Speed of reps, plyometrics, and their effects on muscles

[premier]

When you calisthenic workout, squats, pushups, whatever, how does the speed of the rep effect on the muscles? Does fast reps or plyometrics train the fast twitch fibres more than slow reps? Does slow reps train the slow twitches? And what if you're training with weights?


premier

[Ford Prefect]

It's all about tension, my man. When doing things "explosively" your muscles generate and release large amounts of tension in a very short time. This translates over to speed. It trains the muscle's fast twitch fibers, but it also trains the nervous system to contract the muscle harder and faster.

This can be trained with or without weights. Again tension is the key. That's why gymnasts look the way they do because of the high degree of muscle tension they experience during training...

[ElPietro]

I agree with Ford, and will offer only a bit more info. Basically, as discussed before there are many forms of training and strength. Changing the speed of your rep can alter what you are doing. For example if you are doing speed bench, or speed squats you will be trying to do them as fast as possible, which means when you work explosively you will probably half to use much less weight. This is more functional strength training, which is very beneficial in most sports or martial arts. Just having a big bench isn't as effective if you aren't training to translate that strength into appropriate action. This is more important on movements that are related to the sport you are training for.

[Ford Prefect]

And to add a bit to EP's post, many powerlifters will use 50-60% their 1RM for low-rep explosive sets to get stronger and faster. One gym who lives by this training has guys that bench 730+ and squat 1,000+. ;)

[IronFist]

Good question, premier. I was wondering about that myself.

Hey, when doing things like 50% 1RM explosive sets, where in a training cycle should they go? In the beginning? At the end of a cycle? In the middle? eh?

Iron

[ElPietro]

Speed days should preceed max effort days. This is a rule of thumb in westside training. I have started to delve into this but haven't done enough consulting/research to have an exact answer on all of this.

I'm toying with a really complicated training program right now geared for someone who wants to train in martial arts and has goals of strength first then endurance and hypertrophy secondary. I will put a lot of research into it and it will be a integration of conjugate and short periodization phases based mainly on compound movements with minor focus on assisting musclegroups. Right now it is a 15 day split with 5 phases, but it's in it's infancy right now although from those who have looked at it they've been pretty impressed.

As I get time to study more I'll post more here. Or please anyone else post what they have here too.

[ElPietro]

Oh I believe that the tried, tested, and true periodization method would be:

1) Endurance
2) Power (speed sets)
3) Strength
4) Hypertrophy

Just to post the full cycle instead of just power/strength. Again I do not have a lot of reasoning for this and will be investigating and welcome any comments.

[prana]

Fast twitch and slow twitch

You cannot isolate training fast twitch and slow twitch fibers as such. They work together.

Does fast reps or plyometrics train the fast twitch fibres more than slow reps? Does slow reps train the slow twitches?
When you train explosive power, you will actually transform your slow twitch to become fast twitch. Slow twitch and fast twitch muscles do not have a finite line. But generally men have more natural fast twitch that women, but hey thats where their endurance comes from.

Remember training is specific to angles. People usually train explosive power but forget the length of the muscles that are being trained. So if you for example keen on a training such as clapping push ups, you might find that the angles which you gain extreme power is limited to movement specific to the length during that training. Here is an experiment. If you put yourself on two lifted platforms, and do push ups so tat your pecs are VERY stretched, you will find that your power is EXTREMELY weak, but you are training the extremities of your muscles lengths. Most people need to train at extremities of muscle length... IMO




1) Endurance,
2) Power (speed sets)
3) Strength
4) Hypertrophy

We train similar to this but the order is quite different. We train

1) Endurance (actually we call it injury prevention, or cappilarity), it also helps retune motor neurons to do a particular exercise...
2) Power Endurance (because this ability lasts longer than power
3) Maximum Power (Plyometrics)
4) Peak (Competition time !!!)
5) Rest (Complete rest !)
6) Hyperthrophy
Back to 1.

Quite similar really, dont you think ?

Cheers

[Ford Prefect]

Iron,

EP is think of the same people I am: Westside Barbell Club.

I'm not exactly sure where to just throw in the speed day in a random routine, as I used the periodization model. BTW, my 1RM strength absolutely lifted off when I used their training. This is the basic formula:

Monday Max Effort Lower Body Day

Exrecise 1: Max Effort Exrecise (5-8 sets of 3-1 reps of goodmorning variations 70%, box squat 20%, deadlift variations 10%)

Exercise 2: Supplemental Exercise (6-8 sets of 8-12 reps of reverse hyperextensions, glute/ham raises, or pull throughs)

Exercise 3,4, etc: Accessory Work (3-6 sets of 8-12 reps ABS - Pull-down abs & hanging leg raises HAMS - Romanian & Dimmel Dl's Back work today as well)

Wednesday Max Effort Bench Day

Exercise 1: Max Effort Exercise (5-8 sets of 3-1 reps of floor press, board press, close grip incline press)

Exercise 2: Supplemental Exercise (6-8 sets of 8-10 reps of skull crushers, floor tricep extensions, jm press, etc)

Exercise 3, 4, 5: Acessory Work (Rows, Pull-ups, Rotator Cuff work, upper back work - 3-6 sets of 8-12 reps)

Friday Dynamic Effort Lowerbody

Exercise 1: Explosive Box Squat (50-60% 1RM for 8 sets of 2 - only rest 30-45 seconds between sets)

Exercise 2: Supplementary ...

Exercise 3: Accessory...

Sunday Dynamic Effort Bench day

Exercise 1: Explosive Bench Press (50-60% 1RM for 8 of 3 reps - same rest as fri)

Exercise 2: Close-grip Pin Press 5-7 sets of 3-1 reps

Exercise 3: Accessory...

------------
All rest should only be 1-2.5 minutes excluding dynamic exercises

Do this is 8 week cycles. This scheme was developed to train strength, hypertrophy, and speed together.

[Braden]

Prem - doing it fast doesn't make it plyometric. I've had the best results doing non-plyometrics very slow, and of course having proper CV and plyometric work on the side.

[ElPietro]

Prana generally speaking the amount of fast and slow twitch muscles you have are finite. You cannot increase the number that you have. There is very little evidence right now to suggest that you can actually convert slow twitch (Type I) fibres to fast twitch (Type II) fibres. Generally the size of the fibre will increase, so if you are born with say a 60/40 split of fast/slow, you will still have 60/40 but mass-wise it may be 75/25 if you train in such a way. There are some 'theories' that explosive power training may lead to conversion though, so it's possible but not widely accepted. You can convert Type IIa to Type IIb fibres though. Type IIa fast twitch are more oxidative whereas Type IIb fast twitch are anaerobic and are superior for hypertrophy and strength. These fibres are better stimulated through the use of negative reps.

You are pretty much right in that you can't isolate the different fibres, but in general when you perform a lift your body uses slow twitch first and as the load signals the nervous system more recruitment is generated which then involves the fast twitch muscles. When you work the fast twitch muscles they grow, but slow twitch do not generally grow at all. Hence you see weak, skinny marathon runners, as their training is not at an intensity to stress the body into using type II fibres which are responsible for hypertrophy.

[Braden]

What EP said.

[IronFist]

Ford and ElPeitro, how would you guys compare Westside Barbell club's method's effectiveness with Pavel's PTP effectiveness? THat's what I"m currently doing.

Iron

[ElPietro]

Does Pavel's have a hypertrophy phase? I see so many programs I get them mixed up sometimes. If I remember Pavel's MA programs it's more low rep high weight, which is ONE aspect of westside. The high weight will not get you much added muscle mass but will increase strength significantly. I know 150lbers that are deadlifting almost 500lbs. This limits DOMS which will allow you to train maximally in your art. Speed sets are generally high number of sets with low reps and little rest. So for example doing speed bench could be 9 sets of 3 reps with 30 seconds rest, or 10 of 2 for speed squats etc.

One other aspect is the focus on the big three. So the entire philosophy of Westside training is focused on increasing strength in the bench, deadlift and squat. This is probably more due to competion but these three exercises will target virtually every single muscle in your body anyway. Some assisters are done sub-maximally, generally body parts that are limiting your big 3 lifts. So if your lower back fails on deadlifts assistance work would be performed doing back hypers etc. So they pay special attention to where they fail in the movement on max effort days to determine where their weak point is. As a result they turn into very strong mofos. I have some friends on another board that just started a competition to see who can lift 3x their bodyweight in deadlifts first.

[Ford Prefect]

IronFist,

It's all in what you're looking for. I love PTP because it takes so little time, and best of all, it works! It also works fine in 2 week splits w/kettlebells or some other strength endurance program like Combat Conditioning.

Westside has taken periodization and powerlifting to a whole new level. You can gain mass, speed, and raw strength all at the same time. I gained near 30 lbs (25 lbs now that I've leaned out again) on their program and made incredible gains in strength. The only draw back being that the cycles last 8 weeks which leaves little time to focus on strength endurance without losing the benefits gained from weights. Me, being a big believer in developing well rounded strength, only do one west side cycle/year now.

If you want to spend as little time as possible in the gym, don't want to bulk up at all, and also want time to work on strength endurance, then PTP is the way to go.

If you are looking to fully maximise your max strength potential and gain some weight in the process, then give Westside a try.