Wing chun's jook man dummy vs. choy li fut's ching chong dummy

[phantom]

I am just curious why it is safe to bang your arms full force against a choy li fut ching chong dummy but it is not safe to do so against a wing chun jook man dummy? Any information anyone could give me on this topic would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[MoQ]

I don't know where the term "safe" comes from, but these two styles are different, the training on the dummy is different and for different reasons and hitting a Wing Chun dummy full force is just not Wing Chun and the totally wrong way to go about it...

[premier]

What makes you think it's more safe?

anyways. what's the worse thing that can happen? bruise your forearms? that shouldn't be too big deal for southern kung fu practisioners.

[phantom]

Well, some people claim that banging your arms full force against a wooden dummy can cause bone damage.

[phantom]

Also, people claim that that ching chong dummy was made to be used with full force against it, while the wing chun dummy was not. Hence, my conclusion about safety.

[premier]

I think it's impossible to bang your own arms to the dummy to the point of bone damage. The pain will stop you before that.

but it's true that you can hit ching jong pretty hard. I've heard of people doing it so hard that there had to be three men holding the dummy down. but it always depends on you. you know your limits. you know how hard you can hit and still complete the form without falling to the floor because of the pain =)

I don't know too much about that wing chun dummy, but the arms on Ching Jong might be a bit thicker. that would help. the pressure of the impact would divide into bigger area on your forearm. the main arm of the dummy is mobile (weight or spring in the other end -> balanced wooden dummy - Ching Jong). I think that helps too.

anyway. why you want to compare these two dummies? different styles, whole different principles. you practise them both? you might get your hands on the wing chun dummy and learn the form, but it's different with Ching jong. I highly doubt you'll find anyone to teach it to you, unless you're a clf practisioner already and at least on intermediate level.

just research? that's ok.

[MoQ]

Oh, so you mean safe for the dummy? That makes more sense. The WC jong arms are cut like 2in square into the dummy, fitted loosely and CAN be broken off. Anyone caught doing this on purpose should have to relinquish their jong to ME, who will give it a loving home...

[BIU JI]

The damage done will not always be done in one session or strike , it could be a gradual weakening of the bone or small crack can appear so marrow will come out. Particularly on the hand where the bones are smaller.ˇ

[phantom]

Well, I am really interested in, and have been conducting research on, both of these styles, yet I could never figure out why you could hit one dummy with full force and not the other, since they are both made out of wood. After what you guys have told me, it makes more sense to me now. Biu Ji, what you said seems sensible, as someone told me to wear thin golves, like the ones that cover only the bottom half of your fingers, when using the dummy. I wonder if tying a coarse rope around the dummy's arms would protect your arms bett

[baochui]

Hello All,

In the training I did with the Hung Gar practitioners, the wooden dummy had to be made specially to prevent the arms from being broken off by the stronger practioners. The Southern Fist training I've been taught had me hitting the arms as hard as I (as an individual) could. With time and consistency, the strikes to the arms of the dummy can be incredibly hard, while causing no "dammage" to one's self. The Hung Gar teacher who is teaching me the Southern methods of training has developed his arms to the point the he breaks the arms of a standard dummy--incredible power. So the arms on the dummy at his gym are made of three-inch dowels and they have a one-half-inch slack with rubber bushings inside to allow enough give to keep the arms from breaking. Of course, conditioning and strengthening to this point can take many years...the "safe" manner all depends on the system's philosophy and function of the training, as well as the individual's abilities and weaknesses. I now train on a dummy, as well as doing many other forms of both conditionig and movement work, BUT, I must say that a certain level of "safety" must be maintained by the individual to keep from over-doing it and causing self-injury. I have pushed too far and fractured my arm (and shin acutally) bones past the "training" level, and I had to take a leave of absence from that kind of training--counter productive. The key is knowing when to say when...

Respectfully,
Baochui

[meltdawn]

Bui Ji says:
"it could be a gradual weakening of the bone or small crack can appear so marrow will come out"

and Baochi says:
"I have pushed too far and fractured my arm"

How do you tell a fracture from a bone bruise? I have one area of bone that seems to "refuse" to toughen up. I am now leaving it alone to heal, as I may have over-injured it, but how does one train a place that seems to be overly sensitive without injury?

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Actually, you can hit the WC dummy as hard as you want, but then you won't be using it correctly. The WC dummy isn't really designed to be used as a conditioning tool, or something to practice how hard you can hit on. If you want that, go hit a post outside somewhere. The WC dummy is designed to be used as a tool to correct your technique, and has a bunch of ways it does that. Firstly, the force in WC isn't directed at the arms, but instead at the trunk of the dummy itself, so even when someone is striking the arms the force should be slicing back in towards the trunk. This is partly why the arms are loosly placed, as well as the looseness of the trunk on the supports. Every strike should move the dummy to the fullest extent of it's rotation (how much it can all shift from one side to the other). I don't know if this is making any sense, but there you go. So I would say that the reason you don't it it very hard is that was never what is was designed to do. Kinda like using a hand trowel to slice bread, you can do it, but that's not really what it was designed for.

Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]
Wing Chun Forum Moderator.
Student-www.authentickungfu.com

[fiercest tiger]

well the wing chun jong uses more of a tapping or shocking power like ykm, bak mei. choy lee fut might use a follow through striking method, i have seen the choy lee fut dummy only twice and they dont shock the dummy, they bash the dummy if you know what i mean. their strikes come from a longer distance compared to wing chun dummy strikes. wing chun would use centerline and straightline attackes when choy lee fut would use circling energy, and swinging arm techniques. i could be wrong vingtsunstudent would probably be the best to ask.

also i was told that tapping and shocking power would sink deep into the bone and it would release bone marrow then that calsifies making the bone harder. just smashing can cause bone bruises and hairline fractures and takes a long time to heal, then you will be out of training for a good amount of time, allowing it to heal.

hope that helped.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[vingtsunstudent]

i would pretty much have to agree with sandman.
although we do meet the arms with some force on some occasions, it is more of a shearing one.
the dummy is also used as a training partner if one is not available & for practicing many of the moves that are unable to be trained in chi sao.
when doing this you are also looking to hear certain sounds as the dummy is a good teacher & can let you know when you are making mistakes.
the dummy also teaches us what could be considered our 4th empty hand form.(all movements from the dummy can be & should be practiced in the air)
can i also just say in regards to choy li fut that my sifu & sigung fought many of these guys & from fighting them my sifu has been able to show us why they are such top fighters.they are actually dammmmm good in close & not all their strikes are circular.
vts

[fiercest tiger]

are you saying the choy lee fut dummy is more straight line then circular? i know clf has close range straight line techniques, but majority of clf use circuling techniques. the dummy form ive seen must have been different to the one you've seen.

how many clf fighters did your sifu fight and did he beat them all?
thanks

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[vingtsunstudent]

no i am only talking of their strikes, i haven't seen them work the dummy.
just the same as it a mere beginner that only thinks that all wing chun's strikes come from centre, all clf strikes are not circular.
as to the amount of times my sifu fought them, i could not say. as you know most true fighters do not talk all that much of these things.
all i know is that he won many, many, many more than he lost.
you don't have people like wong say things like he did about barry without reason.
under wong's teaching he was the only forienger & one of only four to be trained for the sole purpose of fighting challenge matches.
vts

[Kevin Barkman]

For those who are interested, there is an excellent book published on this topic called "Choy Lee Fut Wooden Dummy Techniques" by Sifu Ho Ngau (a student of Ngan Yiu Ting & Chan Koon Pak). There are 132 movements to this form, along with all kinds of great info on the CLF art.

ISBN 962-326-080-6 (I believe 1975).

[alecM]

With the forearm being one of the main striking weapons in the CLF arsenal, striking the Ching Jong with near full force conditions the forearm just as a makiwara conditions a traditional Karate practitioners knuckles.

Saying is not boasting at all