Basic Kung-fu questions... help plz!

[Hurdoc]

Hello everyone, I had asked for some info about Bak Mei kung fu in an earlier post, and thanks for all the replies. I gather that it is an "external" style, meaning aggressive?

The few questions I had were:

1) I have familiarity with Japanese arts, and they make sense to me as in Judo=mostly throws/locks/chokes, Karate=mostly strikes and kicks, etc. I am confused about the divisions in Kung fu. The basic thing is that the "north kicks and the south punches". But is there really a big difference between all the styles? is there some sort of more definite classification?

2) Are there any throws/locks/chokes in Kung fu? I have been taking Judo for a few months and it appears to be pretty practical from a close-up fighting point of view. But something inside me is drawing me to Kung fu... strange.... but I like the throws, etc

3) What are Pak Mei's strengths vs weaknesses? I have a school close to my home that seems good. I attended a few classes but obviously that is not enought to understand the details of an entire martial art.

4) Is there any particular style that lends itself to more practical self-defense? I think any master of any art would fare as well as can be expected, but are some styles more street savvy than others?

Thanks for the help, my friends. I don't have very strong knees, although I am only 32, so I'm looking for something that is upper body related. So those would be southern styles?

Thanks for your patience, I'm rambling. I'll leave it at that.

[anton]

External = Utilising external power in strikes and techniques.
Internal = Usually involves cultivation of Qi (internal or intrinsic energy) for both health and to aid ones fighting skills.

IMHO it is hard to make accurate generalisations about Kung Fu styles. Kung Fu styles differ greatly (much more so I would say than Karate styles). I think the conception that Kung Fu is one martial art with several sub-divisions is a bit misleading, I consider each style/system as an independant martial art.

If you're after a style to work out your upper-body try Choy Lay Fut - The style has a lot of both long and short range attacks and focuses mainly on punches (there are a lot of kicking techniques in the system but I would say punches are its main focus). If you start training at a good CLF school you will probably feel some pain in your pecs/lats the day after training - a sure sign that these muscles are being worked out.

[red_fists]

1) I have familiarity with Japanese arts, and they make sense to me as in Judo=mostly throws/locks/chokes, Karate=mostly strikes and kicks, etc. I am confused about the divisions in Kung fu. The basic thing is that the "north kicks and the south punches". But is there really a big difference between all the styles? is there some sort of more definite classification?
Not really a lot of styles were influenced by other styles.


2) Are there any throws/locks/chokes in Kung fu? I have been taking Judo for a few months and it appears to be pretty practical from a close-up fighting point of view. But something inside me is drawing me to Kung fu... strange.... but I like the throws, etc

Yes, they are in a lot of systems.


4) Is there any particular style that lends itself to more practical self-defense? I think any master of any art would fare as well as can be expected, but are some styles more street savvy than others?

This might open a can of worms. :)


Thanks for the help, my friends. I don't have very strong knees, although I am only 32, so I'm looking for something that is upper body related. So those would be southern styles?

May I suggest a style that will build your knees. Most CMA need a good "root" or stance in order to be effective.

[sanchezero]

Japan small, China BIIIIG.

Chinese arts are wildly diverse. If the body can be put into a position theres somebody who's designed a technique/style around it. Of course, many of these are a little too wacky to have survived.

Almost all (maybe all?) kungfu styles have some grappling.

There are some styles that are considered to be stronger than others, but maybe thats just a marketing thing ;>

Ving Tsun (wing chun), Hung gar, Choy Lay Fut, a coupla Mantis styles, and Pakua come to mind. Obviously, ving tsun is superior, but those other guys are OK too LOL (tongue in cheek, man).

There were thousands of kungfu styles at one time. Theres gotta be hundreds out there now. And dozens of those are worth studying. Just have at, at see what blows your hair back. If, after a coupla years, you keep gettin' yer a$$ whipped you can always switch...

[S.Teebas]

ving tsun is superior,

You are correct. :D :D

[anton]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


You are correct. :D :D

baaah!!! :D

No-one defeats the Buk Sing gwoon*

*to be read in a dubbed-Hong-Kong-movie-type-american voice

[No_Know]

Kung-Fu styles and systems, are labled by region, character, or Family~.

Shuai Chiao~ is big on throws. Theoretically, a great many kung-fus have throws. I can accept Shuai Chiao as a Martial art with a place in China, but I don't count it as a Kung-Fu. It's origins are in sport or training for fighting. But not as fighting-ish/defense-ish/battle-ish. Yet was a part of those things. Chin Na--joint-manipulation(early level) is a training thing by itself. It's a Kung-Fu only in that one can become skilled in it.

Strengths and weaknesses. Only strengths should be mentioned. To discuss weaknesses opens saying something is bad. The Kung-Fu people traditionally don't talk bad about each other. Bak Mei is perhaps known for Strong hits, to specific places, to do significant damage.

Northern Kicks and Southern fists. Southern stylists have been laughed at for having no legs.~ The quantity of kicks might be fewer than Northern in general, yet the stances of the South make for formidible legs. Except for Wing Chun(if it's Southern), take something other than Southern . The stance requirements are such that it might not be initially beneficial to your, not so strong knees.

[JasBourne]

Hurdoc, good questions, always stay curious. :)

The term "kung fu" is used in the west as a catch-all for any chinese martial art. In reality, the term 'kungfu' means "skill attained through hard work over time". So you could say that your proficiency in judo and karate is a measure of your kung fu ;)

The difference between 'northern' and 'southern' styles of CMA (Chinese Martial Arts) most likely evolved out of simple differences in terrain and lifestyle. Northern China has a lot more open spaces and folks rode horses to get around; southern China has a lot of marshy ground, rivers, and crowded city/towns. "Northern" styles tend to have sweeping movements and high kicks, perfect for unseating horsemen or taking out nasty running dudes with spears. "Southern" styles tend to emphasize more of low stances, close-range punching and short kicks, perfect for duking it out on a boat, in a rice paddy, or in a crowded alley.

Yes there are excellent throws and locks in CMA. Chin Na is all about locks , Shuai Chiao about throws. We study both in my kwoon to add to our arsenal.

For excellent combat self-defense most suited to today's urban world, I recommend Wing Chun. It's fast, it's extremely effective, and you can kick pretty good bootay in the space of a couple of years with it.

[Chinwoo-er]

the way I see it, I really think that putting "kung fu" on the same scale of classifying karate and judo is downgrading CMA. the term "kung fu" ( used in a martial arts sense ) is a generalised term for all the martial arts in China. So it should rank on the level of "Budo" which (should) be a generalised term for all martial arts in Japan. And then karate, Judo, Kendo, etc is on the level of Wing Chun, mantis, eagle claw, etc.

There is alot of ways to classify CMA. The ones mainly used is North/south and Internal/external as well as region. All of which a legitimate and correct.

here is one which seem not to be mentioned as often

as far as internal ( Within China ) classification goes. CMA could be basically placed on three different levels.

Pai/Pa, Moon/Men, and Gar/Jia

Pai is the school mainly. as far as I consider it, it is a brand name. such as Shaolin, Wudan, etc.

Men is the individual branch of those schools. Such as Wing Chun, Shantung mantis, Choi Lay fut, Lohan, Mizong, Baji, Taiji etc.

Gar or family is the particular style, Like Chan, Yang, Wu styles or tai Chi, half a dozen kinds of Wing Chun ( you would not believe what i see nowadays ), 7* mantis,

Anything more separete is just franchises.

interestingly enough, Hung gar should be planed in the "men" level.

I know, this classification system is............ little know. And it does seem to have some problems. But when you look into it long enough, shift a few things up and down, it can be worked out.

Chinwoo-er

[Mr. Nemo]

1) I have familiarity with Japanese arts, and they make sense to me as in Judo=mostly throws/locks/chokes, Karate=mostly strikes and kicks, etc. I am confused about the divisions in Kung fu. The basic thing is that the "north kicks and the south punches". But is there really a big difference between all the styles? is there some sort of more definite classification?

"North kicks and the south punches" is really not true. I train in a northern style (bajiquan) and we use kicks sparingly, and never above the waist. As for differences between the styles, there's about a zillion different styles and they're all different. There is no more definite classification. Northern styles often have a different "flavor" than southern ones, but it's hard to describe.

2) Are there any throws/locks/chokes in Kung fu? I have been taking Judo for a few months and it appears to be pretty practical from a close-up fighting point of view. But something inside me is drawing me to Kung fu... strange.... but I like the throws, etc

Yes, there are throws, locks, and chokes in Kung fu. Again, it depends on the style.

3) What are Pak Mei's strengths vs weaknesses? I have a school close to my home that seems good. I attended a few classes but obviously that is not enought to understand the details of an entire martial art.

I don't know anything about pak mei, sorry.

4) Is there any particular style that lends itself to more practical self-defense? I think any master of any art would fare as well as can be expected, but are some styles more street savvy than others?

It depends more on the teacher than the style. Look for schools that do a lot of "live" training (sparring, especially, make sure its continuous and not point sparring), and you'll find the schools that will give you more realistic fighting skills.

"Thanks for the help, my friends. I don't have very strong knees, although I am only 32, so I'm looking for something that is upper body related. So those would be southern styles?"

Pretty much all kung fu styles will put you through stance training. If you do it right, it should strengthen your knees, actually. Kung fu tends to be "whole body related" rather than upper/lower body related.

[DelicateSound]

I'm in such a dilemma at times. I've always wanted to learn realistic and effective combat systems, but recently I find I have an urge to fly through the air - "taking out nasty running dudes with spears." :D

IMHO: It is rare to be able to find "the" style overnight. What you really need to do is to visit every school in your area, and to look at the skill of the pracftitioners there. The style is important, but so is the teacher - and many skills are transferable from art to art. After trying everything, you'll work out what you like, and then can spend the next 40 years dedicating your life to it :D

Just my philosophy. But yes, Wing Chun kicks butt. :)

[Ky-Fi]

If you're new to Chinese martial arts, I wouldn't get too concerned with distinctions like "internal" and "external"---you'll find just about as many definitions of those as you will find practitioners of CMA. I think in general, Chinese styles are less delineated in skills than the Japanese styles----for instance, I don't think you'd find many Chinese styles that focus only on one weapon like Kendo or Kyudo.

I would advise looking to see if a school has a complete curriculum in the style they're teaching. Virtually every style of Chinese martial arts should have the following:

-stance training
-form training
-breathing/qigong/meditation
-2-person drills
-punching, kicking, throwing, Joint locking (chin na) applications
-some type of body conditioning, cardiovascular, bag work, etc.
-2-man choreographed fighting forms
-free sparring
-weapons forms and sparring (I believe almost every style trains staff, broadsword, spear and straight sword---many styles train a lot of additional weapons)
-wude--ethics and morality (maybe not specific training, but they should be subtly pervading the teaching, IMO.---this is not just "morality" or "right and wrong", but it's also things like humility, perseverance, respect of others' knowledge----things that directly affect the individual's training)

If you can find a teacher that is knowledgeable in all these areas, and able to teach them well, you're on the right track. Also, as others have mentioned it can be tough to generalize about styles, because even within a specific style, different teachers have different emphases and specialties, based on their personal preferences and skills---some might focus more on chin na, some might be great at sword, etc..