So what's the deal with Wah Lum?

[Lode Runner]

I don't mean to stir up trouble here, but I'm currently taking Tai Chi classes at a WL school here in Florida and I am intrigued enough by what I've read about Northern PM gongfu so far that I'm seriously considering enrolling once I can spare the extra time/money. However, I am curious to know what's behind these "issues" people have with wah lum. Before I came to this forum, the only difference I was aware of was that WL emphasized kicks much more so than the other northern PM systems. I get the distinct impression that some people think that there's more than just this, but sifting through these threads and trying to discern the "truth" is 1) taking way too much time and 2) giving me a headache.

So far I've come across five or so complaints:

1) it isn't a "real" northern system. the styles are so altered that they have more in common with southern PM (or some other system) than northern PM. I take this to mean that these people view WL as being less hard than other northern systems (which, along with the "blindingly fast hook-hands" is the trademark, or so I gather)... or is it just that the forms themselves are so different?

2) some rant about a lack of sparring. I suppose I could ask my Sifu about this one, but in the mean time I'd like to know how the official WL temple method of sparring differs from other styles.

3) politics. something about the style itself being more important than the students, and something about not being allowed to go to seminars.

4) too flashy. if the school has adequite sparring, I don't see this as much of a problem. I'll hopefully be able to figure out what moves are effective and what moves are not and only use these flashy moves to psyche someone out (which can be a very effective strategy, btw.)

5) something about certain "secrets" not being taught. If it's true, it sounds like a lot of BS to me.

Obviously everyone's impression of the system is different and obviously those people who practice it are going to defend against the above comments. However -- truthful or not -- I doubt that there would've been such a ruckus if WL wasn't different in some ways. Regardless of which style is better (which really is a pointless issue; I only care about which style is better for ME) I am interested in understanding these differences between WL and other Northern PM Styles and what other people have experienced in WL schools, both positive and negative.


Or if you want, you can just yell at me for being such a troll. :D

[EARTH DRAGON]

While I am no authority on Wam Lum, I would like to adress some of your concerns from my experience in 8 step.

1. It is a northern style.

2. Sparring is not always focused on due to the traps that students fall into when trying to spar. i.e Tagging, the you got me I got you scenerio. Not fully excecuting proper techniques, false sense of timming, tae kwon do type scenerio's to many to list,

3. politics, join the club, never been in a style or orginization that doesnt have them.

4. forms for show or for the general public are always more eye appealing then the true fighting forms. But dont mistake them for WuShu as others have said.

5. Always secrets, this is a must for any master or teacher, one must prove themselves before most higher levels techniques are taught. Just becuse you have enrolled and paid your money doenst get you into the "close door" catagory, this takes years of loyalty.

If you are learning direcly from master Chan Pui you are lucky and should remain where you are. It is not a general thing to train under a master of his caliber and you should understand that students come and go but if you stick it out for some years you will find that your perception and attitude will change......

[Lode Runner]

I'm not learning from Pui, although I don't live far from Orlando and the possibility of me someday moving there could definitely factor into my decision.
...
5. Secrets. Grrrr... if a form is useful to me then teach it. If I'm not ready then I'm not ready. IMO, there's no need for secrecy at, especially if what's being withheld is actual streetfighting applications (which was what someone else implied; I'm not saying it's true, though.)
...

I take it from you comments that are AREN'T any major differences between WL and the other northern PM styles? So what's the big deal, then?

[woliveri]

Earth Dragon.

I strongly dissagree with your position of #5. I've had too many personal experiences that contradict that statement but putting that aside you are implying that after years of loyality a student at WL will gain "indoor" status thus gaining the secret forms of WL. This is not true. The students on this board have made it clear that this is reserved for the daughter of MC. This is fine and ok. No problem here. Just to let Load Runner know up front that this will not happen.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Again I am not speaking of WL, for I do not know about his teaching methods. I am speaking about teachers /shrfu's in general.
My teacher has taught over 4,000 students in his time but only 13 of them have actually done what was asked of them and opened their own school to promote the system. After so many people have made promises and broken them shrfu was forced to be selective and keep the secrets to only those who warrant such information.
My shrfu has a son but unfortunatly he is not allowed to give his son the secrets and the system for the 4 generations of masters before him never had children so in 8 step this is forbidden. But ask your self this who would you give your most prize possession too?????? your son/ daughter or your non related student?

You may be famous amous's best freind, and you may sell 10,000 cookies for him each year but does that mean you should be entitled to the recipe?

[woliveri]

You may be famous amous's best freind, and you may sell 10,000 cookies for him each year but does that mean you should be entitled to the recipe?

No, but Famous Amous should have the balls to tell his best friend up front where the chips lie so Famous Amous's friend can make an intelligent decision about his own future. Whether he (the friend) wants to continue getting fish from FA or to seek out someone who is not afraid to teach him how to fish for himself.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Lode Runner
If you've been reading this forum you've probably seen my posts that addressed some of these issues.

1. Wah Lum Kung Fu is based on Northern Praying Mantis. Specifically Jut Sow Mantis. Wah Lum is a hybrid just like Wong Long's original Mantis was a hybrid composed of other styles. There is no Southern Mantis in Wah Lum. The Southern reference is due to the fact that we learn some Southern forms although not Southern Mantis forms. Lee Kwan Shan took the Jut Sow Mantis he learned in the north and combined it with his family style of Tam Tui. After creating Wah Lum it was primarily passed on in the south where he lived and taught. This was Master Chan's village and since he is the current GrandMaster he decided to add some of his family style (Mok Gar) to the system. There is ample opportunity to learn outside the curriculum. Since being with Wah Lum I've learned Plum Flower Mantis, Yin Chin, Choy Li Fut, Shaolin, Mok Gar and others.

2. I don't know what the other Wah Lum Sifus do at their schools but the Temple has a sparring class. This class is geared towards competition as there are some students who wish to compete. Self defense is done during normal class.

3. There's always politics. You can play or ignore, your choice. Master Chan restricts his students to approved seminars only. Again, your choice. I have seen students that also trained at other schools while training at the Temple. Master Chan is old fashioned and he believes you should only have one Sifu. He expects loyalty and if you aren't then you probably won't go very far in Wah Lum.

4. Some people feel Wah Lum forms lack applications. This is not true. Some of that comes from our show forms which are designed to showcase physical ability and for entertainment. Curriculum forms get down to business.

5. Secrets. Yes. You only learn what your mature (and sometimes loyal) enough to handle. I would never teach a beginner a potentially deadly move. It's just like handing a loaded gun to someone who never touched a gun before.

I believe most of the other Sifus would agree with what I said. Feel free to e-mail me or stop by the Temple and talk anytime.

[flem]

politics

of course there are politics in any system, but the bottom line is their effectiveness in dealing with the well being of the students, in WL's case they are concerned with the well being of the style. this is necessary and good only if what the system is about is for the betterment of people. if WL used the words on the alter as a guide, then it would all be good. but i do not believe that to be the case. the number one priority seems to be numbers, everything revolves around class size, even the curriculum and it's difficulty level. to me, if someone can't do a move then they stop learning at that point until they can. in the real world, if someone cannot pass general math they stay there until they can, they're not given a way around it and pushed on to algebra and so on- the whole emphasis on large numbers weakens the style, sure one can theorize that the percentages of good students will remain the same so that a larger number means more good students overall, but in the mean time satellite schools that are judged simlarly, get the perks simply if they have a large number of students. to me quality is more important than quantity, and concentrating on one negates the other..
so.... if i were to do it all again, WL i mean, i would go there to train, never aspiring to teach, or anything else, and go home- stay completely out of the "family"

[woliveri]

perfect response, flem. But would you not have access to certain forms or levels if you didn't go into the sifu program? That is, can a student who doesn't want to be a sifu reach the same level of training as the student who does go into the sifu program?

[NorthernMantis]

Yes they can.

[EARTH DRAGON]

The famous amous thing was just an example but unfortunaly it is very true.
You would think that people should behave and treat people the way that they want to be treated but that is quite rare. Fact is the only way to the secrets is the tradtional way that has been passed down for centuries, Hardly ever exceptions.
Just becuse people in todays world are used to paying for a service and getting what they paid for, this is not true at all in the MA , you can pay thousands and not learn anything worthwhile sad but true.
On the other hand you can meet someone that will trust you totally and give you everything and expect nothing in return.

But when you have information that is pricless what would be the reasons that you would give it away? money? fame? generosity? what?

[woliveri]

NM wrote: Yes they can.

I guess the million dollar question now is why become a sifu? What's the incentive? Very few satellite schools that I know of can operate full time and support the sifu financially. So it seems like a lot of work on the Sifu with little opportunity for making a buck.

[Joe Mantis]

Lode Runner,

Who's your Sifu?

[isol8d]

Wolveri-

Should teaching be about making money? If I understand the intent of the WL philosophy, teaching should be about preserving the CMA in todays world. I'm not at a point in my training where learning secrets are even an issue, so I might have a birds eye view on this.

If you had seen the Chinese Cultural Awareness Month & New Years parade through downtown Orlando, you might wonder how someone could not afford to make a living as a teacher. From my perspective, it was a Wah Lum parade with one or two other orginizations thrown in. I don't think the Wushu guys were in the parade, but they were at the ampitheatre afterwords, I guess to balance out the 4+ WL Schools there.

Lode Runner -

If you're already taking Tai Chi at some school, why not just look at the schedule and watch a class or two?

[woliveri]

Should teaching be about making money?

I don't know, just how much do you pay per month for your kung fu education?

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

That's so funny... sorry. So the main office works to pull in the bucks but the sifu's work to preserve WL?

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by woliveri
NM wrote: Yes they can.

I guess the million dollar question now is why become a sifu? What's the incentive? Very few satellite schools that I know of can operate full time and support the sifu financially. So it seems like a lot of work on the Sifu with little opportunity for making a buck.

Well to answer both of your questions it depends on the individual.Everyone has their own reasons but a good reason,IMHO,would be to promote kung fu and help other be more healthy and/or teach them self defence.Remember the student should benifit from the teacher not the other way around.I think helping others through kung fu is a noble idea.

:)

It's very true about keeping a school open.I've heard personally from many people to rethink if I should ever want to open up a school.The truth is I'm happy just being a student.Many students come and go and there's no way to garantee that the student will keep interersted.

[isol8d]

:p

Fair enough. How much do I spend? Too much it seems, between ripping my pants, grinding out my shoes, buying weapons, jow, etc... Not even counting the tuition.

But if you have a good accountant, and you pay enough in taxes, you can figure out how to not pay for any of it ;)

I know I could pay less or more for martial arts training in Orlando. There are a lot of schools, and we even have one the nations premier health clubs (RDV Sportscenter). Scaling against the price of a health club, I don't pay a lot. Scaling against the TKD class at the rec center by my house, I pay a lot. It's all perspective.

Then again, I can't imagine going to my sifu and saying "I don't think you should make a living doing this, so I'm not going to pay as much."

[Lode Runner]

Earth Dragon:
>You may be famous amous's best freind, and you may sell 10,000 cookies for him each year but does that mean you should be entitled to the recipe?<

Hua Lin Laoshi:
>5. Secrets. Yes. You only learn what your mature (and sometimes loyal) enough to handle. I would never teach a beginner a potentially deadly move. It's just like handing a loaded gun to someone who never touched a gun before.<

Neither of these analogies is applicable. I'm not talking about giving them the recipe or the gun; I'm talking about giving them the knowledge of the EXISTENCE of the recipe or gun. Of course I'm not advocating that you teach newbies advanced forms right away... I'm just saying that as a newbie, I want to know what I will eventually be learning.

However, woliveri says that this isn't applicable to WL except for Pui's daughter (lucky girl), so if no one cares to disagree with this statement I suppose we can let it drop.

>Lee Kwan Shan took the Jut Sow Mantis he learned in the north and combined it with his family style of Tam Tui. After creating Wah Lum it was primarily passed on in the south where he lived and taught. This was Master Chan's village and since he is the current GrandMaster he decided to add some of his family style (Mok Gar) to the system. <

But -- assuming there are any -- what are the fundamental differences? Does the introduction of these styles make wah lum harder or softer or more internal or more external or more circular or more linear? Does it make it more or less effective at short range vs. long range? etc.

>Lode Runner,

Who's your Sifu?<

Harry Lo. His website: http://www.wahlumkungfu.com/

I haven't researched his lineage, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that he is a 6th level dan.

Flem:

That is a very big concern you bring up, but my experiences tend to show otherwise. Considering the size of the classes, I've received a good amount of personal attention both from the Si-Jze's/Si-Hings and the Sifu.

Based on the replies so far, it seems to me like the only thing I should worry about is the political BS. I'm sorry, but if you ARE doing this to make money then you should treat it as such; a service rendered. What I do outside of class should be my own business and I certainly would not want to tie myself down to a single style if I do find out that I have a passion for MA. I always endevor to be respectful but my motives will always be cynical; I'm doing all of this for ME, not because I want to eventually become a Sifu myself and open up a school to continue the tradition. If I DID open up a school (hah) I would probably modify the style just as Pui did; I would want to teach based on what I have learned personally not copy what other people have merely told me is correct... but if I cannot study other styles then I have no method of judging other styles so I would have no recourse but to "continue the tradition" without making any actual contribution.

And I have a major problem with that.

[EARTH DRAGON]

You can what will eventually be taught but whats the rush?
I have many students that come in and ask questions about what lies ahead in 4 or 5 years and my reply is I will teach you in 4 or 5 years...... no reason to cloud their heads with things that they may never learn.
I have found that the more they think about what they will learn instead of what they should be concentrating on "The basics" the sooner they quit for they do not instill the patients that is neccesary to reach anything beyond begginer status.

And you want to know why secrets are held? you have answered your own question.........

As for Chan Pui's daughter inheriting the system you are correct... No non- chinese will ever inherit a chinese system... well I shoulnt say never but chances are slim to none....

P.S (dan) pronunced (don) refers to japanese degrees of ranking not chinese.....

[MiamiMantis]

Being the senior instructor for Wah Lum of Miami, I have been around since 1987 training under Sifu Shelly Huang. I think I've seen enough to put in my 2 cents....

Yes Wah Lum does have alot more kicks than other Northern Mantis systems.

Wah Lum does not have as many hooks and claws in the forms as say...Tai Chi Mantis or 7 Star, therefore it appears to be less Northern than other systems.

Also having forms in the system that have nothing to do with Mantis, (Leopard for example) make it seem like it is a mish mash of a bunch of things. Not true.

There no more politics in Wah Lum than in any other system. Of course everybody wants to be the "numba one guy". So there will always be a "differance of opinion" between some students.

I have been to the Temple many times and have learned quite a few forms in Orlando. Four of them personally from Master Chan.
Everybody in Orlando has been nice and are open to other students from out of town. I can't answer on the "closed door" stuff. Certain people have probally learned forms others haven't because they have the skill or "time in the system" to learn it. Why teach someone advanced forms who have not reached that level of skill?. Would you let someone perform open heart surgery on you after only 1-2 years of training???. No of course not they haven't reached that level of skill or knowledge yet.

People who compete in Wah Lum do change their forms for competition, but is not mandatory as far as I know. I always competed with my forms unaltered. Flash will always win over technical skill. Especially in Mc Dojo tournaments.

Sparring is done at our school but on a limited basis because of where we train. I can't speak for the Temple. But I do believe they spar on Thursday nights if I'm not mistaken.

As far as seminars go the only time you can't go is if you didn't pay. I've never had a problem.

Thats what I have noticed over the years....I am not an expert on what goes on up in Orlando, so you'll have to talk to someone who trains there. If anybody ever comes to Miami, you are more than welcome to train with us.:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[SaMantis]

ED, you're the voice of reason. :)

Many people in martial arts want to learn the "secrets" of their chosen style. Fact is, that's up to the discretion of the instructor. It's not just a Wah Lum thing, as ED pointed out. Frankly, when I started Wah Lum, nobody ever told me I was going to learn special secrets.

Advanced styles -- I'm not worried about being taught "everything" when I learn a form. I learn the applications that the instructor feels I would understand, and I practice the form to see what I can do with it. As I increase in experience/ability, my understanding of the form increases. For example, in another thread there was a discussion of a form called Little Open Gate, which is taught to beginners. For one move, the more experienced MAs here (both current and ex-WL'ers) described many more applications than I had visualized/been taught. Meaning that this short beginner's form has advanced applications.

As a writer, the analogy I can give here is that grade schoolers don't write novels. Sure, their spelling is good and they can put together a sentence, but it's going to take several years of training before they can write "War and Peace."

Politics -- well, politics is politics. Get more than 10 people together and you've got politics. The temple has a lot of students and Master Chan is here, and there is politics on every level.

Not studying other styles -- Sifu is very traditional, and he wants to run his school as traditionally as possible. This was a big thing back in his day, and at many CMA schools it still is. As a student, just be honest with your sifu; if you have concerns or Wah Lum is not working for you, talk to your sifu. Most of the people I started WL with who eventually left never talked to their instructor about what was bugging them. The ones who did, the instructor made every effort to help them out, and only one guy who did this has left (but he was unhappy because we weren't learning "how to kill people").

Lode Runner, if you decide to take WL, focus on what you came for: learning kung fu. Practice hard, listen to your sifu, don't worry about the politics. Enjoy working out and learning about Chinese culture.

If you're ever at the temple, come over and say hi.

Sam Mazzotta

P.S. -- Gung Hay Fat Choy, everyone!! :)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Lode Runner
I guess everyone read more into question 5 than you intended. Just take a look at the student handbook for a list of forms on each level. Ask one of the students to show you a few forms. You could also buy one or two of the anniversary videos. Some of the videos have advanced forms on them. Once you get up around 7th level your training becomes a little more customized according to your abilities.

[Joe Mantis]

Lode Runner

At Harry's school you'll probably just be learning forms and lion dance. He doesn't do much if any applications. Look at your hand book and that's about it.

If you want to know what you'll be learning, just look at the Sifu's who have "paid their dues" and see what they have learned. A lot of those guys have been in the system for a long time and still are only learning at seminars.

[flem]

secrets?

i do not believe there are secrets in WL or in any other style for that matter. of course there is advanced material, and in WL i think it can be reached by anyone. the whole thing is understanding how all the movements integrate into one another. once this is found then learning so called secrets only adds to ones ability and understanding.


lode runner
because of the above, i am saying that your concerns in learning kung fu should not be concerned with authenticity or even whether you will be limited in your learning, i do not think they play a part. what i am saying is that yours and everyone else involved in WL or any style for that matter, should be concerned with what the arts promote. are they concerned with the well being of the student- beyond making sure that they get enough attention so that they keep paying, are they concerned with the integrity of the style, and by this i mean, are the students(advanced also) taught the importance of humility, respect, and all the other words associated with the definition of a true martial artist? my understanding is that because of my previous post about numbers, that many faults go unchecked, and this is a shame.
your belief in personal expression has little place in WL.

[Lode Runner]

EARTH DRAGON:

>P.S (dan) pronunced (don) refers to japanese degrees of ranking not chinese.....<

Oh. ****, I need to stop doing so much research; I'm confusing myself...

Well I think I recall reading that he's a 6th level somethingoranother, then. Is that helpful? :o

Hua Lin Laoshi:

>I guess everyone read more into question 5 than you intended. Just take a look at the student handbook for a list of forms on each level...<

But that isn't "secret." "Secret" does not equal "advanced." You wouldn't call quantum physics secret... but nonetheless you can't take it or even understand most of it unless you've taken a bevy of previous classes.

To me, "secret" implies that you don't learn the existence of this thing until it's time for you to learn it. I am against this style of teaching. To use Samantis's analogy, it's like the difference between reading war and peace and then years later, after you've grown into a full-fledged writer, writing a similar novel vs. reading only books that are on par with your writing skill and having to work your way up to the privilege of even being allowed to read War and Peace.

IMO, gazing upon greatness nourishes both your motivation and your sense of perspective.

[Lode Runner]

Joe Mantis:

>At Harry's school you'll probably just be learning forms and lion dance. He doesn't do much if any applications. Look at your hand book and that's about it.<

"Additional opportunity for "die-hard" students who are interested in extra-cirriculum training, such as tournament competition, martial arts demonstration team, Lion Dance team, social get together, or just want more training."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to successfully compete in a tournament (and not look like a fool) you need to be taught application, right?


***
You know, there really needs to be a feedback system of sorts. Like someone who reviews MA schools. I really don't know who to believe.

[woliveri]

You know, there really needs to be a feedback system of sorts. Like someone who reviews MA schools. I really don't know who to believe.

Well these responses should be enough to give you awareness of some of our opinions. Most, if not all, come from personal experience. My suggestion is if your comfortable with what's been said then visit the school and make your choice. Most of us didn't have the opportunity to review such comments during our time. Still, for me, WL was a good experience. One that I'll always remember but there may be a time when you'll want to expand your knowledge where the temple cannot (or will not) provide. It'll be then you'll need to move on to satisfy your thirst for knowledge.

Secrets: I agree with flem that there are no secrets, just other forms that provide a difference of potential between the master and the student. However, in order for me to understand this I had to go outside the temple and study from a couple of different teachers which gave me a different prespective (internal ma, TCM, qi gong). So the information is out there but not taught by the temple.

[Joe Mantis]

Lode Runner

The tournament training is basically on forms. Even at that there is not much emphasis on doing difficult "flashy" techniques which the audience and judges love.
Don't count on him teaching you much sparring techniques either.

Basically in a sparring situation one can get by with "kickboxing."

You will not learn how to use your kung fu techniques while sparring. And I do believe that one studies/pracitices/trains so that they can use it.

Look at the school. How many students are sparring competitivly?
How many are competing at the advanced level in forms competition and doing well?
You'll get a decent foundation, but for more advanced MA training (especially with applications) you will need to go elsewhere.

Check your area for other kung fu schools. I think there is a school in Merritt Island and one in Titusville. It may even beneficial just to talk with the Sifu's and watch a class just so you can make a comparison, even if you don't plan on joining that school.

I agree that you should know what you are getting into and commend your efforts to make an informed choice about training at a particular school.

[18elders]

Go to other mantis schools and take some classes and compare.

Ask if this is how their curriculum is taught?
This is information provided by Tainan mantis(pong lai's kung fu brother)

Also, before I mention the method you should know that this was at one time one of the inner door secret methods that outer door students didn't learn. Nor did they know of its existance.
To this day you will see that many schools have partner forms without even knowing that they are doing the solo version of a partner form.

The first mention I have come across of a variant of this method is from 2 books in the Ming dynasty which explain spear fighting and stick fighting. These books have yet to be translated into English.(details in TJPM forum under weapons folder)

I have also seen it explained for straight sword fighting in a method identical to PM.

The first public mention of the method in PM comes from WHF. My teacher has the same four steps he listed with an additional step at the end.

1.Lien
-solo form practice

2.ling
-solo form becomes a two man form

3.pi
-two man form becomes many small drills that each go like a merry-go-round.

4.tsai
-students learn how the drills are recombined in a different order.

5.gan
- a step unique to my teacher which is fighting.
This aspect didn't exist with weapons as the result would be crippling or death and so was only used on the enemy.

Details:
-You know how you have to make your solo form look top notch before you learn another?
Well, the same applies to these steps. Each step must be as good looking, quick and powerful as your solo form before moving on.

-There is another method of fighting also mentioned in Wang Lang's 18 family sonnet.
This is where one player performs the technique on the other player and is successful.
This method has been best preserved in arts like judo and shuai jiao(although my teacher also teaches it).

In this method the opponent doesn't get to defend or defends unsuccessfully and so is thrown or locked.
The disadvantage of this method is that it would eliminate all your sparring partners very quickly if you practiced techniques like "nose break" and "groin smash" which are more suitable for the first method.



Isold 8-
The parade you mentioned, you said it should have been a wah lum parade.
You should thank pong lai for that.
We were invited to be in the parade but when master chan found out he had a fit and said if we were in it he wouldn't be. He told the association he would bring 5 schools to it to keep us out. Pong lai had already told the association we wouldn't be in it so master chan wouldn't be ****ed.
So much for learn kindness , fellowship

[Lode Runner]

Joe:

What exactly are you basing your assumptions on? Is it what you read on the website, or in your experience are all WL schools run in this manner?

[9dragonshijin]

quote:

If I DID open up a school (hah) I would probably modify the style just as Pui did.


I assume you are serious with your questions, and not a troll, so I apologize up front with my abruptness( iam home with a pretty bad cold, so maybe iam moody). Your statement is like someone who never picked up a paint brush looking at a Rembrandt and saying" Yeh, I could do that". Its absurd. Ive seen so many people who start WL with either previous experience, or none, but think they know more than they do. You have not even taken a class, but have disected the system 25 ways. You do NOT learn MA by talking about it. YOU DO IT. Train hard for 3 or 4 years, and then come back and read some of your statements. :rolleyes:

[Lode Runner]

9dragonshijin:

>Your statement is like someone who never picked up a paint brush looking at a Rembrandt and saying" Yeh, I could do that". Its absurd. Ive seen so many people who start WL with either previous experience, or none, but think they know more than they do. You have not even taken a class, but have disected the system 25 ways. You do NOT learn MA by talking about it. YOU DO IT. Train hard for 3 or 4 years, and then come back and read some of your statements. <

My statement is like someone saying "If I do become a great painter I want to have my own unique style; I don't want to simply copy everything Rembrandt ever did. Thus, I would prefer it if my teacher did not ban me from studying all non-Rembrandt paintings." I'm certainly not implying that this is easy in any way shape or form; I am simply saying what I would LIKE to do if I ever manage to achieve that level of skill.

How have I dissected the system 25 ways? I've merely commented on what others have told me is true. For all I know, a great deal of the art involves b*tch-slapping your opponent with a large and smelly salmon because I've yet to sit in on a class (I know I probably should but I want to know what it is I'm seeing before I actually go and see it.)

I know that I will not achieve a meaningful understanding of the art before I study it, but I don't want to spend 3 or 4 years and thousands of dollars just to find out that this system is NOT what I'm looking for. Talking about it does serve a purpose; like Joe said, I just want to get a general idea about what it is that I'm getting into.

[Lode Runner]

18elders:

>Go to other mantis schools and take some classes and compare.<

You know, you're right. if I am really serious about it I should probably visit multiple schools and sit in on many different classes.

Now the only problem is finding the time...

>The parade you mentioned, you said it should have been a wah lum parade.
You should thank pong lai for that.
We were invited to be in the parade but when master chan found out he had a fit and said if we were in it he wouldn't be. He told the association he would bring 5 schools to it to keep us out. Pong lai had already told the association we wouldn't be in it so master chan wouldn't be ****ed.
So much for learn kindness , fellowship<


****. That sounds amazingly petty of him. Before I start seriously ranting, who is "we" and why doesn't master chan like you guys?

[Joe Mantis]

Lode Runner

It's not an assumptions unless Harry has changed what he has been doing.

All Wah Lum schools is a pretty broad statement. But I can't speak for all.

Why don't you first check out Harry's school. Then go up to Merritt Island and watch his other school and how that person teaches.
Students normally teach what and how they have been taught.
I'll save you the trip and tell you: you won't see any mantis applications. You might see some sparring in pads but that is just games.

you have to ask yourself a couple of questions:
1. why do I want to train?
2. Am I willing to invest the time to find it out.

Do you want a lot of forms and be involved in a contemporary wushu type school?

or do you want a school that trains to use the material?

good luck.
by the way, you won't have much self expression. try repression.

[Lode Runner]

Oh. You've actually been to the school? Ok...

[9dragonshijin]

Like i said before, iam at home sick so i tend to get a little grumpy(just ask my wife). :D My point is that you are not really going to get a good idea before you actually do it , or see it for that matter.( Might want to watch a class before you go creating your own style). Im not speaking of just WL, iam speaking of MA in general, any style. I did Tae Kwon do for a while before kung fu. The instructor was an excellent teacher and very good martial artist. He was old school, trained in Korea. I just did not find it interesting after a while. Do i think that the time i spent there was wasted? Of course not. I gained flexibility, endurance, and some insight into martial arts. Everyone has different preferences,and biases, no one can tell you what MA you will enjoy. WL is traditional, sifus do not decide to start changing the system at will, then it wouldn't be traditional would it? The fact that you have not even seen a class, says something about your interest in learning.

[NorthernMantis]

You might see some sparring in pads but that is just games.

What are you saying Joe Mantis?That all we (wal lum association) do is games?

[18elders]

We are pong lai wu ji praying mantis. We are also ex- wah lummers who spend many years in the system.
A student of tom hausse's(his wah lum school is near ours) started to bash us so we responded.
Master chan is mad at the things said and also that wah lum has lost students who decided to train with pong lai.

[Lode Runner]

9dragonshijin:

My turn to be harsh.

So basically you're saying that I should just jump right in without any research whatsoever and never question anything wah lum teaches me? That's bull****. Promoting that sort of attitude will only lead to the detriment of MAs, as you'll have a bunch of newbies who wind up joining the wrong school and becoming disillusioned.

>( Might want to watch a class before you go creating your own style)<

And this is just ****ing stupid. I was giving you guys a hypothetical situation based on how limiting these restrictions must be on prodigious students. I even threw in a "hah" directed at the concept of me becoming a master (because I'm pretty **** uncoordinated.)

I should also note that the privilege of blending styles should not and is not the sole domain of the grandmasters. I would hazard a guess that many people here on the boards do the same. Achieving this moderate to high level of skill where I can benefit from a little diversity is not (I think) out of my reach. Therefore, being able to learn other systems is relevant even if the other scenario is just a pipe dream (which -- I freely admit -- it probably is.)

>The fact that you have not even seen a class, says something about your interest in learning.<

What I will gain by looking at the class itself is based on what I already know; if I don't know what makes a good kung fu program (sparring, proper forms, etc.) then I won't learn much of anything. Yeah, I could probably get something out of it even if it isn't what I eventually end up with but I think a month or two of research will be worth it to find a system that's better for me.

18elders:

>We are pong lai wu ji praying mantis. We are also ex- wah lummers who spend many years in the system.
A student of tom hausse's(his wah lum school is near ours) started to bash us so we responded.
Master chan is mad at the things said and also that wah lum has lost students who decided to train with pong lai.<

Ah, ok. I suppose that's understandable, though I can't comment about whether or not he was justified because I don't know what all was said and who said it (if it was a student that's one thing; if it was your Sifu that's another.)

[9dragonshijin]

Hey, do what you want.
Sifu Harry Lo, 6th level dan.Hmmmm.
Interesting research.

[9dragonshijin]

Hey, do what you want.
Sifu Harry Lo, 6th level dan in WL.Hmmmm.
Interesting research.

[18elders]

The things that were said were questions about the history of the system, the mixture of northern and southern, the way people are taught , lack of applications and 2 person drills etc.

[Lode Runner]

Is there any particular reason you feel that you must try to attack me (an admitted newbie who, up until a month ago, knew almost nothing about MAs)? There's being harsh and then there's being an @sshole. I think that by ignoring my reply and instead nitpicking on a very easy to make mistake (did you really manage to memorize all of these chinese terms in a matter of a couple weeks? At this point all I can remember is Sifu, SiMo, SiHing, and SiJze), you've clearly crossed the line into the latter.

[NorthernMantis]

Now the plot thickens as more things are revealed.

Well he probably meant 6th generation but si gung is 6th generation and Harry Lo would be at 7th.Well my question is does Harry Lo that he is saying online?

18 elders we've discussed that before.I don't know what these people have with sigung other than what was just said here and other threads but if anyone gots beef with him take it to him and not to innocent people who know no better and I mean this for all those out there trying to leave a bad taste in peoples mouths about wah lum.

Your basic strategy is to attack possible newbies and innocent people oblivious to these politics and give wah lum a bad rap all while trying to play the innocent part.I would expect more of you than to play these childish games.

Bottom line is:

Ex-wah lum people are angry with Master Chan so they attack begginers in the art who know have nothing to do with this.How ethical of them.

Somehow this seemingly innocent question turned into another flame thread.Whta a coincidnce huh?

Like I said before does Master Shr know about any of this?

18elders -

If you and all the other ex-wah lum people want to respond then take it to sifu Tom or si gung Chan Pui like it was supposed to be done intstead of picking on people who have nothing to do with this.

I knew something was behind all of this and now I compltely understand. You're angry at sigung and have a personal vendetta. Like many other people I got swetp along.

Word to 18 elders and all the others:

Don't include others in your little revenge you have going on.Either take it the authorities or shut up.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by Lode Runner
Is there any particular reason you feel that you must try to attack me (an admitted newbie who, up until a month ago, knew almost nothing about MAs)? There's being harsh and then there's being an @sshole

18elders is mad at si gung so he attacks innocent people unaware of the politics.Enough said.

[9dragonshijin]

O.K.
1.
I never said not to question anything or to avoid research, but you already at the school, and have not even taken the time to watch a class.
2.
You are putting the cart before the horse when you speak of blending styles. You might want to try a style before you go "blending" them.
3.
You do Tai Chi , correct? Now explain to someone who has never even seen Tai Chi what is all about. Get my point?
Look I did it w/out even calling you any names.

[9dragonshijin]

I am giving you good advice, and that is , try it.
Its a lot about feel , and you can't research that. If you are like most people, you will try a few different styles anyway before it is all said and done. If you trust your Sifu enough to learn Tai chi, then why not kung fu? Try not to overthink this stuff.

[18elders]

are you in a bad mood or what???
All i did was answer his question,
I don't have anything against poi except some of his politics that i will discuss at a later date.
I stated that we are ex-wah lum so people will understand we aren't just making **** up that we are speaking with experience(alot more than you have).
Master shr will have a few things to discuss with poi himself i'm sure .
Glad to answer any questions you have.

As to settle it with tom, that's another story

[NorthernMantis]

To tell the truth I'm in a greatd mood right now:D I did get sort of mad when I found out that this whole argument that we've been having for sometime now was because of some problems you had with someone else and I got swept along.Evrything is cool now:D

[isol8d]

I stated that we are ex-wah lum so people will understand we aren't just making **** up that we are speaking with experience(alot more than you have).

You have a lot more experience doing what? I am confused with that statement. I looked up pong lai on google, came up with one "Culturural Celebration" day in Tennessee, and it said Pong Lai Wu Ji Praying Mantis Kung Fu Club (formerly Wah Lum Kung Fu).

Link to that page (http://www.scarrittbennett.org/Performer%20Schedule.htm)

How long has Pong Lai been around? What is the history of your system? What branch of mantis would you associate with your style?(Jut Sow, Tai Ji, Chut Sing, etc) I have seen you mention Master Shr, maybe you could give a little background on him/her?

I believe you said you're in Tampa, right? Are there any other schools closer to Orlando?

Thanks

[flem]

i have been answering possitively on WLs behalf as concerns the style itself, but the question is, having much to do with becoming a new student as lode runner is considering, is why all the talent dissappears? t. fleming, d. wong, a. d'agostino, and many others too numerous to mention. yes, each individuals case can be dissected, and a reason found, but what is important is that much time was invested in them and by them, as well as 18elders, his group, and myself included. this problem of diminishing high ranking individuals should make new students as well as older ones question why.

[SaMantis]

1. flem, you've asked this question before. If you were in the system for as long as you say you are, you (and other ex-senior students) know the story behind each of those guys (not all left for the same reasons). Diminishing talent? There's still plenty of talent in WL, at every level.

2. Northern Mantis, you hit the nail on the head with Pong Lai. There is a concerted effort by them on this forum to discredit Wah Lum and bring any "wavering" students to their side. The deal with the New Year parade in Orlando has less to do with what's said on this forum as with what's happening out in the "real world."

Pong Lai can continue to diss WL online but at this point, many forum members are on to them. They don't have to have the whole story to know bad martial etiquette when they see it (or read it).

3. Lode Runner, keep researching and asking questions, but not just on this forum. Ask Sifu Lo, ask your Tai Chi instructor, visit other schools in your area (not just praying mantis but anything that interests you). Then dedicate yourself to one art and don't worry about the nitpicky BS from people not in your system (ex-WL or not).

Fact is, your first year in a kung fu system, your mind will be more occupied with fighting the pain in your legs (from stance training) than in fighting an opponent.

Now I need to be practicing more than talking, so this is my last post on this thread. And if PL'ers can't come up with anything more original than "Wah Lum doesn't teach application," maybe they should sign off, too.

Sam

[flem]

samantis

yes, i know each situation. but my point is that a major effort should have been made to keep them. i am sure there is talent there now, but along the lines of those i mentioned? doubt it. take d'agostino, for the time he taught and the small classes he had he sure promoted the style.three schools, two clubs, plus the talent that now is at the pong lai group. seems to me he was valuable enough to work out his differences. i think you should think of my points carefully instead of immediately defending, remember i was there, i know that you feel like standing up for your school, i did also. but you stand up just as well by understanding the problem i mentioned and working to correct it. it is a problem- whatever the individual reasons for their departure.

[spiralstair]

Flem: Mark Twain said it best," Every one is a moon, and has a dark side which he shows to nobody." Do you really want to have a public discussion about those people you mentioned in which that which they chose to hide is brought out into the open? Or do you just want to limit it to the things you feel WL has done to wrong them?

People and organizations based on their ideas tend to be fallible. A patient practitioner learns to take the good with the bad and find their own way without wasting a lot of time concentrating on their own ideas of other's shortcomings. At some point it becomes time to move on.

[Joe Mantis]

Sa Mantis

I will agree that there is still plenty of talent in WL at evert level, However it is definately not at the level of those who left. You can't tell me that there are guys who can touch the level of...
well you know who they are (I hope).

Lode Runner:

Sounds as if you are into self expression and you want to do that in the MA's. go for it. Just be aware of being restricted to going to
"approved" seminars only. Close mindeness, exclusive attitudes, and the such.
best of luck to you.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Lode Runner
So what you're looking for is a complete list of forms, drills, 2-man sets, techniques and training methods for the Wah Lum system. Do you want the recipe for Master Chan's iron palm jow too? :D
The higher level material is reserved for the ones who are serious enough to complete the curriculum in the handbook. BTW, the handbook also lists advanced material, it just doesn't lay out what level they are on. And this material is not reserved for Master Chan's daughter only. I'm not sure exactly what it is you're trying to find out. I suggest you look around and ask questions and pick what you think is right for you. Just don't expect to learn all the advanced material from multiple masters as there are very few who are willing to give up information they spent their lives learning to just anyone who drops by for a year or two.

Personally I don't look all that far into the future. Most people don't get through the curriculum listed in the handbook so what's the sense in showing them beyond that? woliveri didn't get too far, 18Elders was a Wah Lum Sifu but I believe he was missing some of the material in the curriculum list. I don't think Joe Mantis went very far either. Pong Lai and Tainan Mantis didn't go as far as 18Elders. The rest are just trying to learn Wah Lum from videos or something.

Joe Mantis
Are you saying that you didn't learn the application to second exercise? Or did you think it was something other than mantis like woliveri?

flem
I'm sure you had some negative experiences with Wah Lum which is why you left but my question is Does this happen in other styles as well? If I go to a local Wing Chun school will I see 10 or 20 high level students or do most drop out (for one reason or another) before reaching Sifu level? I believe you can walk into any Kung Fu or Karate school anywhere and find the same thing. In any school I ever joined or just watched I never saw more than a few high level people. Sooner or later they all drop out except for a very small number. Show me a school that cranks out 5 or 10 Sifu's a year and I'll believe that students stay long term in other schools.

[China Village]

You guys sure are fun to watch go at it. I used to troll on your threads, but I don't even have to do that anymore. You former and current wah lummers find it easy to start sh*t all by yourselves. After reading through all of these threads, I've gotten a pretty good idea of who's on what side.

18Elders - It seems that allot of people on your side of the fence (former wah lum) talk about the politics that drove you away. I hear things thrown around about secrets, seminars, and lack of application, but nobody ever seems to come out and say what is on their mind - what the real deal is. Like in your last post you said you have problems with politics that you'd discuss later. If they're such serious issues whay wait? Not a criticisim, just a curiosity.

Wah Lum People - Sometimes you guys seem over sensitive. From the eyes of an outsider it looks like you guys start everything. Again, I'm not trying to criticise you, just letting you know the picture you're painting of your system. It seems like you have something to hide.

Personally, I don't care. I'm happy where I am, and have learned to stay out of the kung fu world based on politics alone (it seems to be a theme in most systems). Why don't you guys just get together and have a Battle Royal or something like that. Maybe jello wrestling (oops, I made a joke. Please don't take it the wrong way :) ). Just a thought...

[flem]

spiralstair

from your past posts i can see that you are intelligent. i think that your quote answers my question, or it atleast gives it light(no pun intended). indeed if everyone has a dark side it only strengthens my point/issue. why weren't these problems worked out with the above mentioned?
no, i do not want to "air" each personal situation, in fact i only went as far as i did to give credence to what i was saying.

hua lin laoshi

i am certain that there is a large turn over wherever you go. but i can only imagine that it is largely low and middle ranking students, not those who made their living by it.
in my own case, i lived by it, promoted it, and basically sacrificed alot of myself and those around me. i believed in it's cause right up to the end. in fact, i didn't really realize how distant the sayings on the alter were until i got out and as i said before, was able to see it from the outside. i realize that nothing that i say will change anyones opinion who is "in it", such as yourself, or samantis. but perhaps it will let you see things in a different light. i don't think it is all bad, but i do think it could be extraordinary if what i have spoken of is addressed, and corrected- if the words on the alter were the law, and everyone was made to lve by them. and it's no skin off my back either way

[Lode Runner]

Northern Mantis:

>Well he probably meant 6th generation but si gung is 6th generation and Harry Lo would be at 7th.Well my question is does Harry Lo that he is saying online?<

Honestly, I don't remember where I'm remembering this "6" from. I've been researching a few Judo/Jujutsu schools as well (trying to get my sis interested in MA's only she's a Japanese addict so she won't even consider kung fu) so I suppose it's possible I'm remembering a certain JMA school where the sensei was a 6th level dan. My life is so chaotic; I've been pretty brain-addled these past few months... you must wonder why I choose to go with TC first, huh? :)

>Ex-wah lum people are angry with Master Chan so they attack begginers in the art who know have nothing to do with this.How ethical of them.

Somehow this seemingly innocent question turned into another flame thread.Whta a coincidnce huh?

...[snip]

18elders is mad at si gung so he attacks innocent people unaware of the politics.Enough said.<

Ermmmmm... I should point out that it was 9dragonshijin that I perceived to be "picking on me." 18elders has been very reasonable and logical thus far.


9dragonshijin:

>1. I never said not to question anything or to avoid research, but you already at the school, and have not even taken the time to watch a class. <

And I will get around to it, but you know what? I got some major complicated **** going on in my life right now. Besides the reasons I've already laid out, I really don't have the time to sit through an entire class (yes I have watched a few minutes here and there; mostly stick fighting) and quiz my Sifu on the style. And even if I did, I want to know just what I should be asking. I don't like to rush into a situation and get sucked into anything... and I don't want to say something stupid and offend him ("hey I heard you guys don't teach much application...")

>You are putting the cart before the horse when you speak of blending styles. You might want to try a style before you go "blending" them.<

I'm merely looking at said horse and wondering if, down the road, I could possibly buy said cart and hook it up. It's called planning ahead.

>You do Tai Chi , correct? Now explain to someone who has never even seen Tai Chi what is all about. Get my point?
Look I did it w/out even calling you any names.<

I didn't call you a name... directly. And while I probably couldn't explain the essence of TC to a newbie, I could explain what it does (improves coordination, balance, focus) and what it doesn't do (build large muscles, offer hard and quick MA applications (well, unless you're at a "REAL" TC school), etc.) Finding out that their sparring practice differs from other kung fu schools will affect how well this style works in RL situations... something that I am more interested in than tournament situations.

I am also very interested (LATER ON... like years from now. yes I do think that far ahead sometimes) in the possibility of combining a grappling art (Judo, Aikido, BJJ) with a hard kung fu style so finding out that I would be banned from WL for attending another school is relevant as well.

>I am giving you good advice, and that is , try it.
Its a lot about feel , and you can't research that. If you are like most people, you will try a few different styles anyway before it is all said and done. If you trust your Sifu enough to learn Tai chi, then why not kung fu? Try not to overthink this stuff.<

I really can't afford the time and money it would cost me to simply rush in. I appreciate your point of view; even after sitting through a TC class I was still very surprised at how I felt after my first lesson. But if I can, I'd rather not waste money and time or accidentally insult my Sifu so I would appreciate it if you respected my decision to do a little more research first. Thank you.

Hua Lin Laoshi:

>So what you're looking for is a complete list of forms, drills, 2-man sets, techniques and training methods for the Wah Lum system. Do you want the recipe for Master Chan's iron palm jow too?<

Sure. ;)

>Personally I don't look all that far into the future. Most people don't get through the curriculum listed in the handbook so what's the sense in showing them beyond that? woliveri didn't get too far, 18Elders was a Wah Lum Sifu but I believe he was missing some of the material in the curriculum list. I don't think Joe Mantis went very far either. Pong Lai and Tainan Mantis didn't go as far as 18Elders.<

I think that this makes my point precisely. I want to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel so when the going gets tough, I'LL KNOW WHAT I'M STRIVING FOR.

[Lode Runner]

Joe:

>Sounds as if you are into self expression and you want to do that in the MA's. go for it. Just be aware of being restricted to going to "approved" seminars only. Close mindeness, exclusive attitudes, and the such.
best of luck to you.<

flem:

>i have been answering possitively on WLs behalf as concerns the style itself, but the question is, having much to do with becoming a new student as lode runner is considering, is why all the talent dissappears? t. fleming, d. wong, a. d'agostino, and many others too numerous to mention. yes, each individuals case can be dissected, and a reason found, but what is important is that much time was invested in them and by them, as well as 18elders, his group, and myself included. this problem of diminishing high ranking individuals should make new students as well as older ones question why.<

Can you guys be more specific? Seriously, just lay it all out for me. I really think that you should be able to relate your experiences honestly without being flamed, regardless of how popular your sentiments are. But even if you don't have the time, if you could be so kind as to link to a few older threads I'd appreciate it.

What are some of the specific instances you've found where WL was more close-minded than most other kung fu schools (and just as importantly, what are these other schools that you're comparing it to?) How do most non-WL sifus (or Japanese sensei's for that matter) react when you tell them that you plan on going to a seminar or beginning study at another school? How does WL's sparring differ? I just noticed that in the handbook they say "absolutely no full contact sparring permitted"; what does that mean exactly and how dangerous is full contact sparring anyway? What exactly does the term "application" mean? (I've actually been bluffing this whole time... I assumed that it was shorthand for "real life applications; i.e. streetfighting" but I could be wrong.) And what were the reasons for those people you mentioned quitting?

Conversely, do any wah lummers find any of these things not to be true? Have you studied at several kung fu schools and not found WL to be any more closeminded or political than the rest? (and again, what schools are you comparing it to?) Do you feel that you are trained for RL confrontations? Have you ever been in a "real" fight against a trained opponent and managed to defend yourself adequitely? How has WL fared in tournaments compared to the other styles? etc.

Like I said, if only someone could write reviews for these places...

[NorthernMantis]

Somehow this seemingly innocent question turned into another flame thread.Whta a coincidnce huh?

The same thing was on my mind :D Anyways I'm not paying much attention like before.Just people with problems that's all.

Judo is pretty cool for a JMA my mom did it when she was small.I know a Judoka pretty well but I never got to touch hands.

[TaiChiBob]

Well.. heck, this is interesting..
i only passed my first test with Master Chan before focusing on Tai Chi (that was 1990). Since that time i have trained directly with Master Chan and offer these observations.. First, and foremost, he is just another person, like all of us. He has emotions, issues, oh yeah, and an incredible art he is willing to share.. for a fee, and that fee is not limited to $$, it includes dedication, sincerity and contribution to the system.. you know, like helping to clean up around the temple, like giving of your talents to help in ways not directly connected with MA.. What many don't take time to consider is that like most "Masters", Master Chan has dedicated his LIFE to the art.. we come in for a few hours a day/week and expect to receive the "keys to the kingdom".. those keys are earned, not bought..

Master Chan has been nothing but fair to me.. i have asked to go to seminars by others.. sometimes he says yes, sometimes no.. but, in each case he explains why.. "not good for you", or.. "yeah, yeah.. you go, moon chai".. He has taken time to explain/demonstrate in detail all that he has taught me.. not without pointing out my weaknesses or poor interpretations with embarrasing commentary.. but, he understands the individual students, he knows i can take it.. for others, he can be extraordinarily compassionate..

I have seen him invest much time in very talented students, only to watch them return disrespect.. again, i assert he is just another person like any of us... he can hurt, he can respond negatively, he can be human, too.. Sometimes we hold our "Masters" up as some kind of "deities", that's our personal issues, not reality..

Seattle, i believe it was 1997, John Leong's tournament.. i think i counted 14 "Masters" sitting at a table.. presided by Master Chan, i observed (i wasn't sitting there, so this is conjecture on my part) that differences of opinion were deferred to Chan Pui.. My point is that regardless of personal opinions, Chan Pui and the WahLum system he leads enjoys a high degree of respect, and that respect is built on performance, demonstration, effectiveness, and.. the tireless efforts of Master Chan..

Much has been said about Master Chan's dedication to Family.. It is a cultural trait, and a virtue to be admired.. all things being equal, forsaking family for others is not a trait i would want from myself or my Teacher.. If you had to choose between paying for college for you own child or someone else's.. well.. you get the picture..

Life at the top is difficult.. everyone wants to be there, you are the biggest target on the block, and others find it easier to tear-down well-deserved reputations than to build one of their own.. I believe that the future of CMA, the novices that read these postings, must be confused and concerned about the quality of the current cast of players.. Will we offer them stones to throw at other systems/Masters.. or, stones to strengthen the walls of their own systems.

Be well, do good deeds (deeds define us)...

PS.. Master Chan's generosity is legendary, both to those deserving, and those not so deserving..
Apologies to my Kung Fu brothers and sisters for jumping in like this, but i just needed to express my personal opinion.. i, too, may have some issues.. but i will take them up with whom i have the issues, not a public airing that only breeds more "issues"..

[woliveri]

Hi Bob,

What many don't take time to consider is that like most "Masters", Master Chan has dedicated his LIFE to the art.. we come in for a few hours a day/week and expect to receive the "keys to the kingdom".. those keys are earned, not bought..

This is an incorrect generalization. You are implying that no one else has in their hearts to become a Master of their art. Personally, I think you have described MC fairly well but in this case, you see, no one outside the family would be brought to Master level. No one. This should be known up front.

Also, I think this is a great medium for exchanging thoughts and ideas about a system. If a person can look at the comments objectively then he/she can see when someone is flaming or being sencere.

[flem]

taichibob

some of the instances that i related, including my own, were things that were brought up in a private setting. i do not know every detail of every situation, but i can tell you that in my own, and atleast one other case, that by quiting, i was later defined as thrown out. and i have heard several other derrogatory comments about as well. so as far as appreciating MC's human side and the care and respect that's fine, but maybe that is because you are playing ball his way.
i am not going to come right out and say what i mean, because people have been burned right here on KF online without giving out their profile(politics work wonders), but if you have been around awhile you'll understand when i say that there is a "fox in the hen house"- the problem has never been with MC, but with the fox

lode runner

i do not want to address other people's personal business, except to say what i already have - but i will say this, alot of conflict seems to arise when sifu's find the ability to think, whether that involves kicking out their own students for violating the schools codes, or choosing to remain small time-teach fewer students. of the sifu's who left, their mark in WL is legendary, some for their training, others for their days in competition. much less can be said of those who remain, in fact everything they do is a comparison to those others

[woliveri]

but if you have been around awhile you'll understand when i say that there is a "fox in the hen house"- the problem has never been with MC, but with the fox

d.a.m.n flem. That is perfect. I was trying to think of a way to say that in good taste but couldn't come up with it... Dittos!!!

[spiralstair]

Dear _______: Oops, gave yourself away on that one.

Of the Sifu's that remain, much can be said;
They're loyal
They're not bitter
They're still learning
They're not blowing their own horn on the internet while pretending to talk about others.
They're still on the 'inside', while __(name goes here)__ et.al seem to feel a little bit 'left out' and a little bit angry.
Should it not be time soon to let it all go?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri
I don't see that in TaiChiBob's post at all. You might have it in your heart to be a master but it takes more than dreaming about it to succeed. Part-time training does not create a master.

flem
The higher you go in Wah Lum the more it hurts MC when you leave. Unfortunately for the rest of us MC is not as open as he used to be before he got burned by his disciples and others. Here's a non-Wah Lum personal story. The first Kenpo school I went to was small but the Sensei had aspirations of promoting Black Belts and expanding to a chain of schools. I remember a senior student who wanted to be a singer. He landed a steady gig in Atlantic City after the casinos opened up so he left. Sensei was extremely angry. When Sensei was younger he played bass guitar in a band while learning Karate. He finally had to choose one and he chose Karate. Because of that he couldn't understand when someone else made the other choice. After awhile I became a senior student. When I had reason to leave I quit. Again he got extremely angry and wanted my belt and certificate back. There were a couple of others that left around my time as well. To the best of my knowledge the only one to open a school was his son. I'm sure he got a bad attitude when nobody stayed long enough to reach black belt and open a school so he put all his effort into his son. Can you honestly say you would feel differently? Like TaiChiBob said, MC is human. He has some good traits and like anyone else he has some faults.

And not all the hens are the dumb clucks you think they are. Remember, these are Kung Fu hens. Some strong as a horse, others wise as a dragon.

[woliveri]

Hua Lin Laoshi

Part-time training does not create a master.

I guess we really need to define what part time is. If you're talking about 2 or 3 times a week then, yes. However, most, if not all, of the senior students flem is speaking of ate, drank, and breathed kung fu and most likely still do. They were there everyday, twice a day for years. How much more do you want? There are only so many hours in a day and the body can only take so much training before it becomes negative/detrimental. The body needs time to recover.

In your above story the problem there is with the Sensi, not the students. He is wrongly expecting something in return for his teaching without making arrangements prior to the student starting the school. If a teacher truely loves to teach and loves his students he will expect nothing in return and thusly will not, can not, ever be disappointed.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri
Your mixing comments. The master thing has nothing to do with flem's comments. It was a response to your comment to TaiChiBob. Get with the program. :) Are you saying some of these ex-Wah Lum people are masters?

Concerning the story. You missed the point again. You need to drop your pre-conceived notions when you read and post here. It's clouding your comprehension. The point is he put an effort into training people that didn't stick with him. There was no agreement or understanding so he shouldn't have felt like he did but the fact is, being human, that's how he felt. At least that's my interpretation. I'm guessing MC feels somewhat the same. Dissappointed, betrayed? It's human nature. What about the students in the instructor program? Or the ones who went as far as opening a school and then left? You think it's wrong for him to expect some loyalty out of these people? You think it's ok for them to get certified to open a school and then bail out on him? And I know for a fact that some of these people got a lot of extras from MC, such as money, gifts for school openings, opportunities for outside training, free tuition, etc. Everybody owes him. Some for equipment he let them have up front which they have yet to pay for, others for favors involving their personal lives. Things I'm not going to get specific about on this forum.

BTW, what does your icon say?

[woliveri]

Ok, the flem part seems to be tripping you up. Let me refine the statement:

I guess we really need to define what part time is. If you're talking about 2 or 3 times a week then, yes. A good many senior students that I have known ate, drank, and breathed kung fu and most likely still do. They were there everyday, twice a day for years. How much more do you want? There are only so many hours in a day and the body can only take so much training before it becomes negative/detrimental. The body needs time to recover.

Better? The point is that Bob made the statement that MC gave his life for his kung fu. I'm saying is there are many more who do the same but will not be brought to Master level no matter what they do.

I gotta break, I'll give you a response on the next segment you wrote later.

My Icon says "Qi Gong"

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Well, maybe I'm way off base but my personal opinion is that becoming a master has more to do with what you do with your knowledge and training and not what someone gives you. If a master teaches you everything he knows does that automatically make you a master?

What constitutes a master, how much you know or how much you can do? Can you be a spear master and not have any empty hand skills?

Is a master simply one who knows a complete system?

How will you know when you are a master? Will someone give you a certificate?

It seems to me what you were expecting from Wah Lum was an ending point. What is the last thing you learn that completes your training. When do I reach a point where you have nothing left to teach me. That kind of thing. In my opinion that's a personal decision.

Maybe you should stop looking for easy answers handed to you by 'experts' and 'masters' and start looking inside and around you for what nature has to offer. Look at Wong Long, he learned from an insect! Study in depth what you already have and make your own discoveries. I don't mean you should give up the search for more knowledge, just don't depend so much on getting it handed to you. From our conversations I believe you have much to learn from the things you already know.

[woliveri]

Well, maybe I'm way off base but my personal opinion is that becoming a master has more to do with what you do with your knowledge and training and not what someone gives you.

Yes, the key word here is training. In my view it's not about forms or getting a certificate. It's about training. What are we trying to do? What are you training? Your muscles? Your speed? What is the single thing that is common in all Chinese Martial arts? What's your gong (gung)? How long did MC train before he became a Master? What makes him different than other people who may have trained just as hard but who are not Masters? In my opinion, qi. MC has control and can use his qi in his Martial Arts (as far as I can see). This is the one major thing that is kept from students. How to train and use your qi. I learned this by going outside the system and that was purely by chance. I didn't leave in frustration to what I wasn't being taught. By a twist of fate I learned from other people. This opened my eyes to what's out there. What I know right now I can practice a lifetime and never practice another form. Understand?

[Lode Runner]

What was this Chi training that you were missing and where did you find it? If you took TC classes, I'm assuming that you found those to be deficient as well.

Look guys; I appreciate the replies but I'm not going to take person X's word over person Y's. All of these arguments mean nothing to me or anyone else new to this debate unless someone actually takes the time to explain their experiences and/or the supposed deficiencies of wah lum as compared to other kung fu styles so that I may be left to draw my own conclusions.

I realize that it might be painful to relate the whole story, and that it might cause you to be flamed by some diehards but it's really the only way you stand a chance of convincing me... or anyone else for that matter.

I'll try to do my own independant research, but if I know what to look for it will be that much easier. Remember, I am very much a newbie to the MA scene.

[TaiChiBob]

Oh dear.. it seems that i may have been mis-understood..
I did not intend imply that "no one else has it in their hearts to become a master".. nor do i believe that no one will be brought to master level..
The implication is that too many expect maximum returns on minimum investments.. Master Chan can and likely has trained people to the levels of others that have called themselves masters.. I believe a few have been handed the "keys to the kingdom" already, they simply chose the wrong door, in many cases the door out.. "Master" is not a title on a certificate, it is recognition for achievement.. i have never personally heard Master Chan claim the title, but.. love him or hate him, he is known by all as "Master", even GrandMaster..

Master Chan doesn't come out and say today is master training day.. too often the lessons are lost in their simplicity.. how often have any of you that have trained with this Man realized hours, days, or even longer.. the real lesson hidden in some seemingly simple correction.. some seemingly hap-hazard remark.. some seemingly demeaning criticism.. i know i have..

Yes, even the most promising fall by the wayside, the lessons were interpreted poorly.. the price in wounded egos, too high.. i understand that i am on shaky ground in some areas, lately (and i am far from the most promising).. but, i would rather be booted by the best than coddled by the mediocre.. Please understand, "the best" is a category of real Masters, not a reference designed to start another round of comparisons.. My time at the Temple has helped make me who i am today, to throw stones at that is to throw stones at myself.. whatever anyone walks away from the temple with.. is more than they had when they first arrived.. it is a shame to see the gifts go unrecognized, unappreciated..

be well, all.. (its ALL good, seen in the right light)

[woliveri]

Lode Runner,
I can answer your question by telling you a story I was told by one of the people I learned from, still my friend. He had a MA companion who trained every day by pushing a tree trunk from one side of his back yard to the other. He got into a horse stance and with both palms along with breathing and mind intent, pushed the tree trunk. Then walked forward, got into a horse stance and repeated. He did this every day from one side of his back yard and back. One day while my teacher and his friend was out walking they were confronted by two attackers. In a single move my teacher's friend stepped forward and pressed his palms into the two attackers chests sending them flying. My teacher told me the two had hand prints of his friend on their chests.

In the case of MC, a student was once 'touched' by MC on his chest that, for some time, paralyzed that side of his chest/arm which leads me to believe MC has trained his qi. This was a second hand story to me which I didn't see for myself.

I have learned an exercise called noi gung which is similar in description to one of the exercises posted in another thread (praying mantis qi gong) which also develops these types of skills. I never seen it but I heard MC demonstrated 10 Fong Fingers and by the description it sounds similar to the noi gung exercise in principle.

Yes, I feel the Taiji classes at WL are 'empty' because (unless this has changed) they are not allowed to practice qi gong.

If you really want to learn and not pulling our chains, research qi gong (yang jwang ming has some books), research Chinese Medicine (there are many good books from redwing), and think about what you want as an end result. There is so much out there it's increadible but a good teacher can recognize an @ss coming a mile away. Be one with yourself, be up front and truthful. No BS. Make sure your own house is in order before visiting another.

HTH

[flem]

hua lin laoshi

i respect the authority of master, but still it is a two way street, atleast it should be. what i am saying is that in some instances i think it would have been better for WL to find a meeting ground instead of making it one sided. as for "master", i want to be completely clear that i was not referring to people being limited in advancing in WL.

spiralstair

i assume your comments were directed to me. i do not dismiss the fact that there is talent still there. i also assume more will come. but what i am trying to point out is that there is a problem when good people are "thrown out".
i started replying to this forum in defense of WL, and as i said previously i think it has much to offer. i also feel that i have developed relationships here, however strange and distant they are. i am not trying to air my concerns as you said, if that were the case there would be no recourse on yours or anyone else's part in WL, as i was completely right in my situation concerning my departure.

[18elders]

reasons for leaving wah lum

I left for many reasons, i wasn't involved on the politics so much as i was kind of out on my own.
My 2 sifus(AD &SC) either were kicked out or left on their own.
After my last sifu left i had no sifu. No support from the temple, nobody appointed as my sifu. This went on for many years. I trained myself, with my kung fu brothers, supported the system , went to the grand oppenings, etc.
I was only taught new stuff at seminars, i tested and was a sifu but i think continued training at a higher level for sifus does not exist in wah lum. No seminars just for sifus, no applications just for sifus etc.

I am in clearwater, FL, Tom hausse has a school in tampa( 20 minutes away). When he first opened his school he didn't have people for lion dance for new years. He called me and i helped him with about 5 showes his first year. I helped him when he needed another sifu for testing also. Then the next new year came and he had people. I had a small club and i didn't have a lion. We were never invited to participate in any shows, he even came to my territory(clearwater) and solicited shows here. Again we were never invited. NOw that is crap, especially if it is in my area. He did the same thing to Harry Lo.

I had a student who left the area and came back. I had moved my club to a different location. He looked on the internet and contacted tom to see if there were any schools still in clearwater.
Tom had all the sifu's in the system listed on his web site except me.
He told the guy he was the ONLY school in the area and gave him directions to his school. Not only was I in the area but Bruce Cohen has a school in the area also.
So much for kung fu brother support.

When it came for sifu test i didn't have 3 section stick, i asked poi if he wanted me to test and he said yes. I told tom i didn't know it but we could replace it with another long weapon. He said he would speak to chan about it. He called me back and said master chan wanted him to teach me and i had to pay tom $100.00
I knew that was bull**** because chan doesn't even charge that much for a seminar form.
I could have learned it from any of my kung fu brothers for free.
After the sifu testing we had a meeting and master chan brought up about people missing a few forms here and there. He said i called him and told him i didn't know 3 section but i learned it. He said i did a great job with it when i tested and he didn't even know where i learned it!

That is why i got ****ed when tom hausse's student tried bashing us because i'm already not too happy with him.

The biggest reason is the training. I loved wah lum when i was in it and i would defend it like you guys are doing now. There were people who said we are more southern, we aren't northern mantis and i defended wah lum. When my kung fu brother (pong lai) returned from taiwan and i started training with him it was a different world. The training methods are way different, body movement, mechanics fa jing, etc.
It was real mantis, hard core and i wanted to learn mantis so that is why i left. I didn't learn mantis apps, movement, tech, etc in wah lum.
My eyes were opened to real kung fu training and that is why i left. Whey do you think all the wah lum guys who have tried us left wah lum. It is another world.
No i am not mad at poi, he is ****ed at us, ,a wah lum student started the whole bashing and we are getting the **** for it.

Attemps have been made to explain what happened but the Temple refuses any contact.


China village-
politics explained at a later date.
there is a reason for that right now. You will understand later



hua lin-
these are the forms i new in wah lum-
all the basic exercises as well as number 6 and 7
the 8 stances WITH the hand movements
- wah lum forms 1-6(yes i knew 6th. form)
-16 hands
-little open gate, straight form, saylok, little mantis, 7 kicks, lo han, 2 man form, leopard, little fan cha, 18 elbows, lok low 1 & 2,36 hands, fan cha, seven style fist form

weapons-
-right hand stick, 16 style stick, basic stick,plum flower stick, double daggers, continuous broadsword, basic broadsword, double b's, yin chin broadsword, flute, flute-gim, kwan do, tiger fork, gim, 2 handed gim, 9 ring broadsword, double axe, double hook, 2 man stick, 3 section stick, plum flower fan, double fire wheel, 2 handed 9 ring, di so gee, whip chain, basic 2 man stick,spear,army sword(not the usual curric. one), double daggers vs. empty hand.

i may have missed a few, i'm going by memory

[Lode Runner]

woliveri:

>Yes, I feel the Taiji classes at WL are 'empty' because (unless this has changed) they are not allowed to practice qi gong.<

Ah hah... so how you do define qi gong? Last session we did some "chi kung" (which, IIRC, is merely one of the many name permutations of qi gong) meditation, which involved bending our knees and moving our hands in certain ways. There's also Iron Palm training offered, and I think that push hands would also teach some of the basics in perceiving and utilizing chi as well. What specific qi gong exercises do you feel wah lum sifus neglect?

>I have learned an exercise called noi gung which is similar in description to one of the exercises posted in another thread (praying mantis qi gong) which also develops these types of skills.<

I don't see much in the way of chi utilization here. Just a bunch of stuff about massage, body conditioning, and letting someone beat you with a big stick so that you can learn to take a hit (kinda like the opposite of Iron Palm.) I wouldn't mind some body conditioning, but I figure that once I learn to maintain the proper postures, I can push around logs or strap on some ankle weights or do whatever regardless whether or not it's keeping with WL/TC tradition (for arm conditioning, I can simply use an extra heavy sword.)

>If you really want to learn and not pulling our chains, research qi gong (yang jwang ming has some books), research Chinese Medicine (there are many good books from redwing), and think about what you want as an end result. There is so much out there it's increadible but a good teacher can recognize an @ss coming a mile away. Be one with yourself, be up front and truthful. No BS. Make sure your own house is in order before visiting another.<

Sure, but I want to know what you're getting at first. Pushing around a log is simple strength training, nothing more. The addition of the horse stance/concentration probably made it a more effective form of strength training that turned out to be applicable in a fight but I fail to see how it's indicative of the lack of qi gong training in wah lum/taiji taught by WL sifus.

If you're talking about being able to paralyze people with a tap or knock them down without even touching them at all, well... I frankly doubt that any of that is "real." I think that at best being proficient with your chi allows you to act and react on a level beyond that of normal people because you yourself are not even aware of the things you are doing ; you simply "focus your chi" and bam, you are able to subtly and instinctively/subconsciously alter the way your body moves and functions. I think that one CAN do incredible things with their own chi (i.e. biofeedback stuff like making a certain part of your body warmer, speeding up your metabolism, altering your heart rhythm, etc.), but I've yet to see any reasonable proof of chi and chi alone being able to affect something external. Still, I have an open mind... I know that the human body is controlled by electricity and that flowing electricity creates magnetic fields (and vice versa), and along this same line of thinking, I do know a Reike healer who can't wear watches because they all mysteriously stop working within a matter of weeks, so if I do see the "external chi" phenomena I won't be overzealous in disproving it... I just won't automatically believe in it wholeheartedly, either.

I guess what it all boils down to it this: What exactly IS qigong, why doesn't WL teach it very well, and why do you think that it is imperative for fighters to possess?

[flem]

spiralstair, hua linlaoshi, samantis, others

from 18elders post we can see my point exactly. here we have a sifu doing things not only outside of the words on the alter, but unjust and immoral to the every day man. so is this sifu still a sifu, hell yes. why? what was the repercussion for acting this way? is he too valuable to be thrown out? i think you ought to take a look in the hen house.

[woliveri]

Lode Runner,

What exactly IS qigong, why doesn't WL teach it very well, and why do you think that it is imperative for fighters to possess?

Well, I just felt a tug on my chain so let me answer with this. Why not ask MC? Go to the temple and practice stake standing in his presence and see what he says. Why do traditional taiji masters emphasize qi gong as the root of their training? These questions are for you to answer, not me.

[Lode Runner]

>Well, I just felt a tug on my chain so let me answer with this. Why not ask MC? Go to the temple and practice stake standing in his presence and see what he says. Why do traditional taiji masters emphasize qi gong as the root of their training? These questions are for you to answer, not me.<

Argh. You want me to drive to orlando and pester a grandmaster with some inane and insulting newbie questions about how he teaches Taji and qi gong? Now I'm feeling a tug on MY chain. You know, even if I did go and do that incredibly stupid thing it wouldn't be as effective as asking it here. Here, I'm not bound to accepting one person's word alone. Here, I can't mishear anything. Plus if you're right and WL doesn't use qi gong properly, MC can't tell me ANYTHING useful because I have no "baseline" to compare it to. He'll tell me qigong is blah blah blah and done a certain way and that will be that. Now if OTOH you can TELL me what qigong means to you and what's wrong with WL qigong specifically then I can ask my sifu and compare what you've said to his explanation.

Believe me, I am more than willing to do the legwork when the time comes. But when trying to judge a given system objectively, I need to either 1) do a ton of research and become an expert on the subject myself or 2) know what outsider's generally think of it. I might do the former eventually, but there's a certain logical series of steps here. I'm not going to go around buying books and interviewing everyone in sight about something about which I only know bits and pieces.

You tell me that they don't teach qigong. This is contradicted by my own experience, so I assume that you mean that they just don't teach it right. I read the link you gave me and I still can't really see what vital piece they're lacking that makes their TC feel "empty" to you. And you know what? I could sit here and buy books and grill grandmasters and I would probably still have a tough time guessing at what you meant. So TELL ME. Or at least give me another link.

Or you can let your replies remain meaningless gibberish to all those who don't already know exactly where you're coming from... your choice.

[Lode Runner]

18elders:

Thanks for the explanation. No matter what happened, I find it incredible that MC wouldn't talk to you personally before kicking you out.

I'd like it if you could clarify one thing, though: Are you saying that wah lum is less effective than pong lai or are you saying that it's merely less "mantis"? I care less about it being an effective mantis style than I do about it being an effective style period.

***
btw, my dad travels to clearwater occasionally... would you mind if I dropped by and took a look sometime?

[18elders]

Master chan didn't kick me out, i left on my own to better my kung fu training.

Do i think pong lai is more effective, yes, way more.
You learn what you are doing, you don't just learn a form and then are expected to dream up the applications on your own.
We learn the form, 2 person to the form, drills for the apps for the forms etc. We also learn mantis fighting theory and we drill it.
Others will tell you we are spoon fed, we are taught the way you should be.
Wether or not wah lum has much mantis is not the point, you won't learn how to use your kung fu.


Our school is in tampa and yes you can stop by anytime.

[flem]

18elders

i think i told you before, no one quits WL, just like the cia-hahaha. you were thrown out, like me!

[spiralstair]

18 Elders said, "Wether or not wah lum has much mantis is not the point, you won't learn how to use your kung fu."
And Flem was the guy who didn't teach you! HAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Seriously though, it sounds like you are happy where you are now. Just don't assume everyone else will have the same experiece as your own. That's like always expecting an opponent to be 'where they're supposed to', a habit one can get into from doing too many 2 person sets.

[18elders]

I have heard that before, whoever quits later on it is you were thrown out.
The sad part is that your kung fu brothers you trained with for years won't associate with you anymore out of fear MC will get ****ed at them. One of my kung fu brothers came to tampa twice and never even gave me a call.
Last year we did some chinese new year shows and my shr-fu(ponglai) invited our old wah lum shr-fu(AD), to join in with us( you know that thing on the altars, learn kindness and fellowship) Tom hausse had his student video tape it and then he called master chan and told him i was doing lion with AD.
He couldn't call me and see what was up, hell no. He has to keep his nose nice and brown!.

I agree with you that the WL organization needs to look at why people leave.
I know he is ****ed at pong lai, he thinks he is stealing his students, how do you steal a student? They leave on their own.
When someone comes to check out our school, pong lai always tells them to go do a wah lum class and come back and do ours to see what you like. How is that stealing students?

[flem]

18elders

yes, it sometimes seems that things like that are designed to show you who your real friends are. that was the point i made to all of the WL people, that just because they're in, and maybe for a long time, does not necessarily say anything for their character- though it should.

spiralstair

i didn't get the joke using my name, should i?

[NorthernMantis]

You learn what you are doing, you don't just learn a form and then are expected to dream up the applications on your own.

That's lie.Where are you getting this stuff?You don't dream up the application and you are taught them as you go.You sir are a liar.How come I was taught as I went along?

Judging from the way you have been acting I can tell why you weren't taught any applications.You think a bitter person like you can learn apps. just because you got $$?


Wether or not wah lum has much mantis is not the point, you won't learn how to use your kung fu.

Oh yeah?Well tell me Mr. Hotshot how come I have used the techniques from my forms againts diferent styles and they have worked?If you need examples I'll tell you in no particular order

From wah lum 1st form:

1)The arm bar at the begining of the form when you bring out the mantis hooks into the cat stance
2)The toe kick to the groin variation of said technique
3)The heel kick when you simlutaniously scrape of a grab and punch into a horse stance.
4)The chop striking down at the opponents ankle as they kick and you are in a cat stance while you are defending long and soft over head.
5)The side kick after the last move in sequence
6) The The grabbing and pulling in and punching
7)The short hard block twisting into a lady horse stance and and chraging foward with a double punch (knocked the guy down flat on his butt)
8)The backfist when you go into a lday horse stance and then turn and upper cut (I have used this multiple times minus the uppercut which I do not follow with)
9)The cross block in front of the chest followed by the back fist
10)The move where you swing your arms in a circular motion and you come down into a half kneeling half butterfly stance while using a long soft soft defend over head and a hard short denfed down in front right before the infamous monkey steals the peach (I blocked two hits from top and bottom in that position almost simultaneously:D )
11)The high cirlcle punch
etc..

From straight form: (This is where I had based most of my fighting techniques a couple of years ago)

1)The block after the short hop and pivot followed by a straight punch and you shift your weight on to the ball of your back foot followed by a charging straight punch in a horse stance (Note:One of my strongest and most effective techniques plus I've found out the opponents with similar size and weight to me will be knocked down with a well structured punch and opponents who outweigh me will temporarily get knocked off balance)
2)The grab and armbar/break before the elbow to the ribs
3)The sliding/charging backfist after the low x block
4) The block after the backfist when you pivot or hop into a horse stance
5)The cirlcular upward block followed by an uppercut followed by a charging double elbow (note:I never used the elbow to avoid any serious injury so I substituted the elbow by a double vertical/80% punch)
6)The upward scissor block
7)Th footwork from the form to get my knee behind them and knock them off balance and I have knoecked someone on the floor by just using a hill climbing/foward stance and simple strainght punch

To shorten this up a bit..

From little mantis:
1)The hooking of the attackers wrist while simultaneously sweeping the front leg and using a flat ridge hand to the throat (hitting with the edge of the palm or forearm)
2)The mantis hook to the throat variation of said tecnique
3)The low side kick and low inside kick to attack,stop a kick,and distract the opponent.

From say lok:

1)The blocking circle motion againts a kick followed simultaneously by a low circle puch.
2)The two closed fisted blocks (one vertical and one horizontal) done with the stomps

The all outside method (I don't know it in wah lum terms but my taiji mantis friend told me it was named that way) from drills

Trapping from drills

One knife defence techinque from self defense drills (my brother was playing around though) although I somewhat forgot this technique

Etc...

That's roughly 26 examples mentioned not including that some examples consited of more than 2 moves mkaing it roughly around 40+ techniques that I have used againts live resisting opponents of diferent styles and that's not all of what I have used.

Now tell me if wah lum doesn't teach me how to use my kung fu how how come I was able to use all of that under pressure againts different styles and sometimes againts bigger people?My kung fu is not even that good compared to my older kung fu borthers.I pale in comparison.

There was a quote from a internal master whose name I cannot recall in B.K Frantzis' book called The Secrets of Ba gua,Hsing Yi, and Tai Chi and it went soething simliar like this "It doesn't matter what style you know but it's how much kung fu you know [have?] that matters in the end".

18elders you didn't know how to use your kung fu then that's your problem and don't blame it on someone else other than yourself.Don't forget that kung fu takes time to achieve and it cannot be leanred in a short while.I takes time and patience.I have been practicing almost 5 years now and I'm just starting to learn how to fight and the techniques are just startng to get natural to me.Perseverance is a jewel, a God-given gift.I'm glad I stuck it out this long and now I'm starting to see the benifits.

If you got something againts si gung why don't you go challenge him if your so tough?Since you like to bash wah lum alot saying how wah lum doesn't work and doesn't teach you how to fight then why don't you come down to the headqurters and tell it to si gugng in his face?After all if the system is obsolete won't si gung's fighting ability be obsolete also?

Why you weren't taught the applications I do not know.Why you wnet through all that I don not know either but don't blame the faults of others one everyone.

Why is it that everytime when someone is interested in wah lum you immediately have to attack them trying to make wah lum look bad.

Attacking other people because you want to get back at Joe Schmoe (you said it your self ) in a different school isn't responding, its cowardice.

[NorthernMantis]

Please excuse any grammatical errors in my previous psot thankyou

[flem]

northernmantis

you are very easy to irritate. what does that big upside fire sign mean again? your disposition makes you next in line to be a sifu- just kidding

[NorthernMantis]

Hey Flem-

lol I'm not irritated at all.It's hard to tell what people's emotions are when all you can see is their writing.

No offense taken from the joke.To tell the truth I don't plan or want to be a sifu. I don't feel I am worthy enough for the position. It takes a lot to be one both physically and mentally not including knowing your kung fu very well and I stated I'm just learning how to use it correctly.

The whole idea of the post was to prove 18elders wrong with so mnay examples since he always asks for a lot so I gave him more than enough in a serious tone

.:cool:

Later

[BigCountry]

You are putting the cart before the horse when you speak of blending styles. You might want to try a style before you go "blending" them.

Darn, I wanted to take a few classes and then create my own style: Wah Lum Tam Tui in the Eagle’s Shadow. (Hmm. Tough crowd.)

Anyway, I have a question for you traditional CMA’s: is it cool for a student to study another martial art if it’s for sport, like wrestling (or Judo). Is that considered counterproductive to the Kung Fu curriculum? Assuming someone had this much time, would it be disrespectful?

[flem]

bigcountry

very good point. one that will surely bring no logical answer. allong the same lines, what about boxing- is it awaste of time. and where do the limits get set? tcma says that lifting weights will hinder performance, but is lifting stones and the like simply very primitave weight training. i think it is all a control/politic issue and nothing else.

[flem]

18elders

under the lineage listing for that new site, the professor law that i referred to in the little open gate post is pictured there as lo kwan yu- in case you're interested.

[18elders]

ah my friend, bad mood again?

from your examples, i am not talking about the most easiest and obvious of apps. you have missed so many from your examples, many takedowns.
- first form, mantis catches the cicada, that is only half of the actual technique
- block his ankle defend your head- have face punched in by his other hand.
-you missed some good one's in the beginning run of little mantis

are you going to nick's tournament?
love to go over your apps with you.

why do any challenges have to go through the temple?
can't you guys speak for yourselves? They don't have any faith in anyone else beside the temple?

If you go back and read some of hua lin's posts, he said he has been at the temple for about 11 years and master chan has only shown him a few apps.

If you ever get up to tampa, come take our class, i'd be happy to show you anything in my wah lum forms you have missed.

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

you ever watch a movie -- like a horror flick -- and want to scream at the dumb chick not to open that door? there are a lot of us "other" MA's (not PL or WL) who think this board is entertaining as heck and have been following it for a lonnnnng time -- and i feel the need to yell at the dumb chick:

flem is a coward with a big mouth
throwing stones is much easier than facing your opponent head on isn't it, you coward -- yep -- this is very liberating. how anyone can take you seriously is a mystery -- at least until you show your face. And talk about brown noses -- this AD guy, 18elders & pong lai must think you're a good little puppy -- don't they.

oh and, load runner-- everyone knows your PL -- god you're clever. *yawn*

[flem]

alwaystraining

i don't know why i am replying but how do you see me as a coward? because i don't have my name in the profile i guess, because if you are referring to the posts and the concerns that i presented you could not be further from the truth. i let my opinion be known at the time of my departure from WL and there was no give and take, in fact i only wasted the effort. who do you feel i need to show my face to, and who is my opponent?

[woliveri]

flem, AT is trolling. Don't waste your time.

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

-- because i'm sure that you, unlike those WL zombies, can think for yourself and answer what you want.

does E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G have to be spelled out for you PL's? you're either really dumb or merely acerbic in a pathetic small kind of way (yeah, i thought i'd hand you a big word to attack like a pack of dogs).

your band of 'outcasts" have a problem with tom hausse -- seemed pretty chrystal in the last few posts.

so come on then flem, tell the board -- we're all just DYING to know who you are! or will you hide behind your "dignity" -- "oh i don't have to prove anything to anyone" HA HA! -- let me spell this one out for you: C-O-W-A-R-D

;)

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by 18elders
ah my friend, bad mood again?

from your examples, i am not talking about the most easiest and obvious of apps. you have missed so many from your examples, many takedowns.
- first form, mantis catches the cicada, that is only half of the actual technique
-you missed some good one's in the beginning run of little mantis


Hey 18elders you misunderstood my post-- I wasn't saying I know those apps. ,I was saying that I used all of those techniques succesfully under pressure againts real opponents of diferent styles .

You said that wah lum doesn't teach you how to use your kung fu and I said well how can you explain the fact that I have used my kung fu and I gave examples.


- block his ankle defend your head- have face punched in by his other hand.

The guy didn't punch my face and I was too low for his reach.Like I said I wasn't explaining applications I was giving examples of the ones that worked for me.


>>are you going to nick's tournament?

I'd love to.I will try to go but if we do meet we have to set all politics aside.


why do any challenges have to go through the temple?

1)Well they are the head authority and going around fighting over nonesense would make the school look bad.
2)That's the place that you are trying to attack isn't it?Why go for the small stuff when you can have the whole enchilada.


can't you guys speak for yourselves?

Yes we can but not when it might jeapordise the schools image.


If you go back and read some of hua lin's posts, he said he has been at the temple for about 11 years and master chan has only shown him a few apps.

Ok, but what does that have to do with the fact that I used my kung fu when you said in my style I couldn't?

[flem]

alwaystraining

i'll go with the dignity

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

cowards, the lot of you: you come on here and open your big mouths, spewing venem and criticism. you hide behind the anonymity this thing affords you. you're not martial artists. marital artists show integrity and strength without boasting about thier ability or degrading others' -- oh and, they don't hide behind a pretense of dignity.

you are small people with a small axe to grind.

so here's a suggestion for you: put up or shut up -- and if you put up, have the courage to tell your rival to his face rather than whining about it on a public forum.

OH BY THE WAY 18ELDERS: you should look into the laws regarding defamation of character -- if load runner had been legitimate, you could have been on very thin ice my friend.

[isol8d]

"Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once."
- William Shakespeare, "Julius Caesar, Act II, Sc. 2, line 32."

It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

You should really avoid general stereotypification. I'd say the majority of people on here are not cowards. There is a lot of big mouth bravado, and there are some cowardice remarks, but in the end, we all are brothers in hard work. Regardless of style or disassociation.

**** it, you're making me want to go hug a tree :D

Ok, so I just want to go punch a tree, don't tell the environmentalists on me.

[18elders]

which persons character are you in question about.

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

yes, i have been using this anonymity to prove a point -- see?

brothers my *ss. 18elders and flem show brotherliness when it suits and benefits them, so add "selfish" to their character profiles.

--and using prose to make a point is pretentious. just say what you want to say and stop trying to sound like wise old monk.

my name is Dan Fletcher -- there.

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

your's and flem's -- oh, i'm sorry -- was that your attempt at sarcasm? coward.

[isol8d]

Nice to meet ya Dan Fletcher. I'm just saying most of the cr*p on here is talk. Like you said. I know that this message board is looked down upon for it. I know several people that won't read here because of it.

Oh yeah, I am pretentious, it's a character flaw.

What style of mantis do you train in?

My name is Ryan, btw. I'm at a level in my training where politics don't matter to me. Of course, that means I haven't been training for that long, a little over a year.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

18Elders
That's a pretty good list of forms. I was under the impression you were lacking some of the curriculum forms like having to get 3-section from TH for testing. I wasn't intending to attack you or anyone else I listed in that post. Just establishing that some of the complaints come from students who didn't go real far in Wah Lum. Also, the fact that MC has shown me a limited number of apps is due more to the fact that most of my material was learned from Temple instructors and not directly from MC himself. I never had the time to be there during off hours when he's more likely to show you something. He retired from teaching group classes quite a few years ago and retired from teaching privates awhile back as well. The current Temple students are all Mimi's students. So what are you learning these days? Do you learn 7 Star and Plum Flower etc. separately or is Master Shr making Pong Lai a distinct style? Actually, let's kick this to a new thread.

Flem
I've been doing some weight training over the past 2 years and I hate it more than anything but I have been able to put on some weight (worked my way up from skinny to thin:D ). Unfortunately my Kung Fu is beginning to suffer. I need to offset the weight training with intense stretching. I have to adjust for the extra weight I put on so it's slowed me down a bit. I'm also much tighter so like I said I need to invest more time into stretching.

NorthernMantis
Glad to see you're applying what you learned. Keep up the training.

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

pleasure is mine, ryan. i am learning plum flower mantis. my teacher got booted out of his system, so he doesn't pretend to have a lineage, he's just teaching me what he knows -- and he doesn't complain about his old teacher or his former kf brothers no matter what his experiences may have been. now that's dignity.

[Lode Runner]

>oh and, load runner-- everyone knows your PL -- god you're clever. *yawn*<

No, I'm a newbie. In fact, I'm still considering WL because what 18elders has so far says still makes me think that it all could be just an unfortunate misunderstanding.

So far, the only ones here that have acted like jerks have been wah-lum guys (with the exception of mr. being inquisitive=pulling my chain). They've insulted my attempts at research, attacked 18elders & co. for no apparent reason that I can fathom, and now you're accusing me of some stupid frickin' anti-WL conspiracy. If their statements are unfounded than give me a counterpoint; calling them liars is just pointless. Granted, only a minority of the pro-WL people are acting in this manner but I feel that they are ruining it for everyone (and ruining my thread in the process.)

[Lode Runner]

P.S. it is LODE runner not load runner.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Lode Runner
"I think that this makes my point precisely. I want to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel so when the going gets tough, I'LL KNOW WHAT I'M STRIVING FOR."

Personally I think you should be striving for your personal best, your own enrichment, not a certificate or certain number of forms etc. I understand goals both long term and short term but I think your focus needs to be on what is currently in front of you. Seeing advanced material in Wah Lum will certainly light a fire in your training but quite a lot can happen on your way there. What you might want to set for a long term goal is something that's not style specific. Set a goal of being a Sifu, Grand Champion in competition or one of the worlds deadliest humans. Then focus on what needs to be done to reach that goal. If your goal is training in Wah Lum to reach the form So Lo Sow you might get there sooner than you thought yet know nothing at all.

There are Tai Chi and Qi Gong Masters in China who practice intensly without knowing exactly what the results of that practice will bring. They are discovering some very amazing things. One Master I met can cause ripples to run up and down his arm at will and can extend his Qi outside his body to others. I have seen and felt this first hand. He did not go into his training with these goals in mind but discovered them along the way. Something to think about.

[woliveri]

Nice post HL. I think we are in sync here although I don't know what a So Lo Sow is. Is that opposite of a So Hi Sow? :D

He did not go into his training with these goals in mind but discovered them along the way. Something to think about.

This is exactly right. If a qi gong practioner looks for these things in practice he/she will never have them.

Would MC ever send one of his students to train with such a Master? When I was at the temple MC always said Qi Gong was BS.

[NorthernMantis]

18elders I'm still waiting for your response.

You said that wah lum doens't teach you how to use your kung fu and I gave you examples of the ones I used, even though you misunderstood and mistook it for something else.What do you say to that?

[flem]

lode runner

as i have said a long time ago on another thread, the kung fu is awesome, and i am perhaps the last person who should give that advice(because of my departure). and like i said on this thread just mind your own business and train, let others squabble about who knows what and why. also, WL teaches far more than just fighting skill-

[Frogman]

:D "Ribhit":p

[18elders]

sorry for the delay, been busy with work, not much time to play.
You said you have used them, did shelly teach you the apps and drills or you just applied it yourself?
Like i said before, there are many more advanced apps you will miss. It is not just about the apps but the proper way to execute them.
It is basically impossible to explain the difference i am talking about without you training with us to actually experience the difference.

always training-
no it wasn't a sarcastic question, really didn't know who you were talking about. still don't agree with your statement.
What's your problem anyway, Loderunner asked a question about my experience in the system and i told him. I'm not making **** up.
Someone asked what my opinion about something is and everytime i tell them someone jumps all over what i said. It is my opinion and experience, if you don't like it fine but you don't have to attack everyone about what they say.
Who is your teacher, were do you train and who was his teacher?

[NorthernMantis]

18elders-

Well it's more like a little of both and not only sifu Shelly. I was lucky to train under many instructors, I thank God for that, and differentsifus in the style like Hua Lin,big Mike,sifu Tu,Sifu Mimi,sifu Geroge,among others. It was great learning from many different experiences.

When I first began I would ask the same question about a certain technique to all my instructors to hear their answer.I used to love doing that since I got the same reply with different variation. Even though I was too young, and not mature enough to understand, I realise now that I was doing the right thing and it helped me better my kung fu more than I would have expected.

I think I know what you mean.It's never easy to to explain something that needs to be felt or showed visually.

Peace:cool:

[isol8d]

18Elders -

Would you say your time and effort at WL was a waste? In other words, do you think that the fundamental, not the advanced, was taught correctly? As I have said, I am not far in my training, and I don't have as much time as I would like to dedicate to it. Or perhaps a better question would be, when do you feel that WL personally stopped being beneficial?

I guess this could really be an open question for all of the Ex-Wah Lum people.

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

LOAD runner: as in LOAD of bull -- use the time you put into questioning whether or not to take ONE HOUR of your time and watch a class. now i know you;re PL -- and you missed that I am not WL -- and one more thing, if you are a newbie, let me make one thing perfectly clear: NO ONE IN A TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS SCHOOL WHO GIVES A DA** ABOUT RESPECT WOULD HAVE THE NERVE TO REFER TO HIS SIFU & HIS SI GUNG BY HIS/HER FIRST NAME, particularly when speaking to people who already breed disrespect toward those particular individuals.

18elders: would you also like to know his teacher? and his teacher? and his teacher? and his teacher? and his teacher? it seems to be your MO -- discredit others and maybe they will like you -- maybe they will believe you -- maybe they will turn on WL, too. pal, i'm not fooled by you -- let me explain something: you are not clever. anyone who believes your rhetoric is a fool or too young to know better. don't pat yourself on the back too much.

you behave as a petulant child. be a man. this is my challenge for you and your friends: i challenge you to refrain from speaking negatively about WL and it's current practitioners. i guarentee that you can't manage it -- i guarentee you will use some excuse (like simply providing a requested opnion) to speak ill.

go on then. i challenge you. and let me add this: everytime you or your buddies fail, i will be there to point it out. you don't need to know all about me -- all you need to know is that i'm going to be a big pain in your a**.

[BigCountry]

About Wah Lum,

Who's their housekeeper?
What do they keep in their house?
What the world is in that ROOM,
What they got in that ROOM?
What about Diamonds and Gold is that what they keep in they mouth?
What the world is in that CASE, what they got in that CASE?
That qi don't come out till next year, where the heck did they get it?
Man, that's a whole month's tuition gone, where the heck did you spend it?
And what the world is in that BAG, what they got in that BAG?
Are they custom-made, custom-paid, or they just custom-fitted?
What's the deal with Wah Lum anyway?

;)

Thanx in advance,
Big Country and Ludacris

[Frogman]

:o

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

poetic

[Jack Squat]

isol8d-

As an ex-WLer, I will give you my opinion of what the strengths/weaknesses of WL are. Please keep in mind that this is only my opinion. I honestly am neutral on the subject.

I DO NOT think that WL was a waste of time for me. The fundamentals are excellent and you will definitely get a solid foundation. Although there isn't as much talent in the system these days, there is still plenty around to keep you motivated by observing. And of course MC is always motivating. He is a living treasure and I definitely respect his ability. WL has a wealth of information available for those who are hungry (and lucky) enough to find it.

The average newbie will be very happy there for several years (5+?)

My critisms of WL are that the Chinese instructors could improve in their communications skills. I'm not insulting, just being honest. I cannot speak Chinese so I am not implying anything by this comment, (their English is much better than my Chinese!) it's just that concepts such as fa jing were not ever mentioned/explained/touched on. I don't know if it is because they feel it's too hard to explain to non-Chinese, or that they don't really know it, or what. I just know that it was never even mentioned (to me or my kf brothers). In the tai chi class, it's even worse, as the instructors teach by example but lack the ability/motivation/? to explain fundamental concepts-they can do it, they can show it, but aren't that great at teaching it (at least to non-Chinese). To know what I mean, imagine trying to teach KF or TC to someone who is deaf and can't read. It would be really hard to explain advanced concepts-heck even simple ones!

Also, the mantis applications were only taught on a superficial level. As I grew as a martial artist and secretly learned from other individuals (yes, it had to be kept a secret), I began asking questions like...

Everyone knows that all mantis is based on a basic 12 keyword formula. It's even listed in the WL handbook. Yet we only ever practiced the first three concepts (and even that was only taught simplisticly). I had to go outside the system to get the rest. I searched for it in WL and no one could tell me, it was one of those questions that you don't ask. In addition, we were required to memorize that the mantis system is made up of 7 long, 8 short, 8 hard, and 12 soft techniques, but no one could show me what those techniques were. Everyone can give examples of a short, hard block, etc, but what were THE techniques that made up the mantis framework?

And finally, the forms have become somewhat "wushuized". Just look at MC on the living legends tape. Contrast how he does his forms with how most of the current WLers do their forms. Also, when did the wushu weapons become "mandatory" for demonstrations? C'mon guys! It's embarrassing! That's the reason so many non-WLers critisize your forms.

WL has had some phenominal Sifu pass through their doors. Some were great fighters, but IMHO they were already advanced martial artists when they arrived and they used concepts that they had already acquired and then applied them to their WL material.

Maybe Hao Lin can give some insight on whether this has changed (it's been quite awhile since I was active in the system). If these things were changed and this information was taught (and the politics that 18 Elders referred to were dropped) WL would be a dream come true. My hope is that honest critism can help to make these things happen. Hao Lin seems to be a ray of hope.

Again, this is all only my opinion, just one person who had a limited number of experiences. I am not Chinese and don't speak Chinese so one could argue that maybe I should've taken the initiative and learned Chinese-the road does go both ways.
Maybe it limited my training, maybe it did not.

I really feel that posters such as Northern Mantis (although he seems quite quick tempered) and SaMantis are happy in the system and they appear to be on the path thats right for them. I wish them the best of luck and am confident that they will become accomplished martial artists. Again, I don't feel that the time I invested was a waste, but I would do a few things differently. My advice- avoid the politics, always train hard, take every seminar that you can (both in and out of WL) and search for answers outside the system, just keep your mouth shut while doing so.

WL has an excellent mix of Tam Tui, Jut Sow Mantis, and the 5 Southern Families. The more you study each individual system, the greater your understanding of WL.

Jack

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

jack, well put -- i can't answer to any of it, but your critique is well put

isol8ed, no style is right for everyone -- people leave for many different reasons, either real or perceived.

[woliveri]

Very good post JS.
I would also say that WL was not a waste of time for me. The atmosphere of the Temple, privates and group class with MC, and the forms all are great memories for me. Often I forgot myself, became tranquil while practicing and it felt great.

I'm not sure where your coming from with the Chinese instructors. The only ones I knew of were Ben and Tu and they spoke perfect english. Musta been someone after I left.

[18elders]

your a joke.
the only person you are a pain in the ass to is your mother.
LODERUNNER IS NOT PONGLAI
why can't you answer my question, sure who were all the teachers in the lineage.
come on little man, answer the question.
go back an read all the posts, IT WAS A WL STUDENT(WHITEWHIRLYWIND)WHO STARTED BASHING PONGLAI, WE RESPONDED BACK.
freedom of speech, plant your challenge in your pain.

[18elders]

i had many good experiences in wl, i went to china with MC twice and on my own a few more times.
I made some great friends in it.
Art trained us hard and i liked it.
I agree with what jack squat said.
There was always things i felt were lacking in my training and that void was filled with my training in ponglai.
wl basics are good although it is fine details that are missing that make the big difference in things.
Wl may be the best choice for you in your area and that is great, i had no choice until ponglai returned from taiwan.
if you have never driven a lamborghini you don't know what you are missing. Once you do, then you can compare it to your vette and appreciate the difference. If you never take the opportunity to experience the lamborghini you will never know what you have missed.

[Lode Runner]

I can't really think of anything interesting to say right now so I'll just feed the troll (my appologies to the people who have made intelligent replies, but I'm just too tired to tackle them at all the moment):

>LOAD runner: as in LOAD of bull -- use the time you put into questioning whether or not to take ONE HOUR of your time and watch a class. now i know you;re PL<

None of these questions could be answered by watching the class. I already know what I'm going to see; I've sat in on at about a half-dozen other MA classes in the past month or two so by now I know what I can and cannot get out watching them. I'm not going to be able to tell whether or not it's "real" mantis. I'm not going to be able to judge their sparring accurately because I've yet to see much sparring at all no matter where I go. I'm not going to be able to tell whether or not this style is too flashy to be effective or anything like that. And I'm DA MN sure not going to be able to get a feel for the politics (which at this point is probably my primary concern.) At best I'll get a little bit better at judging the hard/soft and linear/circular aspects of the art but at worst I'll be so wowed at the flashy moves that I'll rush into something that's not right for me or I'll insult my Sifu when I express a keen interest in WL and then later decide to go with another style at another school instead (assuming he even allows such a thing.)

Believe me, I could easily spare the hour or two to sit in on the class and ask a few questions. Whether or not you agree with them, you must admit that I do have my reasons for not wanting to rush into this and they do NOT involve me being affiliated with PL in any way, shape, or form.

>-- and one more thing, if you are a newbie, let me make one thing perfectly clear: NO ONE IN A TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS SCHOOL WHO GIVES A DA** ABOUT RESPECT WOULD HAVE THE NERVE TO REFER TO HIS SIFU & HIS SI GUNG BY HIS/HER FIRST NAME, particularly when speaking to people who already breed disrespect toward those particular individuals.<

There's a huge frickin' difference between saying "oh yeah I was talking to Harry the other day..." and someone asking me who my *Sifu* is (i.e. the context is we already know that he's a Sifu so therefore repeating the title would be quite redundant) and me answering "Harry Lo." Besides the fact that I am not aware of any chinese taboo that holds the first name of your sifu absolutely sacred under all circumstances (and if there is, I should have been informed of it somewhere in my pile of rulebooks), I also was wondering whether or not "Lo" was a common name so I specifically put the "Harry" in because he is a cool guy and I am honored to study under him (and the Si Hings/Si Jzes he has taught) and in turn I wished to honor him by properly identifying him and his school (which is why I posted the link to their website as well.)

Still think I'm just another piece in the PL conspiracy trying to brainwash you guys? :p

[yu shan]

Jack Squat

Gratifyingly put brother, could not have said it better. Here Here!

18 Elders

I know where your coming from . Jack Squat put it perspectively well don`t you think?

[yu shan]

Isol8d
Like Flem and many others have said, WL is an awesome style. It was a great travel, by no means was it a waste of time. I have fantastic memories lost alot of sweat made alot of friends[hopefully to come full circle]

Flem
I appreciate the fox in the hen house, I relate ! As for Northern Mantis , With the Pea**** Feathers open, In case of dispute to the school, wouldn`t it be customary to position this violent yet skillful student to defend the school?

Hua Lin
The higher you go in WL the more it hurts MC when you leave. It`s all about money! Ask anyone! There needs to be an exchange of energy here folks. The Shrgong needs to pass down knowledge,not just to family. This exchange of energy I can explain, which is not happening at the temple. It`s too one sided, ex-wlmer`s know!

TaiChiBob
the shrfu that is not also a student is neither, very cool! Isn`t MA training life long? Peace Brother!

[spiralstair]

18 elders, yu shan.
The most amazing thing about your continued interest in the subject of WL is HOW YOU CAN'T LET IT GO. Why not just set it 'free' and allow a little more internal space inside yourselves for something new to occur. If you are really so sure of your own experience, why seek out others to back you up?

Like attracts like, and I think you can begin to see that happening here with the new members 'input' on this thread.

Lode Runner needs his own Forum:
Entitled People and their IMportant Concerns
This Forum should certainly get a lot of interest from those people whose own neediness has to override everyone else. Unfortunately, this totally modern person can never recognize their own behavior(a common trait in Entitled people), and so no one would ever read the posts.

[isol8d]

To be fair Spiralstair, I asked 18elders and the others about their experiences on WL. It's good to be informed.

[spiralstair]

isol8d:
It's good to be informed.

What can the apple that's fallen off the branch tell you about the tree?

Only this: It isn't growing up there anymore.

[flem]

spiralstair

what can the apple tell you if it falls from a deseased tree-new life?

[isol8d]

Apple's don't grow that well here in Florida, but beyond that, knowing the pitfalls that former students have fallen into, can hopefully allow me to avoid them.

It's also curiosity. :D

[spiralstair]

Flem:

with the exception of Jack and woliveri, all the 'apples' criticising WL on this thread are from the same branch, which now , fortunately for the tree, has fallen off.
Sort of like a natural pruning, and the pruned bits keep yabbering on and on and on....

[Olethros]

Jack Squat


And finally, the forms have become somewhat "wushuized". Just look at MC on the living legends tape. Contrast how he does his forms with how most of the current WLers do their forms. Also, when did the wushu weapons become "mandatory" for demonstrations? C'mon guys! It's embarrassing! That's the reason so many non-WLers critisize your forms.

What I've heard is that WL has had a problem with other schools videotaping WL forms and claiming those forms as their own. As a result, many Sifu's will change the forms slightly for tournaments often times spicing them up for competition.

I know a WL Sifu who actually has a videotape of a non-WL school doing WL first form at a tournament.

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

sure i can tell you my teacher's name, it's Sifu Craig Barnes. know him?

would you like to start with the "yo mamma's so big..." jokes, too? someone told you a while back to grow up. according to your details you were born in 1963. could have fooled me (bite bite).

look at yourself, i've seen you. you're an overweight slow undisceplined waste. pathetic. poor. sad. you're bitter and mean spirited. i'm not here to hurt you. i just want to make sure that everything you say is taken with that proverbial grain o' salt

yes, yes, i read the posts and, no, www didn't start it. in fact, www's very first post was on 12/18/01 @ 3:23am GMT -- and it was in a thread you started on 11/5/01 @ 12:06am GMT. don't tangle with me loser, i'll call up all your old posts and stick them in your face.

how do you catch a fish? using bait. not a very CREATIVE strategy, but it's been very effective for you so far. maybe one day everyone will turn on your old Si Gung and your rival, tom hausse. will that please you? then will you relent? will you finally feel justified and fulfilled?

one thing i have noticed. the 2 people who have been villified on these threads have never once responded. god that must gut you. you're not even important enough to be acknowledged.


MY OLD FRIEND FLEM!!!! SHUT UP COWARD! NOT EVEN MARGINALLY CLEVER!!! TELL US WHO YOU ARE!!!!!


ah well. have a good weekend.

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

please don't think that the "irony" of my posts is lost on me -- it's purely intentional

[NorthernMantis]

Woah there AT no need for the name calling. I can understanding why you're angry but name calling is not the way. How about trying to discuss your opposing view?I reply to 18elders because I like arguing with the guy.

P.S.-

Before anyone jumps on me about nemae calling I have not done so.

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

i have seen you and your kf brothers and sisters try to have intelligent discussions on this point.

it is fruitless because these two people simply do not understand rational thinking.

they speak out of their bitterness. rather than standing back to appreciate the things they did learn, they continually use this venue to vomit bile.

they never stop because they are small and will always be small. i just want to make sure that if any legitimate newbies do come on to ask questions, they get answers that are unbiased by a personal vendetta -- which by they way, is now a published fact, thank you mr 18elders.

as for name calling -- well, i can be small, too.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by Jack Squat


I really feel that posters such as Northern Mantis (although he seems quite quick tempered)

Although it hurt hearing that I deserved to read it. It's ironic that I'm just a shy kid outside kung fu life.:D

AT-

I know what you mean.You have to understand that some intentionally want you to argue back and that's how you will get cauht up in the whole thing.

Name calling wont help people understand and the madder anyone gets the less they will understand.It's cool I know you mean well.

[flem]

spiralstair

in the wizard of oz the trees kept their apples from being picked

[18elders]

My post was: how long did chan wan ching train with lks?
How is that question bashing anyone?


Here is whitewhirlywinds post.
The 2 schools were wah lum and pong lai.




I once traveled to watch and participate in a community celebration. To my surprise, there were two kung fu schools to perform at the exhibition. As a sincere student myself, I was excited at the opportunity and settled in and watched the two schools.

-FIRST PARAGRAPH IS BULL****, THEY ARE A WAH LUM STUDENT AND THEY KNEW WE WOULD BE THERE. OH NO, TO THEIR SURPRISE!!!

The first school presented themselves in the same uniforms. Each member of the school carried themselves in a positive way. The teacher said very little; he only gave encouragement to his students. His focus seemed to be on his school and their actions.

The second school’s students also carried themselves in a positive way. And the school’s teachers also encouraged the nervously excited students. There was no difference between the two schools before each performed.






The second school, who seemed to have no discernable uniform, went first. The school opened with a lion dance performed by young children. The crowd loved it! I clapped and laughed too! Then the school did various forms and two-person exercises. Some exercises and drills were tight, but the majority seemed loose. The teachers participated in many exercises and drills. But the school just seemed preoccupied?

- OKAY ALWAYSTRAINING, HERE A WAH LUM STUDENT IS CUTTING US DOWN. THEY FAILED TO MENTION THE MAJORITY OF THE DEMONSTRATORS WERE KIDS , SOME AS YOUNG AS 4 YEARS OLD.
YES SOME GOT STAGE FRIGHT, I THINK THAT COULD BE EXPECTED OUT OF THEM.
ALSO MOST OF THEM ARE BEGINNERS


The first school went second. Their drills and exercises were tight! The teacher stood in front of where the school performed and pounded out cadence and melodies on a drum. His only other participation was to watch his school intently and smile encouragement and approval at his students.





I later learned that the teacher of the first school was ever inward looking and soft-spoken. He teaches his students to think for themselves. He encourages them to find for themselves through kung fu their own applications and answers to life. His goal is to make his school worthy of its system’s inspiring lineage. He seemed to know his school was judged by his actions.

-ANOTHER BS PARAGRAPH, I LATER LEARNED, THAT'S CRAP IT IS THEIR SIFU THEY ALREADY KNOW HIM

SOFT SPOKEN, GOAL IS TO MAKE SCHOOL WORTHY OF THE SYSTEM.
THAT IS WHY I POSTED HIS CHARACTER TRAITS ABOUT HOW HE TREATS HIS KUNG FU BROTHERS


I also learned that a teacher from the second school was preoccupied with disparaging and discrediting the authenticity and lineage of the first. I wonder if his preoccupation was reflected in the performance that I watched.

HOW DID THEY LEARN THAT?


WHY DIDN'T THEY SAY THAT THEIR SIFU TELLS EVERYONE THAT PONG LAI SUCKS AND SO DOES MASTER SHR.
TOM'S STUDENTS HAVE LEFT AND COME TO PONG LAI TO TRAIN AND HAVE TOLD US TOM TELLS HIS STUDENTS THAT. HE ALSO TOLD ME THAT BEFORE HE KNEW I WAS TRAINING IN PONGLAI
THEY ALSO TOLD US THAT ALL THEY DID FOR 3 MONTHS IN CLASS WAS PRACTISE FOR THAT DEMO BECAUSE THEY KNEW WE WOULD BE THERE.
WE HAD BETTER THINGS TO DO IN CLASS LIKE LEARN SOMETHING.

SO AS YOU CAN SEE , IT WAS THEM WHO STARTED THE BASHING.


- to your remark about it kills me they don't post, i have nothing against master chan, why would i?
yeh tom pulled some crap on me but i don't hate him either. I don't have anything against him, we are civil to each other when we see each other. I posted my experience with his ways because you guys give me crap like i'm always bashing the system for the hell of it.
i trained in the system for a long time, my experience is my training in pong lai is better. i can compare the two, can you?
why don't you come and train with us and see for yourself.

NO I DON'T KNOW YOUR SIFU

-YOU WANT TO GIVE NEWBIES AN UNBIASED OPINION, HOW CAN YOU GIVE THEM YOUR OPINION IF YOU SAY YOUR NOT IN WAH LUM?
I DON'T CARE WHO GOES TO LEARN WAH LUM BUT IF THEY ASK WHAT THEY WILL LEARN I'LL TELL THEM, IF THEY WAN'T TO KNOW ABOUT POLITICS I'LL TELL THEM, IF THEY WANT MY OPINION I'LL TELL THEM.
YOU CAN JUMP ALL OVER ME EVERY TIME YOU WANT, I'LL JUMP RIGHT BACK BUT MY STATEMENTS ARE TRUTH.

[yu shan]

18Elders
You should cool your jets on WL, why so much bother? Let them all find out the hard way. The system is nearing it`s terminus,they (American WL) are on their way to extinction, while Pong Lai offers a renewed supply of authentic Mantis Gong fu. Wah Lum needs to seek reasons why so many apples fall from the tree, and not just from one branch, many branches! Again, where have all the Greats gone? Chill out and just continue to invite our brothers and sisters to come and see for themselves what Pong Lai is all about. Believe it or not, we are a friendly group on it`s way up, 18E, sometimes you make us look apprehensive. YOU KNOW BETTER!

[Damon]

ALWAYSRUNNINGHISMOUTH

It's sad to see someone run their mouth off about how stupid and imbecilic everyone else is when, in fact, you appear to be the only real hypocrite in here.

It looks to me like you're more interested in making others look inferior so you end up the king of the hill, but in actuality, you are the real "petulant child."

Instead of bashing people for speaking their opinions and trying to start fights, why don't you just...shut up.:)

[SaMantis]

go ahead, call me a hypocrite ... but there's an astonishing amount of bad blood coming up here.

AlwaysTraining -- Thanks for sticking up for Wah Lum, but we're all fine, thank you. Please go easy on calling people cowards, they might just show up at your front door ... it's an up-front challenge. It's also not very polite.

18elders -- OK, I get it, you're mad. Actually when I read WW's original post I was just confused, in fact I thought he was bashing WL. Go ahead and vent, let all that negative chi out and then get on with life.

Basically, after AD's split with Wah Lum you and your KF brothers were left to train on your own. My question on that is, did you try to attend another WL school, or voluntarily train on your own? If so, why?

Kudos to you and your brothers for banding together. Continue to train and improve your art.

My main issue with the Pong Lai posters is the negative attitude toward WL being turned into a marketing tool on this forum. My personal reaction to schools that make negative remarks about other MA schools is this: I won't attend a school that publicly bashes another. I walked away from 2 MA schools (1 CMA, 1 JMA) that I was interested in simply because of comments/attitude. Open derision makes you look bad and poisons the will of your students.

So continue to train, let go of your bitterness, improve to the extent of your ability and come touch hands with us WL students in tournament. Then we can truly compare skills.

Peace,

Sam

[Lode Runner]

>Lode Runner needs his own Forum:
Entitled People and their IMportant Concerns
This Forum should certainly get a lot of interest from those people whose own neediness has to override everyone else. Unfortunately, this totally modern person can never recognize their own behavior(a common trait in Entitled people), and so no one would ever read the posts.<

Hey, wtf? I STARTED this thread. God forbid I actually reply to it once and a while to ask a few questions relevant to my situation... and let's be realistic for a second here: The PL/anti-WL people are NEVER going to change their minds because they've had such negative experiences with WL. The pro-WL people are NEVER going to change their minds because of the opposite reason. So while I may just be a lowly newbie, I represent one of the few... how should I put it, "relevant" catagories of the people in this debate. I truly AM undecided and while I will not base my decision on this thread alone, it can very easily affect what things I am looking for and ask about when I do make my decision.

[NorthernMantis]

LR-

The whole thread is hijacked beyond recognition.I think it would be better o make a fresh start in a new thread.Just a thought of course.

18E-

When I frist read that I was tottally clueless about what that person was saying but now I think I understand.Was that the guy that was bashing you?

Calm down guy.Is this what the whole thing is about?Some nut went online and made some uninformed cooments and you took offense?

Like you said most of them were kids and beginners.Hey my kung fu wasn't so hot when I was younger either. Who cares what that person said. You know better and you know how good your school is. That person isn't you and hasn't had the experiences that you had.

Like SaMantis said just continue training and move on in your life.That's all.

[Jack Squat]

Northern Mantis-

Nice call on the new thread thing. I'll kick it off.

Also, I want to say that although there is/was some hostility here, I feel that overall these WL threads have been very informative and useful. Let's all try to keep the new thread positive for the sake of all of our mental health.

Jack

[Frogman]

Holy cow this is getting interesting. I’m wait for the comical on UPN for the Tampa Mantis Battle Royal. WL VS. PL. No need to bring weapons this is a mud slinging contest.
I would love to commentate:
Here we are in the streets of Ybor City in front of a very excited crowd to watch the first Mantis Battle Royal. We have two very good contenders, despite what they say of one another. Yes it a beautiful day for mud slinging.

And here we go!! WoW, outa no where the mud is flying already. I don’t even know where the first one can from. Don’t look away.
Here comes a WLer with a zinger.
PL responds with a messy hand full. Yuck! It’ll take a week to wash that out.
But WL is mount a counter and here it comes,,,, Splat! Oh right in the eye. That had to hurt.
PL won’t give in to fast,, is it why yes the double handed two man over the top mud flip technique. The WLers are scrambling…. Ha, one WLer just slipped in something, I’m not sure that was mud??
Hey what is this some outsider has decided to jump in. What an arm!
Is that what I think it is??? Some one need to tell that guy not to through rocks. “you know who I mean”
Now we are all covered in it. And both side have attacked the mean guy. O’ right in the head that’s goanna leave a mark.
Looks like the WLers are going to try a group form.
Yes, yes ! I do believe that is the ancient 12 step mud sling cannon. That technique is said to have been developed by one of the late cavemen named Ug. This could be ugly.
The PL team is running for cover, wait they are forming together it looks like the Mantis shield. Good block.


Who is going to clean this up??
If you think this is funny you should read the thread from the beginning.

[yu shan]

Hi Frogman
It`s really neat to here about Ybor City, what a fun place! Your post was a little differant, you sound very bitter. Pong Lai does NOT back down, OUR Mantis, ATTACKS! RELENTLESSLY!

[Frogman]

I’m not bitter I think this is great break time entertainment, and am merely an observer. I have no idea who half these people are and don’t care. I think if it is not fun why do it? I had a lot of fun writing that little bit, but have no interest in getting caught up in the mud slinging, which is just an observation.
Curious???? :confused:
What part made you think I was bitter?

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

18ELDERS
another fine example of manipulative strategy -- pick apart the message and divert attention from the facts. fact: you and your pals can't let it go. that's it. nothing more. you can't stop. can you? no control. no discepline.

you are a coward and i’ll keep calling you a coward as long as you behave like one.

in the beginning, you were jabbing at MC (don’t try to rationalize your purpose in starting that thread, you insult the intelligence of the entire board). then suddenly, when your online verbal assaults started to effect your business and your standing in the chinese community, your problem is no longer with MC and his “making up first form”, et al, rather it’s with this other guy and some perceived slight – I somehow doubt he had anything to do with your not being left sifuless.

btw, i don't think WL is suffering much the loss of those 2 students.

and one more thing -- you can't hurt me, but you can keep trying – it’s like slapping a shadow

FROGMAN
you may be the only one who remotely touched on my purpose. let’s see if anyone else can figure it out.

DAMON
you're heart's in the right place.

YU SH**
(love those little plays on names – they just never get old)
some 25 or so schools with 4000+ students worldwide – yep, WL is headed right out the door. ever been anywhere with MC? unlikely that you command so much respect and adoration. when you do, people can consider taking your opinions seriously – that goes for flem, too.

now, on to the positive wah lum thread – let’s see who the first PL will be to break in and destroy it – or start a new negative one.

SAMANTIS
everyone is a hypocrite on this board, especially me, so don’t sweat it.

[18elders]

where have you been?
you are the one twisting the facts.
Nothing to do with the chinese community, they love pong lai!!
If wah lum doesn't miss any of its students then why is MC so ****ed about it??? It has been more like about 30 students at least.
MC didn't make up first form, CWC did.
see ya.

[yu shan]

18 Elders
Isn`t " always" pretty funny, bitter as heck though. Again 18 Elders let them go thru the false euphoria, enjoy the training we are experiencing, it`s their loss our gain, they are being fooled. You know what I`m talking about, isn`t it funny as ****? See ya Bro...

[spiralstair]

What 18elders and yu shan are really saying

1st Guy: Am I cool?
2nd Guy: Yeah, you're cool.

1st Guy: Did I do the right thing?
2nd Guy: Yeah, you did the right thing.

1st Guy: Do we know more than all those other guys?
2nd Guy: Yeah, we really do.

1st Guy: How awesome are we?
2nd Guy: So awesome!

(slight pause)

1st guy: Am I cool?
2nd Guy: Yeah....


Who exactly is it you still need to convince?

Besides yourselves.

[18elders]

are you alwaysspittingcrap's brother?, Lover?

[ALWAYSTRAINING]

i am so bored with your silliness.

come on really; first with the "your mother" thing, now with the ****sexual inuendo. i could care less if you think i'm gay. didn't i tell you you can't hurt me? i don't exist -- you are dim, my man, very very dim.

you think i was referring to everyone that ever left WL? do i have to explain everything to you? i'm truly surprised that you can manage to keep the respect of any of your students.

here's a tip. make sure you comprehend what has been written before you answer it.

and one more thing -- will your school be competing in the St. Petersburg, FL tournament?

[spiralstair]

the prattle continues....

1st Guy: What about people that think we're foolish?
2nd Guy: They must be...****sexuals!

1st Guy: Yeah. right! You're awesome. That'll show 'em how you've learned to apply the martial meaning of your forms.
2nd Guy: Yippeee! This Forum thing rocks. And we're the best, nobody else knows what we know in the way that we know it.

(slight pause)

1st Guy:Who da man?
2nd Guy:You da.....

[Mantis_Hand]

I don't see what the big deal is. I just started posting here again after a long absence because I got tired of people ****ting on one another's styles.

I really don't understand why so many people get so upset over Wah Lum - I've been training with them for nearly two years now. My Sifu is the ****, Master Chan is the ****.

Everyone who has a problem with the WL style needs to calm down and mind their own god **** business. Escpecially you guys who run schools and call yourselves Sifus - ripping on someone else's style or school is about the lamest, most unprofessional thing you can do.

Way to make a good impression.

[18elders]

not trying to hurt you, enjoy your posts.
i don't have any students, you must have been thinking i'm someone else.

-tourn.: yes some will compete, i may be judging,
some won't be able to make it as they will be on a trip to taiwan.

[18elders]

funny, a wah lum sifu in tampa tells eveyone master shr sucks.
Maybe you should write him, while your at it ask Tainan mantis if his shr-fu sucks?

[Mantis_Hand]

I wasn't really targeting anyone in particular, Elders. It's just very frustrating to see people trashing on one style or another.

There's a lot of this that happens here and I was reminded that this is the reason I stopped posting on this forum a year ago. So many people debating over who's style is legit, which is apllicable, who's school has "politics" - it's foolishness. I'm not an authority and I'll never claim to be about martial arts in general.

There's just a lot of this idiotic "my style can beat the **** out of your style." flaming happening. I can't see why people feel the need to trash other styles. Especially in the Wah Lum department around here. Seems like people have to dig deep and scrape up little things to pick on, just for the sake of picking on it.

It's very easy for the people here who flame other people's styles to hide behind a stack of Black Belt magazines and post threads about how BJJ owns ALL martial arts - I just wish it didn't have to be that way and people could just do their own thing without getting so opinionated and flaming someone's style.

[Mantis_Hand]

I can't account for what other WL sifus are saying about other styles. I don't know these Sifus but I'm sure there are some who are guilty as well. I don't approve of them doing it either. I can just say that Sifu or not, they haven't listened close enough to Master Chan's teachings.

What it all boils down to is that all styles have their strengths and weaknesses when put in contrast with other styles. Our strong points may make up for another style's short comings as I'm sure another style's strong points will make up for our shortcomings.

I don't want to declare that Wah Lum kung fu is superior to any other style of martial art because that's just ignorant. There is a balance between all styles.

[SaMantis]

Good posts, Mantis Hand.

As far as what another WL sifu might be saying ... all I can say is there's 2 sides to every story.

What I wonder about, 18elders, is whether Master Shr knows that his students and instructors in the US are acting like punks on this forum and possibly out in the real world.

If you read back on the threads, no WL'er has said "Pong Lai sucks" -- most have tried to be polite, asked questions about PL's claims and tried to share information. We've even tried to answer their criticisms about WL politely but it seems that some PLers are determined to throw their bad experience up in our faces.

Here's the facts:
1. Several current PL students/sifus were once students of AD, who was kicked out of Wah Lum.
2. They stayed with AD, who probably had bitter feelings about WL and passed on those sentiments to his students.
3. His students, in turn, carried those bitter feelings when they joined Pong Lai.
4. And now, Pong Lai's official sales pitch (in the U.S.) is "Wah Lum sucks."

Of course, they couch that message in a lot of bull-**** about how PL teaches "real" applications, that WL is short-changing its students, etc. And PL is working VERY hard to bring WL'ers, particularly si-hings and sifus, to their school. Why are they targeting WL specifically? My guess is that they need real talent to build up their small school, they haven't got enough to sustain PL in the U.S. somehow. Strange, since their superior fighting skills should be enough to draw in flocks of new students.

Tell you what, 18elders. Why not start a PL advertising campaign with your real message: "Join Pong Lai. Because Wah Lum sucks!"

:rolleyes:

[Joe Mantis]

SaMantis

Facts 1-3 seem to be legit observations. #4 however, seems to be stirring up garbage.
Your conjectures are not helping the matter between the two schools.
Have you participated in a PL class?
Are you sure that bringing WL students/sifus/si hings to PL is on PL's agenda? Have you asked the PL sifu? Have you interviewed those who left WL for PL and gotten their reasons for leaving?
If you have I'd love to compare notes with you.

Thanks

[SaMantis]

Hi, Joe

#4 is a combination of things I'm hearing (from WL students, not sifus) about things going on in Tampa, and from what I've read here on the forum.

Not all PL'ers are being negative, however the general comment from Pong Lai is along the lines of, 'Try a style that teaches you real praying mantis; Wah Lum isn't (a) teaching you the real thing/ (b)teaching you anything/ (c)is hiding applications from you.'

18elders is the angry guy on the forum right now, he may be trying to promote PL but he's coming off in a negative way.

As far as interviewing, well, several people right here on the forum asked PL'ers why they left, and PL answered them. Can I ask them in person? If I go to St. Pete in April I'll be happy to talk to any PL'er out there, and he (or she) can try to dispel the negative perception I've developed of Pong Lai.

[NorthernMantis]

Funny thing SaM.Have you noticed that (c) contradicts (a)?

Oh and by the way who is this AD?E-mail me.

[Frogman]

Everyone wants to be the best and it may seem easier to knock the other guy’s tower down rather then build yours higher. This applies to both sides of the street!!!!!
:rolleyes:

[SaMantis]

True, Frogman.

I've been a little petty here, so I won't go stirring any more garbage. I just wanted to lay out my perception of things as they stand.

To be fair, Tainan Mantis (and Hua Lin Laoshi) have set the example and stayed above this, so I'll try to do the same.

I'd rather discuss mantis techniques/history on a friendly level with all the schools on this forum (including PL) than argue about things which have already occurred and can't be changed.

Peace,

Sam

[18elders]

To clear up one of your points-
None of us were with AD when he was kicked out so we don't have bad feelings from that situation.
Ponglai had already moved to taiwan, i was training with my kung fu brothers at the time.
We then were students of SC until he closed down his school and then we were on our own training with ourselves.
You guys all think we don't like CP, that is not true, I have nothing against him, there are many people at the temple i like and get along with, big mike and hua lin and Tu and Ben were always nice to us.
I didn't like the way whitewhirlwind took a stab at us, that's it.
Even though a sifu in tampa couldv'e been a better kung fu brother, i have nothing against him either. We all judged together last year at Nick's tournament and we all get along fine.
I admit it got a bit out-of-hand and we have tried to smooth things out with the temple.


Northern Mantis- AD is Art, ask shelly about him, she knew him.

[NorthernMantis]

18elders, my man I think you might want to take a break.Why so much anger?

Look how much time you have wasted here arguing about wah lum with others when you could have used that time to practice or do something else.I bet that almost 90 percent about your posts are about wl flaws and bashing.

At first you seemed like a mellow guy asking questions but now your just a hot head,like SaM mentioned.Don't bring yourself down to this level man.Like Sam said,I also thought whitewhirlywind was taking a stab at us too.Don't let such a petty thing like that bother you.

Just take a day or 2 away from this place and spend more time with things you love to do.Spend more time with family or friends or listen to music.You know better than that.There's more to life out there.

I challenge you to keep yourself from posting for no more than 2 days and do something contstructive.Trust me, things will seem a lot different after you are done.Are you tough enough to prove me wrong?

[Five Swords]

Hello,
I am a student at the Pong Lai school and I debated about whether or not to post a reply on the forum regarding the current situation between Pong Lai and Wah Lum. My first instinct was to just stay out of it altogether but now I feel compelled to respond and hopefully build upon the momentum that Sa Mantis started in his post .

Let me first say that I am only speaking for myself and not for anybody else at the Pong Lai school as they are quite capable of speaking for themselves.

I have some experience in other systems of martial arts but I have never trained with Wah Lum. I could not care less about the fact Wah Lum has some southern influences or as some say is limited in its mantis content as opposed to other mantis systems such as Seven Star. From what I've seen of Wah Lum I think it has something valuable to offer to any serious student of Chinese Martial Arts. Wang Lang himself pulled from many different systems when he created the Northern Praying Mantis Style so I see no problem with Wah Lum having elements of Mok Gar etc.. The bottom line is that nothing has any value except the value you place on it! For those students of Wah Lum who are happy and satisfied with Wah Lum I am sincerely happy for you! I know the frustration of trying to find the right system or a legitimate teacher!

I enjoy the training and teaching I am receiving at the Pong Lai school! The school does indeed teach alot of application and combat oriented training methods but just like any other art it still requires alot of time and effort to be effective and I will be the first to admit that I possess a very low level of skill at this point in my training! I enjoy training with 18 Elders and I consider him a friend as well as a Kung fu brother. I wonder if his original question would have been received better had he still been a student/sifu in Wah Lum when he asked it? I can certainly understand the zeal by the Wah Lum people to defend their system and their Sifu, but I think 18 Elders was sharing his experience as he perceived it. Let's face it, no school or system is immune to the politics that goes on! If you never ever have the problems he encountered than good for you! But at least consider his experience and some of the other former Wah Lum students experiences to make you more aware of the situation so it does not happen to you and more importantly so you can stop it from happening before conflicts arise that could disrupt or stop your training at your school. Especially if you're happy where you are training!

This forum could be such an revolutionary tool by which we as Chinese Martial Arts practitioners could share and exchange knowledge on a worldwide level! The skill level of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts is going to continually decline as generations go on. The majority of us have jobs, families etc. We can't devote the time and energy to develope the attributes and skill level of the great masters who existed in the past. This forum and the people who frequent it could play an integral part in the direction Chinese Martial Arts will take in the years to come! I would hate to see us waste this precious opportunity by arguing and feuding!

Any style or system is made up of individuals. I have met alot of great people through the martial arts and I am certain that there are plenty of great people at Wah Lum. I would hate to think that I may not have the wonderful opportunity and honor to meet and exchange with students of Wah Lum because of all that has happened! I respect anyone who has the courage to take up martial arts training regardless of their style or skill level!

It won't be easy, but I hope we can swallow our pride on both sides and just move forward with a renewed spirit of brotherhood and sisterhood of martial artists. Of course there will always be disagreement or difference of opinion but I think we have a responsibility that is greater than our differences of opinion or our egos. We can either contribute to each other and the Chinese Martial Arts in a positive, constructive way or we can be destructive by engaging in mudslinging. I for one would like to extend my hand of friendship to the Wah Lum students and would certainly consider it an honor to share and exchange information with you!

Sorry for the lengthy post and thank you! (At least I got some good typing practice)!

Take Care!

[woliveri]

NM, what was bad about 18E last post? I saw no anger. I see no hostility.

What's up?

[18elders]

didn't think anything was wrong, just clearing up one of her points, didn't say anything wrong.

you guys may think i'm a hot-head but as a great example there was nothing wrong with my post to Sa mantis, you jumped all over me for what?
I would jump back and then you guys call me a hot-head.
I said things got a bit heated up but i still think it was WWW's comment that got it going but you all point the finger at me.

SA Mantis- did you think anything was wrong with my post to you?

[SaMantis]

18elders, there wasn't anything wrong with your last post, I'm glad you're trying to clear things up for me. If PL and WL smooth out their differences, nothing would make me happier (well, a couple of things would, but they don't have anything to do with kung fu) ;) . NM was right, though -- white whirlwind's original post was confusing to everyone but a few PL folks.

Five Swords,

Thank you for posting. I feel the same way -- I would rather share friendly dialogue on mantis styles than debate politics. That may not be entirely possible on a forum, but it's worth a try. If anyone from PL would like to meet and talk mantis at the St. Pete tournament, let me know.

Sam

[whitewhirlwhind]

I apologize to everyone for the comments I made and the aggrevation that they caused. It was wrong for me to say the things I did and the way I said them.

[18elders]

should be there, would like to answer any questions and even go over your wl forms and help you out with anything i have learned.

[NorthernMantis]

Well not the last post woliveri.I did see another post in which was very obvious he was mad.

Sorry if I over did it 18elders.

[SaMantis]

Thanks 18elders, I'll e-mail or message you when it gets close to tournament time so we can meet up.

Sam

[yu shan]

Thanks everyone, this thread is going in the right direction. I`ve got an idea, let`s all meet at Scrima`s tournament, and turn things around, for the good. Peace.