Master/Disciple System and equality

[Ka]

Wang Xiang Zhai was oposed to this system and felt that training was free to all who had the preserverance to follow his (or whoever's) training.
In our society equality is looked upon as important but usually in a class situation one must at sometime trust what the teacher is teaching you is right/usefull /productive.For this he /she demands respect and almost blind obidence.(I guess this is why some do not like you cross training)
The modern student must not only part with time, hard earned cash and be often talked down too.


How do some of you Instructors deal with the above topics?

Reason:
Recently in Sydney while talking to an instructor (who I know)who swore at a student for listening to our conversation.
Another Instuctor reguraly makes derogative statments about the stardard of other teachers students abilities without crossing hands with them.
Sorry gone of the orginal topic, if you get the idea please post a few comments

[EARTH DRAGON]

Interesting topic, As a shrfu I can add a little words that may help make light of this situation.

As a teacher you should be bound to the idea that you are teaching your students the real deal. As students you must trust that they are doing just that. Some times bad teachers make good teachers look bad, but when you are in school you automatically trust that your math teacher is helping you learn about numbers, so in MA you should trust that they are doing the same.

There must be respect in class for not only your teacher but for senoir students. You dont have to like them but you should respect them not only for their personal attributes but for the knowledge they have obtained. Blind obidence? Not in todays world, when you pay money you expect a service, I somtimes ask my students to perform little chors around the school and then usually teach them a little extra but never tell them what to do or how to do it, and never expect that they will. that would be takeing advantage of them.

Talked down to ? never, I have diciplined them when they have done something bad or wrong, the same as I would my children for in a sense they are but I do it with a lecture or explain why I am feeling like they need talked to but in the end they repect you for it. No one should be talked down to not your student, employee, freind or anyone else that you care about.

Last but not least profanity has no place in the class before during or after. There are certain rules that must apply simply out of respect for the kwoon. We have them posted on a sign when you enter and are a must to be obeyed.

I had a freind take a private class with me and at the end I said OK it's bow out time..... he said I cant do that... I said why He said your my buddy not my god why do I have to bow to you? I explained that he was not bowing to me personally but to my sharing of knowledge that was shared to me by my shrfu and his shfru and so on.... so you see some people dont understand the amount of respect needed to not only teach but to learn... your freind E.D

[dezhen2001]

a good post E.D.
As a student, i can see what you mean. I guess i'm lucky that i have a good Sifu :)

david

[Ka]

I agree nice post ED you corvered all the topic's.
Myself I was totally surprised when this gent went off the way he did,While I know the man,I guess I don't know him that well.He has definatly changed since taking on the mantal of instructor.
What this constantly confirms to me just how important the Instructor can be,I hope that many understand what sort of responsiblity they are taking on.
Without a doubt somtimes cultural preceptions can make for misunderstandings but this in my opinion is something that both parties must understand then rectify.
The second instructor uses another fail safe,by never directly blaming other teachers for there so called inferior students,rather he simply says the students do not train hard enough to produce results.If you are not improving its because you don't work hard enough,he is not to blame.
While I am sure this can contain an element of truth,it seems overkill when he is still happily acepting there cash.
Anyway thanks for listening to my ramble
Any other instructors with any comments

[Repulsive Monkey]

A teacher who slates another teacher without prior knowledge of his/her capability is usually a teacher worth ignoring, it basically shows poor character and possibly sour grapes syndrome. A teacher that swears at a student for something trivial as that is a little unbalanced in my opinion. I don't see it a sign of a disciplined teacher but of a teacher with ego problems and who thinks that there are of high character.
I could be very wrong but experience has hsown me that genuine teachers can be very disciplined yet very careful on how they treat and eductae their students.

[Ray Pina]

Great post E.D, a shame so many don't aprecaite the knowledge being shared. The respect comes naturally I think, seeing someone with such a skilled obviously required a lot of discipline and hard work. Some just don't get it.

A note on teacher telling a student to mind his/her business though. I can agree with this.

Sometimes my sifu will show us soemthing and we go to work on it with a partner, switching up along the way.

He may inerupt a few seniors or desciples to fine tune their technique. This is not the time for juniors to stop what they are doing and ease drop. Not because they will get some "secret", but because its none of their business: we have their own basics to be working on.

When sifu get's to us, he'll fine tune us. But trying to uderstand the finer points of what they are doing, when the basics are still wrong, its wasting time that could be used training. A lot of people just like to use any distraction as a break. Why?

[shaolinboxer]

"He may inerupt a few seniors or desciples to fine tune their technique. This is not the time for juniors to stop what they are doing and ease drop. Not because they will get some "secret", but because its none of their business: we have their own basics to be working on. "

I do not belive that his is true. We all have a only a certain amount of time to spend with our teachers, and observing him/her as much as possible is neccessary inorder to abosorb as much as we can. Perhaps a senior brother will ask a question we have not thought of but is extremely helpful to us? Should we ignore this possibility and "mind our own business". I think not, it serves no purpose except to re-enforce the traditional command structure.

Perhaps you will overhear something that make no real sense to you, but later in meditation or training you will recall this event and have a revelation.

Master move, masters quit, masters die, masters get sick, masters get bored.

We must take as much as we can now. I believe this is a show of respect, to be eager to learn.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Arrrgghhhhhhhh...that thread brings bad memories for me...not badn actually, rather upsetting ones...
You see, I'm a nice and funny guy...I take training seriously but I do not get overserious to the point it's silly...but recently I had to switch to butt kicking mode...I was asked to teach the beginning students the first part of our first form...I come to them, I go "we'll learn until this movement"...one stops and tell me "can't we go further, we already know this part". I say that 1) I was asked to teach THIS part and 2) it's gong fu, you'd better acknowledge that it's necessary to work especially what you think you know.
it got me quite annoyed at first but I proceeded with a smile...I teach them the moves...they do it bad (which gets me a little more annoyed at mister "I know that part already"), no waist, no root, no power, sure they know approximatively what movement comes after the other, but it's just plain bad...I show them at lenght, explain them the hows and whys of it, take my time...some start ppfffffffing when I make them repeat the movement for the 10th time...I'm starting to boil inside, but I still haven't lost my smile. Eventually I make them hold the stance and tell them "I want to see waist, turn it more...I want to see back leg, straighten it"...some visibly have a hard time, but at least they try...then I look at mister "I know that part" and some others and it seems they don't even try...I tell them again "waist facing front, back leg straight, come on"...they don't budge...
And I blow...I'm starting to yell "****** I'm fed up, you tell me you know the part, we repeat it over and over and no one seems to make efforts...you're al doing shi@t and you think you know have the form?? Learning the movements is something ANYONE can do, but doing it right is why we are here...your legs hurt?? so what, it's gong fu, if you stop each time it hurts it'll always hurt...you can't do it?? well if you never force yourself it won't ever come...that's gong fu you're here to learn, if you just wanna get in shape do some aerobics, and if you don't want to listen to what I ask I'd rather not teach you"...my sifu comes up with a smile, and tells them about me "he's a very nice guy, but it shouldn't make you forget why you're here...you have to understand that when I ask him to teach you something, he becomes your sifu, and you have to listen and obey him like he were me"...then he tells that he'll continue and that I can go practice my own form and that I'm doing the right thing. I hate these beginners with attitude who think they got it because they can move their legs and arms approximatively like what they see...then they give me attitude?? ****, after almost 5 years of training I still consider myself a perfect beginner and these guys tell me "we know that part" because they practiced it five times??
Arrrgghhhh, it gets me all upset when I think about it, I hate doing that, I don't care if I sounded like a jerk to them, they are here to learn and try their best, like we are all here for no matter how much time we practiced...if they're not happy with it, they can just find some other school where after the slightest effort the guy will tell them "great" even when they suck...
f@cking slackers...
:mad:

[Ray Pina]

Shaolinboxer, believe me, no one apreciates time with their master more than me ... and I get plenty of it.

Classes are small and my sifu teaches the entire class -- he never leaves it to a senior unless away, which has happened once in a full year.

With that said, we are all at different levels. The main subject will be taught, explained and shown to the entire class. Then we pare up in a line and get to work.

What sifu is telling a guy 5 people down from me is there business. Maybe he's a senior but his elbow is up, and he';s reminding him to keep it down. Not my business.

Is my elbow down? Good. Let me make sure I keep it down and get as many reps as possible. He'll be up towards me soon, so let me keep working it. Believe me, he'll find something to correct.

We know when its time to stop and pay attention, because class will clear out and make room when sifu starts to demoinstrate, show the idea in use, things to look for, things to keep in mind, and then back to work.

Of coarse, I'm like a spunge and try to take everything in. But I heard him mention this once, and he's right, corrections made to someone else down the line is their business, I should keep training unless there is a break in the action directed for the entire class.

I think many want to run before they can crawl. If I can barely get out of my crib, what good is listening in on sprinting advice? Its none of my business.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Crimson WOW do you feel better now , How long have you been carrying around that built up hostility ? You must know that your teacher told you to teach the other others students a certain move for not just thier benifietsand learning but for yours.....Think about that for a minute.....

I once had a young student from russia who was extremly shy and would never look in your eyes when talking and would talk very soft and low due to his insecurites... I asked him to read a chinese story outloud to the class while I went next door to the hardware store to get a new flouresent bulb. he said ummm sifu I cant do this I said what? he said read this in front of the class, I said sure you can just read it i will be right back and finish where you left off, go start to read I am leaving. well as you could imagine he was petrified and spoke very quietly then someone speak up dimitry and he cleared his throat and spoke up. many months later he is the class valadictorian and one of my assisitant
instructors. He even approaches new students that walk into the kwoon to answer questions......... so the morale of the story is sifu's are smarter than you think and just becuse they tell you to help other students they may be trying to help you........ your freind E.D

[MonkeySlap Too]

I do not beleive in cultish behavior as a rule.

However, I do know from experience that the early stages of training requires the student to have implicit trust in thier teacher, and the teacher must be a good example as a human being as well as a martial artist. This is essential as we are engaged in an egomania inducing activity that at it's core is about hurting others. In order to prevent creating monsters, you must set certain boundaries.

Also - there is a great deal in training that is experiential. You can talk about it, but until you experience it, you will not understand it. As such there are 'secrets' in my school, but they are not 'secret', the student just may not be ready yet for that stage, and experience has shown that teaching in a logical progression is best. Some students learn better if you hold back,. others if you show them where it is going. Each situation is different.

I do beleive that 'the nail that sticks up gets hammered down' - certainly in the early phases as ego does get in the way of learning and group harmony. But as a side note, it is not about teacher domination - if the teacher 'hammers' a student just to reinforce dominance, they are not getting it.

Generally, in my school the people that make are the ones who are dedicated. The only additional requirement I have is that they have compassionate to all, and be good people. I will not teach people who appear to be cruel, overly selfish, full of themselves or in any way likely to be a pain - unless I see in them a kernal of good that can be 'beaten' out.

[shaolinboxer]

EF - Yes, I see what you are saying.

It is also good practice to know when to limit your intake. We must decide on our own just how much we can absorb, and be honest with ourselves.

I see you begun to build a web site. I look forward to seeing more :).

[Crimson Phoenix]

Earth Dragon thanks for caring, but really it didn't prevent me from sleeping heheheheh...I have to admit I do not really see the point of your comment...sure, my sifu is there to help me, he's alway been, and I do not mind when he wants me to perform the basic form in front of him even if I'm learning more advanced one because I know that you can always go deeper in deeper even in the simple forms...as I said in my post "like we are all here for (learning and trying our best) no matter how much time we practiced...it's not a matter of hostility, but of disrespect of the art that I'm ****ed about: I'm just ****ed off at these slackers coming to gong fu like they come to, say tennis, or cardio class...the main problem is that people pay and by paying they think they are entitled to be taught what they want...they are not...they will be taught if they deserve it, period...and I hate it when they give me that attitude and do not work properly because they are convinced they know the form eventhough they practice like turds. I'm sorry but even when I do my first form I learnt years ago, I still search for deeper execution and find some mistakes that I could erase...and these guys think they do not need to work because they can move their limbs "sort of" like in the form?? I cannot stand such disrespect for the art, to me even if you pay and can freely join a class, gong fu is still not a mass product but a priviledge...I'm not proselytic, that's the way I have been taught: either you respect and deserve the art and teachings, either you just walk out the door...and it's not because I smile or joke around that I do not take this seriously. I have great times teaching more advanced beginners because these guys already passed some test and provd that they are honest,dedicated, and here to learn, when teaching these guys I learn as they learn. But I'm losing my time with some of these self-sufficient slackers, do not tell me that "yeah, but you'll still gain from the teaching experience" nope, sorry, I will gain much more from teaching to dedicated beginners, we will mutually gain from that, but I can't fill someone's cup if they haven't emptied it first, right??
I'm just ****ed because it's this kind of lazy mentality that is killing the real art and make modern martial arts scorn us...

[Nexus]

Crimson, one thing you learn from teaching new and beginner students is patience, which is something we can all improve upon, yourself included.

[Ka]

Sorry CP "pay the money then taught if they deserve it period."This is just way out there for me.Who decides whether they deserve it.Maybe you should stop charging money and go back to Teacher disciple method then only the fully comitted would come to you because of your superior fighting ability and form work right?
Where does human rights fit in?;) Do you treat your missus like that?:p
Considering that some of you make (not all and in all truth I respect the instuctors that train and teach full time)tax free dollars often train in parks (free venue) supply no mitts/weapons and still charge membership fees and ongoing fees I would say the least the teacher can do is make an effort to help people who aren't as quick as others.Please remeber that they have probaly worked hard for there cash too.
While I am sure that it is there decison to financially surport your school(because thats what it is right,if you didn't need the money why charge for teaching) and they can go if they don't like it,please remember that people react in different ways coming from differeing perceptions.If you put out arrogance maybe they defend with arrogance.Maybe they have there mind on other things.
Tell me that there is no variatons of stardard amongst your seniors.Tell me that all meet your high level of approval in every part of there lives.
tripy bro

[Sam Wiley]

Crimson Phoenix,
I think that what they meant is that your teacher wanted you to teach them because he felt there was something you could learn from the experience.

[red_fists]

Hi.

The modern student must not only part with time, hard earned cash and be often talked down too.

This is a western concept and feeling.
All my Instructors up to now when they accepted a Student they took the responsilbity of making them into a good MA. If a Student didn't become good, it was they that failed.
So a lot of Instructors will be tough on their Students to fulfill that commitment.

My Teachers phsyically manhandle me into correct postures, and they are less than gentle. They are simply making a strong point.

How do some of you Instructors deal with the above topics?

If we are told to perform a Form we are supposed to do nothing else.
If Sifu wants to make a point for the whole classe she will gather everybody together. But if we take a break we are actually supposed to observe the rest of the Class and learn from it.

Recently in Sydney while talking to an instructor (who I know)who swore at a student for listening to our conversation.
Need more info on the WHOLE situation to make yp my mind. But profanity should never be used in a MA School.

Another Instuctor reguraly makes derogative statments about the stardard of other teachers students abilities without crossing hands with them.

Nuff, said.

[RAF]

Traditional Chinese martial arts was never met to be mass produced and mass distributed. Training that soldiers received was far less than that of the disciples. Often only one disciple was chosen to receive the entire system.

2oth century, guns, ahhhh yes health shifting uses and needs.

Look at taijiquan and weep. That's reality of traditional martial arts and its future.

What do you think can be done to preserve traditional martial arts?

Not everyone can or should receive complete instruction in a system, should they? Or does money buy anything and everything?

How is telling a student if you are hardworking, commited, and meet my assessment, you will receive the system? Any different from discipleship? If not, ask for a legal binding contract specificying what, how and when you will receive your material.

Sleight of hand! discipleship comes in many forms, even those claiming they teach openly and freely. The master still makes the decision how much you get regardless of money.

[EARTH DRAGON]

you said
Earth Dragon thanks for caring, but really it didn't prevent me from sleeping heheheheh...I have to admit I do not really see the point of your comment......

Really thats to bad...... you should re-read my post, nexsus and sam wiley's again and then re-read your post's from someone else's eyes. you will then understand..... "young grasshopper"

Think of something in kung fu that you just hate practicing.........


I'lll bet that is exactly what you need to improve right?

I have students that hate horse stance with a passion, guess what they never do on thier own? guess what needs work?

[Crimson Phoenix]

My teacher asks senior students to teach the younger ones at the end of the class...sometimes he appoints peeps, sometimes he asks for voluntary...that day my knee was bugging me and I didn't feel like straining it more with the form I'm currently practicing, so I volunteered to teach them...

Since I'm considered a senior student, I am sometimes asked like other seniors to teach the beginners, it's as simple as that...if my teacher feels there are things I have to learn, then he teaches them to me himself because he considers that's why he is here for.

Now I'm returning you the gentle comment of "if you don't understand my post, that's sad" because you're missing a key point about martial spirit and the respect due to gong fu. I pay for class, but I do not consider that makes me entitled to receive teaching, I believe you have to bow before teaching and humble yourself like you would in front of a king.

Ka, whatever, I am what my senior student who taught me made me, I share these criterions with them as they taught me them. And the thing is with these seniors is that they are way less gentle than me...I hate being over serious and act military, but it would seem that it might be the only thing these people understand...you pull the ass, it refuses to follow...you are gentle, then less and less gentle, you pull you pull it still won't go...will you lose your time for ever? Or decide to leave the ass where it is? Well these peeps do not realize that by behaving like this they are gradually making the seniors indifferent towards them...will you ever lose time with someone who, when you tell him "put your back foot 45 degrees at least to turn your waist front", looks at you blankly, obviously not even trying to turn his foot, and giving you a unhappy face because you're asking him something that makes his leg uncomfortable?? Well, you might lose your time once, twice, but not three times: there are people out there who are here to learn from your teaching the same way I'm here to learn from the teaching experience, and these people deserve the time much more, these people, by trying their best, EARN the teaching. And when they do earn it, there's no holding back, you give them all you have.

Nexus, indeed patience is something definitely worth improving, and we all need to during all our life, but I'm sorry, you all go on rambling about disrespect and I consider it's disrespect when I ask a student gently to try his best and use his waist or correct his foot's position, and then he replies me with a "ppffffffff" and blatantly does not even try doing it. We have great beginners, they try hard, they do not always succeed and that's alright because trying one's best is what I'm looking for...but there are these two or three hardheads who think they know it all, refuse to eat bitter, and are expecting me to say "very good" and teach them the rest when they're not even doing the beginning right?? And they have the guts to pppppppfffffffff at me?? Woul you "pppfffffffff" at your sifu? I guess not...and if you did, I hope he'd bi@tch-slap you out of the school quick.

I do not need moral lessons, keep them for yourselves if you're enlightened half as you think, I'm here to learn and preserve gong fu, not pat people in the back when there's no reason (and especially NOT when they would instead deserve to get their asses kicked).

Earth Dragon, by the way, it just occured to me that my "it didn't prevent me from sleeping" comment could sound like irony towards you...forgive me, I didn't mean that in such words, actually, I was meaning that "this night's bad teaching experience didn't prevent me from sleeping", and your comment was taken as a friendly advice...thanks anyway for replying to me in a gentle way even though you might have taken my own post as an attack towards you...now to your recent post...good example, of course there are some stuffs I hate practicing, like anyone...let's say...panther walk for example...but the difference in spirit is that if sifu says "everyone panther walks" I won't go "oohh no, that sucks, pppffffffffff", I'll just shut up, tell myself that every work is a benefit and then do it...it hurts, alright, but I'll try my best.
My whole point is that there are some people out that that do not even TRY...then you tell them to hold a stance and they go "I can't, it's too hard"...well of course you can't, you never try...would your horse stance improve if you got back up the very second it becomes uncomfortable? Of course not, well the sad thing is that lots and lots of peeps out there think they can learn and practice gong fu without mental or physical pain.
It just can't be done.

On a side note, I hate having to act all serious and military, it's detestable...back in the days in my school the beginners knew that eventhough the atmosphere was relaxed and cheerful, we were all here for one thing: gong fu. We'd say "horse stance", and they'd try their best...if their legs couln't take it, they'd go up with pain on their faces, but nevertheless they'd go back down again as soon as possible, in 4 words: THEY TRIED THEIR BEST.
Now we got a new generation of peeps who think they can learn gong fu like in the matrix...you can't just buy a gong fu software, you'll have to go through the muscle-aching illusion-shattering maybe-bleeding surely-sweating path...and then I sometimes see such 1-day wonders teach others in parks? That's nauseous, do not even wonder why the arts are being washed down.

And here comes RAF's comment on which I couldn't agree more

[RAF]

Crimson Phoenix:

Here is the best I have heard. We don't pay our master for the material, we pay to support his lifestye so that he may continue to teach.

Unfortunately the reality of feeding the family forces almost every "Master" of today that I know to teach commercially. Those that have a primary source of income other than martial arts may not require discipleship but teach very selectively and still make judgements (based on more than skill i.e. attitudet ) how far they will take a student.

Discipleship (whether its formal or informal) seems to always exist and is independent of the money you pay. I think that is the root of politics both of yesteryear and today and can't be gotten rid of.

Perhaps its best if students change their expectations about being completed or becoming a master and focus on the immediate material being given to them.

[Ray Pina]

I have to say, patience is very important, some peoppe struggle with these things while others get them quickly, BUT a "ppppfffffff" as a response IS UNACCEPTABLE in my eyes.

How to handle this, I don't know. I think I would have pulled the persona side and told them, martial arts is not easy. You will be asked to do things that are uncomfortable, maybe even something you do not understand in which you will have fate.

If being uncomfotable soemtimes is too much to ask, maybe gung fu isn't for you. I'm sure there's something good on TV right now. If you doubt what you are being shown, you are always free to test it on me after class.

That could wake his a$$ up.

[Sam Wiley]

I have never had students who were belligerent like that. I have had people who gave up after having tried unsuccessfully for an hour to learn Wave Hands like Clouds as a qigong. Even though I kept telling them that they just needed to take it slow and work on it, that I didn't expect the mto be prodigies, they still gave up. I think they were looking for a quick fix to something. I can't teach Taiji in a single day, and the style I practice is difficult, so I naturally don't expect people to get it instantly. I wish that I could just put all my knowledge and my meager skills, put them on disk, and then download them into someone's brain. That would make things so much easier for me. But I don't think it would benefit the student all that much, and I don't think they wouldfully appreciate the information, because they would not have gone through the process of learning. On the other hand, I wouldnot have learned the interaction I needed to with that particular person.

It was said in the old days that if you wanted to learn how to fight well, you had to push hands with as many different people as possible. Teaching is like a push hands exchange. It's all a cooperative exchange of energies. Sometimes things are difficult to teach or learn, just as sometimes a certain attack is difficult to defend against or implement, but it must be cooperative nonetheless.

Of course, I understand your feelings about their obvious show of disrespect for you. I can't say I don't. I probably would have told them to leave, that you can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. But the thing is, that you can't learn how to deal with people who don't want to listen unless you do. What these beginners need to understand is that they aren't doing it correctly, and that only by constant practice will they come close. To this day, I make mistakes sometimes, but I keep going over it.

My main student, to whom I would gladly give everything because he is one of the finest people I have ever known and is dedicated on top of that, paces himself. He wants to work on things before he goes on, so I am forced to take breaks in between teaching him things. He's patient and persevering, and is learning things the correct way, no matter how much I'd love to push him more. And I do push him. When it comes to the physical aspect, and the fighting, I push him harder than I was pushed. So I guess he's learning at he correct pace for him.

[shaolinboxer]

Perhaps all you need to do is say a few encouraging words. I often find the phrase "that's not wrong, it's just different" works wonders (even if it is wrong, it gets them to do what you say :) ).

The old "martial arts requires a leap of faith and a lot of discomfort" almost never works. What you are really saying is "I have superior qualities, and you will have to accept this and listen to me if you hope to approach my level." Which isn't really wrong, but it doesn't work on people who already have ego issues.

I recommend patience and encouragement.

[Ray Pina]

Sam Wiley and Earth Dragon, you guys seem like good teachers.


Good for you. I wish you guys well.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Shaolin, yes, well, as I mentionned earlier I hate bein g too serious and militaristic...I'm quite aware that encouragements are a better fuel than anything, and believe me I tried these...I mean them too, as fake encouragements are not working at all...but when you're being too nice it sometimes doesn't help, and I had to revert to some military ways I hate for them to understand...I hate to cop around, but it was the only way for them to work seriously, when I was nice, some of them started joking and contesting what I asked them to do.

[shaolinboxer]

Crimson - I see what you are saying.

Everyone learns in their own way. Some people need to feel pressured, some even seek abuse.

I am sure you are doing all you can.

Usually these types quit to find a place that will give them what they think they want, even if you or I consider it to be unhealthy.

Best of luck and keep smiling.

[Ray Pina]

Honestly, I feel if a student needs all this encouragement, and fights being taught by someone who knows, and doesn't see the stupidity in that ... they probbaly won't amount to much anyway.

If you can't see that the person training you was were you now are, and knows the steps you need to take, then, what the he||'s the point.

Teach them the best you can, take their money and pay your rent. Most don't last. Most don't get it. Most don't even want to get it thought they think they do. It's too much work for most, too much time. People like things quick.

And with this, what do you get when you think you get it a little bit? You get to hop in a ring with someone who wants to take your head off.

That's why most like the name -- "KUNG FU" -- and the gear (cool outfits), maybe even swinging fake weapons, but few are real martial artists. It's too much of a commitment for too little a return -- in there eyes.

I'm sure it has always been that way, and probbaly always will be.

That's why I respect my teacher and seniors. They are the ones that lasted. Shows character.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Thank you evolution fist for your kind words, I try very hard.

As a sifu/teacher my job is to educate and teach others what I have learned. I have found that taking on this responsibility requires much more than I expected. I used to take for granted that I pick things up very quickly, show me something and I can do it. This is not the case for most people and being a teacher you have to realize that every student is an individual and has a different level of understanding and comprehension.
It would be easy to teach the gifted ones and not concentrate on the stuggling ones. However the stuggling ones are the reason you need to spend more time with them. Its not cause they dont try but maybe they cant learn as fast as you... Does that give you the right to give up and get fustrated? or pick and choose the easy way?

I have taught a deaf student a mentally retarded stundent and one who was slow. While it may be harder to convey to them what I am trying to teach them it by far felt better to me as a teacher to watch them perfrom a straight punch than showing my top student a complicated form.

You see teaching builds character and pateints. If you could demonstrate once and everybody got it that would be very easy and everyone could teach but it takes a certain type of people to be a teacher. One can be great art MA but not be able to teach you a single thing.

So remember everybody was a beginner at one time or another if your teacher gave up on you where would you be?

Crimson... you speak about how you have busted your butt to get where you are you've, bled, sweat, teared, pained, and endured long hard practice and you feel like everyone should take the hard way to get to the point where you are right?????????????................
But when it came to teaching you took the easy way out and gave up and got fustrated becuse they couldnt do what you were telling them do so that would go against what you belive in like working hard to get what you deserve.......

Do I make sense yet?
If not just tell me and I will stop trying to help you understand how to better yourself through sharing your time, wisdom and knowledge with the beginner students who look up to you and hope they can be as good as you someday.........

[Ka]

I do not buy it.(excuse the pun)
CP and Raf I have to ask,who is forcing all these masters to teach?
I suggest that you give up your schools so that you can use more desgression in selection of students for it sounds like you do not want to teach anyone who does not come up to your standard. Sure I understand that people may have issues(everyone does and noone gets on with everyone all the time)but if you open a school to accept people on a nonselective criteria you would think that your goal would be to pass on the infro.I understand that some people are more motivated then others but does that forfeit others rights in your eyes to keep learning?

CP you write the classics,you are a manifestation of your seniors,that most be good for adaptation and flexibility.You even comment on "back in the days in my school"ahhh the good old days eh?
Without a doubt it seems you have some disciple problems at your school(I have never encountered such attitudes in people who want to learn)I honestly would not know how to deal with such responsesI guess I wouldn't teach them,(at least I would ask them are you here to learn or what?)

I see many MA offering in the Modern Day not just offering self defense,but a cultural package(language),goal based acheivment(ranks comps),fittnes/health,disciple and friendship/unity(we are social people and everyone loves gang mentallity)
Do I think this is good?No but who am I to question others who get so much out of it,if thats what they want so be it.

I have said this before in other posts but those of you who are into combat,well there is plenty of combat related industries in the most peacefull contries,and you can still earn big bucks.Those into Health the industries await you.Both sides can still teach in there own time.People who commit to teaching commerically must understand that it has gone further then do what I say not what I do.
I just feel its a two way flow,I a'nt no better then the next guy but he a'nt no better then me.

[RAF]

"CP and Raf I have to ask,who is forcing all these masters to teach?
I suggest that you give up your schools so that you can use more desgression in selection of students for it sounds like you do not want to teach anyone who does not come up to your standard. Sure I understand that people may have issues(everyone does and noone gets on with everyone all the time)but if you open a school to accept people on a nonselective criteria you would think that your goal would be to pass on the infro.I understand that some people are more motivated then others but does that forfeit others rights in your eyes to keep learning? "

Discretion is simply a matter of degree. Discretion in selection implies a standard. Whether you call the "standard" discipleship or being motivated is just semantics. It sounds as though your criteria, being motivated, is used to determine whether a student receives more material.

What if students do not have the ability to handle hire levels of training, yet continue to pay and come to classes? Again a criteria is used in judgement. Another criteria I have seen used is loyalty regardless of payment or ability.

There is no one, I believe, who teaches openly and freely. Even someone as open as EM probably has his few select students. What criteria do you use to gauge whether someone is "motivated" enough to keep learning?

Again, I ask rhetorically, "Does every student who pays their money entitled to learn everything?" If the answer is no, then discipleship makes sense. If the answer is yes, then what stops you students from going out, opening other schools and undermining your teaching?

Do you think its dangerous to teach openly and freely? Does a teacher have a responsibility to sort character before teaching something like dian xue or dian mai?

I think the idea of equality and sameness is part of Western mythology. While we wish to do away with hierarchy, it appears as though the East more easily accepts inequality and hierarchy.

[red_fists]

Funny, this topic creeps up over and over again on MA Boards. Regardless of what style or Country of Style.

Yes, people these days pay money and expect to "buy" the Goods from their Intructors. Wrong mindset.

The Instructor will give the goods to who he thinks is worthy of receiving them, nothing to do with Money.

Some students come rarely, but are better suited to receive the goods, than some Guys that blonk down wads of Cash and are there every week.
And vice versa of course.

There are many Instructors out there that teach either for free or simply to cover their expenses. And there are those that charge plenty for Instructions.

It is up to you as a Student to find the Instructor that suits you.
And it is up to the Instructor to choose the Students that he wants to impart which Goods to.

Often the selection process goes way beyond, money, skill, regular attendance, attitude and only the Instructor should know why A was chosen over B.

Remember that the Instructor chooses the students that are best suited to represent his styles and continue the teachings after him.

And from among those Students the next lineage holder might be chosen.

MA like Piano playing is not something you simply buy ready made in a store.

There are few Top Piano players out there same with MA.

Just my 2 Yen worth (not much these Days)

[Water Dragon]

In my experience, my teachers have always given very open and freely. The point that a lot of people miss, is that Gong Fu training builds uopn prior training. There is no getting everything at once. Even if you were told, you couldn't do anything with it. My biggest problem in the past has been trying to advance too soon. I was more worried about learning a skill than having it. Take it slow, train harder than everyone else, and have faith. Your teacher WILL give you the next piece when you are ready for it.

[red_fists]

Hi Water dragon.

I agree with what you said.

[Ka]

Hi Raf,
sounds like people are talking past each other,not uncommon.However I am glad this topic has generated into so many different approaches.
I think you miss my point in the first paragraph.Firstly my criteria is not selfmovtivation.CP expressed dislike for certian students,I suggest he select the students he trains.That way he doesn't have to waste his time on lesser people.
I don't really get your discretion lecture,you are talking about two differing methods,actually totally lost me.
Semantics: meaning of language ,linguistic subgroup with focus on meaning(yeh I know the definition of the top of my head because I am a linguistic student)I take your meaning to be "its the same deal".
I think a lot of points your covering can be answered Yes to in the context of Discipleship.
Now I guess we will have to go through different definations of what entails Discipleship.
Anyway my main question was refering to Does an instructor who takes money for tutition have rights to look down at/talk/treat students as inferior.
Thanks for all the comments. I can imagine the different approaches towards the training of students,and how these apporachs manifest in your answers.
Redfist I dig your answer but your "MA like piano playing ....."can be applied to anything,honestly to get to high levels of anything you have to put in the work at some stage.and your yen can still go a distance down here in OZ

[Sam Wiley]

Originally posted by Ka
Anyway my main question was refering to Does an instructor who takes money for tutition have rights to look down at/talk/treat students as inferior.

NO

[Crimson Phoenix]

Ka, I am not enlightened to the point of respecting people who disrespect me...if you are, then I'm quite impressed and happy for you. I never scorn beginners, I have been in their shoes and as I progress I remain a beginner each and every time. But I am respectful and obedient towards what my seniors tell me, and I do what my instructors tell me to do, they know better than me because they have been through where I am now...if there's something I'm convinced I'm doing right but a senior tells me "you don't do it right", I'll acknowledge it and be thankful for the correction, I won't start the all too annoying "yes, but". There is no BUT in front of your instructor, among equals, sure, but in front of your instructor, there is no BUT, period.
That is respect, and the same way I give respect, I expect to have some back, it's the most elementary relationship between students of a sifu. So sorry, but I don't like it when I tell a student to deepen his stance and he starts whining: I know what I'm saying, one day I was in his shoes and my legs hurt like hell just like his, but I just clenched my teeth and one day it was gone...if you whine and go up as soon as it hurts, why learn gong fu at all?? As water dragon very nicely put it, it's all about building capacity on capacity over and over...if building the foundation is already overwhelming to you, then don't even dream of finishing the house.
And Ka, just FYI, I do not choose who I "teach" to (I'm not a teacher, just a guy who is "less beginning" and who's appointed to pass down the few he knows to the persons who know a bit less), my sifu says "go and teach them x or y" and I just say, "yes, with pleasure".
Gong fu was not born in a society where you had to pay your rent by working all day long miles away from your home. Too bad modern sifus have to pay their rents like students, but if you want to keep gong fu minimally legit and pure, then you should forget about the "I pay therefore I am entitled to the service" kinda capitalistic scheme. In gong fu you are entitled because of your deeds and morality, not because you pay some money for class.
Maybe it sounds elitic, but already masters of all could feel deeply insulted if someone they felt was not worth of their training or not yet tested was trying to bribe them with large amounts of money.

and as for your question, Ka, I reply just like Sam, NO.
A true sifu never looks down on anyone and respects everyone worthy of it.

[jon]

Question of personal moral.
Personaly i believe, if you teach for free you can do anything you like in terms of how who and when you teach what.
If you teach to only cover your costs you can teach according to your own tastes. My hung sifu is like this, you want to learn you pay the fee's so we can all keep training under shelter. You dont pay fee's as some automatic right to learn. Your not getting what you think your paying for then the door is right there.

IF however you teach for profit...
You have an obligation to provide the service or product to your client that you have advertised, thats just simple buisnes ethic.
If you advertise to teach fighting arts then thats what you should teach you shouldnt just sit back and collect fee's whilst only allowing a new student to sit in stance.
IMHO if your collecting fee's for personal profit then you really have an obligation to look after your students and insure that they feel they are getting there moneys worth. Otherwise your buisness is going to go downhill and your line is going to stop with you!
This doesnt mean you have to water everything down but you do have to insure that your students [clients] are happy with the product you provide.
I think a good kung fu sifu will respect his\her students like there own children. For if they are worth there wieght they will know well that any student has potensial.


I love this story becouse i think it shows the true power of good kung fu and good instruction.

We had a student in my Hung class who showed up on his first day looking weak as a kitten. He was hunched over REALLY skinny and was litteraly not capable of doing five minutes worth of excercise without sitting down. He also spoke in a tiny shy voice and when you did application he would barely touch you.
I thought to myself 'this guy cant possibly make it', i was dead wrong!
This guy worked his butt off, he came to every class and he always kept pushing himself that little bit harder [with a bit of help from sifu].
I kid you not six months later this guy was a killer, he stood strait up at over six feet though you would have never realised before. He was starting to fill out and his arms where ripped up, he had fire in his eyes and he spoke with a comanding voice. I litteraly couldnt believe it was the same guy, when we did application he would run though me like a tank. He even got himself a girlfriend. It was so unexpected and yet made me so happy i wanted to cry.
He represented for me [and still does] just what kung fu can do for a person who decides to put in the effort.
He was pushed by all of us and we all took him on as a fellow brother becouse he put in the effort. We learnt a lot from him and im sure he picked up much from us.
In my class you can learn to perform whatever, but if you can USE it... you have our respect.

[RAF]

Maybe I have taken your comments out of context but this what I have focused on:



"Master/Disciple System and equality
Wang Xiang Zhai was oposed to this system and felt that training was free to all who had the preserverance to follow his (or whoever's) training. "

This was the first of your post and I may have missed your point. My focus has been on the Master/Disciple System. Although one may not like it, its very functional and sorts out students and puts them into a hierarchy. Although it is fashionable to talk about equality among students or teachers having to teach students equally it doesn't work well. Sometimes the martial arts school system's structure resembles a military structure (I teach organizational theory among other things) which isn't necessarily bad. The structure has well defined lines of authority and is efficient providing the situation it operates in is certain and clear.

I've been with one teacher for over 12 years and teach for him as CP mentioned in his situation. Students come pay their money and demand to be taught everything. Many are upset if someone gets something that another does not get. Their arugment is they pay the same and are entitled to the same treatment. However, there really is not such thing as equality. Students have different need and have different abilities. It would be irresponsible for a "master" to teach everyone equally and everything.

Although we pay, it is not primarily for a "master's" material. We primarily pay for a "master's" judgement.

So when Wang Xiang Zhai says he opposes the Master/Disciple System and equality but felt training was free to all who had perservance, I am saying that (semantics) is just another way of defining a Master/Disciple relationship. Using criteria such as motivation, perserverance, loyalty, in my experience, are the criteria used in deciding discipleship. Discipleship is a judgement and a way of preserving material and transmission and at times, it fails too. For example, some disciples take material they are not competent to teach and open a school claiming to be the transmitters of the lineage. They have the so-called credentials but what they teach is poorly done and it often destroys a system.

When traditional systems go commercial this all comes to a head. The whole idea that I should get what I pay for forces a "master" to then categorize and grade material. The standardization, creates the karate, mentality. A substitute often used for discipleship becomes senior students or advanced classes and you still have problems with that.

Regarding students listening in on the conversations of others often deserve what they get. I do not know the context of the situation you described in your initial post, put some students think they are entitled to everything including private conversations and the constant attention of the master. Sometimes you get students who spread gossip, stand on the shoulders of others, compete and hurt others, etc. etc. and you must deal with them straight forward, regardless of the money they have paid. Cursing might not be the best way to go about it, but students often cross boundaries and they know exactly what they are doing. Under a disicpleship system, the disciples help enforce the socialization of new students and so the "master" is never point in the position of losing face.

However, its important that students realize they are not helpless victims. In these given situations, the student realize have the power to walk away, leave. They are an active agent, they don't have to pay for abuse etc. unless they value the material more than the loss of ego. Some "masters" are outright crazy and should be avoided. Ultimately its your (student) judgement call.

Its also important to distinguish schools when they are commercial versuses when they are informal. Many years ago when I started, my own teacher refused to address me directly and taught me material through his senior student. He, of course, checked me but did not know my name for a full year. Now he has gone commercial, those days are gone and its a much more lighter. The commercial standing changes so much. We often get (I handle a lot of his calls) students coming in wanting only one or two things and not willing to go through the basic training. We offer them private lessons (at a substantial cost) and that often resolves the problem. We get students coming from other systems not willing to let go and changing the material to fit their old systems. We get dabblers who like taking a class to simply say they are taking traditional martial training.
You even get the ocassional student, who wants to challenge you before he will "grace your school with his presence". You get students with thousands of different needs and the needs change over time.

I often wonder how a teacher/owner can keep it all together. For example, a commercial school would not have worked when my teacher first came to the US. He could not speak English and this created many problems from simple misunderstandings to others taking advantage of him because he could not understand what they were doing. By surrounding himself with individuals who cared not only about the material but also about his well being he was able to function and many good times and strong relationships came out of this. It enhanced the martial arts experience, having his mother cook dinners, doing work projects together etc. The discipleship extended far beyond the training hall, but that was my experience and others may have had something different. It also had its politics and problems but martial arts is simple more than training and material.

Well, I hope I have not missed your point KA but this is how I read your post and have been posting in response to that. Nonetheless, its been interesting.

Have a good day (or nite, depending where you are)!

[Water Dragon]

RAF, I'm making the trip this summer. I really have to come and meet you.

[RAF]

Water Dragon:

Please do. One of the poster Rockwood has visited us twice from California and really enjoyed his interviewing of Tony.

In fact, I will down at the Arnold (Schwarneg@@@2) Contest in Columbus, Ohio on the 24th.

Tony Yang will give a Sunday morning baji seminar and its easy to pick up some good basics. Tony is much more open than he has ever been and also has a pretty good command of the English language.

I hope I don't give you the impression that we are real hard core. Tony teaches the basics and it becomes the student's responsiblity to train in them (I am very sympathetic toward the student here. It takes real perserverance. There really is no secret but having proper alignment is important and that is where the eye of master must come in. CMC had it right about having faith).

Water Dragon, it sounds like you have been around the block and I'd love to sit down with you over some good food and shoot the breeze. In Akron, we have decent Thai and authentic Korean but not Chinese (Cleveland has the growing Chinese community). Dinner is on me!

Working on a sword basic article and a translation (my chinese associate, my chinese is as good as nonexistent except for what my wife teaches me) of Liu's baji philosophy.

Wan Shi Ru Yi!

[Ka]

Raf and Jon quality posts!!
Raf I understand ,like I said I think we often talk around each other.With such a varity of MA schools placing emphasis on differing parts of each art it is no wonder that many are motivated by things other then traditional morals and eithics.I was mainly sparked by CP reply which seemed a tad comtempous of his students.
Cheers all for a interesting round.:)

[RAF]

Ka:

Your right. Sometimes I am waiting for the coffee to kick in when I post.

Have a great day!

[Crimson Phoenix]

Arrgghha Ka for the last time: THEY ARE NOT MY STUDENTS...I DON'T HAVE STUDENTS. Sifu says teach them so I obey, it 's as simple as that.
And if I sound contemptous or demanding, which I'm really not if you knew me in real life, well it's just because my seniors who passed down and continue to pass down their gong fu on me shaped me this way. If I'm demanding sometimes, it's because they were and still are.
They don't do it for pleasure or sadistic reasons, they do it because you cannot pass down good gong fu without hard work and high expectations.