Studen<------------>Teacher

[Arhat of Fury]

AOF here,

What are you all's opinion about student teacher relatioships. Do you beleive that the Teachr must respect the student just as the student respects the Teacher. Or do you think that the Teach/Sifu can and should act however he wants to and the student should give unconditional respect. Some may say" this man is passing on his knowledge of this sacred art to you" but we are also giving these masters our hard earned money. What are you thoughts on this? What have you experienced? What would you put up with? And, what wouldn't you put up with?


AOF



"If your comin on".... "COME ON":D

[Water Dragon]

Mutual respect is necesary for learning to occur.

[Ray Pina]

I have been blessed with good teachers.

I have been scolded pretty harshly as a kid studying Isshin-Ryu, but I'm sure I deserved it, and there was no hard feelings. I was the youngest student my senei ever took in. His daughter had to change my gi a few times when I peed my pants after being refused the bathroom. I recently whent home and visited this man. He's much older now. And I can say that the feelings I have for him are those of true love. Similiar to, but different then that of my father (I saw my sensei more as a kid, for my father was breaking his back to feed me).

My Hun Gar teacher was aloof, had his seniors teach me mostly. After lion dancing for him and showing intrest, he invited me to his "special classes." I learned what I learned, and then moved on. Wasn't what I was looking for.

My S. Mantis teacher was and still is a big, powerful man who moves well. Soft spoken, one would not want to get him angry. There were only about five of us training with him, and it was more like family (call when you need ANYTHING, no matter the time). We were careful never to bring in bad elements, emotional of physical (people). I still keep in touch with this man. He gained my undying respect, when he actually had nothing but great things to say about the man I wanted to break off and go study with. At the time there was some behind the scene political garbage going on, so the choice was a wise one for many reasons.

My present sifu, Master Chan, is probbaly the most remarkable person I have ever shared a room with. I haven't spent any time with him outside of class or "getting to know each other." I admit, at times I feel like a little kid in the room with Michael Jordan. This man is my hero, because he represents all that is true in the martial arts, a 100% no BS, straight shooter. His techique is without question the best I have ever scene. Looking back now, I was only fooling myself thinking I was reday to fight the bigger man. Or at least one of any decent skill.

Where this will go, who knows. But I'm in this one for keeps.

As far as what will I accept or not accept. Not even an issue. Someone of his caliber is beyond comfotable in his own skin.
As for us, teacher is beyond fair, beyond patient. He treats everyone like a human being.

[txwingchun]

Originally posted by Arhat of Fury
AOF here,

What are you all's opinion about student teacher relatioships. Do you beleive that the Teachr must respect the student just as the student respects the Teacher. Or do you think that the Teach/Sifu can and should act however he wants to and the student should give unconditional respect. Some may say" this man is passing on his knowledge of this sacred art to you" but we are also giving these masters our hard earned money. What are you thoughts on this? What have you experienced? What would you put up with? And, what wouldn't you put up with?


AOF



"If your comin on".... "COME ON":D

Respect should be mutual,unconditional respect is usually the first sighs of a cult. I'm paying my hard earned money to learn not to be treated like trash.

[Robinf]

I agree with txwingchun. Get what you pay for. You're paying to learn Kung Fu. You're not paying to be embarrassed, harrassed or in any way abused.

The teacher should lead by example.

Robin

[Arhat of Fury]

Amen to that!, anyone else have input?

[shaolinboxer]

Teachers should be grateful for their students, just as students should be grateful for their teachers.

Mutual respect and gratitude is the best way.

[JasBourne]

Pretty much has been said, nothing to add here, I just have a neurotic compulsion to post "me too"!

:D ;)

[Fifth Brother]

Respect is not mutual. The teacher respects the student as a student - to teach him within the bounds of the student's understanding and character.
The student respects the teacher as a teacher - one who has dedicated his life to his art and is carrying on the tradition and teaching of his art and his teacher. The teacher is giving the student an art which will serve him in all aspects of life and last him a lifetime. This deserves a special kind of respect and courtesy from the student to the teacher.
What the teacher is teaching the student in a traditional school cannot be bought by money, but must be earned through hard work, courtesy, respect, integrity and loyalty. The money provided by the student in a non-commercial traditional school goes towards the rent, overhead and upkeep of the school.
If the student is going to a 'commercial' school - he gets just that.

[Arhat of Fury]

5th Bro,
So what you are saying is that because the Teacher is teaching and passing the art to you, you should be unconditionally grateful no matter if he treats you like $hit or constantly downs on you or constantly tells the class immoral ideals. Im confused, I thought the true essence of Kung Fu was to build inner character with respect, righteousness, trust, will, courage and self defense.:confused: Thats like saying "I pay my car insurance so I am able to show a police oficcer my ID card when I get pulled over, not so that I am covered if I get into a wreck. Do you think a true Master would eminate the full package including respect, after all, the lack of respect comes from anger and anger stems from fear?
Please clarify your post,


AOF:confused:

[Ray Pina]

5th Bro is.

He never said anything about unconditional or being treated poorly. Just that, the teacher does not need you -- especially if its not a commercial school and he/she is the real deal.

As a true student, one that really wants to learn, you better show respect. The teacher = the boss.

If you don't understand that, you'll always be questioning him (as you should if he's not legit, as so many are). But once you find the real deal, you should have already developed a good martial eye, know the person in front of you is "unique", not an every day run of the mill sensei or sifu, and how could you not give him your respect?

The sifu should not degrade a student, but sometimes, needs to be firm. I think most sifu's let students get away with too much. Too much non-related side show stuff, used as breaks. Or rebuttling. Rebuttling? Why the hell are you there if you are going to rebuttle the teacher.

[rubthebuddha]

evo,

i agree about the sifu thing. i also think a lot of people think some sifus are abusive when all the sifu is doing is giving the student a reality check. take mine: doing chi sau with him involves me getting smacked. a lot. it's not hard contact, but it's not a cute, little love tap, either. he's preparing me, a little more each day, to deal with hard contact, and he's also knocking me down a couple rungs on a ladder to where i need to be. working with my peers can give me an elevated sense of accomplishment, and i can begin to get fancy and overstep my own skills. working with him makes me realize i'm not as good as i think i am and that i really, really need to focus on my basics even more.

plus, a skilled sifu working with students should also use their ability to casually demonstrate where a student can be if they work their bum off. i hope that, given a similar amount of time and effort, i will be as good as my teacher. they guy is amazing, and i want to be amazing, too. :)

[Arhat of Fury]

5th Bro,
I will capitulate with you on a couple of ideas. I can agree that there are certain levels of respect, like you mentioned, although I do think there should still be the basic fundamentals of respect involved in this relationship. Abusiveness should not be tolerated, tough love(for lack of a better term) is different. Agreed.

RTB,
This may pi$$ off some people but Im not sure Id agree with you on the fact that Sifu's do not need the student. What if there were no students, there would probably be some sifu's that have bettered themselves through continuing education and have other skills in their "back pocket" but truthfully, alot would have a hard time. When I say sifu's, i mean the one that have eaten,slept and "you know" kung fu for all or most of their life, 20-30yrs+ of experiance. Not to bash the younger Sifu's or discredit their skilss in any way.


Things to make you say...HMMMMMM

[shaolinboxer]

The masterpiece of the painter is the painting...the masterpiece of the martial artist is the student.

[myosimka]

Hate the term sifu or sensei(for myself). But I teach so I'll take it from that standpoint.
Yes there should be mutual respect but please remember it's not a relationship of equals. I enjoy working out with sparring partners and trading ideas but that's not my class. Both parties need to be respectful and teachers abusing their authority is one of the most egregious sins to me(or any abuse of power/authority) but it's not equals. If my boss didn't show certain respect, I wouldn't work for him but he's still my boss. So that's one factor to keep in mind.
Another is the locale. It's the teacher's place of business. There is a reason restaurants post signs that they reserve the right to refuse service. It's their business. And in the case of a dojo/kwoon/dojang/hall, it's more like a second home. When I have guests in my home, I am a gracious host but my rules are my rules. You don't like my rules there is always the door. Your money buys the right to train with me in my gym. It doesn't buy me.
Lastly, gotta go with evolutionfist here. I want MA to be fun so I do let a fair bit slide. And I am biased but I am of the opinion that respect issues are more often a problem from the students than the teacher. (OK so I am really biased!! plus I have had great teachers) People are often wolflike in that they find their place in social situations by pushing the boundaries. Many of the respect problems are my own fault for allowing them to go to far. But they are still the acts of disrespectful students. I also encourage my students to question me sometimes as I don't know everything and I like to think more about my art and questions spur that. It's probably taken some of that mystical sheen off.
So that's my view from the other side. That being said, I certainly see the potential for the dark side in an instructor. One of my students has reached the level where I encourage people to work with new students in the sihing or sempai role. He's a putz. Condescending, abusive and barely understands his stuff. I have made comments directly to him and I have made comments to the class that they should work with a certain level or above(basically raised the mentoring bar just to exclude this one guy) Next step may require real severity. I've also a known an instructor or 2 where I didn't last the week before deciding that this was not the path for me.

Make your own decision. The teacher offers a product: training and knowledge. How much he offers is up to him. There's a price:
money, time, labor, pain and even attitude are part of the price. What he charges is up to him. Some make it cheap in money. Some make it cheap in attitude. But the instructor still sets the rate. If you think the product is worth the price, great. If not, don't pay it. It's a personal decision based on the individual. Personally I'd pay a lot more in money, time, pain and attitude to train with Helio Gracie than the local KF instructor who teaches wushu downplaying the martial aspects. But it's a personal choice. If you think your sifu's training is worth it, do it. If not don't.

[Arhat of Fury]

myosimka, excellent post. You hit the nail on the head. You put into words what I was having a hard time trying to.
I agreee with you completely and I think Evo and 5th Brother said it as well just in different words.


AOF

[Cody]

Txwingchun's opinion.

There are many aspects; Respect exists in a balance. That is pretty much my conclusion.

I don't consider worship=respect, nor do I think that this promotes healthy psychological balance. Amounts to brainwashing, over time. You might not even know it.

When you cease to be able to question (either because it doesn't occur to you that you should be permitted to do this, or because of fear of consequences (loss of status in school or physical abuse)) the foundation and techniques of what is being taught, there is a problem. Under ideal circumstances, there might be little or no need to question in certain ways. But, if there is, it should be permitted.

Accepting that one is not ready for the complete answer is important on the part of the student (feeling and showing respect), as is the teacher's ability to turn a sincerely asked, naive question into a learning experience for the student, and possibly for the whole class, large or small. No embarassment; no ridicule; and No misleading.
Thinking for yourself does not imply lack of respect for the teacher. But, if this process is discouraged, it does point to lack of respect for the student at the very least, and very possibly indifference towards student wellbeing.

The teacher follows a "way" and reaches some degree of mastery. The student, who is being taught via methods often not identical, might be rushed thru basics, and/or has expectations which the teacher knows right up front will not come to fruition. I'll tell you what gets me. It has been my experience that there is little interest for the development of the best in every serious student, for what is best for the student and for the art as can be expressed by a given student. You're on this assembly line and if you don't suit the agenda (which might be no more than public display of good raw talent), well.... . This lack of interest amounts to lack of respect for student development in general. It can lead to denial of the situation by the students, which doesn't matter to the teacher as long as the money keeps rolling in and the show can go on. It can lead to unnecessary injury. It's almost not safe to be who you are in this arena, but needing to participate differently, even if you show respect and sincerely feel it. Some of what comes up in these discussions deals with that which appears to be under the banner of respect, but isn't really there in terms of what is being demanded.

Respect! Know what it is? It's first respecting each other as people. If you have difficulty thinking of someone off a pedestal, imagine them on the porcelain Honda, and it might bring things back into perspective.

Then, there is respect for the knowledge. And, there is respect for the knowledge as embodied in an individual. And the strengths and flaws in this individual teacher which come into balance with the knowledge. The knowledge does not exist in a vacuum, such that if one has a certain level of it, the totality of the person is benefitted to the point of making the jealous tolerant or the lustful more moderate, or any one of a number of things. Not necessarily so. There is balance in respect too. Immense room for error, flaws, vice. And, also for something wonderful, which would not Demand worship.

The teacher in these days is often offering a "product." Not teaching as was taught to him. I've heard this admitted many times. When you have enough experience to look at the teacher and look at what he is teaching, the fruits of the teaching in the more advanced. If it doesn't add up to anything close to the teacher or even on the way, there is a crossroads. The teacher might be very high level, but what is offered is for the yellow pages in the phone book. Hence, one might respect the training (to the extent that one can perceive it) in the teacher, but feel at a loss. What one might see there is a purely economic operation, a business. The teacher gets some trophy winners and the students feel part of something special, which may or may not be so. I speak from what I 've seen and experienced. I'm not saying it's this way all over. So, please don't get your fur up.

The student shows respect by becoming the best he/she can be, by coming to class on time, by consideration for classmates, by regarding the knowledge as serious and the teacher as a trusted guide, who is not to be mistreated, just as the student should not be. If the last point is not honored, we are not speaking of respect, but of domination.

Cody

[rubthebuddha]

arhat: whoa there tiger. sorry i gave you that impression. i don't believe that sifus don't need students. they definitely do, not only to nurture but also learn from. i've learned so much as a student instructor from my students through their questions and observations that i wouldn't be anywhere near as competent as i am today without them (not that i'm all that competent with my art, but i'm working toward it).

what i was saying is that sometimes students take a sifu's continual testing and pushing to mean abusing and shoving. mine? everytime i touch hands with him, i'm getting a lesson. i get hit a lot, but not so hard that i'm going to even think about leaving, but not so soft that i think that i'm being tickled. pain is a great motivator, even the small amounts. tickling just annoys me.

if anything, training like that should be mandatory, because in a real rumble, you ARE going to take some damage. how you deal with that damage -- if you cower and let the chump eat you alive, or if you put on your superhero cape and fight the mofo off like you were superman -- can often make or break your own survival. so the chump got in a couple good shots. just make sure you get in the better shots and lots more of them. to help this, train with people better than you and learn from the contact.

[Arhat of Fury]

RTB,

I hear ya, I too have learned alot from helping others. Maybe it was the context that cought my eye, but I agree and have no problem with the physical lessons. I do understand that alot of sifus do this to show effectiveness of the technique and to get you used to takig a punch. I am thinking of the more verbal aspects of respect.

Thanks for your comments,

AOF

[red_fists]

Mutual respect.

I also give respect to my fellow students that I also learn from.

But most respect goes to Teacher, as the Guy has to be there for every single lesson regardless of how many Students show up.

He as a Teacher has a much stronger commitment to MA than most students.

[TenTigers]

When one bows to their Sifu, it is one of mutual respect. The bow is always returned. There is a saying,"Without a Sifu, you wouldn't be a student, without students, I wouldn't be a Sifu"
I love my students. Our school is truly a family, where new students feel welcome, and seniors feel at home. Respect is there for many reasons; one, because by teaching, you give them your time, your experience, your self. No assembly line, belt factory McKwoon, but alot of hands on one on one. Everyone counts. And why not? Everyone is a person, an individual, everyone wants to feel special. I have been in schools where everyone was just rank and file, and I was made to feel that way. I never want any of my students to ever feel that.
There are peple who abuse the privilege. Power trippers. "I'm Sifu and you'd **** well better bow!" Students will put their teacher up on a pedestal, no matter how down to earth and accesable you try to be. To take advantage of this is dishonerable. There are many of these schools around, and they have cult-like followings.
When one shows respect and is treated with respect, they develop self-respect. They feel better about themselves.When this happens, they end up treating others equally. They have nothing to prove. Egos have no place in a mo-kwoon.
When a student enters and leaves the mo-kwoon, they are expected to bow and greet their Sifu and Si-Mo. This is common courtesy. You don't walk in and out of your house without greeting your parents, do you?
Respect is a way of showing gratitude, of honoring your art, your teachers, your family, your self. It is a way to develop self-esteem, as well as humility.
my two cents-for what it's worth

[Fifth Brother]

Ah!...lot of posts.
Let me clarify my first post.
Teacher and student show each other mutual respect as human beings. But when it comes to respect as teacher and student, the respect is not mutual ie. the same. In the bow, the student is non-verbally saying he will be diligent in his studies and train hard, he will not bring dishonor to his teacher or school through his actions, he respects the time and effort his teacher gives to him, he will be an honorable student. When the teacher returns the bow, he is saying, I will teach you to the best of my abilites, I will not hold back and will teach you in accord with your understanding and character, I will not mislead you, I will teach you what you need - skill, knowledge and character. So the respect is not mutual. I think maybe mutual is not the best term for this - it is different type of respect the student gives to the teacher as compared to what the teacher gives to the student.
Often when students are in the school for awhile, they begin to think they know just as much as the teacher and in some cases know better. When this happens, they need a 'lesson' to bring them back on the path or to send them on their way. When I say teacher, I am referring to a true master, one who has many years of knowledge and experience behind him. This type of teacher has already learned from lower rank students when he was helping his teacher to run a class. Now, at the level of a true master, he has so much experience and knowledge, that he is no longer learning from his students.
True masters, do not need students, but they do want to pass the art on, but only to the 'right' student. If he cannot find one, he would rather let the art die with his passing, than to give it to someone who does not deserve it. And this has happened in the past.

[Arhat of Fury]

Great ideals folks. Once again, back on the path. This really helps clarify some of my deepest concerns and lets me know that My picture of a decent to good Sifu is not like trying to find something too perfect. I started to question that maybe its me or maybe I am meking up this Sifu that doesnt exist. At any rate, thanks again and train harder!


Amitoufu,

AOF

[TenTigers]

Arhat, I have always had this idea of what a Sifu should be. Probably spent too much time watching Kung-Fu, thinking I was going to meet Master Po. I am now realizing that sifus are human too, and suffer from human frailties. A few Sifus that I have studied under, I left because they were of a moral calibre that I couldn't,wouldn't tolerate. I am not holier than thou, but there are certain ideals that I hold myself to, and will not compromise.-although, being human, I have certainly approached it, I again am not perfect. (I'm only human,I'm trying to outgrow it) Some of these are jealosy, power tripping,control freaks,two-facedness (I just made up that word!) So instead of searching for that Sifu, I will try too become that Sifu to my students.

[Arhat of Fury]

10 Tigers,
Glad Im not the only one whos been(going) through that. It kind of reminds me of Father<---->Son relationship. Most sons(that will one day be fathers) grow up and notice thisgs that Dad did that they feel is not right , involuntarily(sometimes voluntarily) the make sure they dont make those same mistakes that their father did.

I think it boils down to one question a person must ask themselves. Does the good outweigh the bad? It is also very hard to make a decision about leaving a sifu because of the loyalty factor.

Thank you for the comisseration(just made that up)


AOF

[myosimka]

"Thank you for the comisseration(just made that up)"

Nah. you just misspelled it. 2 ms 1 s.