Chi-Huggers and Butt-Tuckers

[Sum Guye]

Do they really think that practicing 'Internal' forms will automaticly give them martial abilities?

Do they really believe themselves too deadly to spar-- or are they simply delusional?

[redfist]

it comes down to the individual,
generaly the answer is no and,i hope not.
it`s all relative,we all can be delusional,
chi-hugger? butt-tucker?
never heard of that.

[taijiquan_student]

Could you explain a bit more?

[jon]

"Do they really think that practicing 'Internal' forms will automaticly give them martial abilities?"
* No, most of us are pretty aware there is a big difference between practicing forms and applying movement under preasure and against a determined opponent. There are of course many schools that only teach the health and energy aspects but the systems are orginaly combat orientated. There are still a few around who know how to apply form to fighting.

"Do they really believe themselves too deadly to spar-- or are they simply delusional?"
* Yes im much to deadly to spar everytime i have tried my opponent drops dead at the site of me...

Actualy its in a funny way easyer to spar using internal arts than external ones. Due to the lack of force on force you dont have so much impact in defence and its not as stop start.
Ive found that external arts are often designed around how to do damage where as internal forms are designed around how to nulify force. They both have each others aspects but the focuss is different.
In Hung Ga i learn to break tear and distroy, in Bagua and Tai Chi i learn to ward off absorb and compact expand.


As a guess...
Chi Huggers - Tree Huggers - he is saying we love chi
But tuckers - most internal arts curve the lower spine inwards which if done in an exagerated manner would look like you where tucking in your but.

Dont worry about us we are just a bunch of nutcases who practice silly pointless dances in the hope of tricking our opponents into thinking we are insane and leaving us alone.
If that fails i just switch to matrix style and make time slow down to a stand still before shooting my chi and blowing sh!t up.
You should come try to its great fun:D

[TaiChiBob]

the "tree-hugging" exercise can be as easily refered to as "Chi-hugging".. "Butt-tucking" just sounds wrong.. but, as a reference to opening the Ming Men it suffices..
I like to think of Chi as the most refined fuel available.. and when i go to the race track (competition).. i would rather burn the fuel in a 2002 Porsche Turbo than a 1967 VW Beetle.. same with our bodies, we can refine the chi to great levels but, if the vehicle is not trained and maintained we're just racing in a VW..
As the other posters seem to be saying, its about balance.. a great story from my past... a friend from my younger days inherited a mini-hydroplane (racing boat), but no motor.. he and his father bought and modified a magnificent outboard motor.. on the test-rack it almost shook the place apart, it was a really powerful motor.. so, on that special day we all went to Lake Fairview set the boat in the water, lowered the motor down with a lift, hooked up all the lines, and.. as we freed the motor from the lift sling.. we watched in horror as the nose of the boat pointed skyward and the motor (grossly too large) slowly pulled the little boat to the bottom... lots of Chi/nothing to express it with..
Anything done to extreme in one direction will suffer in another. Balance is the key, we are not fragmented beings.. train all aspects of "who you are"..

[once ronin]

i have seen a 150 lb tai master from guangzhou train some night club bouncers in the U.S. these bouncers were from 220 to 250 lb lein bouncers. but the bouncers all got bounced around. the harder and heavier they are the harder they hit the ground.

your best western scenrio is to also watch a aikido master. these guys like to bounce people off the floor.

feeling the pain is believing. talk is worthless or shield for the not so true master. a good master will should from a light feel to a heavy throw.

[CD Lee]

Internal arts will give you good body alignment and power based on your skeleto structure, regardless. If you can train your body to fight while taking advantage of the natural power in your body, then you can use internal skills to have better martial power. Tucking the butt helps. Keeping the elblows down helps. Having intention to go through your opponent, also helps. No tricks here, just plain physics. Does this seem mysterious?

Internal arts do spar. Ask Tadzio.

[Repulsive Monkey]

What you have just said is all true, but is not the complete explanantion of what Internal Martial does as far as fighting is concerned. Issuing various Jin's to attack and cause damage without the conventional idea of body dynamics and physics didn't come into your explanantion. My Taiji Master literally rendered me unconscious once softly placing his palm on my chest and issuing energy, and practically no physical movement. This does not seem to be explained too well by body dynamics does it?

[Kaitain(UK)]

in the words of the top living master in my lineage

"Not to hit is not to teach"

[les paul]

TaiChiBob
Junior Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 12
the "tree-hugging" exercise can be as easily refered to as "Chi-hugging".. "Butt-tucking" just sounds wrong.. but, as a reference to opening the Ming Men it suffices..
I like to think of Chi as the most refined fuel available.. and when i go to the race track (competition).. i would rather burn the fuel in a 2002 Porsche Turbo than a 1967 VW Beetle.. same with our bodies, we can refine the chi to great levels but, if the vehicle is not trained and maintained we're just racing in a VW..
As the other posters seem to be saying, its about balance.. a great story from my past... a friend from my younger days inherited a mini-hydroplane (racing boat), but no motor.. he and his father bought and modified a magnificent outboard motor.. on the test-rack it almost shook the place apart, it was a really powerful motor.. so, on that special day we all went to Lake Fairview set the boat in the water, lowered the motor down with a lift, hooked up all the lines, and.. as we freed the motor from the lift sling.. we watched in horror as the nose of the boat pointed skyward and the motor (grossly too large) slowly pulled the little boat to the bottom... lots of Chi/nothing to express it with..
Anything done to extreme in one direction will suffer in another. Balance is the key, we are not fragmented beings.. train all aspects of "who you are"..


__________________
TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"




Focus..........Focus on the question at hand

[Repulsive Monkey]

Do you study under Master John Ding by any chance?

[Ray Pina]

Go find a LEGIT internal player and find out!

My experience, anyone learning simply from form is learning form, not function. Internal or external, you'll be a good formist, look sharp, turn on all the ladies at the party.

I've been studying the internal now for a year. Haven't been shown any form but a hell of a lot of function. A REAL LOT! I;d say my gung fu has progressed a few levels, increased my skill by 5 (honestly) since studying. Its the little things that add up to a lot.

I'm entering circle walking now. But I don't consider that form. I consider it a way to work on function, fine tune, feel the correct transformation of weight.

We do a lot of boxing.

As for fighting, I don't think we are too deadly for fighting. I think we are too good for anything but the real deal. Don't chi sau or even push hands, put the gloves on. Its the best representation.

I was an external guy. I've seen it, and at a pretty good level. My first experience against someone internal (not house wife taiji) chnaged the way I viewed it. There's nothing soft about these arts.

Relaxed, sometimes yieling sometimes taking, yes; but not soft.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Repulsive Monkey, actually that could be explained by body mechanics too, but I guess in a way that is not part of our intuitive understanding of body mechanics...it would be like some inner wave generated and channeled by the tendons that you cannot see by external movement, but that travel through the body, gaining force as each single part adds a portion of energy, and being issued in the palm into your rib cage...
My sifu said "3 and 1 inches power punch are requisite for high gong fu levels...but 0 inch punch is what high gong fu level is about"

[Ray Pina]

I agree 100%. You have to be able to deliver power from contact. I'm no internal or external master, not even a senior, but I can produce a blow while ingaged to a bridge. Without this, I don;t think you're even in the ball park, let alone the game.

The big things is, I'm still very external in delivering this blow. I'm hoping with time, more knowledge and practice, it will become more subtle and go deeper (reach internal). But for now I view it as where is the person getting power from? The power should be coming from the back/shoulder/elbow (thrusting)/foot. The power is expressed to the fist, which could be an inch away from the target or on the target.

I'm still sloppy with it, but its important -- I think.

[Ray Pina]

From my experience, I see a lot of people perpetrating punching power from Tricep/Bicep.

Karate likes that nice snapping sound that there GI makes when pulling their arm back sharply. Wing Chun will chain punch until they are blue in the face but where is their power comeing from?

For me, the internal, so far, has been a precise study in mechanics, finding the true sorce of power. Cheating. When you much with your bicep/tricep power, I will counter with my upper back/shoulder muscles (my sifu calls it getting big brother to fight for you). My power is coming from a better sourse, and my wrist, elbow, shoulder alignment is a strong structure. It will not break. If its too much, I will give but the structure remains.

This is one example. The principles goes the same with leg work and stance. I find Wing Chun to be too erect, they have breaking points at their lower back/waist, as well as waist to knee area because of this erect stance. When they get pressure, if they are smaller, they break.

So, for me, this is the first part of the internal, getting things right. I've studied MA almost my whole life, and something as basic as a punch has changed, as well as the way I view it, almost every year. The external aspect of the internal to me, is like a blue print. As for the internal internal, the power, I'm doing my excercises as I've been shown and feeling their affetcs though I do not understand them fully, just noticing them.

That will come with time. I'm in no rush. For now, at 27, fighting has been and is something that I spend a lot of time thinking about, and doing when I have a chance. The principles I've learned from internal so far have helped tremedously. I'd beat the a$$ of the fighter I was a year ago, a month ago.

[Kumkuat]

Crimson. Actually, Mike Sigman can do the no inch punch quite easily, and he's no high level guy. (well, he says he's not high level, but I think he's incredibly good). In fact, Mike believes that any decent internal guy should be able to do the no inch punch especially if they are a teacher.

Bak-mei, many externalist use the waist and drive off with the foot as well during punching. They don't really use arm nor shoulders that much. But I think forms are important to develope your peng jing before you touch someone.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Kumkuat, I do not know Mike Sigman...however, I do acknowledge that if one inch punch is a necessary condition for high gong fu level, as I stated it is not high gong fu level itself.
And I also believe that there are many gradations in one-inch punches, you have lame ones and impressive ones...

[Ray Pina]

If you can't hit from contact you have no business teaching external or internal.

I know this is not an external specialty, but if you can't, maybe one shouldn't rush to teach and continue being a student until they can.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

i was told to slightly tuck in your tailbone when practicing any of the niejia systems and qigong to allow your jing to rise up the spine and mix with chi in middle body after it goes up weilu point through ming men point.

some masters call westerners tai chi toliet taichi cause they stick out there butss so far it looks like they have to turd.

there is a major difference in flexability between asians and westerners. most westerners cant squat and touch butt to heels with feet flat because they are not flexable in ankles and lower back. this makes a huge difference in your forms.

ma

[Ray Pina]

In think labeling an entire geographic area of the planet as unflexible is silly.

Yes, many are not ... and some of those are Chinese too.

Correct alignment, in this case the tailbone being tilted up, has more to do with discovery then flexibility. In real application, how much does one really move?

If my butt is hitting my heel, I'd be quite concerned.

[Ray Pina]

OK, maybe in the US we have not bent over to pick up rice or carried babies on our backs.

But, my backpack that I carried to school from grade 1 up to and including college most likely weighed more than most 1 or 2 year olds at times. And that was not for a few months, but years and years.

And bending, maybe not to pick produce, but to fasten my velcro sneakers say, or play jacks. That's why I think that statement was silly. People are people. Different sizes, colors, but...

"Until a man's skin is of no more segnificance then the color of his eyes ... war"

As for me, I was born and raised in the west. I began Isshin-Ryu training at 4. I'm a bit heavy for my frame: 210lbs on 5'11, but I can almost to a full split, and kick well over my head.

I would argue that today's surfers, skateboarders and snowboarders are more agile than 90% of martial artists out there -- tougher too. Try being drilled into a coral reef by a 15 foot wave breaking in knee deep water: ouch!

[Kevin Wallbridge]

The very best internal stylists that I have had the opportunity to touch have all had lots of experience in unrehearsed/uncontrolled encounters, yet all of them said that the form is the secret.

The form is where we train our structural alignment. Its not crude work, nor is strewing flowers down the garden path; its subtle and rigorous at the same time.

I've seen many advocates of partner work (I'm not talking about anyone on this forum, only some people I've met personally) who actually seem quite complacent in their inability to dig deep and learn their form beyond basic coreography ("I know the form, now I mostly train the combat"). Why did the highest level masters of the 19th and early 20th century usually say train the form more?

If I consider my Taijiquan, I find it very hard to train the form 3 times per day with long term consistency, let alone the recommended 10 times per day of Chen Fake. I've never managed a 10 form day in 10 years of Chen style. I once managed eight and it dominated my whole day ("thats only the fifth, oh god I'd better rest... ok number seven, you can do it, lets go"). I was in great shape and I was still unable to do more than a light set the next day.

I think that a very deep understanding of structure is possible in the form. Chen Fake said words to this effect and he was peerless in dozens of free matches that never passed a three count, and never resulted in any of his opponents suffering any injury. So why exactly does no-one have these skills today? Because we don't spar enough? Well, maybe... then again, do we really train as these high level masters advocated? I'm not saying that it all comes from the form, partner work (co-operative and unco-operative) is a pillar of the training, but I don't think the alternatives can be reduced to "tree hugging and butt tucking."

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

Evolution fist-

i know what you mean by the hard work of skaters, surfers and snowboarders cause i am one. as a martial artist i hear complaints of knee injuries and pain, but they could never relate with slamming on a half-pipe or falling in a empty pool or pavement.

as for differences, there are many when dealing with cultures and flexibility.

ma

[red_fists]

“all of them said that the form is the secret”

Secret to WHAT??
Plus, does it mesh with the Classics.

"Form practice is the way of knowing yourself".
"Tui Shoi is the way of knowing others"

Yep, Form training is important, but not the whole picture.

[TaiChiBob]

secret forms?

Secret forms aren't secret, just very selective as to whom is qualified to understand and utilize these advanced techniques. Truly "secret" forms are the death of a system. The forms die with the keeper of the secrets. It is essential that the system be passed on to qualified heirs, or that portion of the system dies and another portion becomes "secret" and so on...
Chi-Hugging and Butt-Tucking are only modes to greater development, not goals in and of themselves. As Tai Chi Players, we have bought into a process, not a rigid and stagnant system. Each generation, indeed, each individual contributes to the system in some way, even if its only by being there as support, by challenging the teacher to teach, by contributing financially to support those willing to dedicate themselves to furthering the art.
We train the flesh to maximize our ability to use the Chi, each dependent upon the other. Fighting/healing, internal/external, master/student.. body physics/chi applications.. two sides of the same coin.. Its not what is engraved on the coin (styles/systems) that is valuable, rather, it is the quality of the metal.. Every act we perform is an expression of Chi at some level, the question is .. Are we conscious of the Chi to deed relationship and, what is our "intention".. Too often people mistake the ritual for the goal. Tai Chi Chuan, the form, the dance.. Tai Chi, a way of living.. Buried in the details we will often miss the simpler rewards of our practice... enhanced quality of Life..

Be well, do good deeds (deeds define us)..

[Ray Pina]

I'm no longer big on "forms", but I practice my form ever day.

Going through the entire form, how much time is spent on Cloud Hands?

I'd rather pull out one section and work it and its principles for 45 minutes at a time. I'll learn and come away with soemthing everythime.

I usually start slow, checking alignment, relaxation and where the power is coming from. Then I'll speed it up, trying to relax (I still have too much of that hard in me), and when it feels good I'll slow it down again, to see how close to what "ideal" is to me, at my low level of internal understanding.

This is improtant to me. Because when I do face an apponant, it is the faith in the movement, structure, that allows me to go in with full intention. So, form for function, not form for form sake.

Sometimes, when too much enphaisis is placed on "form", people tend to get the idea that pushing against the air for 5 years will make them a good martial artist. You need the other side, the hands on, non-cooperative partner to test ideas encountered while practicing the form.

Which is most important? I think that's a silly question, because going into that hands on experince, without first testing and tasting through form research, is like going into battle never having fired your weapon, knowing how to even load it.

[TaiChiBob]

Thank you.. <bows respectfully>

I have been personally "touched" by 3 people that i feel were manifesting true Chi-Power.. Chan Pui, Cui Lu Yi, and Victor Kim.. others have expressed remarkable talent, but i didn't feel the power that literally re-arranged my insides, or sent me flying with a seemingly gentle touch.. oops, i almost left out Cai Song Feng, he asked each member of the seminar to assume their best ward-off stance, and he repeatedly pushed each of us off our stance with a two-handed push on our forearms, the same pushing pressure by me would not have moved the heavy-bag 2 inches.. yet, he moved all the students, some 200 lbs.+, completely off our stances slowly, gently and regardless of how fervently we resisted or struggled to push back.. ( i have no physical/mechanical explanation)..
G'Master Chan Pui has many time surprised me with touches, taps and pushes that manifested results far beyond the physical energy generated (including very disorienting feelings lasting for hours). Victor Kim, in an attempt to demonstrate Fa Jing, sent this 2nd place finisher in Chen Competitions/1st in pushing hands at that particular tournament, flying no less than 12 feet and only then being stopped by a wall. Cui Lu Yi pressed her forearm into my abdominal region and as she gently rolled her forearm upward, "flicked" it.. leaving me sitting on the ground praying my sphincter would contain the chaos.

Certainly, there are those persons of very high degrees of skill/training that tap into the Tao at a very primal and powerful level.. in the Martial arts arena, each that i am aware of has dual-trained.. internal and external.. That being said, i have witnessed other non-martial arts demonstrations that left no doubt as to the authenticity of forces other than electro-bio-mechanical available to each of us.. exceeding all previous imaginings.. The vast majority of us are infants in the field of possibilities.. but, it is the learning that is its own motivation.. it is the richness of friends and acquaintences like you guys (and gals).. that make the journey worth the effort..

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Nicely said Bamboo Leaf.

I'm not advocating form to the exclusion of partner work. I do wonder how many people simply perform maintenance and forget to advance that aspect of the wisdom in the effort to repeat the experience a moment of power over another person.

As for the classics, they also suggest:

"By first seeking to develop conscious movement in yourself and realizing it in your own body, you will naturally be able to know it others. If you seek it first in others, it is likely you will miss it in yourself. It is essential that you understand this principle, and the ability to interpret energy follows from this."

[Zantesuken]

Evolution_fist. It's good to improve on certain parts of your form but in total you should practise the entire form at once because that's how they were designed. 108 movements = 108 deities in Toaism. So when you do complete 108 you truly gain the perfect balance of yin and yang or that's what i've read. The whole form is meant to strengthen your body as a whole.

If you keep practising cloud hands for 45 mins then practise ward off for another 45 then how are you going to move into it during a real fight? You only practise the movements seperately whereas in the form you learn to flow between them. blah that's just my crappy understanding but if u do do the 45 min stuff do each thing 1,3,5,7, or 36 times.

[CD Lee]

Where is Sum Guye?

He started this thread, and I was interested to his response to so many replys. I am disappointed . He seems like a bit of a troll so far from what I can tell. He starts ****, but has no meat to offer.

SUM GUYE, COME OUT, COME OUT, WHEREVER YOU ARE........

[Sum Guye]

I haven't seen anything to respond to yet on this particular thread. I asked a question and pretty much got exactly what I figured... nothing.

As for 'stirring up **** and offering no meat'...
I disagree with you. I've got lots of meat and offer it when it seems appropriate (however, on this board that usually means posting additional re-wordings/re-workings of the same post to clear up confusion for the litterally challenged.. which is a hassle.
I don't mind folks disagreeing with me... but I prefer they disagree with my point rather than some bizarre misinterpretation of my point)

As for 'trolling' I've read through lots of threads on lots of discussion boards. I post a reply if I think I can help someone understand something or I'll post a reply if something strikes me as something I'd like to post about.... but mostly I just read, laugh at the chi-hugger and butt-tucker fantasy martial artists and go on about my day.

Are you suggesting I post a reply on every thread I read so I make my presence well known so folks like you can't accuse me of trolling? Maybe I don't understand what you consider 'trolling'.

[jon]

"I asked a question and pretty much got exactly what I figured... nothing. "
* Not to sound to bitter but that is total rubbish, considering your thread was basicaly a razzle you got WAY more than you should. You have several high level practioners here all posting there experiences and how they apply there art.
I think your just not ready to accept that you may actualy be wrong.
Your 'meat' is hinted at but still non existant.
You asked for how we apply our arts, you got it!
Dont now turn tail and try and make out that no one has answered your question. Thats simply insulting to all the people who have put in effort.
I was actualy VERY supprised at how much great infromation is being thrown about.
I only wish the Southern forum was like this, instead of just a bunch of people pretending to know better without offering any substance. Kinda like what your doing really...

"I don't mind folks disagreeing with me... but I prefer they disagree with my point rather than some bizarre misinterpretation of my point)"
* You didnt have a point you asked a question, for which you got various answers. People are not disagreing with you either they are simply informing you of there experience.

Nothing personal just you could be a little more gracious, if you didnt want what you got, then im afraid thats the way the cookie crumbles.

[Sum Guye]

Jon,

Here is the post that started this thread:
"Chi-huggers and Butt-tuckers"
"Do they really think that practicing 'Internal' forms will automaticly give them martial abilities?
Do they really believe themselves too deadly to spar-- or are they simply delusional"

(did I ask anyone, high level or not, how they apply their art?
no... I asked if anyone out there REALLY thinks doing ONLY forms and excercises gives them any martial ability- and if anyone thinks they can't spar because they are too deadly.)

"You asked for how we apply our arts, you got it!"- no I didn't.
As I implied in my most recent post, again someone (you) didn't understand the 'questions' and is responding to smack I never said.

"I think your just not ready to accept that you may actualy be wrong" (what am I wrong about?
do YOU believe someone can develop martial abilities by learning to mimic the movements- but never try the applications?)
(Do you believe you are too deadly to spar?)

"Nothing personal just you could be a little more gracious, if you didnt want what you got, then im afraid thats the way the cookie crumbles" (look, mate, I didn't complain- I didn't bicker- I posted a question, read the answers and then responed to CDLee asking
where I was- and to whether or not I was 'trolling'. No, I don't take much personally- it sounds like you have though.)

"I was actualy VERY supprised at how much great infromation is being thrown about." good, then you should've enjoyed this- instead you're trying (in vein) to put me down for what I've done
(and not done) in this thread... now that aint very 'gracious' of you. And if you think these 3 pages have been great information,
you're well on your way to being a chi-huggin' butt-tucker.

For the record, I've been studying internal styles for over 10 years. I spar, I'm fighting in a full contact tournament next month,
I'm kind, generous and not easily bothered (don't think you've bothered me because you can't). I know that someone can't learn martial prowess by only doing 'forms'... but had hoped to discuss it with some folks- unfortunately for both of us- the discusion I started ended immediately with people debating 'secret forms' and whether or not one should be able to 'issue power from the bridge' and other crap that I don't want to waste my time with. I'm not a chi-hugger nor a butt-tucker and I find those who are an infinate source of amusment.

Speaking of wasted time... I'm off like a prom dress--
later.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Sum Guye, actually I dont know why you bother to ask anything on these boards for I have read your past posts and it seems that you already know everything there is to know.

I think that you post questions so when people answer you can tell them their wrong! (Poor attitude for a 10 year martial artist).

You also said "As for 'trolling' I've read through lots of threads on lots of discussion boards. I post a reply if I think I can help someone understand something"

WHERE and WHEN? I have read all 78 of your posts and they are nothing of the sort. I have not read one that was inspirational, educational or helpful.

I felt sorry for the guys who tried to give you a serious answer to your derogitory and sarcastic remark of "chi huggers and butt tuckers" that of which you claim not to be.....

10 years in the martial arts huh? I suggest you you ask for a refund for as far as I am concerned you have learned nothing....

[Sum Guye]

Thanks very much for the compliment, but I'm far from knowing everything there is to know. I had hoped to learn if anyone here REALLY believes they develop fighting skill by only practicing internal forms and exercises.

I do not post only to tell people they are wrong (and you might note that this was the first thread I've ever started on KFO- and I haven't told anyone they're wrong yet). I simply hoped to discuss that aspect of internal practice with someone.

(by the way, didn't I read in a post of yours that you sometimes ask your class "raise your hands if you know how to breathe" and then when they raise their hands you tell them to "put their hands down because they're wrong"?) Its cool when you do it... but downright bothersome if anyone else does, huh.

Since we're on the subject....
Do you think a person automatically gains martial abilities by ONLY practicing forms and exercises without ever testing themselves in a non-cooperative situation?

As for my 78 posts never offering anything helpful... I disagree with you, but here, as a show of friendship I'll offer this helpful information to you now- you misspelled the word 'friend' in your tag line on your 'sifu 2 many friend 2 all' (if you ever change it, that will show me that I've been helpful to you.)

I don't think anyone can miraculously achive martial prowess by simply doing forms and swirling chi... therefore, I am not a chi-hugger. I don't tuck my butt under... therefore, I am not a butt-tucker.

"I suggest you you ask for a refund for as far as I am concerned you have learned nothing" (did you stutter there? I've learned a great deal- and have spent very little- no refund needed... but thanks for the suggestion).

[CD Lee]

Sum Guye

Look man, here is the deal. Your post set us all up here with attitude. Your subject is insulting to start with. Butt-tuckers. And what does that make you a butt-poker? See how that sounds? It is insulting. You are on an Internal forum here. You set this response up. Plus, when I start a reply as to the purpose of tucking the rear, your a no show. You should have clarified your question better as you could see pretty quickly that people were responding.

Frankly, your lack of response initially just verifies your lack of interest in the initial question. You appear to be stirring the ant pile with a stick.

However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I look forward some good posts from you in the future.

PS. I have had my posts called into question before, and been accused of trolling. This is a great place for information if you show some respect. Confession also wins these guys hearts.

[Sum Guye]

"Your subject is insulting to start with. Butt-tuckers. And what does that make you a butt-poker? See how that sounds? It is insulting"

The subject would only seem insulting to someone who is a chi-hugger or a butt-tucker. Anyone else would not be bothered. (that's not knocking Internal Martial Artist- I have tons of respect for real Internal Martial Artists).

butt-poker? insulting? IT sounds funny and silly- but not at all insulting to me.

"Frankly, your lack of response initially just verifies your lack of interest in the initial question. You appear to be stirring the ant pile with a stick."

my lack of respone actually verifies that:
.A. I have such a full life that I have little time to spend surfing the web or this board.
.B. during what spare time I did have- I saw nothing that made me think 'okay, I'd like to sprend time discussing this' (which disappointed me more than it did you)

"...Confession also wins these guys hearts."
I'm not interested in winning any "guys hearts"
(does butt-poker insult you?)

AND HOW DARE YOU CALL EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD "ANTS"!

[jon]

Im sorry if i came accross as insulting but i was just suprised at your ho-hum attitude towards the people who had given you there time.

"Do you think a person automatically gains martial abilities by ONLY practicing forms and exercises without ever testing themselves in a non-cooperative situation?"
*I actualy study both internal and external arts and can see combat value in both of them. I certainly believe in practice against resisting commited opponents and not simply practicing wrist locks against an arm held out infront of you. Still you have to remember that many come to the internals becouse they dont like all the hard contact and fighting content, should we turn all of these students away? This also depends on your view of martial skills, good enough to strike a vital point and run or good enough to kill with single blows? Whats your poison?
I spar and i also seek to test my skill, that doesnt mean i pick fights but i dont turn down offers to cross hands either.

I would also have to say, i think you did hint towards asking how we use our arts practicaly. Even if that was not the exact question it very much seemed to be where it was leading.
If you didnt, then you only expected a yes\no answer which is both rediculous and pointless given the question.
As i say i have nothing against you personaly and im sorry if i came accross that way but i do have something against your attitude in this thread.
We may just have to agree to disagree and move on with our lives...
Or maybe you would like to share how you use your internals in a martial situation? Do you practice form? What are your views on using internal force in a real confrontation when the addrenalin is kicking? Can you spar using totaly internal arts or are you foced to mix and match? Can you still use internal arts whilst wearing gear? How do you find using internals vs heavy externals like Karate and Thai Boxing? How do you fare vs heavy grappling based styles?

Do you have anything to offer us or are you just trying to beat us down to make yourself feel better?

[jon]

Opps...
Here is the answer to your other questions you have addressed to me personaly.
Please keep in mind my internal experience in limited, but im a student of Hung as well.

"do YOU believe someone can develop martial abilities by learning to mimic the movements- but never try the applications?) "
* This is a bad question becouse it has two perfectly reasonable answers.

Yes:
Throw a punch into the air a thousand times and even if you hit nothing you have still learnt the punch. You can learn the mechanics to striking without actualy hitting anything, needless to say this is not a wise training method.

No:
To actualy fight USING your art requries you to be trainined very well in it and have a detailed knowledge of how to apply movement to differing physical situations. The skills involved in long range movements and tactics are very different to the ones imployed when hip to hip. To fully understand both you MUST have experience in actualy contact in them. But this is as i say where our problem lies, you can learn to hit and learn to move without touching a thing. learning to actualy get those hits in though... thats another matter.

"Do you believe you are too deadly to spar?"
* Bah, if only:(
I love to cross hands and i love the feel of exchanging forces with a skilled practioner.
However i would not like to spend all my time fighting in NHB events i prefer my partners to NOT be trying to actualy kill me and if i make a mistake i dont want to be put out of action for 6 months. I fight to learn not to prove points.

Sam i understand you more than you might think, i have many of the same attitudes and i know that these systems stem from combat and everything has a combat purpose. I spend my time in total ammazment at the way many seem to believe there chi will fight for them or the world will freeze frame in time for them to apply there various dim mak strikes as well. The main thing is though that im now trying to be a little more understanding of different people.
When i stared Bagua i met my new training brother, he was tall VERY well built and south American. He had tattoo's up and down his arms and i was starting to get excited trying to imagine how good he must be in combat.
It turned out that he was studying Bagua becouse he loves Qigung and loves the I-Ching, is he wrong for his reasons? He hated fighting and i basicaly teach him various bits of different skills to apply to combat, im half his size and can take him to pieces. He has just started to attempt Bagua in combat and although it certainly interests him its not why he is there.
We all study for a different purpose, some to fight, some for better health and even a few just study becouse its there and looked like fun at the time.
Im trying to learn to not be so judgemental of others on differing paths and i would honestly pass on the humble surgestion that you do the same. I dont mean that to sound nasty so i hope you dont take offense to it, i just see you as having many of the same problems i do. I could of course be very wrong.
Jon

[Zantesuken]

to that learn by movement thing it's not impossible. a lot of peopl ei know mostly practise the form and when i go to play around they can seriously defend themselves so i don't doubt sum guy's ability. everyone here just thinks 'hands on application' means you're good. not necessarily. you can be good if you have the grounding.

it all depend son the mentality of your training. honestly not everyone will attain a high level. personally i don't know my limit but i haven't reached it yet and i'm not too good now. some people have the actual talent for it and some are not so smart so there is a dividing line that you can't just say no hands on equals bad. practising the movements can attribute to the martial aspect because if they do practise it enough then the martial part will be there. trust me my grandma is a friggin wall. she's done it for 18 years straight and never ONCE used it in a fight but i still can't push her over, my fist bounces off her chest (not boobs you sickos) and her dan tien, i can't push her over(already said) and yeah and she only practised the forms and excercises. so don't tell me it's not possible without the martial application. the aspects of push hands is also important because it is training you to listen to the other person's body.

for those people who think that without application then they're no good then i disagree. especially in something like tai chi it's not just the appliaction. some people here talk about practising one part 45 mins straight. fine they'll get that part right and in a fight they can cloud hands the guy all they want. but what if the guy decides to act back and he has real internal power? Then the cloud hands guy will get screwed because he only practised a few parts fo the form. but then again the way everyone decides to train is fine as well. just saying there's more than one side to the debate ;P

[EARTH DRAGON]

Thanks for pointing that out I will change it when I get a chance.

So I guess I was wrong you have been "helpful" to me with not only 1 but 2 things.

1.To change my spelling on my avatar.

2. Reminding me never to respond to your posts.

Thanks you have been very helpful......

[CD Lee]

The subject would only seem insulting to someone who is a chi-hugger or a butt-tucker. Anyone else would not be bothered. (that's not knocking Internal Martial Artist- I have tons of respect for real Internal Martial Artists).


I am insulted by your name usage. I tuck my butt in, as part of the study and practice of Xingyiquan. So do the other two internal arts. It is for alignment, but you have YET to respond my post on why we tuck in. You have a problem with tucking in the rear, so why don't you get into some detail as to why you ridicule this specific practice. I don't think you have the knowlage to do so. Good luck.

So what you are in effect implying, is that 'real' Internal artists do not tuck in their rears. See, this is why I don't think you know much about internal arts. Please explain why real internalists do not tuck their butts.



my lack of respone actually verifies that:
.A. I have such a full life that I have little time to spend surfing the web or this board.


It verifies you don't know what you are talking about. You seem to respond very quickly to posts that are directed at you, which tell me you spend plenty of time surfing. Your actions contradict your stated position.



(does butt-poker insult you?)


No, I tuck in.



AND HOW DARE YOU CALL EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD "ANTS"!


How dare you pretend you know what your talking about on an internal forum. Ant. :D

Anyway, I can see we are not going to get anything of substance from you as your posting record has established the depths of your martial art knowlage so far.

[bamboo_ leaf]

it was a good thread for a little while :(


Z,

You surprise me again; :) actually correct practice should be such that it permeates the body and mind.

The key is correct practice, correct understanding, talent helps, but to go as far as one can go with what one is given the right teacher is very a very important key.

This should be enough for most people, more then enough to deal with what life hands you.

A while ago some one posted about someone doing only standing, sparred with some one and was able to hold his own. For those who practice revolves around sparring matches and constantly proving what they know it’s the complete opposite of what they understand.

They won’t get it and will attempt to pull others down to their level, it’s not about fighting but can be used for it. Once the skill is attained, it is not the skill attained though fighting. Many miss this point.

Their mouth will say internal, the only thing internal about their practice is the air they use to tell others about it.

[Zantesuken]

hey bamboo leaf is surprising you a good thing? and i guess you can practise different aspects but it's just that everyone here says that they practise the 'fighting' aspect of tai chi so i was wondering how you can uproot someone who's practised it and has a better grounding and internal energy than the attacker? tai chi 'fighters' may work against 70% of external stylists but once they start facing out with the high levels then you'll know. for external stuff like wing chun and stuff when people tell me this guy is good i'd believe them because the physical is already seen and by looking atthe person i can tell. tai chi however is a totally different thing :p gotta see it first hand to have an opinion

[jon]

Whilst i agree with the general senitment to your post there are a few things i would take issue with, if i may.

"For those who practice revolves around sparring matches and constantly proving what they know it’s the complete opposite of what they understand.
They won’t get it and will attempt to pull others down to their level, it’s not about fighting but can be used for it. Once the skill is attained, it is not the skill attained though fighting. Many miss this point.
Their mouth will say internal, the only thing internal about their practice is the air they use to tell others about it."

* Just judging purely from these paragraphs it would appear that you do not respect those of us who are combat driven.
Perhaps you may misunderstand exactly why some of us are...
If im shown a technique i like to know its name and what its for, this helps me realise on a fundamental level what it was designed for, from here i can then go about making the movement my own and commiting it to my subconcious. I do like to spar and test skills but that doesnt mean i push others to do the same. To me if i dont know the expression and dont know the purpose then the movement becomes simply waving around my hands, i can do with energy but really whats the point.
As my sifu likes to say 'mind leads the hand' how can i do this if i dont understand what my hands are doing anyway?
For me these arts where made first and foremost for combat, if they were not combat based they would simply be qigung. For me personaly i believe that if you study a fighting system then you should use it as it was designed. However i dont push this belief on others as i learnt the hard way that many people dont like combat but do like the forms and movements.
I could be very wrong in my assumption but i couldnt help get the feeling you believe that sparring and hard contact is detrimental to internal development. For me this is far from the truth, many traditional internal schools train with a combat focus and i simply see this as there focus. Others focus healing and others chi, still for me its the combat that makes the art.
Honestly if i JUST wanted better chi and health, i would study Yoga not kung fu.

[Zantesuken]

but just pure combat drive is not a totally good mindset. you should practise for health, fitness, and defense/combat. i guess you can be shown the moves and told but don't you ever stop to think and say, ' hey this move can be used in such and such a situation'? the moves are all interchangeable so there is no 'right move'. tai chi is not 1+1 = 2. It's x + y = 2. Meaning there are an infinite number of ways you can get to 2 so don't limit yourself. A sifu is there to only push you along your progress. once you get to higher levels it's mostly up to you and how your potential really is.

[jon]

I never implied that health and finess and spirituality where not imprortant aspects of the internal systems.
My state was that was combat 'focused' hence that is my main goal from the training.
For me what you say about application is exactly how ive been taught and i kinda fail to see why you have brought this up...
To expand however a little on your thinking here is how i relate such things.
Every movement is a style of power generation and mindset how you apply those two principles is totaly up to the practioner.
I relate combat to chaos theory in that no two complex things ever happen the same way twise, to be able to use your system in combat you must move beyond 'this for that' mentality and into the realm of creative adaptation of technique to fit differing situations.
This is also the reason why i personaly believe that combat 'should' be a major focuss to internal arts. If you only learn basic application and are not taught to addapt your technique on the fly according to the situtation at hand you WILL fail badly on the street. This type of training is only possible by working on a resisting opponent intent on breaking your structure and form.
Without this kind of preasure the student reverts into the fairytale of thinking that they know an answer for most moves hence can of course fight.
If im sparring and i have the same technique blocked the same way twise you can be sure the third time i do it will be different enough to get though that same defence.

Just to restate...
I dont believe that combat should be the only thing taught or even that it should be taught as a major part of the training [although thats my personal pref] however i DO believe that to use it effectively in application you MUST train in the right way.

Yang Lu Chan, Wang Zi Pang, Yin Fu
All these men where the top of the line as far as internal stylists go and all of them where totaly combat driven and never turned down an oppontunity to cross hands to further there art.

My linage is a linage of Tai Chi and Bagua 'fighters' and i have no wish to suddenly change all that.

[Zantesuken]

how do you know they never passed up a chance to cross hands? did you know them? not to be a jerk or anything. but yeah that's true they weren't entirely combat driven to.

yes it is up to your ability to adapt but i'm saying that it's the mindset. honestly all the stuff i get taught is taught in chiense and my chinese is pretty bad so i can't do good translations.

i guess i kinda dind't finish my thought there but yeah. i sometimes look around for fun and found something at hsing-i.com i think that's the site. but the guy was talking about how you use this in this situation and that in that.

and i don't think the actual appliaction is all that important at higher levels. great masters of it can repel attackers if they're hit in the chest without using their hands. and i've tried this but i didn't get hit but my hand still bounced back which was pretty cool. but still i guess everyone trains with a different mindset but a lot of people here just seem to say things like 'i wanna fight the people who do the 'health dance' are just imitating movements'. if that were true then i could run into my grandma and she's only like 5'5 and i'm 5'11 but haha honestly it doesn't work. anyways yeah gotta get to bed. it's 4am. cya

[jon]

"how do you know they never passed up a chance to cross hands? did you know them? not to be a jerk or anything. but yeah that's true they weren't entirely combat driven to. "
*hehe I dont:eek:
Seriously of course my statement was a little presumptuous but ive actualy heard it said about all of them. I even know of a few cases where some where beaten.
Wang Zi Pang was once beaten by an Elephant kung fu exponent:cool:
I do agree with you however that it shouldnt be the only focus, my internal sifu is chinese and his english aint grand either. Im blessed in that my Hung sifu is not and speaks perfect English as well as being able to explain fighting in a technical sence with ammazing accuracy.
Anyway enjoy your sleep, i think i may need to take your advice and not be sooooo combat driven. I think my Bagua sifu may start to worry about me:rolleyes:
All the best
Jon

[Chris McKinley]

I think perhaps some of the disagreements here derive from the American predilection for taking an issue and assuming that there two and only two sides to it and further that those sides are diametrically opposed to one another and represent the polar extremes. Since this is how the issue at hand has already been framed thus far, that's how I'll address it.

Without needing to resort to negative characterization, much of one's views on this particular matter will stem from the purpose for which one is training. A high degree of refinement and skill can be achieved through solo practice OR by also including interactive training with a partner.

Where my own view falls is due in part to a desire not to leave out many aspects of training that were and are a traditional part of the arts that I practice. Whatever one's position, keep in mind that the idea of "solo forms practice only" is a relatively new one, and that the traditions of every major system of internal arts did and/or does include additional training. The other major factor influencing my position includes the "why", or "what for", of my training.

I train and study the internal martial arts and others for a wide-ranging variety of reasons, but the foremost of these is the oldest and most traditional of all. That is, to acquire real life-or-death combat skills for the protection of myself and my loved ones. Having had to face life-threatening encounters more than once, I am rather strongly convinced that it is profoundly unwise to find oneself in such a situation with skills which are unproven and/or untested in any way, in context.

Now, people may go about testing such skills in a myriad of ways. That's up to each person. But to illustrate the sentiment of my point, let me paint a picture. It's late at night. You and your family are on vacation in a major metropolitan U.S. city (such as NYC, L.A., Chicago, or Philadelphia). Walking toward your car in a giant poorly-lit underground parking garage are you, your wife, and your two young children, one of whom is a baby being carried on your wife's hip. You (for whatever stupid reason) are entirely unarmed, save for a couple of large shopping bags from a local upscale mall. There's not another soul in sight. As you reach your car, two young hoods who have been watching you step out and approach you, offering compliments on how nice your car is.

It becomes obvious to you that you are being mugged and that they intend to take the car as well as your wallet, your wife's purse, and the shopping bags. You intend to just hand over the items, knowing that they are just "things" that can be replaced. But then one of them starts making comments about how pretty your wife is and how much she'd like to go for a ride with them and what a good time they're going to show her. One of them begins approaching her as the other presents a knife and comes directly toward you.

Now THAT'S a g*d****ed nightmare, folks. You know that crime statistics show that victims who are taken to another location are many times more likely to be killed. You also know that there are no cops or anyone else around to help, your cellphone is in your wife's purse where you don't currently have time to get to it, and that only you stand between those two and your family. You steel your resolve, say a silent prayer of supplication and engage the guy attacking you with the knife.

Pause. I'd like for each and every one of you to take a moment and ask yourself: if that was you in that situation, knowing that death or worse awaited you and your entire family if you failed, would you honestly feel more comfortable attempting a response that you had only practiced as part of a solo form over one that you had practiced, refined, done the troubleshooting on, and succeeded with repeatedly against a moving, resisting opponent?

While the question seems to be asked rhetorically, I assure you it is not. The answer to that question can have profound, perhaps permanent, influence on your training. For those who choose to make solo forms practice the entirety of their training, more power to them. It is, after all, a very intimate, profound, and above all personal choice. Let each choose as he or she may. I simply suggest that everyone know themselves and the purpose for their training before making that decision. Then choose that which is most congruent to you, whatever it may be. That way, whatever you choose, it will be an informed decision.

[Zantesuken]

then that's your drive. each person practises for a different reason. i'd say about 80% of westernerners do need that 'hands on' thing to say that they have proven something. the only real reason that you need the hands on context is because you want to prove to yourself that you're progressing. i guess you also want that assurance. but hey dont' tell me you're going to fend off someoen with a gun from 4 feet away.

if it's a knife thing then fine go take a simpler system like wing chun or kempo. if you've been in a life or death situation then you know that what you need is something that's very effective and that you can train up in a short amount of time. tai chi is not one of those things. but yeah i do respect your reason for taking up whatever martial arts you do do :)

[Kevin Wallbridge]

I find it interesting that people here seem to assume that a person who doesn't participate in full contact tournaments or treat their basic form training as supplementary must not be "combat oriented." Just because I don't travel around looking for it doesn't mean I don't get plenty of opportunity to enage with many martial artists of many styles.

I will use Chen Fake for my example again (the Chen I train comes from him through Chen Zhaokui and Ma Hong). At a critical stage in his early training Chen Fake actually restricted his crossing hands to nurture his skill before matching his rather tough cousin, how did that work? Later in his life his focus was definitelty on the form, yet he matched with anyone who came to him. Why was he given a plaque saying his Taijiquan was the highest level?

I will continue to ask why some are so confident this method doesn't have merit?

As for Chris McKinley's scenario, if people were drawing knives on me in all those matches that I had then I suppose the experience might feel different, otherwise I'd like to know myself. Do you understand how fear manifests in you body and mind? Have you ever studied your own emotions as a part of your training?

Just to be clear about what I'm saying here, is there only one way to be combat oriented? Are you sure?

[Chris McKinley]

Zantesuken,

RE: "the only real reason that you need the hands on context is because you want to prove to yourself that you're progressing.". Nope. I've been at this game a fairly long time, 27 years. I have no insecurity about "what if I'm not progressing?". To state that that is the ONLY reason I practice hands-on training seems to me to reflect a fair amount of inexperience and naivete, not to mention that it's rudely assumptive.

RE: "i guess you also want that assurance. but hey dont' tell me you're going to fend off someoen with a gun from 4 feet away.". I won't, and I didn't. In fact, it would be much easier to deal with a firearm from point-blank range, but that's beside the point. In the scenario I described, you simply don't have any choice. You can't (ethically) just sit there and not try your ****dest to defend yourself and your family just because you're convinced it's going to be difficult or that the odds aren't in your favor.

RE: "if it's a knife thing then fine go take a simpler system like wing chun or kempo.". Thank you very much for the input. Those are not bad recommendations, though for bladed combat, I vastly prefer one of my other major arts, which is Filipino Kali. However, that's still not really the point, kiddo. Once you're faced with the situation, it's too late to think, "Hey, maybe I should've taken up Kali or Kenpo or Wing Chun instead." You have to use what you've got right there, right then. And since we're talking about Taijiquan practitioners, that's what they will have available.

RE: "...if you've been in a life or death situation then you know that what you need is something that's very effective and that you can train up in a short amount of time. tai chi is not one of those things.". True enough, to a point. However, if you stick around longer than it takes to train up those basic skills, you may develop a desire to refine your ability further, maybe even learning how to move all over again using internal power instead. Yes, it will take a while, but you've still got those basic skills in your arsenal should you need them. In the meanwhile, you can multiply the effectiveness of those basic responses by taking the time, however long it is, to learn an internal art. I know from firsthand experience.

If you'll notice, my post wasn't ONLY to illustrate the motivations of my training or what I train my students to be prepared for. Surely more importantly, it was to spur each individual internal arts practitioner to introspect and examine THEIR motivations. You guys couldn't care less why I do what I do. But knowing what YOUR purposes/motivations, etc. are is of tremendous importance to you.


Kevin,

RE: "...if people were drawing knives on me in all those matches that I had then I suppose the experience might feel different, otherwise I'd like to know myself." I'm not quite sure where you're coming from on this statement. Yeah, I think it would obviously feel different facing the possibility of real loss of life rather than simply "crossing hands", but the last part is what throws me. Are you suggesting that facing real danger does not allow one to "know" oneself? If so, I would suggest that nothing strips away illusion and reveals you as facing the possibility that you may not walk away alive from the situation in front of you. If that's not what you meant, would you mind clarifying for me?

RE: "Do you understand how fear manifests in you body and mind? Have you ever studied your own emotions as a part of your training?". I'm going on the assumption here that these questions aren't necessarily directed at me, but rather to all of us. However, answering for myself, the answer to both questions is a very deep yes. I'm intimately acquainted with how fear manifests itself in me. As for the second, a little further down the path of internal arts study, emotional expression is a part of the energies one trains to understand, especially in the Taoist arts. I've also studied psychology and learning theory to some degree of depth. One of my primary interests as a physiologist is the neurophysiological basis of emotion. All of it works together for me to make my neijia training that much richer an experience.

RE: "Just to be clear about what I'm saying here, is there only one way to be combat oriented? Are you sure?". No, there are many ways. And yes, I'm sure. :P

[Internal Boxer]

Chris I have to take my hat off to you mate you are spot on mate.


TO ALL THE LADS WHO HAVE POSTED ON THIS THREAD

I understand that whatever the reasons people do IMA is purely for themselves.

And I understand that my truth is not your truth.

Having spent time in full contact fighting I can say it is just not the same when it comes to the street, but I will say I have learnt valuable skills in full contact that has helped me in street fights.

When I was with my Indian girlfriend (I am white) I was attacked by 3 racists (very brave of them) these guys were real scum bags and they seriously wanted to hurt me and my girl, my adrenaline was in overdrive and I was sh.it scared (yet I have no fear in a full contact fight, probaby cause in a full contact fight you realise you are not going to die cause its a sport.) in that situation when its too dark and you cannot see whats going on, it all happens too quick so you have to let your animal instincts take over. No fancy techinques: biting, eye gouges, mauling and headlocks are the order of the day. It is my belief that the internal structures and chi cultivation are important so you can become a natural instinctive fighter, with very simple and nasty techniques, but aquiring the internal prerequistes such as sticking listening loading.

Look at how a dog fights it does not block with its paw it finds the best angle to go for the throat and ends it asap. Some of you may disagree with this and thats fine I have no problem with that cause what works for me will not necesarily work for you.

Real fighting is not romantic it is scary and ugly.

I realise that you cannot say things Like "Tai chi is only meant to be used in this way or else it is not tai chi" wrong !! it is personal to the individual.

some people tend to think that the training methods of the art is the way you should fight, and thats fine but looking at the bigger picture none of you guys should worry what the next guy is doing and stand in judgement of him, cause we should focus on what works for ourselves and not be obsessed about what true Taiji is about but rather use Taiji as building skills and each individual will have a different emphasis on a specific area of their training.

Gotta do some five elements, see ya

[Braden]

Some of the most inspirational things I have encountered, in terms of opening up my eyes for my solo practice, have come from 'hands-on' experience.

A point of Chris McKinley's post none of you have addressed yet, is that 'hands-on' methods, of a variety of sorts, have been a traditional part of the arts we study; and a move away from them, justified or not, has been a relatively new thing.

I have always thought to myself, in light of my experiences, that the reason all these methods were invented by the 'old masters' is in recognition that, really, none of us are going to be Dong Hai-Chuans or Yang Lu Chans. In other words, while Dong Hai-Chuan may have been able to understand the myraid of energies of baguazhang directly out of the circlewalking - I cannot. I suppose, simply put - I'm a bit of an idiot. I need it spelled out for me. The old masters realized there'd be alot of people like me studying their arts, and so they made an endless progression of practices designed to do just that - many of them quite 'hands on.'

When I hear so many people talking about how they can realize the total potential of taijiquan only through the long form, or the total potential of baguazhang only through circlewalking, without ever having touched anything else; I do not doubt their claims, but rather I think to myself how lucky we are to have such an abundance of practitioners of Dong Hai-Chuan's and Yang Lu Chan's skill among us.

[Zantesuken]

then again this is the westernization of martial arts. a lot of people say that they want to be 'street ready' and yes a lot of ma does offer that however.

street ready then why do you take an internal ma? chi cultivation also happens in external styles like hung gar, karate, and can happen in wing chun. i agree that you won't use fancy techniques because you aren't at the level yet. neither am i and i wouldn't intend to. that's why styles like wing chun and karate are popular. because they offer efficient ways without resorting to your eye gouges and stuff. i would say that yes in normal street fights it's not fancy but then again... tai chi does train you to move unclumsily with your eye gouges and the sort. it also conditions your body sorta like an external art would.

many people here practise for different reasons. to say that real street situations are so an dso is correct but then again you can't say that the applied ma in a street situation is really like that. how do you know? are you at a very high level? i'm sure the difference between the intermediate level and high level use on the street is very very different. if so many people here have faced these situations then why are they doing tc? just take an external style and take tc as a side benefit. the external style prepares you for street faster, and in a much much shorter time. If it will take you 10-20 years to progress a bit in tc then why waste it? You're training 10-20 years for an event that happened in the past. Whereas taking an external style you'll train 2-5 years and be able to use it. Don't get me wrong i think that training for that tc is good but if it's self defense you are seeking then tc is not the choice since you WANT skill in a SHORT time because you never know when india racists come out again

[taijiquan_student]

I'm not sure what kind of taiji you're talking about, Zantesuken. If after three years of taiji practice you don't have something you can use with a solid skill level and understanding (not master level of course, just know how to use it well) then you're doing something wrong in your practice. This is what William Chen said once, and I think it is very true. If it takes 10-20 years to prgress just A BIT, then maybe something is lacking.

[Chris McKinley]

Zantesuken,

After I stopped chuckling, I realized how much your post accurately reflects the sorry state of affairs with which people regard the internal arts in the U.S. these days. RE: "street ready then why do you take an internal ma?". The skills I've learned and taught in the internal arts are some of the most street viable stuff out there. If you don't understand what I'm talking about here then either you haven't stuck around long enough yet or you may need to find a different instructor who can show you these things.

RE: "chi cultivation also happens in external styles like hung gar, karate, and can happen in wing chun.". This is merely puzzling. How exactly does this statement relate to the conversation at hand?

RE: "i agree that you won't use fancy techniques because you aren't at the level yet.". Speak only for yourself, junior. I'm capable of using much fancier techniques than I would ever choose to use in a real street situation. When it comes to the real deal, using that which is at the envelope of your abilities isn't wise. Using that which is both simpler and well within your abilities is.

RE: "to say that real street situations are so an dso is correct but then again you can't say that the applied ma in a street situation is really like that. how do you know?". Numerous examples of firsthand experience, that's how.

RE: "are you at a very high level? i'm sure the difference between the intermediate level and high level use on the street is very very different.". Not really. The major difference is how often they can pull something off successfully and how familiar they are and prepared to deal with the things that can go wrong with a given application. As for being high level, it all depends on compared to whom? With 20 years of neijia training under my belt, it would be falsely modest to go around saying, "I'm only a beginner" to people who don't understand the context of the statement. Yet I'm many years (thankfully) away from reaching my peak.

RE: "if so many people here have faced these situations then why are they doing tc?". Stick around for a few more years and maybe you'll learn for yourself why someone with real fighting experience would choose to study Taijiquan instead of one of the external arts you mentioned.

RE: "If it will take you 10-20 years to progress a bit in tc then why waste it?". Who says you're wasting it? After that time, you'll either be 10-20 years better or you won't, but the time still passes by. Obviously, you didn't read my point in the post earlier about developing a desire to refine basic skills and to move beyond them.

RE: "Don't get me wrong i think that training for that tc is good but if it's self defense you are seeking then tc is not the choice since you WANT skill in a SHORT time because you never know when india racists come out again". I've already addressed this, but what you're not seeing is the following:

Let's say you begin training with real self-defense skills as your highest priority. You study a style, probably external, that is known for having a short learning curve...a quick turnaround on investment...say, Wing Chun, Kenpo, Kali, or Muay Thai. You study it long enough to gain some basic self-defense skills, let's take your suggestion of 2-5 years. After 5 years go by, you find yourself no longer satisfied with these basic skills and wanting to refine your abilities further. So you begin a study of Taijiquan or some other internal art. Let's say another ten years go by. During this ten years, you have still had your basic street self-defense skills available to you in case you are jumped. However, thanks to 10 years of Taijiquan training, you are now far more skilled in applying your self-defense skills, having learned about real power generation, listening to an opponent's energy, etc. In fact, you find yourself able to actually reduce the damage you previously needed to do in order to deal with the same level of opponent. For example, instead of elbow-smashing him across the throat, you now have the option of avoiding his energy and harmlessly projecting him off to the side while you escape.

If things get really rough, you still have the full scope of brutality available to you from your prior self-defense training, now made even more nasty by the addition of internal power. But you also have the choice of being less destructive and still be able to handle the situation.

Adding an internal art to your study can not only make your nastiest stuff even more destructive, it also gives you the option of being LESS damaging. In that sense, it might even be considered an ethical choice.

I agree with you about acquiring no-frills dependable self-defense skills first. Advanced internal development is no good if you're not around to experience it. But after you've acquired those skills, you may find yourself wanting more. And that's where the neijia are made to order.

[Internal Boxer]

Zan

Like Braden said we are not all Yang-Lu-Chans, do you honestly think you will ever get to his level??

In feudal China they had no Police for to protect you, you had to protect yourself through survival. The younger practioners in the Yang family during fedual China did not just do push hands, their techniques and training was quite brutal, they had to develop the fighting skills quick cause they could not afford to wait 20 years, they had to develop Ming Ching or obvious energy. While this is not chi driven the internal was cultivated alongside.

The problem is a lot of practioners concenrate on the long term mystical without trying to develop a level of competence now. Searching the far instead of concentrating on the near.

So Zan it may be a good Idea to look outside your immediate teacher and perhaps seek someone with a different take on things, that is not to say there is anything wrong with your teacher, but if you meet others with a different outlook, in real life instead from a computer screen it may open your eyes or it may not.

(Oh if you do not belive that Ming Ching was the first bridge that practioners crossed then speak to Instructors like David Nicholson, Park Narm Bok, Jim Uglow, Erle Montaigue)

Regardless of this like I said before MY TRUTH IS NOT YOUR TRUTH!

[Chris McKinley]

Internal Boxer,

Thanks for the kudos. Your description of ming jing and Yang family training is a much more concise and to-the-point version of what Braden and I were alluding/referring to earlier.

Also, much as it may sting to hear, your point about seeking the far mystical to the exclusion of the near practical I felt was dead accurate. It characterizes the problem I've seen with most Taiji people here in the States. They are drawn by the depth of the art but seem to have no desire to learn how to actually swim in the shallow end first.

To all,

let's not forget these arts are Taoist in nature, folks. It's about that balance. Sure, it's great to learn real softness that comes from a center that responds to the flow of the Tao. But let's not forget, "being very soft and pliable leads to being extremely hard and strong", or "exercising internal power is like refining metal into purest steel. Then nothing can not be destroyed". The softness the Classics refer to is not about becoming "cotton wrapped in cotton". It's about developing the ability to attain and maintain a very sensitive dynamic equilibrium such that the slightest force sets you moving. After all, even water isn't ALWAYS soft.

[Braden]

Zant - I'm not sure where these ideas of 'fancy techniques' let alone 'relying on eye gouges' came into your head. This is certainly not the internal arts that I have been introduced to.

If we look at the old myths, we hear things like 'Cheng Ting Hua defeated every challenger using only single pounding palm.' While this is probably not true, I believe it conveys an important message about where your skills are coming from, and where they are going.

As for the the learning curve of the internal arts - I would not deny this, nor would I ever claim to be anywhere close to being able to represent the art I study, in even the most limited capacity. That said, I clearly recognized gains after my very first serious training session in the internal arts - in rootedness and responsiveness. While there is a popular image in our culture of martial arts being equated to a collection of powerful striking and grappling techniques; I am not personally convinced that short-term technical prowess in that regard is going to be more useful in a serious self-defense situation than short-term prowess in power and responsiveness found in the internal arts. In other words, while the internal arts are certainly full of long-term goals, I do not think we can so easily discard the lessons we gain from them immediately.

[Zantesuken]

SOMEONE said EYE GOUGES NOT ME!
and the 20 years thing is only sorta of a mindset. sorta like if it takes you 20 years to progress just a bit then you better work REALLY hard now.

i dunno chris. If that's how you see it then that's the way you think. it's not correct though and neither is mine. Yes i know tc is good over other external styles but i'm saying conventially if you want to train just to fight then external styles offer more int he way of that.

i personally don't practise for the combat part. i have no reason to fight and nobody to fight. to take that i study other things for fun. tai chi does have some applications in the external stuff when sifu's not looking but other than that bleh. 20 years of neija blah blah okay good fo ryou. so you've gotten 20 years under your belt so obviously you've gotten somewhere. i've gotten....6 so -14 years who knows. you never know.

and if you decide to use what is in your abilities then are you really progressing? if it was just a regular brawl i would probably try and push and test out new things rather than sticking to what i know. not only is it super funky if it works the other guy will belike what the hell?

so i guess your 20 years have developed your thoughts a certain way. but then again your way is your way and everyone else's way is their own :0

and to taijiquan_student. you took that too literally. jeez no wonder you people are so uptight. if i told you in chinese you would understand

[Chris McKinley]

Wow. Most of this post is either scattered or almost pointlessly vague. I disagree that external styles have more to offer for real combat. We'll just have to leave it at that for now.

Admitting you don't practice to acquire combat skill sheds quite a bit of light on the perspective of your posts. As for Taiji having "applications in the external stuff when sifu's not looking...", this statement is just cryptic. Are you equating external with having fighting applications and internal as not? If so, where the heck did you get that idea?

I notice you're still in the habit of throwing in the random nonsense word "bleh" whenever you feel like typing but don't have anything particular to say. It makes your posts just that much more difficult to add meaning to.

As for getting into a brawl and trying new things, this sounds like the aspiration of a neophyte with glorious images of Hollywood combat. As for me, I'm not even remotely interested in looking "superfunky" while defending myself or my loved ones, nor is my objective to get the other guy to be impressed enough to say "what the hell?".

RE: "jeez no wonder you people are so uptight. if i told you in chinese you would understand.". Perhaps we might also understand if you simply learned to tell us correctly in English. Your racial/cultural bigotry here is once again a bit too thinly veiled.

[Zantesuken]

it's not bigatory sir. you know it to. if it were in chinese there are several different meanings. english is still more linear but very expressive. a lot of stuff said in chinese can be contradictory one way or another.

well i guess you won' thave the interest but WHAT. I never said internal has no fighting application!!!!

and i do practise with the combat intent but it's only around 60% of the motivation. i'm not training to defend myself i'm training to i can be at the level of others i've met.

the only thing i meant by uptight here is that everyone seems to post so seriously with proper english, grammar, etc.. i was just wondering why doesn't everybody loosen up cause nobody's got to prove themselves here...just give some input and so on

[Chris McKinley]

Why does expressing ourselves without something to prove require that we use improper grammar? Additionally, some here do take our study seriously and so it shows in our posts. Perhaps some of that also comes from a desire to provide an oasis of useful information exchanged respectfully, especially when compared to the main forum. There's plenty of trolling, poor grammar and hip-hop slang to be found there if that's what you're wanting.

Perhaps the seriousness of the tone of the posts is also a function of the topic. Most of us in here can be completely silly at times, but we also know how to talk seriously about a serious topic when one arises. Please don't feel pressured or intimidated by the correct use of English grammar. I'm sure your English is light years ahead of most of our Chinese. Also, don't be afraid to ask for assistance in expressing something in English; we'll be happy to help if we can.

[Zantesuken]

no actually haha english was my first language so it's also lightyears ahead of my chinese. i learnt them both at the same time but for most ma, ima, all that stuff i learned them in chinese. the only system i ever learned in english was wing chun so yeah.
chinese isn't that hard to speak but to understand written text like tai chi classics in chinese is a pain

[Internal Boxer]

Zan

While I understand what you are trying to say, the one thing that becomes so clear in your posts is that you have not been in any situations where your existence has been threatened.

If you had been then you would not be writing in this way.

Its not your fault you are inexperienced but you need to listen to others who have been in those situations and can offer insight that you are lacking.

It seems you are too keen on saying what Taiji fighting is all about without any experience of fighting, therefore you cannot talk about something you personally have no experience in would you not agree - do you not think this is a logical approach?

If you have not applied anything in a real fight then you cannot offer opinions as they have no basis.

Having said all this I still realise there is no convincing you. If the opinion of your teacher is the same as yours then this may be a case of the blind leading the blind. I have not met you a or your Sifu so I cannot comment on your ability or your Sifu's ability, but If you or your teacher happen to travel to the UK I would be very very very keen to meet your Sifu.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings.. <respectful bows to all>

It has been my experience that Tai Chi is a Life skill, an art for living.. Certainly combat and conflict are aspects associated with living, but.. they are not the only aspects.. Perhaps we focus too narrowly at times.. That being said, whenever a new student asserts that they only want the health benefits of Tai Chi, i point out that surviving a real-life assault is high on my health list..

Although i have only 12 years in the study of Tai Chi, i have immersed myself in the research and study of associated philosophies, meditations, disciplines, and.. yes, realistic applications in both training and, on 4 occasions, real situations.. One of the most notable aspects of Tai Chi, and there are many, is the ability to control a situation rather than dominate it. Even today my ego still wants to dominate a conflict, but my training is becoming my ego's master.. (whew!! its not easy).. When the fight is the focus, is the goal.. surely you will find your way there. But when managing your life with grace, insight, and awareness becomes the goal, the process absorbs you, not you absorbing the process.. Tai Chi has become my personal vehicle for that journey.. its reliable, it goes anywhere (is applicable in all of life's situations), it has a following of absolutely endearing personalities.. and, gets unbelievable mileage.. :)

Indeed, we have gotten off the topic, but.. isn't that the nature of the Art.. its fluid, adaptable, and responds to the slightest touch? Can one develop true martial skills from solo practice? Of course. To deny that simple assertion is to place boundaries on the Art itself.. and, i for one have learned that Tai Chi has no boundaries unless we put them there.. Now, to train solo and expect to trash every opponent you encounter is, perhaps, unrealistic.. but, to survive a conflict without such training is less realistic.. There are a multitude of disciplines offering a myriad of ways to develop combat prowess... I hope that we have chosen Tai Chi because, aside from combat readiness, it is a living art, a system of healthy living.. When ALL aspects of your life are in harmony conflict is as managable as your checkbook.. (oops, that could be a poor example :) )

As each of us choose our paths, we would hope that our brothers and sisters would respect that choice.. Where i would choose to enhance as much of my life through Tai Chi as i can, i do also respect my brothers and sisters that focus entirely on conflict management.. (its a tough and sometimes lonely path, but, obviously a self-rewarding one)..

Just more thoughts from the Far-side.. be well..

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Well, this has taken off hasn't it?

Going back a page, Hi Chris, in regards to the fear inherent in a live attack; I was implying that given the uncertainty of real threats to life, the more that you know yourself the more likely you will be able to connect and deal with the situation. I don't know that the experience of play fighting (to cut sparring to its most banal level) is any better preparation for life or death situations than the internal work of knowing your own mind.

This leads into the other question about the training of emotional understanding (it was more general, thanks for not seeing it personally). How much does partner work further this undertsanding and in what ways does it hinder it?

Once again I'm not saying that free engagement isn't great training, and I'm not saying that I don't regularly cross-hands myself, but at what point does it keep us from going more internal and reinforce physical coping mechanisms? It is my opinion that it is possible to delay progress by focussing too much on partner work.

That being said, we are all different, and for some it may in the touch that their inspiration comes. I just don't know any examples myself.

[Sum Guye]

Here:

(jon)
“maybe you would like to share how you use your internals in a martial situation?”
*I spar trying to maintain the principles set by the internal arts… I still have alot of learning and experiencing to do. Mostly, I just enjoy learning- I’m not really stuck on being the toughest guy I can be.

“Do you practice form?” *Yes. (and I know that forms alone can't instill some great martial prowess in my being)

“What are your views on using internal force in a real confrontation when the addrenalin is kicking?”
*my view is that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for someone who has merely done forms and chi-gung to use internal power (not force) in a real confrontation if they never spar.

“Can you spar using totaly internal arts or are you foced to mix and match?”
*I use what I know… when I pull off a good ‘internal’ throw (using little force) it feels great. But for now, I still find myself double weighted too often...and too often using too much force.

“ Can you still use internal arts whilst wearing gear?”
*whilst… I didn’t know that term was still in circulation. Yes, I can- it’s harder though.

“How do you find using internals vs heavy externals like Karate and Thai Boxing?”
*I haven’t gone against any heavy externals yet... although, many of the guys I study with had heavy external backgrounds- they're more stiff and easier to throw than others.

“How do you fare vs heavy grappling based styles?”
*I grapple weekly- but the guys I work with all study BJJ and are much better than I am. As a result, I’m good at ‘defending’ grappling styles- but not so hot at taking the offensive and submitting my opponent. But, if I brawl with joe blow and we hit the ground wrestling, I think I'll suffer less than he will.

“Yes:
Throw a punch into the air a thousand times and even if you hit nothing you have still learnt the punch. You can learn the mechanics to striking without actualy hitting anything, needless to say this is not a wise training method.
No:
To actualy fight USING your art requries you to be trainined very well in it and have a detailed knowledge of how to apply movement to differing physical situations. The skills involved in long range movements and tactics are very different to the ones imployed when hip to hip. To fully understand both you MUST have experience in actualy contact in them. But this is as i say where our problem lies, you can learn to hit and learn to move without touching a thing. learning to actualy get those hits in though... thats another matter."

"Do you believe you are too deadly to spar?"
* Bah, if only I love to cross hands and i love the feel of exchanging forces with a skilled practioner. However i would not like to spend all my time fighting in NHB events i prefer my partners to NOT be trying to actualy kill me and if i make a mistake i dont want to be put out of action for 6 months. I fight to learn not to prove points.”
------------now THAT was the type of dialog I’d hoped for on this thread. (so far, you’re one of the only folks who addressed my statements… and so far, I agree with you whole-heartedly).

“I spend my time in total ammazment at the way many seem to believe there chi will fight for them or the world will freeze frame in time for them to apply there various dim mak strikes as well.”
*Me too…. That’s why I started this thread, to see if any of ‘them’ could give a logical explanation… but, nope, not yet.



Zantuskan's grandmother
“she's done it for 18 years straight and never ONCE used it in a fight but i still can't push her over, my fist bounces off her chest (not boobs you sickos) and her dan tien, i can't push her over(already said) and yeah and she only practised the forms and excercises. so don't tell me it's not possible without the martial application”
*let me spar with her for 2 minutes… I bet I can push her over.



CDLee:
“Please explain why real internalists do not tuck their butts.”
*Because they do not want their power, mobility, and alignment compromised. Tucking the butt mucks up all of those.

[Zantesuken]

Really? she doesn't do it anymore but once i sawher take on a 6'2 240lbs guy and she didn't budge. pretty cool stuff. but that wasn't the point. someon said that simply practising the form won't get you anywhere but that's allshe did.

and don't get so ****y. You're not the tallest mountain in the range. It would be pretty sad if you couldn't push her over.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Believe it or not there are some people that arent really interested in fighting or proving ones worth. If you have to justify your training by putting it to the test then you are simply doing it for to make your training not seem so empty , but I know a lot of people that would rather study or train for their other reasons (which every one has a different one) and it's not always geared around violence or for mature revenge for being picked on as a kid or any other hang up you have that makes you now think so barbarically.

I have heard people on these boards say that if you cant fight your style is worthless or you need to cross train to improve your style becuse when it comes down to it you better be able to cut the mustard.

I find this funny becuse many people train all their lives and never become involved in a life threatening situation or a serious fight for that matter... does that mean that all the years spent have been wasted?

My teacher once told me that the lowest part of kung fu was fighting this is one step below animals.. at least they fight for survival................

Chi huggers and butt tuckers? well I still dont know what that means but if it means that I have to fight to prove that why I train is worhty then hugg and tuck it is.

[Braden]

ED - I think it's unfortunate when anybody gets put down for the reasons for doing something. Everyone's reasons are their own, and they don't have to defend them. So long as they're being honest with themselves and everyone else, it's all good. What people here are reacting against, I think, is the lack of this kind of honesty.

On a similar note, it's just as unfortunate to see someone like you being slanderous towards people interested in fighting as it is to see the converse. There's no reason to claim nor believe that someone interested in fully exploring the martial aspect of their art has ego problems or developmental issues.

[Zantesuken]

ah it's alrite i guess. si hing says 'don't admit your good even if you are cause the moment you do, your progress stops'

[Chris McKinley]

Braden,

Thank you for bringing up the point about knocking the pursuit of fighting skill. While everyone's reasons for training are their own, I think it's vital that each person knows WHY they are training. Having that knowledge is the only way to be intellectually honest with yourself.

Frankly, I'm at once saddened and ashamed for the community that a desire to train for useable fighting skill even needs to be defended. There's a part of me that has to ask, "have we really become that much of a bunch of spineless, watered-down fops that we even question this pursuit?".

I've got a newsflash for those who feel the pursuit of real useable fighting skill is not only gauche but actually debased or reprehensible. I'll type slowly so you can understand...there is nothing inherently wrong with acquiring the ability to defend oneself, loved ones, or other innocents. It is not a less-noble pursuit. Especially since we appear to be living in an increasingly dangerous and unpredictable world. I, for one, resent the snotty arrogance of those who look down their noses at those who would train to be able to defend their own right to live peacefully. I wonder, have any of them ever had to use their skills to defend their own lives? Or better yet, the life of another? Because I have. And I dare say it just might change their haughty perspective if they're ever called to do the same.

I, too, am uninterested in pursuing the sporting applications of my arts, or any other format where they are used merely to serve my own ego. But not all who train for fighting skill do it for ego. Those who broadbrush us in that manner reflect poorly on themselves. I teach people skills to keep themselves, their wives, their husbands, and their babies safe, not to win barfights or trophies. If you don't like that, go put on your ruffly shirt and cry yourself to sleep on your lacy pillow. While you're at it, take your more-Tao-than-thou attitude and shove it up your lofty ass.

Now, maybe I'm joking with all of this and maybe I'm not. Hopefully, I've at least given some out there pause to think.

[Internal Boxer]

LOL superb

I sincerely wish there were more people like your self in the IMA. If anyone else feels the same as Chris, make your support known, and who knows maybe the IMA will actually be given the recognition it deserves as a quality fighting art. I often think the masters of the past must be turning in their graves given the "do not train to fight" attitude that is so endemic.

(Bangs head against brick wall) - sorry thats probably too much of a Yang expression for some of you.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It seems to me that our first responsibility is to the art itself.. Before i elected to train Tai Chi, i did my homework.. I understood that it was born of Martial Arts, that at its pinnacle it was THE Martial Art.. But, my homework also told me that to achieve THE martial art status, i would need perserverence, dedication, quality instruction and time, lots of it.. When new students begin i always tell them that Tai Chi is a martial art, that is its history AND its future.. My fear is that too many uninformed observers see the beauty of the movements and begin training based on aesthetics.. that too many teachers are willing to disguise the art as "healthy meditation" for the financial incentives, broadening the misconception that Tai Chi is not a martial art.. That too many of these uninformed students will someday teach their own classes with no clue of Tai Chi's potential.. Unless we insist that, regardless of motivation, the student at least be shown the martial applications (they need not assume the role of hard-core combatant), the art is destined to decline..

Whenever a student insists that they are "peaceful and health conscious" only.. first, i inform them that there is nothing "healthy" about peacefully getting your butt stomped.. second, that if they truly have no interest in the martial aspect of Tai Chi they might consider Yoga or some other discipline more suited to their desires.. Tai Chi is like a table, it needs at least three legs to stand-up.. 1) the dance, the choreography, the form itself.. 2)the philosophy, with its own many sub-categories (ie: QiGong, meditation, etc..).. 3)application, the practical use of the art.

Application.. the practice of listening & sticking, developing those skills through contact, not imagination.. we must be pragmatic, just because someone "says" it works, "don't make it so".. to fully realize the potential we must, at some point, test its claims and develop the skills to make those claims valid.. ( i didn't learn to surf by walking around on my surfboard in my living room).. Contact is essential, this contact is not just combative, it is equally healing.. depending on the situation and our "intention".. I sincerely try to illustrate to my students (and to myself) how Tai Chi can manifest itself in every aspect of our lives.. from the way we navigate a crowded room, to the delicate handling of priceless artifacts, to the control of a combative situation.. (sometimes i think i don't study the art, the art studies me.. :) ).. I tell my students that Tai Chi is not "this or that", it is ALL things.. ( i should probably tell them that is a distant realization requiring much discipline.. hmmm? )..

That someone chooses to focus on any limited aspect of Tai Chi is not of itself to be poo-pood.. that someone may have instructed them that there is "only" that aspect of Tai Chi that has merit, that is the real danger to the survival of Tai Chi as it was intended.. That we can ADD to the art is a good thing, it is a living art, it needs attention and nourishment.. BUT, to take away from the art, from its history, its lineage.. no good can come from that..

Be well ("pay no attention to the man behind the curtain")

[Chris McKinley]

bamboo leaf,

RE: "For those seeking to understand and aquire skills first you know, the chi huggers and butt tuckers why is it that they become the object of scorn by the killer fa-jing death touch TC people?". Hmm...I think I may be about to confuse the leaf just a bit. You see, I'm a chi-hugger and a butt-tucker (among other neigong predilections) myself. In fact, I've only met a handful of internal arts practitioners in 20 years who have done more energy work experimentation and development than I have. I haven't mentioned much of it in these types of threads simply because that's not the side of my practice that needs defending most of the time. I would suggest that maybe you might re-read some of the posts and notice if it might not be the "killer fa-jing death touch TC people" deriding the chi-hugging and the butt-tucking (wow, this thread's gonna have a strange glossary), but rather yet another faction, namely, the "qi doesn't exist; I'm only interested in good mechanics and NHB-oriented training" crowd.

You see, being a killer fa-jing death touch TC person myself, I'll be the first to tell you that without qi, some of my methods wouldn't have anything to operate on. And without neigong, I wouldn't be able to resist/neutralize certain of these types of attacks, whether intentional or not. I certainly wouldn't be able to perform any of the external qigong healing methods that I like.

RE: " But if you say that you play something like TC and still have some basic fundamental flaws in your practice fighting with people or sparring will not help you improve this.". I'm in total agreement here. My opinion is that the whole thing has become a bit too polarized. Jumping back and forth between the completely Yin solo practice for nuance correction and the Yang-heavy practice of full-contact free-form sparring won't get you very far. There's still quite a bit of training possible in between these two ends of the spectrum that most people seem not to take advantage of.

RE: " I can say the opposite is true at lest in my experience with people, continued sparring will have a degrading effect on your ability to develop any higher-level skills.". I'm in conditional agreement here. Sparring, touching hands, trading energies, etc. will not IN AND OF ITSELF prevent the development of high-level skills. However, repeatedly "wiring in" bad habits and substandard performance through sparring can, especially if regular solo practice corrections aren't included.

RE: " People keep looking at the past masters and noted exponents as examples, but they for get to mention the level of skill acquired before going out and testing their understanding.
For the most part this was not acquired through fighting.
". Agreed. But what's missing from consideration in this statement is the regular two-person interactive training that was included right from the beginning of training for these past masters in addition to solo forms practice.

[Kempo Guy]

I agree whole-heartedly with Chris M. and TaiChi Bob!

Just wanted to say that although many people may be learning Tai Ji for their own reasons such as health, meditation etc it is ultimately a MARTIAL art.

Bamboo Leaf,
FWIW, in regards to Sum Guye's comment on double weighting, I think he's referring to the double-weighting between himself and his opponent, not on the weight distribution of his stance.... which means it would be pretty difficult to work on solo... but I'm sure Sum Guye can defend himself... :)


As a final note, I thought I'd share a story that occured a few Saturdays ago since it fits with what we are talking about in this thread. There was an individual that came to our practice session to watch our class (It's held in a park so many people watch us train). This guy apparently had some Tai Ji and Aikido experience so my teacher invited this person to join in the practice. After our session, we were talking about applications of the form and this individual asked what the first movement in the form "meant". So, my teacher proceeds to show him a simple application and drops him. He responds by saying "wow, that's painful..." and my teacher replied "of course, Tai Ji is for fighting". Oh, by the way he never showed again...
:D

KG

[bamboo_ leaf]

“FWIW, in regards to Sum Guye's comment on double weighting, I think he's referring to the double-weighting between himself and his opponent, not on the weight distribution of his stance.... which means it would be pretty difficult to work on solo”

no defense needed my comment was a simple observation. As are all things that I post.

This is exactly what I was talking about. To long to really explain it, suffice to say that in my experience all the things wrong with usage can be worked on and directly corrected using the form. This is why it is very important to have a firm understanding first.
and a good teacher to guide and correct our practice :)

Chris and the others have been training and working out for awhile 20+yrs I started my CMA in the early 70s. I don’t claim any special skill or ability, i can see that i have a slightly differnt prespective based on my exprinces. I do enjoy good conversations with people in person or on line such as those here. many things for thinking.

So maybe that guy didn’t come back because he felt your teacher used to much force in his practice, could this be it?

[Kempo Guy]

Bamboo Leaf,

I hope you didn't take offense to my post... That was not my intention. I understand what you are trying to say and can appreciate the fact that you should look back at your form for any problems that may occur during push-hands or free fighting.
This is what I have been taught as well ...

As for the guy not returning... well, I can honestly say that my teacher did not use a lot of force. He did much the same thing to me when I asked him the same question and he dropped me with a fairly light "touch". It's not like he slammed me down, but I went to the ground in a hurry as it was painful...

My teacher always says to relax and use little force. Even in free fighting practice (which I have done very little of), he uses little movement and force.

All I was trying to say by relating the story was that my teacher feels Tai Ji is a martial art, nothing more, nothing less....
For people interested in health, he emphasizes Qi-Gong.

KG

[Rockwood]

Hello, interesting discussion in progress.

Sum Guye started it up by asking if anyone is fool enough to think that solo forms practice alone are going to give you fighting skills. I think that everyone would agree that this idea is absurd. That is why all Chinese martial arts include solo work, applications, sensitivity drills, choreographed two-person forms and free sparring. I have been lucky enough to do a little of those things.

I got done sparring one guy full contact one night. I hit him a lot of times. When it was over I said to myself, Why the f did I even bother? I wasn't sticking to any principles, I was just bigger so I won. I have come to this conclusion virtually every time I have sparred full contact with my Muay Thai or kungfu friends. Essentially, all out sparring does not develop skill. The way one develops skill is to work a specific skill while they are practicing whether it is one or two person training. In other words, mindlessly doing a form is as useless as mindlessly trying to beat someone in a sport fighting match. To "work" a form you have to choose some element of it to focus on and "work" that element, concentrating, training it as best you are able. Then train another aspect the next day. Same goes for fighting. In my friends Muay Thai class they say, "Ok, you use only knees, you use only kicks," etc, so that they can work on some aspect of the skill. Its not mindless. Its not competitive. There is resistance, but there are as many rules involved as a two person choreographed set. You can add resistence to two-man sets if you wish as well. It all depends on what you want to train that day.

So where do you draw the line? What is the difference between a two-man set and a sparring match that is working some specific skill? To me there is no difference in their function. They are just different in form and complimentary ways to improve your training. To me either one can add to skill, prefereably you get to do both.

When my brother went to Thailand he was shocked because at the camp he was at the sparring was slow motion, light contact, effeminate even! Yet in the ring, fighting for money, they fought brutally and with ferocity. This is because they need that $25 to send home to their starving family and parents. So they can't afford to "spar" all out unless there is money on the line, its too easy to get injured and lose their only income.

Would these Thai boxers be any less skilled if they never fought for money in the ring? I don't think so. Their years of "soft contact" training gave them the skill to survive the 10 minutes of fighting.

I ask the same of Chinese martial arts who don't enter the NHB ring. The training is what builds the skill, not the contest. The contest is where if you are that uneducated and unlucky you have to fight for survival.

If you are fighting just for the sake of fighting you will not improve your skill. If you are TRAINING a specific skill, it doesn't matter if it is two person or solo, your intelligence, understanding and dedication are the only variable.

Sincerely,

Jess O'Brien

[EARTH DRAGON]

Must you disagree with me on every post that I respond too?

just curious

It doesnt matter what board, what topic or what I said , but every post from you is a negitive comment about what I said.

Not that I expect you have to agree with anythingI say or that anybody says for that matter. But it kinda gives me the creeps.... your not a stalker that is secretly following me through cyber space to do harm to me are you? hmmmmmmmmmm

Sorry to get off topic everyone but i could not PM him, now back to the thread....

[Braden]

ED - I don't disagree with everything you say, and I don't reply or even read the vast majority of the threads you post on.

When you post calling people worse than animals and saying they must have psychological issues just because their opinion is different than yours, it is extraordinarily disrespectfull. I tried to voice my objection politely and logically. If I failed in either regard, I apologize.

BTW, my private messages are always enabled.

[EARTH DRAGON]

You dont have to apologize for anything, and basically my post was not to be taken seriously as I thought you would see that from the way it was worded.

I think you read into things a little too much at times thats all. and you and I do post on not only the same boards but the same threads as we have the same interests.

I didnt call anyone anything for their has to be a name attached to it for you to say that I called someone somthing er*@#@* otherwise it is a general statement.

I did not however say that people were worse than animals but it is true that animals fight for instinctive reasons, and some people fight for stupid ones. Do you not agree?

I also did not say that people have psychological issues just because their opinon is different than mine. What I said was that people sometimes feel the need to bully or prove things when they get older out of lack of love or the reverse of being picked on as a child. Do you not agree?

[Braden]

Hi ED; yes, I do agree. Don't worry, I did not take your post too seriously, and I hope you will return the favor. ;)

[CD Lee]

“Please explain why real internalists do not tuck their butts.”
*Because they do not want their power, mobility, and alignment compromised. Tucking the butt mucks up all of those.


Hmmm. Can't buy that one. The high level internalists I have known say just the opposite. As far as compromising alignment, the reason internals do tuck is to get their spine aligned straighter for more power and speed. It is called forming a 'ridgepole'.

[Zantesuken]

does that mean tuck as in sticking your pelvis out?

[CD Lee]

Zant:

When internal styles refer to 'tucking in your butt', they are referring to rolling the hips slightly forward, rather than letting your butt stick out or back. This straightens out the back a little. Also the head is lifted, further elongating the spine, creating good flow, but it also is very structurally strong, especially when moving forward. In this position, the power from your legs can be transmitted into your upper limbs very effectively.

Not to mention, this is GREAT for your posture and back.

[Sum Guye]

Granted 'some' internal practitioners teach to tuck the butt under-
but if you check out photos of good fighters (internal or external,
current or historical) you'll see that they don't 'tuck' under.

and it isn't "great for posture" at all.

The internal fighters I know (especially one who is fluent in Chinese and reads ancient Chinese) say the internal arts say to let the butt hang naturally. The butt shouldn't be sticking out or sticking under... it should hang naturally. Tucking under diminishes power, flulidity of movement and the flow of energy.

[Kempo Guy]

My teacher has also told me not to force the tucking of your butt. He always tells us to have a natural posture and that by bending your knees slightly you achieve the desired posture. (Although I'm still new at this so this may just be a correction specifically for me...)

KG

[CD Lee]

In Xing Yi Nei Gong, one of the great Xingyi texts in the lineage of Wang Ji Wu, it also says not to force the tuck with muscular tension. This is counterproductive. Some people force this position, which is bad, but it is easy enough to bring your rear into alignment without using a lot of tension.

[Sum Guye]

CDLee,

I'm glad you brought up "Xing Yi Nei Gong" my teacher and friend,
Tim Cartmel, translated that book (he is the one I refered to above as being fluent in Chinese, ancient and modern). He teaches to keep the 'natural' posistion- as did Wang Ji Wu.

You're right, tucking with any tension is incorrect and counter productive to power and posture. Some one who tucks their butt is what I called a 'butt-tucker' at the begining of this thread.

(look closely at the photos of Wang Ji Wu.. he has an Asian butt
not a 'tucked butt').

[Zantesuken]

PHEW cause i was thinking why would tai chi try to push out the pelvis like wing chun if you wanted to 'sink'!!!

[CD Lee]

Sum Guye

Ok. With that understanding we can agree. Actually, that book helped my standing post and San Ti a lot. Not too many pictures but great information on how to stand and think.

You said Tim was your teacher. What are you learning from him out of curiosity? Also, if you are learning from him, do you do the excersices recommended in thier system?

[Chris McKinley]

Just as a point of clarity...what internal artists refer to sincerely, and what has humorously been labelled as "butt tucking" in this thread, are not the same thing. Good internal posture includes neither letting the butt stick out by rolling the hips backward nor tucking the butt under by rolling the hips forward. The ideal is actually quite common sense, really. It includes vertical alignment of the Hui Yin (CV-1) and Bai Hui (GV-20) points. It just so happens that this occurs naturally if correct spine alignment and posture are achieved. No tucking. No sticking.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Perhaps, the reason "butt-tucking" is taught is to correct incorrect postures.. Many of the westerners (me included) developed poor postures is their young years, you know, that "cool" slouching posture.. Whenever we say a "natural" posture, often we must first repair a poorly developed unnatural posture.. just because when we relax we assume a certain posture doesn't, by definition, make that a natural posture.. just like those that breathe with their chest muscles instead of their abdominals, just because that is what they are used to doesn't make it "natural".. Much of the early training for students is reshaping their concepts of "natural".. before good Tai Chi technique can be executed, you must have the correct "frame"..

I have been taught (and so i also teach) that the shoulders, hips, and ankles should be in vertical alignment when viewed from the side in a Wuji stance.. that the back should be perpendicular to the ground ( actually, aligned with the pull of gravity to minimize unbalanced pull).. this is a neutral position, allowing movement and response in any direction.. The back is treated as the axis/axle around which we rotate our energies.. if this axle is leaning or bent, rotation will wobble or require extra effort to maintain.. to afford the straightest axle with the minimum effort, a slight rotation forward of the hips seems to do the job nicely..

Have you ever been standing too long and had that ugly low-back pain remind you of poor posturing habits?.. try rotating your hips forward and slightly up.. almost invariably the pain is dissipated as you equally distribute the pull of gravity along the spine and open the Ming-men releasing the tension stored there.. This simple exercise is evidence that the spine should be aligned with the pull of gravity.. common-sense... The "S" shape of the spine is constantly compressed by the pull of gravity, putting unequal tension at the extremes of the curves.. the more we refine our stances to straighten and elongate the spine, the more we minimize the tension and associated pain..

"Butt-tucking", from my experience is not so much an issue of form, as an issue of correcting poor frames so that the form itself will be more correctly expressed..

just another perspective from the Far-side.. be well, all..

[CD Lee]

Well said TaiChiBob. While I agree that it should be natural, I am one who had very bad posture when I started. If you could see me in Wuji my first time, you would laugh. My lower back was definately curved outward by years of bad habit, which also made my stomach stick out, which added yet more stress to my lower back.

It turns out that I had bad lower back pain which is one reason I took up Xingyi. Within one month my back was pain free. I realize that this pain was due to sitting in a horrible position at work, and horrible standing and walking posture. I suddenly became aware of my body after lot of standing post.

I also made a concious effort to roll in the hips to straighten the back, but after a lot of work on this, I realized that there were three positions. One is back, the other is neutral or straight, and the third is rolled forward or under, as Chris McKinnley stated. The difference to me, was that to get to neutral at first, I had to roll forward. You are correct, this put me in the natural position, but I had to learn it. Now if I go too far under, I feel it immediately in my upper thighs as the alignment goes out of kilter. So I have come finally to this natural tuck, as Xing Yi Nei Gong recommends, without muscular tension to hold it in place.

[Sum Guye]

Yep, Tim is my teacher. Mainly I study Sun style BaGua from him.
He taught me Yi Chuan- I've picked up a bit of Xing-Yi, Brazillian Jui Jitsu and Tai Ji as well as some Goa Bagua and Yin Fu Bagua.

He's great! Have you been to his site Shenwu.com yet?

[CD Lee]

That is pretty cool Sum Guye. I have not been to that web site, but thanks for the invite. I will check it out.

So, I am curious, is Tim really big on those 16 exercises in the book, as the book puts a lot of stress on those as being really good for you.

[Sum Guye]

Tim's classes begin with various excersises. I'd have to get the book (I don't own a copy) to see which exact ones you're refering too. In 4 years I've done lots of sets of excercises and he seems to be 'big' on them all.