Sleeper Hold/ Naked Choke Challenge

[TenTigers]

I'm not sure of the technical term for this hold, but it is a choke that is applied by locking your right (for discription sake) arm around opponent's neck, forearm and bicep choking off blood to brain, crook of arm closing windpipe, right arm is locked onto your left bicep, and your left hand cupping his head to immobilize. When applied, it will usually put out the opponent in short time, legs buckling in about 4-6 seconds and he taps out, or it's goodnite. I'm sure you're all familiar with this.
Question: How do you escape from it? Obviously first you must "soften him up" with heel stomps, etc, but then what?
You can take the pain of elbows to the ribs, or groin shots knowing that he'll be out in 5, you can turn your head to avoid eye strikes, the throat is vulnerable to inverted "crab claw" to soft tissue and trachea, but it is not a sure bet. Shoulder throw is out of the question-try this at home for lots of fun! You are dead meat if you are taken back on your heels, or if on your back with his legs locked on you. I know that any hold, once "finalized" is pretty much a done deal, but this is a common yet dangerous technique and I am looking for all and any methods to counter it.

[wiz cool c]

Step one tuck your chin. step two release pressure by putting your right hand in the crease of opponent's right elbow and peeling it down. This just gives your neck a little room to breath. Then heel stomp, groin strike, low back elbow strike.

[Tigerdragon]

Then you can go for the eyes. I have not seen anyone who can turn and stretch their head far enough away to get beyond the reach of both hands. I don't think I would even bother trying to pull his arm down. Unless the lock he has is half a$$ed and weak. If the person have a strong lock on, your not moving that arm far enough to prevent a KO. If he has that hold on, correct, solid and tight, your out in 12 seconds or less. You also can't count on using anything with power because you begin to loose strength almost immediately. I still think the best bet would be the eyes.

Just my thoughts

[Kevin73]

As wiz cool c said those are the initial steps to buy you more time. But, it also depends on how your opponent is standing and what he is doing.

Is he standing with his legs apart and his crotch open? Or he is angled with one leg forward to protect his groin? Is he trying to lift you to help with the choke?

If he has his leg in between your to protect for a groin strike and is trying to lift back on the choke. Hook your closest leg behind his (this is after you have tucked your chin into his elbow and pulled down with your hands) and when you start to turn to the side plant your foot and step through while holding his arm. This will defeat the choke and then you point your shoulder towards the ground and take him down.

[remo]

TenTigers,

The choke you describe (with the left hand on the back of the head and not yet locked on) can possibly be gotten out of if you do as Wiz says and tuck your chin to the crook of your attackers right elbow, then find the left elbow, run the forearm to the hand and go to work on the fingers and wrist. All the while fighting like "heck", as others have already said, time is of the essence, and you'll black out within seconds.

All of the above has to be done before your attacker "locks" the choke on. Once the lock is put on, all your attacker has to do is tuck his/her head down and hang on; provided your larnyx isn't crushed, you'll ONLY be knocked out. :D

I'd suggest something we do when practicing this defense: have your partner slip up behind you and attempt to place the choke, slowly at first, then later with speed. Try different defenses and find one that will work for you. Then try it with another partner from different positions and test your defense out. If it's not up to snuff, go back to the mat. I'd like to say there's a one and only defense, but life's not so simple. :(

Good luck. ;)

[wiz cool c]

forgot one thing.Grab a finger.Tuck chin release pressure,heel stomp grion strike,low back elbo then grab a finger. That eye thing wont work it is very easy to defend.And the first thing you learn about defending against a choke is defend first before you start to counter it. This goes for locks to.

[MA fanatic]

Dude, why not sign up at some decent grappling school and see for yourself. All depends on who is choking you out. So many of these rinky dink tricks have been tried against competent BJJ, or submission grapplers, all have failed. Trust me, I have been grappling for a few years now and have a background in Kung Fu as well as Hapkido, before you get around to pocking him in the eye or pulling off any fingers, you're out. Every second he has the choke on you, you get weaker. Plus, your natural response is to grab his arms so you could breath. Anything else just wont work. Most self defense against choking is taught in martial arts schools where your fellow student is NOT really attempting to choke you. So, people practice in a vacume, thinking they know how to react. They don't. If you want to learn escapes from that position, attend a grapplign school for a few months and trully grapple with people who specialize in joint manipulations, choking and strangulations. You'll learn what works and what doesn't through trial and error.

MA fanatic

[MonkeyBoy]

Rik,

I believe it's called a handlock. Supposedly it can't be broken but I don't buy that.

If you have a student to practice on, try grabbing a finger, drop to one knee and fling the guy over your shoulder. Have fun experimenting.

Peace

[JerryLove]

It's called a "rear naked choke" (at leas in the NHB / wrestling / BJJ circles). The position of the trachia in the elbow and the closing of the wind-pipe are really secondary to cahging the apparent pressure to the brain. That is to say, a focus on where your elbow goes gives you proper leverage to impede blood-flow in the Jugular and Corodid, and the pressure there makes people focus on the "chokeing" aspect.

Before the lock is applied, it's reasonably simple to get out of. Afterward (like most things) will depend on relative skills and position.

The simplist and most obvious (and this works well on people who apply the choke improperly, as most people not trained speifically at using it do) is to go for the sensitive parts of the body (the eyes and face or the feet, shins, and groin). Of course, if he sat down to apply it, all he needs to protect is his face.

Grappling arts will often talk about deconstructing the hold (though most emphasis is on preventing it from cinching properly in the first place) and I will leave it to members of such arts to describe such procedures in detail.

I've seen one internal practitioner just peel off the guy who put him in the hold. I'm still not sure how that functions, but the person doing the hold was compitent in it, was from another school (IOW was not cooperative)(he was asking about our art's defense to it, he was from a grappling school). I'd love to learn that trick :)

The first, best defence is to prevent the hold from being cinched down (start by not giving up your back). The danger of this hold is it's speed (once it's down, you've got 5-10 seconds to at-least disrupt it). And of-course, this will often be applied sitting or (worse) from a back-mount. I think I need to get down to the local BJJ school and find out if they have a solution for that last option, cause I don't.

[Dark Knight]

If he has the choke on right you will not be able to get to the eyes or other sensitive areas fast enough. Learn to react to it aas he is putting you into it.

If he is standing and chokeing you can get out of it, common sense will help you here, groin shots , rolloing, throws.... If you are on the ground and he has his hooks in, bad news. Buy some grappling tapes and have fun.

MA Fanatic, you take the fun out of these post.

[Merryprankster]

I'm with MA Fanatic on this one.

Step 1: Go find a competant grappler.
Step 2: Train the defense.

Step 3: Don't try the handlock--grab a finger and go? Please. My girlfriend just passed her blue belt test. The last 10 minutes of her 30 minute sparring, she fought with a broken finger. Hardly debilitating... and you aren't going to THROW anybody with a "finger hold."

Step 4: Screw vital area strikes until you can breathe. If I don't let go (and I won't) you're all kinds of ****ed.

[Merryprankster]

Here's an example from the same thread on the main forum.

For what it's worth:

The name of the game is "buying time." Without that, you're toast.

Some finer points.

Remain calm.--single biggest factor to you blacking out quickly... you might buy yourself a whole second.

Shrug your shoulders up, tuck your chin down. You'll be surprised at how much time this buys you... maybe a whole second.
Your hands need to go to the wrist of the arm that is actively choking you. Pull down. Hard. Much like Brad suggested. This might by you another second.

There are two ways to approach the next bit. I've used both.

Pull hard. At the hint of space, turn your head so that your chin points towards their wrist. Keep your shoulders up and chin down though. The more the choke is applied with your head and neck to the side, the less effect it has. As soon as you can, get your chin and jawline down to/between their forearm and your neck. This will take a great deal of the pressure off the neck. You might get a bloody lip and your jaw might hurt, but so what. Once here, keep everything tight so he can't regrip. You might not like where you are at, but it beats blacking out. Simply work out from here. Eventually, the person is going to get tired or regrip when they realize that you aren't going down. By having both hands on their wrist, you are ready to take advantage of that--you can move their arm when they try to regrip. Just keep those shoulders up and the chin tucked--you can also execute Brad's takedown from there.

For the other one:

Keep the near hand on the wrist and pull down. Continue doing what was listed above, but while that is going on, with the far hand, reach up to the hand controlling your head, and squeeze their hand together down where the knuckles all run in a row--NOT at the fingers... that won't do anything. You should try to get your four fingers hooked at the meaty bit below the first knuckle of the thumb. **** your wrist back and pull their thumb up...you're trying to twist their hand to relieve the grip. Now, as you push that hand off, you should have created some space. Take advantage of that as above.

[wolfkiller]

a choke? , that sounds like a choke and a strangle hold at the same time. can't you just keep elbowing him?

[Merryprankster]

It's not. Trust me. The point of the elbow should be underneath the windpipe. This cuts off the circulation, but doesn't do much to the air supply.

And "can't you just keep elbowing him?" No. What if he doesn't let go? Plus, it's not like you have the space to anyway--he's going to be glued to you. And if you decide to waste time trying to create the space to elbow and he keeps following you around--NIGHTY-NIGHT!

[Water Dragon]

Merry,
Have you ever played with trying to set up a shoulder throw from here? I haven't, but it seem like it could work if you can maneuver their arms a bit. Thoughts?

[Merryprankster]

In a word, yes.

Once you are no longer in danger of being choked, you need to get one of the arms off your head and secure it before you try this though--ippon-seio-nage/flying mare would be the obvious choices. I suck at throws, so once I hip bump, (to make the guy THINK I'm gonna throw) I'd probably keep wrist control and turn in for a duck under.

[Water Dragon]

OK, makes sense. I keep running the scenario in my head and see it worjing beautifully. Ant then I see the guy hanging on to my neck through out the throw. Big Owwie for both of us.

How do you break the hold> I really am ot concerned about the active choking arm once I make space (which will set up the throw) It;s the arm that's clinching the back of my head that worries me. Any ideas?

[Merryprankster]

Read the earlier post :)

Ok--that's like saying the answer is in the forms.

I'm assuming that you can "defend the choke,"

So, if you want hand control, squeeze the fingers of the hand on top of your head together and peel it off, while looking down and away from that hand (you should already be doing this as choke defense anyway) :) Try to keep his hand out and away from your head. (obviously) The less he can bend that arm, the harder it will be for him to hold on to it with his choke arm.

Once it's off, you need to use the space you have created to tuck your chin deeper to keep the choke from getting back in tight. Try to use your head to help break the hold of his choking arm that would be in the crook of his other arm--if it's loose, he won't be able to hold on to your head as you throw.

[Water Dragon]

*CLICK* (sound of lightbulb going off in my head)

Yes!!! Thanks

[Merryprankster]

Good luck!

I've had miserable success with this--but as I said, I'm not a thrower :)

Last Night, I was rolling with Rhadi, and he managed to, while I had his back, THROW ME as hard as if we were standing... my feet went to the ceiling. Now in fairness, I was riding too high, but to consider that he ippon-seio-naged me from his knees without the drop-- Oh my.

It should be illegal for a man that large to be that fast...

[wolfkiller]

if it cuts off the blood flow but not the air supply, would it not be a strangle then? so why do they keep calling it a choke?

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, technically most BJJ "chokes" are actually strangles. I think most people associate making someone pass out by manipulating the neck as a choke no matter what is technically happening. Kind of the same way most people think the 5 elements are all "fists".

[Water Dragon]

MerryPranksterm It works. And it works well. Turns out that I didn't need to worry about the other hand at all. When you begin the throw set up, the choking arm tends to fall in the position for a more or less "classic" shoulder throw.

[MA fanatic]

I've roled with some good bjj guys, shooto guys, judoka, and a couple pancration practitioners. Seems like if a guy who knows what he's doing sinks in the choke, its lights out. There are a few things you can do, but 95% of the time you're just buying time. The secret is not to get caught in the rear naked choke to begin with. If you don't come from a grappling background, you just have to try grappling to experience practicing these techniques and escapes in a contested match. Once you're used to grappling, chances are you'll become sensitive enough to know when the choke is coming and learn to protect yourself before it is sunk in. Against an unexperienced individual many rinky dink self defense moves may work.
MA fanatic

[Merryprankster]

Ah,

When I first read your post, WD, I thought you were saying that you ENTERED the throw straight from the choke.

Now I see that you are peeling, but not controling the hand--rather going straight for the throw.

Ok... now I get it :)

[Water Dragon]

Yes. Once you break the choke, you step back to get the leverage for the throw. When you begin to lift the guy for the throw, it breaks the grip completely. I'm sure it has something to do with the leverage but couldn't expand on that.