sleeper hold/naked choke challenge

[TenTigers]

I'm not sure of the technical term for this hold, but it is a choke that is applied by locking your right (for discription sake) arm around opponent's neck, forearm and bicep choking off blood to brain, crook of arm closing windpipe, right arm is locked onto your left bicep, and your left hand cupping his head to immobilize. When applied, it will usually put out the opponent in short time, legs buckling in about 4-6 seconds and he taps out, or it's goodnite. I'm sure you're all familiar with this.
Question: How do you escape from it? Obviously first you must "soften him up" with heel stomps, etc, but then what?
You can take the pain of elbows to the ribs, or groin shots knowing that he'll be out in 5, you can turn your head to avoid eye strikes, the throat is vulnerable to inverted "crab claw" to soft tissue and trachea, but it is not a sure bet. Shoulder throw is out of the question-try this at home for lots of fun! You are dead meat if you are taken back on your heels, or if on your back with his legs locked on you. I know that any hold, once "finalized" is pretty much a done deal, but this is a common yet dangerous technique and I am looking for all and any methods to counter it.

[norther practitioner]

Not saying that this is the best way, and it only could work under a few situations, but if the situation was from a standing position, then I have seen someone do some stomping, then drop all their weight down and reach for the chokers leg/foot from in between theirs, pull up, and squat. Of course this is one of those when the situation has to be just right but hey, if it can work, why not have it in your repituor.

[Badger]

To start with get your hand or fingers between you & the choke.
After that there are a number of reversals or attacks you can do.





Badger

[Archangel]

If your adversary has this on clean, it is a very difficult situation to get out of. It's true you have about 5 seconds at most until you go out, but you have only 1 or 2 before you start to panick and just flail. The first thing you have to do is give yourself more time, reach up with both hands and try to cause seperation between his arm and your throat. If you do get enough seperation to breath try to turn your head so he doesn't have the choke clean on your adams apple. Once you've created a small pocket, then you can go to the eyes or the nuts.

[Ryu]

If the choke is fully in, and the person knows what he's doing, there's no way out. ;)
Not without sheer luck or brute strength, but even then it's pretty hopeless.

Yes you can put your hand between the choke and your neck, tuck your chin, and do any type of escape technique, but if it's a good choke, and it's all the way in...it's too late.
It would be like asking to block a punch when it's hitting you in the face already.

Ryu

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

ryu . .. my sifu said the same thing.

there are lots of ways out if they don't set it in clean or if you feel it coming and manage to "block" it with your chin, hand, whatever, but once it's in you're fu cked 9 times out of 10.

[shaolinboxer]

Interesting analogy, ryu.

Can we extend this analogy to say that, much like there are better ways to take a punch that can save you from damage even though your are getting hit, there is a better way to "take" a choke?

Also, is it realistic to try to apply a hip throw to a guy who has you in a standing choke? I have done this technique, but never when someone was really trying to render me unconcious I don;t think.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

definately not with that choke. i'm no grappler but at best it seems like you'd land on your face with him on top of you still choking your ass out.

[Archangel]

A good grappler will be pulling you backwards, to keep you on your heels and off balance; it would be very difficult to get a good base in this position. IMO a throw would not be pragmatic.

[shenwu disciple]

Originally posted by TenTigers

Question: How do you escape from it? Obviously first you must "soften him up" with heel stomps, etc, but then what?


Soften him up w/heel stomps. lol :D. That's the funniest thing I've heard all day! Like everyone else is saying, you're pretty much screwed once the choke is applied. I agree w/everyone else, if you know the guy is going for the choke, standing or on the ground, you might want to tuck your chin and start turning towards your opponent.

[LEGEND]

After grappling forawhile it's relatively difficult for them to get u into a guillotine type choke...just relax and try to dig your hands in...if he arches then hold on cause he may tire...after he tires he'll get frustrated and u can try a body slam tactic...ralph gracie shows it in his video...just make sure the choke is not sunk in...experience will teach u this.

[Brad Souders]

Reach up and grab the wrist to releive pressure. Then step you leg behind his bending yourself over. This will place you in a sidelock but will force the oppenent to lose leverage therefore relieving the choke. Now that your there wrap your arms around his waist straighten the leg behind him and sit back toward that leg taking him down. From there i like to place a knee into his side and use a crossface to break his grip. From there i throw my other leg over his face for a straight armbar.

[red5angel]

your hands are free correct? What is to stop you from reaching back and grabbing a hand full of his goodies and giving a good squeeze?

[Ryu]

Are you guys talking about standing chokes or on the ground??? Standing chokes give you much more movement IMO. It's when you're being grapevined from behind with the mata leao that you've got problems ;)
I speak from experience.

I would say there are better ways to take a "choke" but it is all due to awareness of what's coming, reacting before the choke is properly applied, etc.
Now not everyone knows how to choke. So it would be much easier to escape from Joe Blow's street choke then say Royce Gracie's.

Ryu

[ShaolinTiger00]

as you can see choking tiger, there are really two situations with the mata leao. Normal ryu is right about the rear naked choke on the ground, if he has his hooks (feet) in you're fubar.

Here's my advice for a standind defense.

you've got to act fast. this choke doesn't give you much time, so the quicker you are able to sense this arm go over your head, the better for you.

as he is wrapping the choke around your neck grab it with both hands. One hand on his wrist, the other on his inner elbow (his arm will be inside yours so you will be kind of making a curl movement, similar to lifting weights.) try to bring his forearm parallel to the ground so that his elbow isn't pointing down but out to the side (you'll be pulling down) Now bend your knees and get your hips lower than his. quickly lower your upper body like you were bowing but make it very fast and powerful. you can lift him right over your back where he will fall and you will still have control of his arm. Remember this has to go quickly!! so practicing this alot may be the key.

just something that works for me.

[Badger]

There is one sure-fire way to escape any choke or lock: Tap on your opponent. Your opponent will almost instantly release you.

Just check out my 6-tape set from Panther.
"Tap-Fu the art of beating grappling" for only $199.99.
Also check out Tapping in Action I & II to see Tap-Fu stylist escape some of the best grappling holds. At $79.99 It's a steal.



Badger

[Knifefighter]

There are many ways to escape the rear choke. An experienced grappler usually can feel it coming and will start defensive measures against it before it is locked in. There are a whole host of things someone must do to overcome a good defense to finally be able to lock the choke in (and there are also a variety of techs that have been developed to overcome each of these defenses). ST's description is a good first measure if you are standing. Sometimes you can't get the opt up and over and he will start to pull you back in, which is where you would use the defense that Brad described.

There are still couple of things that can be used even after the choke is locked in, whether the hooks are in or not. One final thing you can do (this is usually your last ditch effort after your other defenses have failed) is to use both hands to grab the wrist of the hand that is behind your head. Once you have the wrist you can sometimes pry the hand from there and straighten the opts arm over your shoulder and finish him with an elbow hyperextension before he finishes you with the choke.

As far as using your hands to reach back and grab the vitals, it is extremely hard to do as the opt is usually either pressed up against you, has his hooks in, or has pulled you down with his body away from yours. Additionally, by using your hands to attack, you have taken away your main defense that helps to extend the time before you are finished by the choke.

[Brad Souders]

When they have your back their are two diiferent types of hooks ( the way people control you with their legs)

Mostly the new submission guys or someone who hasn't had this counter done will do this. They will cross the legs around you (almost like a reverse guard) now the easy counter for you now is to first reach up grab their wrist pull down and tuck your chin. Get a feel for which foot is on top while they are scissoring you. Then simply place your opposite leg over that foot trapping it. Now straight your legs out and lift your hips. The pressure from the down motion of your legs and their foot underneath will create a ankle lock with your legs.

Now if they grapevine in it gets tricky. Fisrt do as before but only reach up and protect with one hand. the other take down and grab their foot and pull the hook off and force it to the ground while stepping the leg over trapping that hook. Now shrimp over the inside tigh of the leg with the hook still in cause now your free lg can push you over. After its all said and done you'll end up in a side headlock But you will have crossbody. ( sounds like it won't work but i've used hundreds of times just give it a shot)

[Tigerstyle]

LOL! I've seen Badger's technique release even the tightest chokes!

"your hands are free correct? What is to stop you from reaching back and grabbing a hand full of his goodies and giving a good squeeze?"

You could, but the question then is, will it release the choke? Like many people have mentioned here, the effect happens in seconds. The grab/squeeze is definitely painful :eek: and could probably cause some good damage, but that likely will not automatically cause someone to loosen their grip.

What if you were being choked out by a woman?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Don't ever cross your ankles in the hook position!! the guy just has to put his leg across them and make an "empty" triangle and you'll SCREAM with pain. at least I did, but it'll never happen again. :D

everyone has provided great info.

here's another one but in my opinion is harder.

assuming he's using his right arm to choke you. squeeze your left arm under his and take your right and hold it vertical against his tricep. after you get your left under grab your right wrist (basically making a standing keylock or americana) now step back with your right leg and torqe this *******'s arm till his shoulder pops.

looking up now I see Brad has experienced this as well.

I also gotta agree with KF about the vitals and trying to grab the fingers. these can be pretty limited attempts when seconds matter. anything can happen! I'm sure they've worked for someone.

[Merryprankster]

To get out of a STANDING rear naked, and here we'll assume it's all tucked in.

First, I've seen the one Brad Souders was talking about. It DOES work. You need to ensure, however, that the leg that steps behind is tight against the opponent's leg/knee, or else they have room to maneuver. Shut that space down and be sure to bend them backwards over that leg!!!

The name of the game is "buying time." Without that, you're toast.

Some finer points.

Remain calm.--single biggest factor to you blacking out quickly... you might buy yourself a whole second.

Shrug your shoulders up, tuck your chin down. You'll be surprised at how much time this buys you... maybe a whole second.
Your hands need to go to the wrist of the arm that is actively choking you. Pull down. Hard. Much like Brad suggested. This might by you another second.

There are two ways to approach the next bit. I've used both.

Pull hard. At the hint of space, turn your head so that your chin points towards their wrist. Keep your shoulders up and chin down though. The more the choke is applied with your head and neck to the side, the less effect it has. As soon as you can, get your chin and jawline down to/between their forearm and your neck. This will take a great deal of the pressure off the neck. You might get a bloody lip and your jaw might hurt, but so what. Once here, keep everything tight so he can't regrip. You might not like where you are at, but it beats blacking out. Simply work out from here. Eventually, the person is going to get tired or regrip when they realize that you aren't going down. By having both hands on their wrist, you are ready to take advantage of that--you can move their arm when they try to regrip. Just keep those shoulders up and the chin tucked--you can also execute Brad's takedown from there.

For the other one:

Keep the near hand on the wrist and pull down. Continue doing what was listed above, but while that is going on, with the far hand, reach up to the hand controlling your head, and squeeze their hand together down where the knuckles all run in a row--NOT at the fingers... that won't do anything. You should try to get your four fingers hooked at the meaty bit below the first knuckle of the thumb. **** your wrist back and pull their thumb up...you're trying to twist their hand to relieve the grip. Now, as you push that hand off, you should have created some space. Take advantage of that as above.

[Merryprankster]

haha!!!

It edited Co(k

[Brad Souders]

Merry you sir are my hero ;)

[Knifefighter]

MP- Nice variation on removing the hand from the head. I use something like that when extending the arm out for an arm bar.

As far as the hooks, there's actually a third way of "putting in the hooks", a triangle over the stomach. It's a killer and really, really hard to escape.

[Merryprankster]

Knife,

When you take the hand off that way, you can push down for a wrist lock. It won't tap them, but they tend to squirm.

Also, for serious self defense, when you are trying to take that hand off, once it IS off the head, try snapping some fingers...

Brad, I've never been somebody's hero before. What should I wear? :D

[Stacey]

hahaha, inverted crab hands?

I don't think so. They have control of your center. A knee to the back will get you arched and backwards. This choke is my specialty, I have been choked by it over 100 times. I know it inside and out, all the little intricacies to get more blood to the brain etc.

The throw is ok, but if they are smart, the choker will sink with you. Best is to go into the choke and grab some fingers to weaken the hold. If they are standing, step behind to single whip. (its in aikido a lot) You can also get the arm strait and lever it , or get to the ground, and turn to face them.

Lots of fun stuff.

[Ryu]

MerryPrankster, that has to be one of the best posts I've ever read on the choke. Awesome awesome post. Can you be my hero too? ;)

Ryu

[Merryprankster]

Thanks Ryu, and Brad.

Also, of course, you're going to be doing generally the same thing if they have their hooks in. Choke first, hooks second. Hooks don't make you black out :)

[Nichiren]

ShaolinTiger00: I agree with you. If he has his hooks in you are FUBAR.

The only thing to hope for is that the guy isn't experienced and crosses his feet when applying the hooks... ;)

[ShaolinTiger00]

I learned a new one last night @ class.

(consider he has deep choke)

pull down arm using two handed brag to relieve pressure and turn into arm (you'll be facing his bicep) step out and hook your leg behind his but still keeping grip on his arm. keep turning till you are looking180 degrees from beginning and sweep your leg back tripping him.

my description doesn't do it justice but it worked very well considering I was on both ends and sunk in the choke very deeply.

[JWTAYLOR]

Sh!te man, thems were some good posts. I grabbed my little sister and put the sleeper on her and she was able to pull a couple of those off fairly well.

So now that all of you are here in one place, what do you do about the sleeper where one arm is up? In American Kenpo, this is one we use allot, and several people in our class (me included) use it successfully in sparring.

Let's just say, one way or another, I get one of your arms up (let's go with the right one) and I place my right arm under it and across your neck. I reach over with my left behind your neck and grab my right wrist and pull you in close, collapsing my right elbow. My body is to the back and to the right of you.

(BTW, I usually go right to a sweep from there, but some people don't, and I sure as hell get stuck with it every once in a while.) Oh, and this is one of the VERY few techniques I've used in a real fight.

JWT

[Nichiren]

JWT: Do you mean the kata gatame? Look at the link: http://judoinfo.com/images/osaekomi/kata_gatame.gif

The kata gatami is very hard to counter. If the person doing it knows what he is doing then you have big problems (like in this picture; he has turned you to the side and uses his knee to make it hard for you to turn into him). The main thing to think about is always to turn into the technique that pinns/strangle you. In this case there are a couple of techniques to try. One is to push him down using feet and hands and grab the clothes on his back with the pinned arm or try to pass it in front of him. You will still be in a bad situation so be prepared to counter him.

If a person gets a kata gatami on me standing I would try to get to the ground as soon as possible. There are just to many ways he can be nasty to me when standing... ;)

[ShaolinTiger00]

http://judoinfo.com/quiz0297_5.htm


(in a Homer Simpson voice) Judo has the answer to everything.. and if that doesn't work, try lots of beer.

[JWTAYLOR]

Close, but what I'm talking about the arm in around the throat, not behind the neck. You should be grabbing your own wrist.

JWT

[Merryprankster]

JWT--let me make sure I understand this correctly--

You have one arm across the neck.

You have the other arm doing a chicken wing on the near side arm, and you are working your hand to the near side shoulder so that the hands can be connected. Yes?

[JWTAYLOR]

Kata Game as posted by Nichiren is pretty much it, but stand up first. I like to get in on standing up and slam them down into what Nichiren posted.

Either that one or just like a rear naked but intead of both arms over their shoulders one of your arms is under one of their arms. Your other arm is over their FAR shoulder.

JWT

[Merryprankster]

Ah, gotcha.

[Merryprankster]

Wait... I think I mostly gotcha

JWT,

Ok, if it's like the one in the picture, then the one arm is over the neck, and the other is in a "half-nelson," type of position under the near arm, correct?

I know how to do this choke with a collar, but I'm working on the assumption that you are talking "no-gi," here.

[JWTAYLOR]

Bingo.
JWT

[Tigerstyle]

I think you're looking at the wrong picture, MP. Your description sounds like the image ShaolinTiger posted. I think JWT is referring to Nichiren's link.

"Either that one or just like a rear naked but intead of both arms over their shoulders one of your arms is under one of their arms. Your other arm is over their FAR shoulder."

You mean like a triangle choke using your arms?

"...as posted by Nichiren is pretty much it, but stand up first. I like to get in on standing up and slam them down..."
The Rock Bottom ™ ;)

[Merryprankster]

JWT,

I'm not sure there's a really solid choke here. Restraint, absolutely... but a choke... hmmm..well, regardless...

Ok. The arm that is NOT being half-nelsoned needs to go to the choke (his wrist or hand), ensuring room to breathe. Unless the person is an evil brute of a powerhouse, you should be able to do this. Tuck your chin as always and try to get your face in the choke instead of your neck. I really don't think it will be a problem with this particular hold, because, by it's nature, it can't be held as tightly for as long as the rear naked. At least, I certainly couldn't, I know that for certain.

The half-nelson is currently what is holding you "in place," so to speak. You need to attend to that next, once you've ensured you aren't going to pass out.

The half nelson defense is the simplest thing in all the world.

Take your near arm, and pinch your elbow in tightly to your side. Clamp down hard on the half-nelson.

Now, maintaining that pressure, reach back and grab his near side hand. Even if it is grabbing his other hand, it shouldn't be a problem. Place your hand ninety degrees to his. Put your four fingers under the meaty part of his palm where the thumb comes out of, if you can. If not, squeeze his four fingers together so that you break his grip.

Now, scrunch your shoulders up MORE, if you can.

Look DOWN AND AWAY with your head, while you peel the grip off. If you have the "thumb grip," then turn his hand away from your head as you peel. If you have the fingers grip, just peel.

Maintain control of his hand.

Hip heist, a bit to create some space, control the hands and then turn under and to the inside, out of the choke, sort of facing him. You will likely be on his side.

Since you have his hands controlled, you should be able to move right into a clinch or whatever other sort of inside technique you prefer.

[Merryprankster]

JWT, if the escape doesn't seem to apply, lemme know and we'll work on figuring out what we're talking about :)

[Merryprankster]

ttt for JWT

[JWTAYLOR]

I'm going to find some pictures of what I'm talking about and post it here. It is VERY much a choke. Imagine a rear nake but the arm that goes across his throat is under his arm and across his throat, the rest is pretty similar.

I'll grab someone from the office, beat them up, and post some photos tomorrow.

JWT

[Merryprankster]

Then Tiger is right---it sounds like an arm triangle variation--

I'll look forward to seeing the pictures though :)

[Tigerstyle]

We can never have too many "pummeled office worker" photos around here. :)

[Nichiren]

The kata gatami is a type of triangle choke. It applies pressure to the carotid ateries. It may be applied standing.

I use it sometimes by dropping my left guard-hand slightly to get the opponent to launch a right cross. I then pak-sau the cross with my left hand and simulataneously step in and sinks the kata gatami. Because I'm a nice person I gently put the guy to the floor and finishes him. If it would be a real situation I would look for a sharp corner or a stone and body slam him on it... :p