What types of BAGS are good?

[CD Lee]

Curious as to what type of bag work some of you guys do to supplement your art. I am would love to hear especially form Xingyi practitioners, but all are welcome.

What types of bags do you use and why?

[Water Dragon]

What skills are you trying to develop? Figure out what you want, then you can figure out what will get you there.

[bearpaw]

We use a large bag filled with rocks ... big rocks ... from the rock pit behind our school ...

[CD Lee]

Well, I was hoping to hear how others with good experience use different kinds of bags for what reasons.

I personally at this point, will want to start checking my body mechanics and alignments for my Kung Fu. I have well developed western boxing jabs, crosses and uppercuts, which are very quick and fluid now. I do not hit bags with those puches, as currently, I would injure my hands, shoulders and definately my wrists. I spent years developing those punches doing arobic workouts, just for exercise, but the punches developed and now they are fast and flowing, but clearly would hurt me if I landed. Hey, in a real self-defence fight, I would not care about getting hurt, and would throw the punches to hurt, but on a bag, I know I would get hurt.

Xingyi is different in mechanics and technique, and I want to start to feel the differences in the way power is imparted to an object statically, and then stepping, and also to let the bag run into me as I use San Ti posture for the purpose of checking my rooting and my redirection of energy.

Bearpaw : Big Rocks...dude, that is awesome. I saw that on Five Fingers of Death. You guys ROCK dude. :D :D :D

[Paul]

dude,
Really now, how well are your punches developed if all you have done is hit air? Why would you get hurt punching a heavy bag? Do you have some kind of injury?

[CD Lee]

dude,
Really now, how well are your punches developed if all you have done is hit air? Why would you get hurt punching a heavy bag? Do you have some kind of injury?


Valid question. You make a great point. I guess I would answer, developed enough to win one fight. Let me explain what I mean.

I have done plenty of punching when I was younger. I won three fights with nothing but solid punches to the body, and those ended because in all three cases, the guys I was fighting suddenly quit punching or defending, just trying to breathe, with that 'look' on their face. These guys were finished after about five-six quick hard body shots. I would be too if they knew how to strike quickly and effectively.

I have since, hit heavy bags, and I could not hit them full strength like a person, because it hurt my hands and wrists. That was years ago.

Since that time, I have not done martial arts(until recently), but have done other workouts over the years, being athletically active no matter what. I am a big boxing fan, so I started working on straight punches maybe ten years ago. Specifically a left jab (which I could not do well at that time), a straight right (also could not do well), and a right uppercut. These are three specific punches that I personally wanted to be able to deliver in a real fight. At first, these punches were just not there. The muscular coordination made these punches awkward, as I was accustomed to throwing wide punches only.

Hitting the big bag at that point would have been pointless to me, as I could not even throw them at air properly. This was not formal you understand. Just me realizing I could not throw good boxing punches. So I slowly (very slowly) would throw the left jab and straight right punches, all the time just for fun, turning the fist over, rotating the arm and hands. I did this for years just for fun, and to get my heart rate up.

What I am saying now, is that I can throw these punches very fast now, they feel incredible and I can snap them very sharply. Because in boxing the recovery is just as important as the delivery of the punch, so you have to work pulling the punch back just as fast. They are coordinated and grooved. And I also have worked them in combinations and added head movement and footwork for the last four years.

When I practice shadow boxing, I never think one punch. I adapt boxing skills for a street confrontation only. A punch to me, or a single boxing move for the street, is a left jab, step and roll/duck, turning into the straight right to available target, left jab, straight right, push, run. This combo takes one second or less. It includes a step to the side after the first right, to gain an angle to the left or right of the attacker, to deliver the next blows.

All this to say what? When I say developed, I mean the moves, the coordination, the snap, the combinations, with head work, and footwork, and then as a quick unit in a combination, almost like a single move in MA. Explosive. Intention.

I have small wrists, I hurt them in every sport I do. I have developed speed and snap in those punches, and am athletically built, 200 lbs, and there is mass moving at a certain speed, so I know there would have to be conditioning before I could go full force on a heavy bag. Ali hardly EVER hit a heavy bag full force, for this very reason.

Sorry about the long winded reply. And I still think you have a valid point. Maybe they are not really that developed.

[yenhoi]

Double Ended Bag.
Wall bag.
Light and or heavy bag.

Punch away, and get some elbows and knees goin on.

[respectred]

what good are all of those punches if they have no power behind them? you can't build power by shadow boxing, just speed, and speed with not too much power isn't all that helpful. to build power hit a heavybag. i got a 100lb canvas heavy bag a year or two ago and for the first couple months of me hitting it i'd hit full force, just out of ignorance because i didn't know any better, and i'd hurt my wrists and cut up my knuckles all the time. after i'd learned my lesson i got a pair of gloves, not the big thick boxing gloves, but light speed bad gloves with padding enough so hitting the bag would barely hurt my knuckles. i'd hit the bag with the gloves for a while, then after a couple weeks or months or so i'd switch to my lifting gloves, which are very thin, the type that are cut off at the middle knuckle of your finger, kinda looks like bicycle gloves. those gloves are the closest thing to going bareknuckle against the bag. so as time went on with using the lifting gloves, my knuckles hardened up and my wrists got stronger (not bigger at all, just very strong and sturdy, i can still wrap two fingers (and then some) around my wrist, so they're pretty **** thin). after many months of hitting the bag with gloves, i finally laid them away and now i hit my 100lb canvas heavy bag with all my strength and power and my wrists don't snap or bend anymore and my knuckles no longer get cut up.

basically, you just need to take it slow and build your wrists up and harden your knuckles. get a pair of gloves that won't hurt your knuckles when you hit the bag and use them for a while to get some strength and stability in your wrists, because if your wrists are weak when you hit a heavy bag they'll snap and bend all over like mine did, but they never broke, maybe i was lucky with that, but they still hurt like hell. after you get used to those gloves, get thinner ones and start hitting the bag with those. just make sure you don't use full force when you start out because your wrists won't be too happy.

also to strengthen your wrists a bit, do some pushups on your knuckles.

-matt

[CD Lee]

Matt,

Excellent advice. Your example is exactly what I know would happen if I hit a heavy bag full blast right away.

My punches have plenty of power for self defense( I think). I have actually recently hit my brother holding up hands and a pad, and bruised him quite nicely. The impact tells me plenty. However, my problem is that I have more power and speed than conditioning to hit a bag. They are not as strong or hard as they would be if conditioned to a bag, but they are strong enough to survive one fight. I just think if I hit someone in the head hard, that is all she wrote for my poor hands. At least for months.

So this is the whole point of this thread. I wanted to know others experience with different bags and the types of training they have done on them.

[Water Dragon]

Here's what you do. First, find someone to teach you correct body mechanics. If you don't have someone, find it. Pick 2-3 exercises and do them 20-50 times a day for 100 days.

At the same time, pick one or two punches to work on, that's it. Make sure you do solid, deep stance training for all stances in that punch. Example: Right Cross has 3. 1. Back stance (stalking stance) 2. Horse Stance (middle of the transition of energy) 3. Front Stance (end position of the punch)

Get a heavy bag and make the end shape of your punch. Swing the bag with your free hand and let it hit your fist. The first goal is to have the bag hit your fist and you don't move. It will take muscle at first, but in 2-3 weeks you'll be able to do it by relaxing.

Next step, transition from the middle stance to the front stance as a movement. Go slow at first, make it natural, then add speed and power (your body mechanic exercises)

Last step is to add in the beginning stance. When you have the whole thing smooth, quick, and powerful, Throw about 2000-3000 punches on the bag from different angles and you have a solid, dependable punch.

Oh yeah, repeat as necesary foer each new strike. :D

[CD Lee]

Water:

Good advice and thanks. I like your approach. I have the teacher, so I just need to get a good bag. Right now we are still doing a lot of stance work and stepping. When that foundation is laid, then the cannons will get loaded onto the tank, so to speak.

How much better is a leather bag than say a cheaper canvas bag? I don't want to waste my money.