Question about conditioning : /

[Akuma]

Hi, I was wondering what the deal is with conditioning...I know it is to toughen the body so that getting hit doesn't feel as bad but do you guys know if it is bad for you in old age? Like, will you end up with weak joints and non healthy bones etc??

Also, my other question is, if I want to condition myself am I supposed to keep going until i get bruises or am I supposed to not let it go that far?

thanx :)

note: I'm new to Martial Art and I'm learning wing chun :)

[Kristoffer]

I think that if u just do it correctly then u wont have any problems when old. Of corze you don't start with hittin full force, you work yourself up. I started lightly hitting logs of wood and stones, trees etc,, now I mostly hit full force. First time doing it, stop when u start to bleed. Massage with liniment or that dit da jow (I used liniment and always have), then let it heal and u repeat, but stop b4 bleeding : )
If u when doing it l<ater will start to bleed, just let it heal and go a little esy next time. Im really no expert on the subject but we alwasy condition in almost every 'class'.

[Leonidas]

Hehehe, Akuma.... Ryu's arch-enemy. Oh yea about that conditioning thing. It depends on who you train with. Thai Kickboxers are tough but i don't of any who fight in their old age, probably won't fight past 30 or 40, so that wouldn't be my first choice. There are some good books on Amazon. com for Body Conditioning since i dont think Wing Chun has much of that. You know, just fighting will give your some resistance to pain from strikes. Getting socked in the face a couple times a week, you'll notice it doesn't hurt as much as the first time. I dont mean purposefully telling someone to punch you in the face. It was an example. Its like what Kristoffer suggested but your training while you do it. I've heard of some people putting Dit Da jow all over there torso and then sparring. Mind over Matter is really important too. People can take a lot of pain if they wanted to.

[SevenStar]

It's not thai conditioning that makes the fighters like that - It's the fighting. You can only take so many elbows and knees before it starts to wear on you. Thai conditioning is basically bag work, and striking to certain areas of the body, not unlike chinese arm boxing.

As far as old age, it may actually help. Conditioning the bones promotes bone density.

[nospam]

It sounds like you are talking about conditioning in terms of 'toughening' the body to take strikes. If so, this type of conditioning will occur to an extent that will do you good by, by simply attending class regularily and working on 2-person drills, home exercises, and dedication to over-all physical conditioning.

The conditioning of increased trauma to the body to harden you up will take its toll in the long run. And, if I might say, is needless in the world of modern martial arts. Unless you are zealous or just freaky - then who am I to suggest you do otherwise, eh? ;)

Think over-all body and mind conditioning - this wills erve you well into the age of bragging to the young'ns about your gung fu prowess..amongst other things.

Train hard, but smart.

nospam.
:cool:

[EARTH DRAGON]

Just out of curiosity why are you trying to toughen up your body when one of the goal's of training is not to be hit?

Its like in indiana jones when the sword master started swining his sword and dr jones pulls out a gun and shot him.... all that training went out the window.

Train and spend the time to learn how not to be hit and then you can stop beating yourself up.

Then conditioning your body to take a punch will seem silly....
remember that best way not to get hit is not be there.......

[SevenStar]

ED, I have all the respect for you in the world, but it yanks my chain every time I see you post this:

"Just out of curiosity why are you trying to toughen up your body when one of the goal's of training is not to be hit?"

Sure, you don't want to be hit, but most likely you will be. You want to be prepared in the event that you are hit. Later down the line, when you are a master (and even then, it's still likely that you'll get hit, depending on the situation and the opponent) then you won't need it, but until then, you should be as prepared as you possibly can.

[Kristoffer]

"Then conditioning your body to take a punch will seem silly....
remember that best way not to get hit is not be there.......
"

------------------
extremely naive and ignorant words...
If I want to punch you, to take your wallet. I dont stand infront of u in a stance "hey let's fight!!" I walk really close to ya without u even noticing and all of a sudden.. *smack!* I punch u in the face/belly with a elbow knee whatever. No way u can block that man! Just a simple fact as that u can't be avare of everything that goes around you all the time. And u will be hit. all your beliefs are out the window and you are left without a wallet.
"best way not to get hit is not be there"
I agreee, but u will get hit anyway, even if this is true. And if ya get hit don't u think that you should be able to take a hit? I'd like to see you enter any form of competition with that mindset. You would get clocked

[EARTH DRAGON]

Wow I didnt think that my post would get this much attention and I did not mean it in a sarcastic way. I just want you to consider time /practice mangement.

Seven star,
thank you for your respect. I didnt mean that you will never get hit but to practice not to i.e, (good blocking skills) would be far more advantageous than say conditioning your shins. If you are fighting in the ring or Thai boxing professionally or amatur then yes conditioning would be nesccessary but toughing your entire body would takes years as would iron bell training and for what? if you are doing it for self perservation or for a fighting career than thats fine but to spend the adequte amount of time "many years" it would seem as though you finally reach your goal your attitude and maturity would change and your outlook on fighting would hopefully be less of an importantance. I practice Iron palm and I have seen deformed hands, knuckles and arthriic fingers from improper training so If your practice is done wrong you can severly damage your health as was said about when you reach old age in the thread starter.

Kristoffer, I am going to reply to to help you understand where I am comming from, not from your somewhat ludicrous post.

Learning martial arts teaches you about distance and defense. I would think that if someone was close enough to you to hit you without time to react you have not learned situation awarness. If they want your wallet they are going to take it, and usually a mugger has a knife of a gun so they are getting it anyway so your analogy isnt realistic.
It's up to you not to let that situation get to that point, I am sure you can fell the difference when someone walks up to you with postitive or negitive vibes. Plus if you are conditioned as this thread is suggesting how do you condition your face? most fights from muggers or untranined people go for the face or head they will not punch you in the stomach or arms.... so please dont think that what I said was ignorant or naive.
I have been teaching prayingmnatis kung fu for 7 years and have trained for over 20 and yes I fought full contact in the ISKA for almost 3 years and have done security and bounced for the last 10 so its impossible to judge people on these bords for the 1 or 2 posts that you have read from them so please dont make sweeping accusations simply from what you read. Some people will take it very personal. take care your freind E.D

[mestre]

Did any1 see that progarm (uk) on national geographic last night? it had this 60 old chinese man i think he did red sand palm style where he conditioned his hands by striking a bucket of frozen vegetables then moving on to iron fillings first round then jaggered. Also conditioned his head by doing handstand against tree and smacking his head against the floor. Didnt seem to affect his bones or anything but i guess if you did it wrong u could screw yourself up

[EARTH DRAGON]

There are many ways to damage yourself when improperly conditioning. In iron palm we too hit iron pellets but you use homemade dit dat jow and qigong excersises to compensate blood flow/stagnation. I knew a guy that use to hit the mkiwara board daily and never used qigong or herbs many years later he has little mobilty with that hand due to deforming rehmuthoid arthritis..... thats what happens when you practice improperly..

[Tigerstyle]

"...Plus if you are conditioned as this thread is suggesting how do you condition your face? most fights from muggers or untranined people go for the face or head they will not punch you in the stomach or arms..."

While the face itself probably can't be conditioned much, you can train yourself to get used to the impact of a strike to the head without losing much focus. When someone gets KO'd from a strike to the face, it's not because their face took too much damage, it's because of the effect the strike had on the head (brain).

Also conditioning the arms and legs aids in your striking ability, not necessarily just for getting hit in those regions.

Interesting thread everyone. :)

[anerlich]

Russian Martial Arts approach this from a different perspective. Rather than trying to make the body "harder", they start by learning to absorb blows with incrementally increasing power. "Absorption" is done via breathing, relaxing the body and allowing it to move in the direction of the force.

Most untrained people react to a blow to the stomach by tensing their abdomen and holding their breath - according to RMA this is the wrong thing to do, as it inhibits movement of the body allowing the force to be dissipated, and in effect holds the internal organs in place so they wear the full impact. holding the breath further inhibits movement to allow dissipation of the force.

If you exhale and consciously relax with the blow, while moving with it, you can dissipate the force over a short distance, and the internal organs can move around the impact resulting in less trauma.

Anyone who has done BJJ or sub wrestling for a while will remember what it felt like being put in a decent knee-on-stomach position for the first time. It feels like you're going to get squashed - some novices even tap at this point. By relaxing and not fighting it you can plan your defense or escape from this position more effectively. And you can take a LOT of weight.

RMA don't try to make themselves invulnerable to attacks, rather to remove the overreaction resulting from the fear of being hit. That allows them then to respond more effectively to an oncoming shot, and makes the training more realistic by allowing the trainees to work with powerful, accurate strikes.

This approach does work with face shots to some degree, you can lessen the impact by turning or rolling the head with the shot, the basis of "shedding", or "rolling with the punches". I'm sceptical about whether doing anything other than VERY light drilling with head shots is a good idea and feel this is better learnt during sparring where you will get hit anyway.

It also comes down to protecting soft targets, e.g. better to take a punch on the crown of the head or glove rather than the jaw, and probably better the jaw rather than the throat or the temple. It's always better to not be there, but it's a luxury. IMHO it's better to be able to deal with the worst case, then anything else is a bonus.

If you do any hard sparring or fighting, you WILL get hit - I was sparring last night and had to "absorb" a few good head shots. we all have to deal with it one way or another, RMA's way is one, iron shirt or golden bell another.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Tiger stlye, about KO's I couldnt agree with you more. The ways to get knocked out are when the medulla oblongatta bends due to a sharp blow to the chin, when the stem bends at more then a 20 degree angle this triggers the bodies override system and shuts down tempoarily.
The other way is when the telencepalon membrain fluid is moved towards the occipital lobe due to the impact which forces the brain to close to the inside of the skull.

However both ways are extremly hard to condition since it is a involuntary reaction. One can toughen their skull but again I ask why spend the time? what the point? When Io practice I would want to make the most and get the most out of it. So my whole point is WHY?

Anelich. good post
Yes many styles have thist, it is most apparnt in japanese arts such as karate. They have whats called a "kiai" which is used for several perposes, one of which is to use the breath for displacing compression upon impact. Again great post

[Akuma]

I'd just like to thank everyone for their input in this thread!! It's all been very good and constructive :)

I'm still working this out...I'll reply to some of the posters as soon as I get a chance :)

Thanks :)