Davis medical school who coined the term "orthorexia nervosa" in a 1996 article--knows whereof he speaks.

As a cook and organic farmer at a large commune in New York state in the 1970s, Bratman was a self-described "extreme eater" who found himself in a hotbed of new age food theories contested by people in opposing dietary camps.

Meat was bad, that much was agreed. But beyond that lay a complex set of often contradictory pronouncements on what constituted "good food."

Chopped vegetables? Forget it--destroys their natural energy fields. Honey? Poison, pure and simple. Garlic and onions? Best avoided--unhealthy effect on the sex drive.

Amid a cacophony of competing menus, Bratman quickly forged his own dietary regime, eating only vegetables just plucked from the ground and chewing each mouthful 50 times.

"After a year or so of this self-imposed regime, I felt light, clear headed, energetic, strong and self-righteous," Bratman wrote in an account of his experience.

"I regarded the wretched, debauched souls around me downing their chocolate chip cookies and fries as mere animals reduced to satisfying gustatory lusts."

Bratman says that, like many orthorexics, he became increasingly inflexible about his dietary restrictions, urging others to follow his lead and punishing himself when he strayed to the cupboard of forbidden foods.

"It is almost impossible to become orthorexic without believing in one dietary theory or another," he said. "They are pseudo-religious."

Bratman says he ended up on the road to a full-fledged eating disorder, similar to anorexia or bulimia.

He eventually dubbed it "orthorexia"--after the Greek for "correct appetite"--and in 2000 wrote a book entitled "Health Food Junkies: Overcoming the Obsession with Healthful Eating" published by Broadway Books in New York.

While orthorexia has not been officially recognized in treatment books on mental illness, the term has sparked Internet discussion threads and support groups, and been hailed by no less an authority than the Journal of the American Medical Association (news - web sites).

"I suspect that orthorexia is a far more common eating disorder than anorexia nervosa and bulimia," Dr. Adriane Fugh-Berman wrote in a JAMA review of Bratman's book, adding that he "makes an excellent case for the term orthorexia nervosa to enter the medical lexicon."

Holly Hoff, a program director at the National Eating Disorders Association, said that while orthorexia had not yet officially joined the ranks of established eating disorders, it was increasingly an area of concern.

"The key issue in any eating disorder is when a person's attitude toward food, weight or exercise is significant enough to change how they live their lives," Hoff said. "If they are thinking about it for the majority of the day, then that is something to be concerned about."

WHAT'S EATING THESE PEOPLE?

Bratman's warning on the dangers of overzealous dieting comes amid a profusion of popular theories on the risks and benefits of various eating programs.

Old standards like macrobiotic diets, which typically encourage followers to consume locally grown, seasonal organic foods, now vie with a raft of diets that range from simple to simply dangerous.

Fruitarians, for instance, insist on eating only raw fruit and seeds, which they deem "the highest moral level of nutrition," while "paleodiet" enthusiasts believe that modern humans should eat nothing but fruit, fish, nuts and lots of lean meat just as their hunter-gatherer ancestors did.

One health diet is so strict it bans food entirely. The Breatharians say humans can exist purely on light--a claim that has been extensively debunked.

Bratman says most of these diets, if pursued rigorously, can lead to orthorexia--which, like many eating problems, can be much more about psychological control than about any specific food.

But while obsessive compulsion plays a role in many orthorexia cases, it is not the only warning sign. Simple food allergies can lead some people to orthorexia as they cut out food group after food group in an effort to stay healthy, while self-esteem and "dietary identity" can also play a role.

"Some people need to belong," Bratman said. "They can say: 'I know I am a raw food vegetarian, so I know who I am."'

Despite the growing popularity of the concept, there are currently few treatment options for orthorexics. Bratman says he got over his natural food obsession with the help of a Benedictine monk who helped him to see the joys of Chinese food and ice cream.

Also, "being able to laugh at yourself helps a lot," Bratman said.

But he added that one of the chief warning signs of orthorexia--caring more about the "virtue" of a food than the pleasure you get from eating it--should not be ignored.

"Eating for pleasure is part of human life," Bratman said. "Any move to give that up should be seen as a very dramatic and radical change."



--Previous Message--
: Can anyone explain what a good diet would be to
: supplement your Internal martial arts, or
: for that matter any martial arts- for the
: better? Any advice would be appreciated.
: Thanks-Steve

[mad taoist]

The macrobiotic viewpoint is that excercise is Yang acid forming, thus don't eat any yang acid foods; namely meats. Yin alkaline foods (to balance out) are fruits, but not too many.

They also found out that drinking coffee (and alot of proffessional sports people attest to this also) helps the body metabolize fat. Mind you, alot of proffessionals do sometimes attest to bull**** :)

[red_fists]

Interesting Thread.

Now I train internal Arts and we are also NOT supposed to eat within 1 Hour before and after training.
Heard the same thing from some Qi-Gong
practicioners.

Also kind of accepted where I grew up that you don't do any heavy exercise soon after a Meal or before one.

Makes me wonder why western and eastern cultures came up with similar rules.

Sorry, no proof of those either. :)

[Sharky]

ignoring the p*ssing contest, i usually have a banana or two straight after exercise, and lots of water. this fills me up quite a lot actually.

i will then wait till i am hungry before i eat again :)

i am however a sucker for having dinner then buggering off the the gym/boxing and nearly being sick :(

i guess there just aren't enough hours in the day :(

[FlyingDragonFan]

How about this situation?

Because of work and the distance from the kwoon to my house, my workout is essentially the last thing I do each day. I practice, and don't get home usually until around 10 p.m. How should I eat when I get home? I know I should replenish my body of whatever I burned off in the workout, but I also don't want to eat a heavy meal and then go straight to bed. Is some sort of protein shake the way to go?

[prana]

My blind assumption is that the average man who can post on this forum has had enough nutrition in a day so that he can go to bed without really having to "eat" anything. But I would think that a diluted "gatorade" about 1 part to 5 parts water would be great to replenish fluids lost in the body.

About the "arguments" above, I know that in Western Science, I have also been taught to eat about 20-30 minutes after training, as a recommendation. I suspect though this is a controlled study whereby the athelete properly warms down from his routine etc. I have also been taught that one should not eat before training as the blood concentrates on the stomach region, and hence becomes a hindrance and can cause nausea and diarhoea.

However, in the eatern thought, I am much more ignorant. Master always emphasised never to eat cold foods after training, don't drink lots "directly" after training. Also sometimes eating too soon after training can make me dizzy and disorientated.

For myself, I think El Pietro, Yen Hoi and Repulsive Monkey, I shall take the middle path on this one, and have a good drink after 20-30 minutes of training, and then a good meal about an hour after training. I will not drink anything cold after training and if possible, at all.

About how to lose weight, Aerobic exercise is great, but think adjusting your metabolism. Secondly, think muscle fibers burn fat even when sleeping.

But most of all, many people equate MEAT = WEALTH. How about following a proper food triangle and reduce meat consumption to recommended levels ?

[fmann]

Exercising activates the fight or flight system of your body where your body reallocates resources from homeostasis to systems dealing with stress (fighting, running, hypoxia, trauma, etc.), activating the sympathetic systems. The results include production of viscous (as opposed to watery) saliva, pilal erection, increased heart rate, increased sweat secretions, etc..

Regarding eating, sympathetic stimulation to the GI tract decreases GI motility; constricts sphincters, blood vessels, and some musculature; and also inhibits secretory activities (Berne and Levy, Physiology 4th ed, Section VI).

Therefore, if you eat a heavy meal right after you exercise, these effects may still be active and could lead to indigestion and cramps. That's why lifeguards tell you never to eat before you swim and swim right after you eat...

As for drinking fluids and eating lightly, that should be okay. Gatorade works great.

[ElPietro]

I don't think anyone suggested eating heavy before or after workout. Eating before workout should be light and well before...30-60 minutes before. So the quick digesting food will be giving you the fuel you need for a good workout. After you workout your body requires nutrients...again quick digesting food is best...more to get the nutrients to your cells quickest...then you can eat when you are hungry or an hour later.

[fmann]

My reply was in response to the posts below.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
If anyone has advised you to eat directly after training, then it doesn't matter what food stuff they have mentioned, they have given you bad advice. Eating directly after training just like just before can upset the Spleen and Stomach functions and lay down the foundations to poor health.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please post some evidence or sane reasoning behind this, as I've never heard of this from anyone but you.

[Kiasyd]

Well, there are a few days a week where I train at morning, with no breakfast - with empty stomach, and there are other days where I train afternoon or at night, usually after 3 or 4 hours after a light meal.

I noticed that my "performance" at the morning trainings is slightly better, I feel my body "lighter" and more responsive.

I do not know if this feeling is due to the fact that I just woke up at morning, or if it's because I didn't ate anything, but I enjoy the morning trainings much more :)

-- Kiasyd

[CD Lee]

Paul's earlier post is pretty accurate. Research has been done that shows carbohydrates ingested within 15 minutes of excersice replenish glycogen in the muscles very quickly. This is done more by performance atheletes where you are really burning up the muscle stores and energy at a high rate.

I don't think it is harmful to eat a small amount of carbohydrates shortly after excersicing. I have a very good classic Xingyi text that states not to use the bathroom or take a shower after practice. Well...I don't buy in completely on that like it was the Gospel or anything, but a shower after a workout is not harmful I don't think. Also, if ya gotta go, man, ya gotta go!

[Aramus]

Aside:
Professional level theatre and musical performers normally do not drink cold water (ice cold). This is been linked to damaging the vocal cords, causing undue stress, etc.
Just thought I would link this with Prana's statement...no cold water directly after (body hot...water cold).
Prana (I always think of a fish...maybe I'm not saying it right).

Anyone want to give some foods they eat after working out (30 or 30+ minutes after working out). I like bananas, apples, fruit in general...veggies, something light.

good luck to all.

[Repulsive Monkey]

From a Chinese medicine point of view cold water is is less preferable to warm fluids as its the equivalent of just heating up an engine in an old steam engine of a train to an optimum and then dowsing it in cold water so as to drop the temperature. One can do a lot daamge but mainly just undo the good work, so in CM the Lower Burner containing the Dan Tien is warmed up and stoked, and then suddenly someone puts it out with water.
About eating from a wetsern point of view eating alomost anything after a workout will pull away readily needed oxygenated blood from the tissues of organs that have built up Oxygen debt due to Anaerobic exercise, and send it to the Stomach to aids its fucntion of digestion. Whener the eating reflex is in incurred even through chewing gum, its starts with the Saliva being produced in the mouth, perstalsis to swallow it and the realse of Peptic acids, Renin, Hydrochloric acid and the whole gamut of Intestinal juices to go to work (except there is no food to digest). However this all needs oxygenated blood, which sis so needed elsewhere after exercise therefore, prudence and wisdom would suggest not to eat directly after exercissing. I hope this gets a better response from you ElPietro as I've bothered to use information from the other area of study that is close to my heart apart from Chinese Medicine i.e. Western Medicine!!!!

[Repulsive Monkey]

its interesting that you use the terms both Yin and Yang in reference to the macrobiotic diet system, whereas the system which quantifies Yin and Yang foods i.e. TCM says that we ought to eat meats. Eating fruits in TCM is to be restricted with some people as it is damp forming, espically bananas and oranges, however pears are one of the only damp resolving fruits. In TCM however they will mostly andvise veggie to reconsider eating meat because a fair quantity of them can suffer with blood deficiency and all the symptoms that go along with it. I do not mean to aggressive, in all this merely informational. And of course I do not preach merely state add to this debate from a particular angle.

[ElPietro]

RM thanks for replying...

Blood and circulation are primarily transport mechanisms...your body after a workout needs a heck of a lot more than just oxygen, if you are trying to maximize any type of gain from your workout. That is why i'd suggest something "quick digesting" such as a shake, or something with a high GI carb...whey protein is popular because it is quick digesting, which then allows quick transport to your cells where it is needed. Just having blood flowing around in your muscle tissue isn't very effective if you are depleted and there are no nutrients for it to bring. Why would your body be at it's peak efficiency for digestion post workout if you weren't intended to consume something...it's simple this is the time your body requires nutrients the most...so why would withold those nutrients.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Of course when I was redominantly refering to the role of oxygenated Blood I was merely just refering to the oxygen debt inccurred by anaerobic respoiration of the muscles. The build up of Lactic acid experienced by the "burn" people experience, does require mostly the need to re-oxygented the blood quickly and for it to be transported to the muscles for them to recover. Yep, you are totally correct about the transportative functions of the blood, I just should of made it clear that I was focussing on the the oxtgen debt mechanism alone.