..

[budoman5000000]

There is no room for a new style, a new style will be just like all the other styles, but with slight differences. For Martial Arts to develop, instead of another style being created, the current Martial Arts need to be categorised into clear sections. The beginning student will then know and be able to choose what he wants to learn and decide for himself what level he wants to be at for each category.When any person can easily chose to learn whatever he wants, Martial Arts will be at a whole new level.

[DelicateSound]

Budoman - whereabouts in Staffordshire???

[JasBourne]

So, in this utopian scenario, who exactly decides what is useful and included and what gets jettisoned? And who or what monitors this authority, who "certifies" these arbitrers of style and technique?

woops, nevermind. I'll ask the question in the original thread.

:)

[red_fists]

Sounds like he is one of those new-age Hippie teens.

Born in 1984.

Can I call you pup, bub.

I have been doing Japanese Martial Arts for two years,and have two first dans.

Lets see 2 Shodan (Beginner Rank) in 2 JMA in 2 Years. Smacks of McDojo to me. Or we got Won-Ton-Ton the wonder Puppy here.

Judo,Karate,Aikido,Jujitsu
Those are his interests, he doesn't list the styles he studied.

Judo = Sports Ju-Jitsu
What style of Kara-Te ??
What stule of Aikido ??
What style of Ju-Jutsu ?? (Jitsu is aother word with a different meaning)

So he has no training in CMA(little in JMA), comes to a CMA Board and tries to tell People that have dedicated their lives to their arts and in plenty of cases, got more years training that he has living how to improve MA.

Sounds like either a TROLL or a serious mis-guided young Person.
May I suggest to all to stop wasting our time on him.

[Budokan]

Awesome! Only two years of training and two first dans to show for it! You're the man!

(No, you're actually the troll. Hit the road, loser. REAL martial artists come to this board, and we can see through you like clear ice.)

[DelicateSound]

It's OK Budo - he lives near to me - I'm locked and loaded, ready to TAKE HIM DOWN!!! :D

If a more subtle approach is required, I'll take a quick recon of his address, and we can all pay www.sendacrap.com to bombard his letterbox. :D

[apoweyn]

no, budoman's right.

there's also no more room for personal expression or scientific discovery. so knock it off. let's just stick with what we've got. okay?


stuart b.

[Water Dragon]

Da.mn guys!

You could've just shot him. You didn't have to chop the body into little pieces.

[apoweyn]

water dragon,

"so the student becomes the master."

didn't we do this dance last week? but you were leading that time.

:)

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by apoweyn
water dragon,

"so the student becomes the master."

didn't we do this dance last week? but you were leading that time.

:)

No. I asked a question because I had doubts as to someone's credibility. I asked my questions in a polite manner as well as my reason for asking the question. I remained polite and cordial even after the individual tried taking personal stabs at me. Not the same situation.

[budoman5000000]

OK, you know i made up those details, but that was written ages ago and I dont know how to change my profile. I suppose it was a bit sad lying about my grades. Sorry.

[Water Dragon]

Budoman, to answer you question:

My Gong Fu is somewhat of a synthesis of everything I have learned. It will continue to be like this in the future. If and when I decide to teach someone, I will teach them what I know. This means if I think one teacher taught this extraordinarily but one teacher taught that extraordinarily, my "stuff" will be a synthesis of the two.

So yes, there are only a finite number of pieces

But No, as it is HOW you put the pieces together that is important.

[DelicateSound]

1) Top of page - User Control Panel
2) Edit Profile
3) Retype real qualifications, i.e. "6 months training in the Gracie Total Defense CD-Rom"
4) FOR THE THIRD TIME WHERE IN STAFFS!!!!!!

[apoweyn]

water dragon,

i'm pulling your leg, mate. i got caught being hypocritical. dig?


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

waterdragon,

Please forgive Ap.

He's a brit and has a **** poor sense of humor :)

[JasBourne]

I suppose it was a bit sad lying about my grades.

Not at all, once you have all of Martial Arts regulated and graded the way you like, you can award yourself as many bloody dans as you like!


:D

[apoweyn]

budoman,

now that the bitter pill has worn off and i'm (hopefully) not being a jackarse, let me try this:

you're supposing that the style is paramount over the people that practice it. but as water dragon pointed out, styles govern people. but people also govern styles. the styles change in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways due to people's interaction with them.

so to say that we shouldn't change the existing styles runs kinda contrary to human nature, to my mind. i mean, is the eskrima i teach going to look like the eskrima my instructor did? given that he was a 5'3" filipino who was quick as a jack rabbit and i'm a tall, lanky englishman who's quick as a... much older jack rabbit, it's kind of unlikely. my eskrima will have changed because of my involvement.

however, i do have to concede that there are a lot of reinventions of the wheel going on. but as always, it falls to us as individuals to make judgments about what new things are bollocks and what are genuine contributions. and i don't know that an established criteria can necessarily handle that.


stuart b.

[Water Dragon]

Da.mn Brits

:D

[budoman5000000]

My idea only came from a thought that came into my head a few days ago. The idea was that it could be a good idea to write a new syllabus, which would change the way that Martial Arts were practised. There could be levels. 1-10 would be like white belt to black belt. then the levels can keep going up after that by the teacher practising various katas and refining his favourite moves. This may sound similar to the way things are done now. What is the major difference is the choice that the student makes. The student could work with his teacher at what he wants to learn. To reach a level the student has to accumalate points in various parts of the assessment. He could chose what his strengths would be. Each part would get marked out of ten. It is all then totalled up and to get to the new level, he has to get on average 8/10. This For example, a level one assesment for judo would be:

Breakfalls- Competence in protecting himself from any damage ?/10
Pulling/pushing- Able to move opponent in any direction ?/10
Blocks- Blocks from two punches ?/10
Throws- any one throw and any trip ?/10
Exercise - small fitness test ?/10
Theory - Knowledge of the rules ?/10
Total ?/60
Average ?/10
Grade ?
Ready for next assesment yes/no
Overall score ?

The overall score would be more usefull in higer levels for seeing how high he has scored on each part. The student cannot go to level 2 until he has avgd 8/10. He cannot go to level 3 until he has recieved 10 on all parts in level one.

As you can see, this is completely different to how people are graded now. And i think that this way would be more fun, what are your opinions?

[DelicateSound]

OK people, to recap:

"Whereabouts in Staffordshire do you live?"

I'm not asking for an address, just a town. Don't worry, I'm not going to stalk you for months until you are alone in some carpark in the middle of Hanley where I can ritulistically beat you with an iron bar, I'm just curious - OK! :D

I live in Staffs too - that's why I'm asking. No?


And Water Dragon - you are pushing a FINE line over there :D

[DelicateSound]

Oh and FYI, my old KungFu class used to work on a similar scored system - it's not new.

[budoman5000000]

Lichfield

[apoweyn]

budoman,

a new way of evaluating progress. that, i'm in to. and i apologize wholeheartedly. fibbing in your profile aside, this is getting interesting.


stuart b.

[DelicateSound]

Not far - I live in Stone! Same age too - coincidence! :D

Who do you train under, there are some good schools over that way.

[shaolinboxer]

BudoMan, your grading system seems like a good idea.

I think what are are doing is quantifying the subjective measures already in place in grading. But the problem is, these numbers would still be subjective.

So really, your idea is fine but it adds nothing except subjective numbering, and does not get us closer to any standard of quality.

Many schools already have this kind of grading in place.

Good work, and keep thinking about it.

[budoman5000000]

The example was just for the first level. At level six or seven, the assesments could cover more of what the student wants to know. He could choose what categories he wanted to be assessed in aswell as dong a few compulsory ones. It could be learning more self defense techniques rather than just competition. In the self defense categories, the student can choose a range of things he wans to get assessed on eg one on one, multiple attacks, defense from weapons etc. He could get a very high score on the self defense techniques and go to level 15 say, and get level 4 in competiton techniques. The score that he gets overall will show the level he is at, ad what he needs to work on to bump the score up. The score should be an accurate representation of how much he has learnt.

[DelicateSound]

I can see why you want this system - sometimes it's so hard to measure progress, and to recognise areas of weakness that need working on. It's be great to say:

"Yeah, my Right round Kick's at 48/50, so that's OK, left is just 29/50 - better do some more work on that" etc......

Problem is that you can't monitor stuff like that. Half the battle is recognising self-weakness and adapting to compensate. Your system seems good, but after all a black sash is only different in colour - it won't save you in combat. Unless you hammer nails thru it and use it as a Mace.

BTW: Does this mean that someone else here FINALLY knows what an Oatcake is!!!!?

[apoweyn]

budoman,

so how does this sort of self-directed learning differ from a new style? it won't be named something new, but the result will be that one guy's kung moobey won't be the same as another guy's kung moobey (wow, how about the danger mouse reference!). so, in essence, it would be adding to the number of subjective 'takes' on the arts.


stuart b.

[budoman5000000]

The points that the student gets should be objective as every thing he knows will be noted in the overall score. What will have to happen to make it more objecive are just more thorough regular assessments. This may sound like a huge strain on the teacher, but if the students know exactly what it is they need to work at, it shouldn't be that difficult. Students would want to get higher points, as the points repressent what thy know.

[Paul]

why do you need a grading system at all? You don't.

This is all crap, crap I tell you. How is this going to help me? I think I can figure out what I need to work on (as can my Sifu) without this waste of time and effort. Thanks but there is no way in heck that everyone will buy into this.

[Merryprankster]

The problem is that objective relative to what? Which means it's subjective automatically.

Let's say I have to execute O-Soto-gari in Randori as one of the requirements. Against who? Somebody of similar experience. Ok. fine. What if that guy's a badass and just isn't throwable by somebody like you. What if you KNOW O-Soto-gari, but can't make it work. I mean, I can execute a picture perfect double-leg on somebody not resisting or a novice, but against a good wrestler I can't get it reliably.

Well now we start saying, yes, but the person KNOWS O-Soto-gari, they just aren't very good, but we can't penalize them for that because it's not very fair. I mean, they KNOW how to do it, but just can't.

So is the belt technique based or application based? Do we reward performance or knowledge?

What if I have a guy who knows oh, 4 or 5 basic techniques and he drills them religiously. He's so good with them that he regularly uses those techniques and the principles behind them to defeat people more experienced and advanced. How does this work?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to say it's a hard hard thing.

[budoman5000000]

The techniques that you show in leel one would have to be assessed in the later levles, each time recieving a mark out of ten for the level that he is at. If the student recieves a 8/10 for a trip at level one, at level two the marking of the throw would be marked at a level two standard. There are no basic throws, they are all very similar in terms of working in a fight depending on the level you are at at the throw. Usually the 'Basic' throws are tested at first and never tested again, so the throw will stay at that level while the student is being bombarded with other throws to learn. By level 6 the student should know how to use about 20 throws, but only his selected four or five throws will be assessed regularly as that is all that is necessary.

[budoman5000000]

Does everybody think that it is a bad idea and that i should just forget about it? or is it worth developing it further?

[Merryprankster]

It's worth developing further. What you are talking about would require much more centralization than is going to happen.

Try using it in YOUR system... or one you teach. Then we can move from there... make sense?

[red_fists]

Hi Budoman.

Personally, I think it is a bad Idea.
It leaves itself wide open to abuse and buying of scores. McDojo Syndrome.

The other main problem I have is the same as with the I-Dan System.
The focus of the Traning now changes from learning MA to getting a Belt/Sash/Score.
Nice for People that want to do it as a Sport/competition/recreation.
How would you score the other aspects of an Art, MA is not just about kicking,hitting and throwing people.

In the ol Days MA were often not respected for their techniques, but for how well the did their basic stances.
Sorry, it sounds too much like what happened in Japan where everybody is designed to fit the same mold, great for Japanese as the got the mind and attitude for it.

But for MA to remain effective it needs to become your own System, you need to reach such a level where your System is no longer a system but part of you.

How would your scoring system handle, Qi-Gong, Zhang Zhuang, Chin-Na, Tui Shou, Chi Sao, Weapon Training, Kata/Form execution, etc.
Also what about the differences between internal and external Systems, different mindsets in different MA, and the list goes on.
Some MA start the Beginner of on Weapon and than move onto unarmed Combat.

Some styles are based around Kata and Forms other around Skill Development.
Some rely on Principles more than on technique.
Also you take 50 people teach them your system and you will see 50 different executions of the same technique and 50 different understandings of what was taught.

May I suggest that you spent maybe another 5~7yrs studying 1 Art and than rethink this Idea.
May I suggest that you spent maybe another 5~7yrs studying 1 Art and than rethink this Idea.

[DelicateSound]

In one single system it might work. As an amalgamation of styles. No.

There is too much variation in the MA world for it to be standardised, and I personally don't think it should be. Oh and a wide variety of throws don't mean you can fight.

[apoweyn]

i think you should pursue it, now that i think about it. there are big strides in education today to try different modes of teaching. these modes may never come into common use. but in small settings, they've been extremely successful. they usually involve more 'hands on' classrooms. (rather than reading about weather, you have computer stations that simulate actual weather forecasting equipment, etc.)

in this class, martial arts is inherently hands on (pun intended). but by giving students choices, it may result in a more engaged and invested student. i don't know. but on some scale, it's worth continuing. the final result may well not be what you originally envisioned. but it may be something better still.


stuart b.

p.s. sorry again for being an arsehead in the beginning of this thread. one of those days, i guess.