New Grading system????

[budoman5000000]

Do you think that a new type of grading system is needed for all Martial Arts? At the moment, Martial Artists are constrained for going any higher grade wise by their age length of time in the Martial Art. I think that all students learn at different rates, so they should be taught at the level they are at, not their grade. For example, when I started Judo, I was very good , and at my first grading, I beat two brown belts and two blue belts. I ended up with a yellow belt because they frown upon skipping grades. But why? Surely you should get the grade you deserve.

[Paul]

Nope. My school doesn't have a grading system and I like it just fine the way it is.

[norther practitioner]

As long as you know (and whomever you beat) knows where you stand should be enough, a belt is just a formality.

[JasBourne]

No grades in my system, either. No one 'deserves' anything, there is no authority vesting you with some ego-soothing badge of approval. You are either a good fighter or you get your butt handed to you until you become a good fighter, and then you move on to become a better fighter.

:cool:

[budoman5000000]

Then there is the problem of teaching. The only way you can be a teacher is if you have got to Dan grade. What if you have the ability to teach at a high level, but you have not yet reached the Dan grades as the length of time to get a dan grade is usually four years at least!! Wont that mean that there could be a lot of potentially good teachers out there that could be passing on their knowledge to many people, but with the current grading systems are being left out?

With a new system, Martial Arts could be a lot more widespread with more teachers with more skills. Most judo teachers dont know a thing about punching and kicking as it is not in their syllabus. Which could only be holding the students back.

[JasBourne]

Since we've just pointed out that many systems use no grades whatsoever, maybe you should concentrate on creating a new grading scale for your system, rather than MA as a whole.

I take instruction from many people in my kwoon besides the 'instructor' (sifu). Regardless of their personal development in the system, they all have one thing in common - they all know more than me.

Hey, maybe you'd like to try wing chun? ;)

[shaolinboxer]

Grading in martial arts is like taking a standardized test in school...it's not really a measure of your abilities, but rather a measure of how well you can perform the specific techniques or solve the specific problems found on the test.

Also, grading can be used to determine political ranking and maintain a more solid command/responsibility structure.

The student gives the grade its value, not vice versa.

[Marshdrifter]

I can certainly understand the reasoning behind not having some
sort of rank system. I do think, however, that a rank system can
be useful within a particular school. Both a student and an
instructor can come in, look at a student and infer what the
student has learned within the school's curriculum. Does it say
how good a student is? To a small degree, yes. It shows that the
student has (at least at one time) met the criteria required for
a person to be that rank. A student, however, could be way
beyond that criteria and may be held up on advancing rank based
on that students knowledge and understanding of another drill.

A person could come in and out-spar some of the more advanced
students, but that doesn't mean the person understands, or
even knows the curriculum of the beginning rank. If they do know
and understand these things, they should advance rank as
deserved.

[Shaolindynasty]

That reminds me of a story I heard about Joe lewis the karate champion. I guess before he was a champion he went to Okinawa or Japan for advanced training and beat all the students in a particular Dojo so the Sensei gave him a black belt in that system. That doesn't make sense to me. A Muay thai or boxer even a Tai Chi can beat the crap out of me but that doesn't mean he should be ranked in my system cause he doesn't know it!

As far as implementing ranking systems, Adam Hu from the traditional Wushu system has been working for some time trying to get masters of the more popular kungfu systems to establish an internationally recongised rank system for their styles. He beleives it will help spread kungfu if it's more organised. Look what established rank did for Judo, karate, Jujitsu and TKD.

To me rank is something that should be epected within your own school, showing you who is your senior etc. but it does not show fighting ability, and outside your school shouldn't mean anything. I am also not really for colored belt/sash ranking for kungfu. In my school we use levels but every bodies uniform is the same. We all have black sashes and when my sifu would have a new student come he would say "You don't need to worry about getting a blackbelt cause you already have one, now all you need to do is practice".

[budoman5000000]

I think that for martial arts to develop any further, there should be less segregation between the martial arts. Every Martial art should unite to form one whole, huge martial art. There are thousands of different styles that are very similar, all that is different is the tradition behind them. Why not create a large martial arts circle where in areas, there are specialists in their own right. A specialist in throwing, a specialist in punching, a specialist in kicking etc. The student can learn all he/she needs or wants to learn, then move on to learn off another specialist. This will eventialially lead to less specialists, but more rounded teachers with a much higher overall knowledge then before. This cant be done very easily with the way things are at the moment. I think the best way is for teachers to be asessed on what they know, then everything that they do know should be split into categories and then given levels on their ability.
For example. A judo teacher should get a high score for throwing, armlocks and strangles, but should get considerably less points on wrist locks and striking. Once the teacher knows the level he is at, he should then teach his students a new syllabus. His students will learn the important parts of judo, but it wouldnt be judo anymore. The teacher can then assess the students and give them scores on their throws, their locks, their strangles etc. Once the student has reached a certain level on one of the parts, he can then teach that part to others. Eg. the student may be rubbish at everything but strangles, which he could be a master at. In the current system, he would not be able to teach just strangles because he would be ungraded. But if a new system was put in place, he could start his own club just teaching strangles. Martial Artists will go and learn off of him until they have reached their desired level in strangles, then move on.

All that i am thinking is that the Martial Arts should be a lot simpler than they are now, there are to many styles!!!

[red_fists]

Originally posted by budoman5000000
All that i am thinking is that the Martial Arts should be a lot simpler than they are now, there are to many styles!!!

Actually I see a few Main styles, with a lot of personal/regional interpretations under each.
My System also doesn't have a Rank System.

The Grade/DAN System is VERY new in MA terms a bit over 100yrs.

[budoman5000000]

Does anybody have any opinions on this idea?

[Tigerstyle]

"...A specialist in throwing, a specialist in punching, a specialist in kicking etc. The student can learn all he/she needs or wants to learn, then move on to learn off another specialist. This will eventialially lead to less specialists, but more rounded teachers with a much higher overall knowledge then before."

If there are only more well-rounded people in the future, who would teach (the specialties of) each method? The specialists are most likely people that have devoted most or all of their training to their preferred method (locks/throws, for example), but in a system that stresses learning all aspects, there would eventually be less specialists to teach.

Soon subtle tips/tricks will be lost and everyone will be learning the same ol' stuff. Then one day, someone might come along that "discovered" the secrets of a certain aspect of fighting. No one is able to stop that person because no one has seen the "secrets" before. This will cause a re-evaluation of everyone's personal methods in an attempt to find their own unstoppable secrets.

Magazine ads will come out saying, "Learn ancient striking methods, long thought to have been lost", or "Revolutionary new fighting methods that easily defeat the stagnant 'classical mess'! ;) " Many will specialize to cash in, to address personal weaknesses in their "style", because of a personal preference to one method, because of the excitement of discovering something "new", etc.

With so many specialties out there, it will become important to learn as much about as many as possible to be able counter most or all of them. People will begin generalizing their approach in an attempt to learn "just enough" of another specialty to defeat it with their own personal specialties...

Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

:)

[budoman5000000]

With a new system, there will be many more people practising MAs than ever before. It could be competley different to the way that we learn now. With more people learning Martial Arts in a set way, the higher the level will be, which would eventually lead to teachers having the same knowledge as a specialist, but in all areas. There is always a cut off point, where people can't get any further than they already have, they learn nothing that is new, they just spend all of their time trying to get better at what they do, when really they only move forward in miniscule amounts. The time wasted on overpracticing an art could be spent developing their knowledge on different skills.

Why practice one art for 60 years, when the same skills can be learnt and mastered in 5? In the 55 years that the specialist has spent training in one art, the other man has already 'Speciaised' in all of the aspects of Martial Arts.

[JasBourne]

Sounds like you're ready to start your very own style, budoman5000000. Go to it!

:D

[Paul]

With a new system, there will be many more people practising MAs than ever before

How do you know that would happen?

[JasBourne]

(I posted this in the thread titled "..", but it really belongs here)

So, in this utopian scenario, who exactly decides what is useful and included and what gets jettisoned? And who or what monitors this authority, who "certifies" these arbitrers of style and technique?

:)

[red_fists]

Methinks the Guy needs to understand MA before posting here.

1.) Grading SYstem:
All it does and all it can EVER mean is that if you have reached a certain grade that you have received instruction to that level and shown the necessary understanding/skill to continue your study.

It DOES NOT mean that you have mastered that material or that you are even good at it.

2.) Lumping all the Arts into one Pot.
Yeah, great go for it. Next we will all be wearing white suits, have barcodes on our Bodies, eat the same food, work the same Job,etc.

3.) More People will study MA.
More washouts like you that don't have what it takes to master even one System, now are looking for another magical Pill to reduce 60yrs of honest hard training into a 5yr course.

4.) Combine all the Arts.
Yeah, sure.
Ever heard of:
"I don't fear the thousand technqiues you practiced once, but the one technique you practiced a thousand times".

Yes, even the greats like YLC used bassically 1 Posture to defeat their Opponents.

So combining the Arts will just overload the Student with techniques, and he will notbe able to anyone to a high degree.

MA is about sweat, dedication, respect and plenty of hard training.
There are no shortcuts, or Magic Belts that will increase your Skill.

Yesterday I saw one guy exercising in the Park, very good. We worked out next to each other for about 3 hours.
Just 2 Guys from 2 different system going through their moves, and sharing mutual respect.
Granted he is like lightyears ahead of me.
Weather was 3 Degrees Celsius, snow flurry and all.

But it feels good to see somebody doing someting slightly different.
Yes, our styles shared movements and techniques, but the execution and other aspects varied. I learned quiet a bit from watching him.

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by budoman5000000
With a new system, there will be many more people practising MAs than ever before.
Why?


It could be competley different to the way that we learn now.
How?


With more people learning Martial Arts in a set way, the higher the level will be, which would eventually lead to teachers having the same knowledge as a specialist, but in all areas.


?!

You realize, I'm sure, that specialists exist because one person
can't possibly gain the expertise necessary in all fields, right? In
order to have the same knowledge as a specialist, it is necessary
that one also becomes a specialist.

Also, keep in mind that some form of standardized testing for
instructors will not guarantee a higher standard of education. If
it did, the licensing process of school teachers would've ensured
the US public school system is doing an excellent job.


There is always a cut off point, where people can't get any further than they already have, they learn nothing that is new, they just spend all of their time trying to get better at what they do, when really they only move forward in miniscule amounts. The time wasted on overpracticing an art could be spent developing their knowledge on different skills.

Why practice one art for 60 years, when the same skills can be learnt and mastered in 5? In the 55 years that the specialist has spent training in one art, the other man has already 'Speciaised' in all of the aspects of Martial Arts.

That other man probably be better, in a lot of ways, than the
person who spent 60 years refining. If you don't believe me,
take an art (and work hard at it) for about 5 years. Then go
and compare yourself to someone who has worked at it for 10
or 20 years.

[prana]

Grading systems and Dans are generally ignored in the Chinese Martial Arts system. A good master exhibits humility and radiates wisdom. She sets by example not by belt colours.

The student can learn all he/she needs or wants to learn, then move on to learn off another specialist.

It depends on how long you live, and how much of your living time is put into looking for coloured belts, watching television.

In CMA if one spends too much time looking for the black belt, then they wouldnt have much time left for Qi-Gong. Even if they didnt, life is too short to become a true specialist at many arts altogether.

I think that for martial arts to develop any further, there should be less segregation between the martial arts.

Excellent. Lets begin by why I beliebe you should punch with your last two knuckles (pinky and ring finger knuckes) and not the first two (index and middle). When we finish that, lets begin by debating why we punch with our fist slightly open. After that, lets debate why we punch with a very relaxed hand.

Why practice one art for 60 years, when the same skills can be learnt and mastered in 5?

Because after 5 years, you develop the greatness, the mind of a warrior and think you can land 50 punches onto an opponent, and you might win coloured belts and get high scored and fame

But if you keep training, after 60 years, you develop te greatness of understanding that, you know nothing, scores are not important, and colors are perceptions of the opponents eye. Also, you will only need to land 1 punch to annihilate your opponent completely

I hope you have a good sense of humour, please don't take me seriously, I am just a fool.... I dont even train to fight. I am just wasting some Ki and general bad breath. Keep training, dont let me sto your enthusiasm, if anything, I hoe your curiosity grows greater.... and you become wiser and wiser.

[shaolinboxer]

BudoMan500000- You have two dans in two years? Wow. Are you an uchideshi? Under whom have you received your dan rankings? Is one of them in aikido?

Before trying to unify the arts, perhaps a bit more than 2 years of study into what the arts actually are is required.

[GeneChing]

Next we will all be wearing white suits, have barcodes on our Bodies, eat the same food, work the same Job,etc.
This was all that came up when I searched 'barcodes' and I gotta post this somewhere on this forum. It's my job. ;)


LOOK: Beijing beset by babes with barcodes on their butts (http://shanghaiist.com/2015/11/03/barcode_butt_babes_in_beijing.php)

barcode_butts2.jpg (http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/alexlinder/barcode_butts2.jpg)

Earlier today about a dozen women were spotted strutting together around the streets of Beijing in black underwear with "use me" written on their backs and barcodes stamped on their butt cheeks.

http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/alexlinder/barcode_butts.jpg
http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/alexlinder/barcode_butts3.jpg

What secret did this butt barcodes reveal? Alas, that is not yet known. Police rushed quickly to the scene to investigate around noon, but the ladies had all disappeared without a trace.

http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/alexlinder/barcode_butts4.jpg
http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/alexlinder/barcode_butts5.jpg

Popular speculation is that the girls were part of a cleverly-designed marketing ploy for a software company. If that's true, it is certainly something we can get behind.

http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/alexlinder/barcode_butts6.jpg
http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/alexlinder/barcode_butts8.jpg

Hopefully, future promoters use the idea to liven up the next regiment of Spartan warriors to march through town.

[Images via NetEase]

[Kung Fu]

The "Bar Codes" is certainly an interesting approach.

Red_Fist sums it up nicely with: Ever heard of:
"I don't fear the thousand techniques you practiced once, but the one technique you practiced a thousand times".

Each person's martial evolution is unique, even within a system. My views change every decade, as my experiences develop. By the time I tested for black belt, I had learned over 30 forms (although this does include tan tui, weapons, and Tai Chi). Another 20 forms later, and it occurred to me that I was not really mastering any of them. So I tried cutting down to three Shaolin forms for regular practice (not including Tai Chi or weapon sets), which I then decided needed three basic forms for support, and then added three praying mantis forms because I enjoy them. So would this have made me a yellow or orange belt, or later green or brown? How then does over 25 years of practice factor in? And I still practice the other 19 or so empty hand forms once a month, to keep them to at least some degree.

Fast forward 8 years, and I am back to practicing 20 or so empty hand forms in a session more often, for one primary reason - it is fun, and I like the variety. Since I am not fighting in the UFC, nor living in a dangerous area, the deadly focus on one or a few forms did not seem so critical. But, that said, the fun and variety of many forms is a trade off for higher states of mental focus and practice of a few or even one form. Ask me again in five years, and I may be back to attempting to truly master one form. As it is, more often I go through all my forms, other days I focus with all my intent on just a handful. And of course, everyday Tai Chi.

One last note - two of my favorite Kung Fu people - one was an old man in the park - best long sword I have ever seen. He looked like a true master, and was one of the few people I have every seen which decided I wanted to learn from. It turns out that he only knew that one form, and had been practicing it for over 35 years. He started when he was 50, when he decided that he needed to take up some form of exercise. The other was a young Chinese gentleman who worked out at a Karate club which I also frequented. Every session, he would show up with a different belt. Some days white or yellow, other days green, blue or brown, and sometimes black. He had fantastic skill, and a great attitude.

In Respect, KF

[Firehawk4]

What is your Major Kung Fu system ?

[Kung Fu]

Longfist/Shaolin (out of Shan Dong Province) is my favorite, plus some Plum Flower, Eight Step, and Seven Star Praying Mantis. I also have a passion for traditional Yang Style Tai Chi. I also dabbled in Bagua and Hsing-i, just to get some understanding and first hand experience with the style. Too much for one cup, but I do enjoy the variety.

[bawang]

the official kung fu grading system of the medieval chinese government in the ming dynasty

Good 1 Good 2 Good 3
Middle 1 Middle 2 Middle 3
Bad 1 Bad 2 Bad 3

Official kung fu grading methods:

weight lifting:
drawing testing bow up to 200 lb
spinning testing da dao 180 lb
lifting testing stone up to 400lb lb (500 lb hero stone available)

aggression:
draw lots and wrestle, observe aggression

melee weapon:
sparring against another melee weapon with wooden stick wrapped in cotton covered in chalk
successfully bypass tester wielding spear within time limit
knock down short poles (infantry) and tall poles (cavalry) within time limit

spears:
sparring against spear with wooden spear with cotton tip dipped in chalk
successfully keeping tester with melee weapon at spear tip within time limit
knocking out 5 wooden balls with 5 stabs allowed under time limit

ranged weapons:
shooting target three times

rewards and punishments after testing
gain one rank: reward with money
gain two rank+: reward with extra money
rank same after testing once: no punishment
rank same after test twice: fine money or flogging 5 times
rank same after three times: increasing fine or flog 10 times
rank decrease: fine or flog 10 times
rank not increase after more than 5 times testing: flog 40 times, expel

rank display: wooden identity badge
name rank
facial description
height and weight
strength speed endurance
test ranking



which chinatown rainbow sash sifu is brave enough to try implement this at his hobby lobby without losing 99% of his ricebowls

[David Jamieson]

From this day forth, I'm going with a 9 tier bawang system.

Bawang 1 - how to type
Bawang 2 - using the internet
Bawang 3 - how to troll
Bawang 4 - Troll the internet
Bawang 5 - know your history
Bawang 6 - Ridicule posers
Bawang 7 - Get some practice time in before dinner
Bawang 8 - Break a brick
bawang 9 - Transcend all beings and take a seat as the god head of Kung Fu

For only 19.99 USD, Certificates will be issued with your misspelled name! They will be FDA certificates and will show that your meat was indeed inspected and that it passed for human consumption.

[BCV]

Let's consider the history of ranking/grading. Once a pupil has learned material in the curriculum he then moves on to something else. He does this until he has learned all that is required of him (forms, exercises, techniques, philosophy, ect).

Also we look at the history of the belt/sash. It was for all intents and purposes to keep ones pants up(like any actual belt). Due to rigorous training, the belt darkened with blood,sweat, and dirt. This kind of thing happens when train outside. It wasn't until the 40's that we actually had a color ranking system.

The attitude of your instructor should either be a sense of calm or a red flag.

[David Jamieson]

Let's consider the history of ranking/grading. Once a pupil has learned material in the curriculum he then moves on to something else. He does this until he has learned all that is required of him (forms, exercises, techniques, philosophy, ect).

Also we look at the history of the belt/sash. It was for all intents and purposes to keep ones pants up(like any actual belt). Due to rigorous training, the belt darkened with blood,sweat, and dirt. This kind of thing happens when train outside. It wasn't until the 40's that we actually had a color ranking system.

The attitude of your instructor should either be a sense of calm or a red flag.

Let's consider all the trappings and circumstance that have forced dilution of traditional martial arts and in many instances turned them into ineffective and anachronistic fantasy realms. Rank being one of those things as it is almost completely irrelevant in this new world we live in. It has no meaning of real value anymore because the average kwoon attendee or dojo rat or whatever is not in a filial military environment.

Not that one can't learn effective skills as a martial artist, because one can and one can do it under a traditional model. However, that is typically what many call "closed door" training.

People who train for sport have a much shorter vector to achievement than those who train for art. People who train for war, have a different training arc again from those two.

getting back to a belt is to hold up your pants is important in regular joe world. Achievement can come through the hands more clearly than what's tied around your waste. :)

2 cents

[Cataphract]

The belt system was adapted by Jigoro Kano from the game Go. His ingenious idea has guaranteed a steady flow of income to martial arts organisations ever since. The kids love it and I don't mind as long as you get something worthwhile in return.
WingChun has perfected the method of course. I've never seen as many ranks as in Leung Ting's European branch and you loose all of them once you leave.