Lock elbows in punching?

[IronFist]

Ok. When you're punching in the air, do you fully extend your arms (so the elbows lock) or not? What about when punching the wall bag? I heard they're opposite but I forgot which is which.

Hey, I'm in a computer lab here. Look at me, everyone! I'm on kfo!!!

Iron :)

[Kuen]

I don't think you'd ever want to lock your elbows out. Locking them out not only damages them but makes your arm one big ol' lever so that you can be controlled easily or maybe put in an arm bar.

[Marshdrifter]

I agree with Kuen. In addition to the lever argument, people also
sometimes hurt their elbows if they punch too hard and lock the
elbows.

[IronFist]

So I stop the punch right before a full extension, right?

Sorry, I don't have a sifu to ask so I ask you guys instead :)

IronFist

[whippinghand]

No stopping of the punch. It's all in the positioning of the muscles.

[IronFist]

No stopping of the punch.

I mean begin to retract it. I know you wouldn't just leave it hanging out there :) I meant you retract the punch before the elbow locks.

It's all in the positioning of the muscles.

I don't know about you, but I think my muscles are all positioned in the same places as almost everybody elses... o.O

:)

Iron

[red_fists]

Hi IronFist.

Locking of an elbow can damage your shoulder joint as well.

Leave it slightly loose to absorb impact.

[urban tea]

Actually a lot of peple in the hong kong group and others do lock their elbows when punching.

When you first start wc, they have you punch slowly until you build elbow energy. AFter that you can punch at normal speed without damage.

Punching with locking the elbow increases power but of course you're in danger of getting your elbow broken.

Tsui seung Tin and his group, ah cheung, ah dak, kenneth chung, leung sheung, lok yiu all punched that way with the elbow locked.

[vingtsunstudent]

the elbow should be fully extended, just not hyper-extended.
i'm sure that everyone knows that there is a difference.
vts

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by IronFist
I mean begin to retract it. I know you wouldn't just leave it hanging out there I meant you retract the punch before the elbow locks No retracting either.


Originally posted by urban tea
Actually a lot of peple in the hong kong group and others do lock their elbows when punching. All the more reason not to...


When you first start wc, they have you punch slowly until you build elbow energy. Elbow energy????


AFter that you can punch at normal speed without damage. For about 20 years, at which point you have to stop punching altogether because the arthritis is too painful.


Punching with locking the elbow increases power but of course you're in danger of getting your elbow broken.Something to think about, isn't it?


Tsui seung Tin and his group, ah cheung, ah dak, kenneth chung, leung sheung, lok yiu all punched that way with the elbow locked. What are you suggesting with that statement?

[urban tea]

Whippinghand,

I love your tone of " voice" in your post. You seem very friendly.

You asked......
Tsui seung Tin and his group, ah cheung, ah dak, kenneth chung, leung sheung, lok yiu all punched that way with the elbow locked.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What are you suggesting with that statement?
=-------------

What I am suggesting? Well it's not wrong do punch with your elbows locked. I just started wc and I come from a different backgroudn where we don't lock our elbows. And some of the other classmates from choy lay fut background argue with the teacher about locking elbows with the danger of getting elbows broken by CLF guys or white crane guys.

The teacher likes to do it that way and well the hong kong group that does lock their elbows when punching... i'm sure they know that the elbow can be broken. They are not *******es.

----------
whipping hand
For about 20 years, at which point you have to stop punching altogether because the arthritis is too painful.
------------------

Some of those HK guys have been practicing wc for over 40 years and they have no arthritis. WHen they punch, it's important to point out that their bicep is not flexed. It is relaxed punching at normal speed.

whipping hand ! happy and i said HAPPY chinese new years. =]

[curtis]

Hello
I was tought to punch to full extension but not to lock the joint. there is a difference.
If you lock the joint energy will rush into the hand and cause the elbo to hyperextend.
But if you punch fully and let the tendons snap the hand/arm back there will be no undue stress on the joint.
the goal should to build tendon streangh but not damage the joint,and of matter of course, there should be no power put into any strike until you actually make contact with you target.
"Well thats my two cents"
CAN ANY ONE MAKE CHANGE??
;) SEE YA LATTER! C.A.G.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by urban tea
You seem very friendly.I know it's hard to believe, but I'm always smiling.


Well it's not wrong do punch with your elbows locked.Your right. It's not wrong. Nothing is every wrong. It's just not in one's best interest to do so, from a practical and health standpoint.


The teacher likes to do it that way and well the hong kong group that does lock their elbows when punching... i'm sure they know that the elbow can be broken. They are not *******es. Hopefully they don't know. 'Cause if they do know, and they still do it.... frankly, they're more of an idiot for knowing. (Ignorance IS bliss.)

If a position is susceptible to breaking, 1) there is minimal power in the movement, 2) it indicates that the practitioner does not understand flow.

By the way, I need a translation of "*******es".

[S.Teebas]

Tsui seung Tin and his group, ah cheung, ah dak, kenneth chung, leung sheung, lok yiu all punched that way with the elbow locked.

Are you so sure of this? Is it a Fact?

[cobra]

If your elbow locks out then the energy at the elbow is going upward, which can cause it to hyperextend. If the force is going forward from the elbow, you will get a full extension and a much more powerful punch without hyperextension.

[IronFist]

I'm not quite sure I know what you're referring to by "hyperextension." My elbow joints go to exactly 180 degrees. I don't have one of those weird arms that some people have where their elbow actually goes more than 180 degrees when they lock it out.

So, instead of just saying "it means this and not this, there is a difference," it would be more helpful to me if you were to say "... this is the difference" or "this is how you do it..."

Thanks,

IronFist

[red_fists]

Hi IronFist.

Let me try to explain it, but might be wrong.

Yes, your arm goes to 180 degrees.

Extension = Arm is straight and the joints & muscles are still "loose".

Hyper Extension = Arm is straight with all your Muscles tense and joitsn locked.

People correct me if I got it wrong.

[vingtsunstudent]

IronFist
i'm sure if you look properly you will find that you can
hyper-extend your elbow, think of your legs.
straight, then fully straight(ie hyper-extended)
god, i am such a pathetic beginner that i can't even think how to put it in words, never the less there is a difference.
or try straightening your arm & then once this is done see if you can pop your elbow up a little more from the vertical fist position.
this now hyper-extended.
vts

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Just my 2-cents FWIW ;)

IMHO locking out the elbows would niot be the optimum method for a couple of reasons.

1) As already pointed out you run the risk of hyperextending the elbow and causing damage to the elbow joint and possibly the shoulder as well. :(

2) With a fully locked out arm you have nothing in reserve. You have fully comitted to that punch/movement. You lose the felxibility to change or modify your technique quickly.

3) If the joint is already extended then it takes far less effort on the opponents part, sometimes even by accident, to damage your arm so you may not be able to use it again right away.

Most of what I just said has already been stated here so it should be nothing new. I teach to fully extend the arm but to not lock the elbows in training. I do this because I want people to train the FULL Range of Movement. This will help to strengthen the tendons and ligiments. This should be done slowly and with a snap at the end. It is kind of like Yin and Yang. There is only "tension" for lack of a better word, at the end of the punch. Prior to that and immediately after delivering the punch the entire arm, and body, should be relaxed again. However when you fully extend the punch you never want to "lock" it out fully. There is a difference which can sometimes be very subtle. Try this stick your arm straight. Now fully extend it, now push it a bit further. I think you will be able to feel the difference. Although your arm may not move much past the 180' if at all in the final position you should be able to feel the tension around the elbows and even the shoulders.

Now if you train to fully extend the arm and relax right away you will get the extension and there will be a slight retraction due to the tension being released. Also, by staying relaxed any energy returned to you by the punch, and you will get some energy back, will be more easily disolved due to the relaxation and spring-like quality you develope. If you punch a wall bag for example; the energy of the punch comes from the floor through your body and through the arm into the wall bag then wall. The energy will have nowhere to go as the wall is unyeilding, unlike a human target, thus the energy will come back through the wall through your arm and back through your body to the ground. If you are relaxed, and not fully locked, this energy will dissipate at various points, wrist, elbow, shoulder, waist legs, ground. If locked and still tense this energy will not move smooothly through your body and will get caught up along the way potentialy causing some problems.

Now in application the punch should, again IMHO, not extend fully but have a slight bend in the arm. My reason for this is that it allows you a cushion to work with. If your punch is a bit short or the opponent moves it enables you to have a little bit held in reserve to then extend if needed. Without this "reserve" you have comitted to the movement and would need to rechamber in order to continue with the punch, thus in fact going to a new punch. With a slightly bent elbow you can continue from the same punch and extend fully if the need is there. Besides, you can hit quite hard without fully extending the arm. You will also find that should you get in a bind your arm will have a bit more play in it and be less susceptible to movemetns causing damge. Your arm can still be damaged but you have a bit of play to help you avoid it.

I believe that much of this was already said and only wish to put a slightly different spin on it. You can punch any number of ways but if you comitt yourself fully you may have violated some principle of Wing Chun. Think about it, do we ever want to not have something in reserve, just in case???

Peace,

Dave

[curtis]

NICELY SAID DAVE (sehing73)
I hope everyone understands there is a big differance between a chunchoie and a reverce punch! its the differance between a concussion strike, and a kinetic strike. (Bruce Lee in an interview, stated its like a ball and chain, when it strikes it causes more damage... there is more to the quote but I hope you get the point.)

sehing73. stated that there should be no tension in the arm until the point of contact... I cannot agree more.
Have a good day C.A.G.

humm? PERHAPS INSTEAD of asking for change, I should have dialed 10,10,220? ;)LOL

[Chum Kil]

What I was told is that the punch should have a whipping motion. Some people punch with a piston like motion which I have been told is wrong. Your punches should resemble a rubber band. A piston like punch might reach your opponent quicker, but with less power. A whipping like punch has alot more power behind it, more momentum. A whipping like punch takes a little more time to develop than a piston like punch. This is hard for me to explain in words, but to show someone its like night and day.

[stuartm]

You should never go full lock - you'll get tennis elbow ! It is especially bad to lock when you are punching in the air - there is nothing to absorb the force.

[fa_jing]

How about this - if you feel moderate pain in your elbow - you're doing it wrong.

-FJ

[Roy D. Anthony]

IRONFIST
Punching in the air....you should not let your elbow lock out. Let it go to full extension without locking out your elbows.
Punching against a bag or other equipment, i.e. the Mook Jong, let the elbows lock out simply because the apparatus has an equal and opposing force acting against yours, and will not allow your elbow to lock out. Hope this helps.

[urban tea]

-previous post
--------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tsui seung Tin and his group, ah cheung, ah dak, kenneth chung, leung sheung, lok yiu all punched that way with the elbow locked.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Are you so sure of this? Is it a Fact?
------------------------------

Yes its a fact. I went to one of Tsui Seung Tin's monthly meetings and they talked about Bil Tse. Tsui and many of his students/school brothers locked their elbows.

Whipping hand, *****es is dumb + as5es. I said, "I"m sure the HK group of sifus are not dumb + as5es.

Anyways, I'll let it end on this.
Those names i listed above are good in wc, in my opinoin. Therefore, I listen.

If you don't like it then don't do it. If you trust them then do it.

[whippinghand]

Trust yourself first, because the body never lies.

Let others deceive themselves.

[urban tea]

Hey whipping hand.

Okay let me reword it. A meet some sifus that can kick a lot of ass and whent hey teach they show their students the path that they went down...in order to get as good as them.

I want to get as godo as them, so i will listen to what they teach me.

Yes if your body hurts, then don't do it. Also you're probably doing it wrong.
BUt if sh\*t is weird, and it stil hurts then don't do it.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by urban tea
I want to get as good as them, so i will listen to what they teach me.
Then you will ONLY be as good as them.

"Martial arts creates leaders, not followers."

[urban tea]

whipping hand,

Can you at least meet me halfway on anything?

How about you try saying...
" I disagree with the locking of the elbows . I personally would never do it. However , if the HK group does it - there may be some value in it that I may not know of."

I hope you really don't act or talk in person like the way you do online because if you do...then man you got issues. DEEP issues .

I mean..yeah I like to be anal sometimes too because its' fun, blunt and straight to the point but. hah you just plain suck.

But then again this is the internet so no one can really tell. I hope you don't act like this on real life, for your sake.


By the way, if I willl ONLY be as good as Leung Sheung or Tsui Seung Tin - I'd be very proud of my accomplishment and I can say no one on this board let alone the United States is as good as them. (maybe one exception hehe)...nope not even you mr whipping hand oh great one.

"Don't step up cause you lookin kinda lost/
You claim two ghetto roads that don't even cross/
Incase you didn't know, I'm a true artist/
Droppin gems like on the run from police..."

[urban tea]

whipping hand

yes you are correct.

That is right you are correct. All questions should be answered by you, you are correct. What you say matters more than 40 year wc sifus, yes you are corrrect.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by urban tea
What you say matters more than 40 year wc sifus, yes you are corrrect. You have yet to see my elbows...

[Rolling_Hand]

Whippinghand,
--You have yet to see my elbows.

* see * ?????
hahaha....<<<<< feel... >>>>>

[vingtsunstudent]

is this some sort of f'n joke.
which ever one of you 2 moderators or dictators deleted all those posts from yesterday you really want to WAKE UP & TAKE A GOOD, HARD LONG LOOK AT YOURSELF.
there was nothing offensive in any of that, you have no sense of humour & are a little nazi dill.
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

hey whippy
mabye you should use some moisturiser on them elbows,
then maybe nobody would find them so ugly & be scarred to see them.
vts

[wingchunalex]

i agree with most people here, lock your elbow out, don't hyperextend though. it helps if you think about puching out and the energy going out, not your elbow going up. just be careful and relax.

[ATENG]

Originally posted by urban tea
whipping hand,

Can you at least meet me halfway on anything?



urban tea, you must be new here. :D

[red_fists]

I spoke to one of my old Insturctors.

He reckons a lot of elbow and shoulder injuries come from punching empty air full force, as there is nothing there to control the punch(Bag) and no counter force.

According to him never use full force or full speed when doing empty air punches.

[yuanfen]

I spoke to one of my old Insturctors.

He reckons a lot of elbow and shoulder injuries come from punching empty air full force, as there is nothing there to control the punch(Bag) and no counter force.

According to him never use full force or full speed when doing empty air punches.
----------------------------------------------------------
I beg to differ. If you first learn to walk you can run, When you
learn how to run you can do full speed and power when you want to. There is a time for evrything
yuanfen
www.azwingchun.com

[red_fists]

Hi Yuanfen.

I beg to differ. If you first learn to walk you can run, When you learn how to run you can do full speed and power when you want to.

Can I ask you to tell that do a professional athlete, who has to start by walking jogging and other things in order to correct bad habits from everyday life. And needs constant corrections to his running style.

Same in MA, the movement needs to be correct and power applied properly.
How can you learn to do that when you have no resistance to measure feedback.

I have seen many Guys doing that type of training and they were whiplashing those punches, might have been lack of visualization/intent.

If you train the "empty air" punches to feel muscle and joint alignement I agree, but than you don't feel those using full force & full speed.
But to each his own.

[yuanfen]

For sure!

[IronFist]

So, if I'm doing air punches I CAN do them full force, as long as I don't completely extend my elbow, right? So, if a straight elbow is 180 degrees (think back to high school geometry here), when doing air punches I should start to recoil my punch at around 175-178 degrees, right?

thanks for helping me out guys. I've been busy with classes recently so I haven't posted much, but I do read all your replies.

IronFist

[fmann]

I think the underlying theme of the punch so far (I may be wrong) is: (1) Don't "lock" the elbow and (2) don't actively pull the punch back.

Re: (1). "locking" is considered the active tightening of the muscles to hyperextend the arm. This would be bad for your elbow and is different from full extension w/o "locking".

Re: (2). The whipping motion and relaxation of the punch should automatically return the punch to position. You shouldn't have to actually pull the punch back, otherwise you are decelerating before impact and therefore reducing the efficacy of the hit.

I dunno if that sums up anything or what, but that's what I'm gleaning from all this.

Regarding punching and kicking in the air: Punching and kicking in the air at full force can damage the ligaments and tendons in the elbows and knees. This is because the foot or hand is travelling faster than the elbow or knee and torques the joint in question. Locking the joint may compound the problem, as that can tighten and extend the muscles a little further (which already feel stress from the motions), and can lead to "Tae Bo" syndrome -- hamstring pulls, tendonitis, etc.. :D

[NPMantis]

Hey bud, always stop a couple of inches short of lock out for 2 reasons:

1. general wear and tear on your elbows - only of my friends has done WC for about a year and her elbows joints are giving her grief now, her instructor told her to lock out.

2. a straight arm = a broken arm in a combat situation. In mantis we use arm breaking techniques as do many martial arts some of which are made much easier when the arm is straight.

[fmann]

Though if you have to consciously stop yourself short when you are doing a Wing Chun punch, then you are not being relaxed enough. The way I've learned the punch is not to actively pull it back, but rely on natural stretch reflex and whipping motion of the punch: basically, your arm will pull itself back without you having to decelerate it and reduce your "power curve" (i.e., the part of the punch that hits with nearly full to full power).

[yuanfen]

FwIW- The elbow controls and travels on the line of the punch-
so when you extend your punch out to its limit... all the joints are STRETCHED not LOCKED. After the enrgy is released the elbow naturally(gravity) sinks providing room for the other hand.
Different principle from NPMantis. The air punching is a developmental tool. Actual application will be different because
there will be an obstruction- the other fellas body- and you release your enrgy into that body. Its really simple. Lord Bruce did not invent the truism- buta punch is justa punch when you learn to punch. If you hurt or strain your elbow- you are doing it wrong!!

[urban tea]

moderators delte evrythign i say,

but whipping hand,

yes okay.

=]

[Rolling_Hand]

Urban Tea,
--moderators delte evrythign i say

The art of Wing Chun is like water flows gently, yet over time it has the power to conquer the highest mountain. Like Chi Sau... if you could make it here, you can make it everywhere... no kidding!!!
Seek the midpoint between extremes - Give yourself time to take in a new perspective.

[mun hung]

Agree entirely with yuanfen on this matter. If you're hurting your elbow there is definitely something wrong in the way that you are punching.