Shuai Chiao Throws

[Merryprankster]

Could somebody please outline say, oh, the first 5 throws you might be taught, how they are executed, and possibly link to some pictures.

I'm phenomenally bored and would love to learn something today. (I'm at work)

[Water Dragon]

I'll give you the first: Diagonal Cut

Very, very similar to O Soto Gari

To get the throw with no gi, you want to get a hold of either the crook of the elbow or just above the wrist bone. Thins is your natural handle.

First throw is break the balance and push. Second variation is the reap, but not Japanese style. Reap into a Karate style front stance, it gives the throw a different flavor. Make sura that at the end there is a straight line from the head to the heal. The reason for this becomes apparent once you get the throw. A good follow up is a simple soccer kick to the head. Have fun.

[Water Dragon]

Da.mn Dude, I tried to Privat you but you don't have it enabled. Go check out www.nhbgear.com if you're bored excellant BJJ/Judo mixed forum with some real players from each art.

[Merryprankster]

I'm not envisioning this.

Sorry about private being turned off, but it's a work system thing. :)

Ok. Assume I diagonal cut to my left, his right (ie, as if I were doing O-soto-gari.) Where does my left hand go. Where does my right? Do I break the balance to the back corner as if I were doing O-Soto?

[Brad Souders]

O Merry just go drill a rolling kneebar or flying armbar don't worry about those hard to get takedowns. :)

[Brad Souders]

http://judoinfo.com/animate.htm

[Water Dragon]

The left hand breaks just like O Soto Gari. You want your hand in the crook of his right elbow or around his right wrist. Play with this and you'll see what I mean about natural handles.

Your right hand cuts against his right shoulder, this is where you manioulate his center of balance.

The only difference in the actual reap is think about making a forward stance instead of reaping. It increases the velocity on the way down. You're kinda stretching him out more if that makes sense.

[Merryprankster]

I CAN'T...

Or I would. I work in a secure facility or I'd invite one of my training buds up here for a work out.

I don't like the flying armbar. I'm too butt heavy...

And just for the record, I have a FINE low sweep single to scoop finish. :)

[Water Dragon]

One more point. Your right leg "slams" back into a front stance so your left foot is forward. That's the reap.

[Merryprankster]

No, I completely understand.

In O-Soto-Gari, you break the balance to their back right corner and up with the sleeve grip on the left and the collar grip on the right by lifting up on the collar grip and driving to that corner. This loads their right leg and when you step behind and reap it, BOOM on their back.

You make sure you go into a front stance. As you push/pull on the left shoulder, by bringing your left foot forward into the front stance they fall over your right leg, yeah?

[Merryprankster]

How about set ups? Do you snap down to their front right corner then drive up and to the back right corner? Or do you push/pull on the left to torque the body and put their weight on the front right leg?

[Water Dragon]

OK, now we're getting closer. The break is a step in and of itself. Once you have the break, he's already thrown, he just doesn't know it yet. The right hand comes in almost at the same time as the break, but the breaking of the root isa the secret. You should be able to hold the guy off balance with your left hand once you have "stolen his center" The right hand is a atrike. Actually, it's more of dropping your weight into the guy through your forearm, but there's no way I can explain that one online.

You also step in a little deeper with your left foot than in Judo. It's behind his foot and off to the left about 6-8 inches.

You're correct in the reap except: The reap in not necesary to execution. The reap simply makes you go down that much faster.

[Merryprankster]

Water--my biggest problem is freezing that darn right foot to the mat. I can't seem to get the weight there. I guess that's what I'm trying to ask about.

You don't have to explain the fore-arm thing. I COMPLETELY understand that. Vital or there's not enough "oomph." Difference between a throw you can spin out of/defend and having your right leg completely immoble and then falling over it.

And the reap IS important under Judo rules---flat back=ippon and getting the guys feet off the ground is the best way to help ensure that :) Of course, as you mention, it is NOT vital to actually throwing the guy.

Yes--you'd have to step deeper to stretch him out. Narrower foot placement would facilitate a reap.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Water--my biggest problem is freezing that darn right foot to the mat. I can't seem to get the weight there. I guess that's what I'm trying to ask about.


OK. First got out of Judo mode. In Shuai Chiao, you want him on the ground, you don't care how. If the reap is there, take it if not, just punch him. You can get the throw real nicely provided you have him broken by cracking him with a horizontal elbow across the jaw. It's the concept, not the actual tech ;)

The breaking is the hard part, you just need to practice it a lot. No break, no throw. You can try stepping deeper. I CAN tell you that you want him set up like your going for an ankle pick, that's how it's gonna feel to him in his right foot.

[Merryprankster]

Got it.

And I use a snap down for that. Good. Now we're getting somewhere.

Trust me---I'm out of Judo mode. Never been in it :) This is rather apparent every time I randori with a 230 lb ex judoka named phil.... Or Rhadi.... Or Lloyd... Or a guy named Melvin :)

Do I want him to step with that right foot to lead him into it? Or is the trick to learn to do the throw without that help?

I once O-soto'd a guy who was going for a flying armbar. Not pretty :)

[Braden]

If I'm picturing this right, and it's characteristic of SC, then I can totally see the SC influence in Cheng Ting Hua's bagua. Man... I hope I live near a teacher of this stuff at some point.

[GGL]

We do have some throw examples that we slowed down on our website... its shuaichiao.org. Some are pretty basic and some are more indepth. We try to change them out once every 2 months. This may help you with visualizing some of the dynamics of the throws

Hope this helps

Greg

[Water Dragon]

Hey!!! I gotta get, I have BJJ in a half hour. Check this site out:

www.shuaichiao.org

Not my school, but they have some nice vid clips. Shoot me a private w/ your e-mail address. I have a Daigonal Cut variation on a vid clip so you can see what I'm talking about.

[SevenStar]

Rhino Gazes at the moon.

You set up your opponent with a "bump" as you turn into him, taking his balance and grabbing his arm at the wrist and crook of the elbow (since you turned into him, your back is to him.) You want bend your knees as you turn andmake sure that you step deep enough into him that your hips are against him, and maybe just below tan tien level - no doubt hip placement varies with height, but after playing with it, you'll easily know where you should be. Thrust your hips back into your opponent as you bend over, sending him head first to the ground. It's basically a shoulder throw.

[SevenStar]

yeah, go to that site and check out the throw alley.

[Merryprankster]

Yep, been there. :)

On the Cao (is that the spelling?) I was having trouble picturing going straight back like that. Is there a slight twist that brings them more over their own left leg?

[Merryprankster]

Seven--seoi nage:) Next :D

[SevenStar]

*disclaimer - I am new to shuai chiao - I'm manily a muay thai and longfist guy*

That being said, I believe there is a small twist, which is what that extended hand acclompishes. If you try to press straight back, your opponent can step out of the throw.

[Merryprankster]

Bingo Seven. That's what I thought too, but it was hard to tell from the vid.

I was trying to figure out earlier why he wasn't stepping back with the right, then I realized that the throwee was in the classic "toad takes a dump" pose, making it nigh impossible to step back :)

[SevenStar]

yeah, basically that shoulder throw is seoi nage. There's a lot of similarity between judo and shuai chiao.

[Merryprankster]

hey, flying mare in wrestling... six of one, half dozen of the other. Rhino gazes at the moon is a little more poetic :)

[SevenStar]

:D I gotta agree with that. Now kuntao, that's a totally different animal. Our system of shuai chiao also utilizes kuntao, which has stuff I've never seen in CMA or JMA

[Chang Style Novice]

Golden Hook Hangs Upside Down, from Ch'ang Taiji

Facing your opponent, reach with your right hand behind his neck, over the right shoulder. Grab his right arm with your left hand as in Water Dragon's description of Diagonal Cut (which for some reason is called Slanting Fly by my teacher - go fig.) If possible, hook your right hand under the opponents left armpit from behind, if not, grab some gi/jacket. With your right foot, reap forward and from right to left, simultaneously torquing your shoulders clockwise (this one takes a lot of abdominal strength and flexibility to do right). Opponent should now be flying 'forward' - ie, headfirst with his feet rising behind him - on your right side. Feeling mean? Hang onto the left arm as he falls and bring your right over to sink in the straight armbar.

[MonkeySlap Too]

The two rules of Shuai Chiao

1. No one knows how to spell Shuai Chiao (or Jiao or ....)

2. No one agrees upon the names of the forms in English. Even within the organization I belong to, there is variance - teacher preference I suppose. It really seems to come down to how you translate the Chinese. I have yet to hear a name that is just plain wrong, just translated differently.

[Chang Style Novice]

Monkeyslap -

Thanks for pointing that out about my shoelace. Lemme just bend over to retie it...

HEY!

What you do that for?:D

[Braden]

SCers - I like the 'clearing' (Cao?) entry to take the outside door; there's alot of moves like that in the bagua I'm learning. What are your experiences with it? Are there many other outside entries in SC / does SC work the outside much, in general?

[GGL]

SC teaches you to attack from every angle or door that you may come upon. One throw may work well if attacking from the front door, but it may not work as well attacking from a different angle. That is why you should have a complete understanding of most of the throws in their singular form... (I mean that combination of throws is a total differnt ball game:).. Let us also not forget that a throw may not end up with the opponent on the ground, but rather off balance.. so you can now utilize your punch kick combos to break him down or set up for a different throw....


Oh by the way... on throw alley.. the guy being thrown EVERY TIME is me :D

I was kinda sore after filming that:p

[EARTH DRAGON]

The First 5 throws of shaui chiao in our system that I teach are
1. Go
2. Swai
3. Ko
4. Bow
5. Ching
However I have posted a couple different ones that I like the best
which are Bung Tiao and Ma Bou Ti. But as you can see from other posts it is very hard to learn or even comprehend an expalination of movement without the fundamentles of motion x arch x movement. But Good luck in your leanring.

[GGL]

1. Cover step Tee
2. ripping or steal to Kwai
3. Knee seizing
4. Sharpening
5. Hip throw

As pointed out earlier.. some throws are the same, but called different based on the instructor

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, I saw the vid. I think your Sharpening is our Diagonal Cut.

[Merryprankster]

Oh, I don't plan to learn them, personally. Not right now anyway... I'm just more curious about the difference in execution. I'm interested in learning ABOUT them :)

[SevenStar]

As far as execution is concerned, I believe that many shuai chiao throws are executed faster than judo throws

[EARTH DRAGON]

Could you post them in chinese as I would be curious to see the throws are the same as our lineage. thanks