Ride the tiger overturn the chariot(alternate app)

[Tainan Mantis]

I'm visiting Mantis108 this week.
Last month on another thread I talked about the alternate app for move #13 in 7* bung bu.

This application is not related to this form, but when I asked my teacher why it has this name he showed me an overturn the body technique.

The app shown in WHF book is also how we do it in our 2 man form.

Note:
After Robert parries the elbow strike I follow the motion of his push and stick my head and right arm under his right arm. My right hand grabs a hunk of flesh as shown in the pic.

For the move to work he must be pushed off balance by me before I can uproot him.

Fan Che Shr (http://216.126.109.138/mantis/images/FanCheShr.htm)

On a related note, he has posted picks of taking me down on his TJPM forum.

[Stacey]

Tainan..was that you?

Anyway, the guy on the left looks great. The guy on the right looks more like a beginner. Still, cool app. I havent seen that exact one, I have seen others that follow the same into of the passed off elbow.

You should write some articles for a magazine. Your stuff is good enough and you know more than a lot of people that grace the magazines.

[Tainan Mantis]

I am Tainan Mantis's wife. I am delighted to see these pictures of him, since he has been away to visit Mantis 108 for a week, and my son and I both miss him.
Look great, Hunny. Keep up the good work. And post more pics!

[Stacey]

umm... Hi Mrs. Mantis, do you practice as well? Are you two originally Mei Gua ren? Just curious. If you are Wy gua ren, then how did you find yourselves in Taipei?

Just curious

[Tainan Mantis]

Stacey,
Not all real masters look like the masters in the movies (some do though). If you judge someone by their looks or stature you may miss a chance to train with someone of high skill and knowledge(you probably already know that, right?).

It is better to judge a teacher by his students(his students are impressive).
One of his students is a bouncer and was showing me the techniques he had used in the bar to deal with the tough guys.

On Mantis108 forum he is doing the takedown on me from TJPM ground fighting.

I am mei guo ren, Mrs M is Taiwan ren. I came to Tainan to study PM with Shr Zheng Zhong in 1989.

Before that I studied Wah Lum and several sport MA for 7 years.

[Stacey]

that guy in the picture is your Master? Ok, sorry, I figured your Master would be tossing you around. No offense intended.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I just have 2 questions that If you would could you please answer.

1. When performing that throw are you sweeping the foundation leg as well?

2. How is (tiao) used? I always have understood that tiao means single leg lift.
Thanks

[Tainan Mantis]

Stacey,
The man in the pic with me is my friend Mantis108. I am visiting him in Canada. My Shr fu, Shr Zhengzhong, is in Taiwan

ED,
I didn,t catch his leg when I did the throw. But If you can catch his leg he will have a nastier .

I am doing this throw as he is running away and so it is good to be able to do the throw without a leg catch.

I assume you probably learned a similar one in shuai jiao?

Tiao: Every school has different meanings. By itself it merely means to lift.

Actually I am doing go-lo-tsai, but that wouldn't be clear and easy to understand in pictures. So the tiao becomes the go of the go-lo grab.

[flem]

tainan

no offense intended, but how does that move counter the attack- i mean what keeps you from going down, the flesh grab? if so, i do not think it takes into consideration adrenaline, or the fact that his weight would/should make it nearly impossible to lift him. also, though i do not know the tech, my initial response would be to go down with him, on top of his back.

[Jack Squat]

Tainan-

What's the URL for mantis108's website?

Thanks!

Jack

[EARTH DRAGON]

You are correct, the throw resmbles that of Ma Bou Ti but the tiao that I was asking about also means lift but sometimes paired with leg or arm. As in the throw bung Tiao which is to lock the arm in a crossing pattern (bung) and then step into a crossing leg while you lift thier leg (tiao)

Thanks for the clarification........

[Tainan Mantis]

Flem,
I'm afraid I can't do justice to your question on a written forum.
Maybe it isn't clear that I am the attacker while Robert is merely defending and not attacking.
The technique is not one I made up and I have seen this type of technique in other styles that specialize in throws and takedowns.

Most Northern styles have some techniques where the opponent is picked up and body slammed.
True, it takes a lot of strength to do that, but a lot of throws seem illogical until you have done them for a long time.

On a related note, at Wang Lang's temple in Lao Shan sits his "rock lock". According to my teacher it is very heavy(he went there and lifted it) and realized that WL was a very strong man.

Jack,
I'll let Mantis108 answer that as I don't know.

[flem]

tainan

isn't the throw in response to him going to your body? if so, i was saying at real speed his momentom might/should leave most of your weight on your rear leg- a difficult position in which to lift from.

[Tainan Mantis]

Flem,
1.he comes to me with a punch
2. I collide into him with my block and elbow strike
3.He avoids the elbow strike by turning his body and parrying
4. I follow the momentum I have generated and also the energy of his push to pass under his right arm.

Note:
I can only perform this technique if he has a specified response to my elbow strike. Therefore there are several techniques I can perform after the elbow strike besides the one in the picture.

You are correct in saying that my application could go wrong. This is when he performs a-
1.escape
2.reversal

When he learns the escape and reversal we start the drill for this technique.

This thread is not meant to teach a technique(not possible in pics), only to show an alternate app for fan che of 7* beng bu

[Young Mantis]

Tainan,

Nice job with the pics. I guess you really do have a lot of time on your hands. :)

Although your pics are very clear in stepping through that particular application, I fail to see how it resembles the "kua fu fan che" move from Bung Bo. You do say that your application is an alternate application and not the one taught in the form, but then you also then continue to refer to it as being from Bung Bo.

I do believe that there are many techniques that can share the same name, in this case, very clearly you have shown an application for "kua fu fan che" which is very different from the one taught in Bung Bo. If you were to call it an alternate application of "kua fu fan che", I would not have any comments. But when you refer to it as an alternate app of "kua fu fan che" from #13 of Bung Bo, then I have to make comments.

I am a traditionalist. I believe strongly in maintaining the integrity of the forms as they were passed down by each generation. I do this to respect my sifu and my ancestors of the style. I am also all for experimentation of techniques and applications because without this, the system would become stagnant. But I would never derive a new variation application for a movement taught in a form, and then claim it to be from that said form.

This of course is just my own personal attitude towards the forms.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

Young Mantis,
You are correct in saying this app that I showed has nothing to do with the form. So it is confusing to others when I try to get my point across.

The technique WHF calls Kua hu fan che is not the original name of move #13 in the form beng bu. By his own admission the original name of that move is "beng bu" and from this move is the form named.

[PaulLin]

I donot think this throwing has anything to do with ShauiChiao. ShauiChiao's throwing has much more angle to it. Besides, what after bung is not tiao, it will never fit the application. Bung is follow by bieh or de-he. Go check with other ShauiChiao masters. And do you know which styles is the ShauiChiao you are talking about? Different style will have some movements called differently. I know ShauiChiao so I can answer all your questions well. And I don't think this is a ShauiChiao forum. You should ask a ShauiChiao speciallist for your question.

[Stacey]

I agree Duh Huh would work here. Personally I would do Qua Twei ti. I learned it a few months ago.

Bonus points to anyone who can tell me what Mantis Master brought qua twei ti to mantis and how that story goes. I learned it when I learned the throw, but its kinda fuzzy now. Any help?

[EARTH DRAGON]

Paul lin, not reall ysure who you were directing that question to but bung tiao is one of the forty throws that is in our system and it works very well. Not sure about the actual application that tainan was referring too but his throw looked simular in the still photo.
If you do know about shuai chiao I would love to know what lineage was added to the system of 8 step praying mantis. It seems as though thier are 2 contradicting stories.

Stacy, feng hua yi added chinese fast wrestling. Is this who you were reffering too?

[PaulLin]

EarthDragon:

Tiao can't go right after bung because the hip position for tiao is not available after bung. The bung usually followed by bieh (pien). It is called bung-fang-bieh. It can be big (da bieh) or small (shiao bieh). The different between bieh and tiao is that one has you leg hook up back out to the side of body and the other one goes through the middle of his legs. Shyun never tell you which one is which? Does he know? I think he don't know the different of them. You are probably doing bieh not tiao.

Feng Huan Yi was not in the Shuai Chiao lineage at all. Then who taught Feng ShuaiChiao?

Chinese fast wrestling is only a nick name, does Shyun ever told you the proper name? Does he know?

Actully there are at lest 3 better(as faster and more efficient) throws for that elbow position according to Shuai Chiao, can you see them? Can you name them?

[Stacey]

your kind of embittered arent you. "Does Shyun know?" I have an idea how you can find out exactly what he knows. Go fight him and videotape it if you have the balls. You can make degrading comments all day long, you can say what you want, but if you are truly an 8 step master and know so much more than Master Sun, then why don't you step up to the plate? In San Francisco, he beat up crack heads that would take swings at him. I'm sure he would show you the same courtesy.

I can just see Master Chiang Hua Long, or Master Wei typing on an internet forum making stabbing comments on their betters. Oh wait, no I can't. These were men of action, what kind of a man are you?

[PaulLin]

Stacey,
If you are able to set the contest up, I will be glad to show you I am much better than Shyun.

I wondered did you ever seen beat up the guy yourself or you heard it form some one else?

Add more to bung and tiao. If one forced to do tiao after bung, he can be countered by bao form his opponent, that is if his opponent has the skill and reflex of ShuaiChiao. The correct requirements in moves such as hip position are very important in the counter movement. And you will not be able to find any counter movements in book since they are made for advanced students, not introductory.

Also, reading and watching pictures is not same as watching the real person, also not same as experiencing by oneself, especailly without the vital requirements that will make the move tougher to counter. That is one of the way you can tell the copier form the real students.

[Stacey]

I live in New Jersey, but heres the setup.

1. Go to his school
2. Set up video camera
3. Fight

For now, your all talk, lets see what your made of.

[yu shan]

Tainan Mantis
On a positive note, hope you can spend some time with our group visiting from America. Tell me what to expect from Master Shr`s workouts? Is it anything like Pong Lai`s?
Xie Xie to you and 108, PaulLin and others, we are paying attention.

[Tainan Mantis]

A student leads the class, probably John while the old guys and Shrfu sit at the tea table drinking kung fu medicine tea. It has no actual tea, just medicine.

Then Shr fu will probably pull a rabbit out of a hat. It is likely that he will teach something that no one has ever seen before, at least not John.

As far as coming to my classes that is ok with me. John may try to work it into the busy schedule. I teach 11 classes a week.

[EARTH DRAGON]

You have me thinking about this bung thing... If I am correct when you preform bung to lock your opponents elbow while stepping into crossing leg stance, thus having the correct hip position. Then you twist while lifting the right leg leg keeping the elbow locked, thus causing them to arch while falling at a 360 degree angle.
This is what I have been taught by shyun , if works very well for me becuse of my height.

PS I would also like to know where our shuai chiao lineage came from????????? I have included the 40 throws to make sure I have been taught the names properly could you please correct if they are wrong thanks.......
1. GO 21. CHUAN DANG
2. SWAI 22. SO BEI
3. KO 23. SO HUH
4. BOW 24. SAN BA BIE
5. CHING 25. ZA BA BIE
6. SHAW 26. JIA LIANG TI
7. SWA 27. CHEN DI TI
8 CHEIDA 28. SAN BA DENG
9. LABIE 29. XIA BA DENG
10. BUNG TIAO 30. FEN SOU KANG
11. DING KUAI 31. LUO SOU BIE
12. DIAO LOU 32. ZUA WAI CHUAI
13. AN CHI 33. HUN TUI KANG
14. TWAI DUNG 34. TUAN DANG KOW
15. YA TIAO 35. MA BOU TI
16. TAN HING 36. KAU TUI DI
17. JIAN TUI 37. XUEN BU TI
18. DA HUH 38. QUI TUI DA HUH
19. CHAN TUI 39. LOW
20. LIKANG 40. FAN TI

[draco]

I notice Tainan Mantis is in a very low stance and Mantis 108 is not. One may have an advantage over the other.

I am a small compact person. For myself the throw may turn to a roll over, then maybe the finishing technique.

[PaulLin]

ED
In bung, the most impotant is the inter-hand (Jin shou or Zhaw Ba). It is very importan of how you get to the elbow lock up postion(example--pien tou bung). The most easy/often is form your opponet's own attack moves that give you the lock perfectly. The "T" steps (Wou Bu) is the hip postion point, that is where you must position hip correctly.

Tip: better not to think of lefting the leg, think of bring the leg back to hips, it will help your balance.

In the bung you described, not much mistake I can tell form your words. The most hip postion problem I was mentioning is that you have said "tiao" after the "bung"

You need to know that Tiao need the hip to be under your opponent's and at the bung situation, your hip can't get lower than your opponent's. so you can follow up bung with tiao, it can be countered with bao.

on the other hand, Deh Heh don't need that under position and Bieh goes out side and can be lowered into position. That is why they can be done after bung (usually the single arm-holding bung).

My father is the head disciple of GM Chang. Just to tell you that the so called "fast wrestling" is not it's full proper name, the true proper name has to do of the name of GM Chang's home city. There are 3 main styles at his time and all are good in different movements and opened with different moves on the contest(Huang Huwa Jia Tze). The main Master in that style GM Chang has was Chang Feng Yen. GM Chang himself went through more than 50 masters to learn his ShuaiChiao. He ditched school all the time to nagging on different shuaichiao masters until he got their arts, which caused later on his writing ablilities.

My father has a ShuaiChiao KF bro. David Lin. He has vedio tapes out there some where and they are very good tapes if you want to get a good look at shuai chiao. Dr. Weng has shuaichiao tapes too, but Dr. Weng like to mix Judo stuff in there(he has also stole the ShuaiChaio teaching materials form the police school in Taipei and sold them for his own $$) and was disliked by other disciples of GM Chang. But Dr. Weng's tapes are also good to watch.

Other than the throwing, ShuaiChiao has its own set of foundation movements. If you have a chance to look at them, they are very different requirement's in comparison to 8 step. The foundation in 8 step can only support less than 20% of the throwing in ShuaiChiao. That is why it will be almost out of mantis if you mix ShuaiChiao into the 8 step foundation.

Shuai Chiao has 13 postures (13 TaiBao)
16 foundation movements
min. of 6 different equipment trainings (I have done only 4 of them)

The 16 foundation movements are:

1 diagonal strick (Shei Da)
2 ring-elbow (huan jou)
3 elbow lock (Sow jou)
4 diao lou (peck-up and kidnap down)
5 chien jin ti (forward kick)
6 chien jin ho ti (forward and back kick)
7 shia ba ho zhoan (lower grib throw)
8 shia ba ho ti (lower grib back kick)
9 zhou yaio bung (left and right breaking-as the stretch limit)
10 la (pull)
11 fein shou (separate hands)
12 lou shou (kidnap hands)
13 shieng ba ho ti (upper grib back kick)
14 kao eai xiou dong (high and low fast move)
15 yan di bao (stationary hug)
16 tri (over the back throw)

Deh heh, tiao, jain tui, kao shien ti, chei, chuan dong kao, da/shiao bieh tze, etc.....are not in foundation, they are advanced movements.

out of your list, many are not recognizable. I need to look at the Chinese charactor to see them.
1 Go, does it means (hook?) a move with front low sweep on the near side leg of your opponent?

2 swai (swing?) grib in the back bell and throw foreward.

3 Ko (dig in?) A very hand small move. With a fingger at the back of knee joint. It can be follow up by Deh Heh(in fact, that combination was one of GM Chang's favorite).

4 bow (hug?) that is what I called bao.

5 ching (down?) on 2 or 1 of opponent's wrist and pull down forward. This need to have specail equipment train to make it efficient.

6 shaw (peel?) cross foot and arm cissor throw. Very difficult to do it correct.

7 swa (washing?) grib on back collor of opponent and pull down forward.

8 cheida (diagonal strick?) palm strick diagonal in the inner shoulder, if weight shifted, add leg sweep, if not, follow up by ma bor.

9 labei (pull and trip?) sond like 2 move combo.

10 bung tiao (break and hook?) sound like 2 move combo also.

will talk about next time, but let me know if my (?) fits what are you mean to ask.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Thank you for such a informed response. Yes for bung tiao to be performed correctly you must have lower center than your opponent i.e (your ming men lower than his dan tien) then tiao is to lift your leg while you turn.

Wasnt it feng hua yi who introduced shuai chiao into 8 step? at least thats what shyun has told us. And that master wei introduced Wu Tai Chi Chuan from Wu Chen yo's son Wu Jian Quan
Was 8 steps shuai chiao from GM chang?

In your 16 I can reconize some for they are the same that are found in comnbination in the 40 I have listed but most I have not heard of.

Yes all of your translations are correct. Is this true shaui chaio? I would hope for I have spent lots of time learning and teaching them as such. And while some feel akward most of them flow into other applications. Thank you for answering my questions so quickly. I have many more but will not bother you too much. But I have spent the last 12 years learning and representing shyun and I would like to know that the time was not wasted .......... I hope you understand.

[PaulLin]

Draco,

In Shuai, there are many different movements that are in advantage of different body types. You should find the kind of movements that are advantage in your type. For example, GM Chang's oldest brother are very short person and when he throw some one, his opponent has no room to counter nor roll away. The opponent jammed the head into the ground with no chance of roll out(game over). I think if your throwing is really good and with your low body weight type, you can be a very head-ache-giving opponent for others.

ED,

In ShuaiChiao, there is a saying: "Da ban tze shan chian liao, shiao ban tze sai niuo mao". It means big-move throwing are about 3600, and small-move throwing is as much as ox-hair on an ox.

In Shuai Chiao, it is not all throwing are learned free of order, there are some throwing are supposed to be learned before one learned the other. So I don't know how many thows of your 40 have you learned and in what order. Of course that the foundation movements must be the very first.

In tiao, leg are not lift, it swings up ward. GM Chang run on the hill side to practice this move. Bung and Tiao are 2 seprate moves and cannot be blend together.

GM Feng don't have ShuaiChiao. GM Wei don't have ShuaiChiao. Although there are more than 15 different kinds of throwing in 8 steps, there are not same as in ShuaiChiao. The foundation in 8 step has not support 80% of real ShuaiChiao movements needs.
GM Wei, many times visited GM Chang back in Taipei. He tried to get the art of ShuaiChaio form GM Chang and exchange it with his 8 steps, but GM Chang said "come to my house only talk about daily life, no martial arts." And GM Chang even hide away his painting of ShuaiChiao moves that was hung on the wall in the living room. The only ShuaiChiao moves that GM Wei has seen is form my father, when they were walking/practicing in the park daily.

GM Wei did learned for Wu style TaiChi, that part is very correct. Only that GM Wei never said that the special knowledge in Wu that passed only to him.

Under my father, we did many times combined ShuaiChiao with 8 step mantis. We have practiced the foundation separtely. For example, the BungChuan in 8 step can turn into MaBurTi( I think that is the #35 on your list) when the opponent moved the head to your right side of your right fist to avoid the strike.

Actually, all strike moves in 8 step has potential to turn into throw. But one must practice both foundation separately inorder to do them correct.

The 16 movements, 13 postures, and equipment train should be practiced before all other throws.

From what you have told me of what you known, it seems that you didn't totally wasted your time learning form Shyun. Of course, I have to see it too for further analyz. And yet, I would heavily suspect of many bad habbits/false requirements are still in your practicing. For example, how wide is your horse stance? what requirements on the shape of the legs? alinement of the knees? Where are your body weight at?

In Shuai Chiao, there will be many names that you have not heard of, and yet, Shyun can also make up names that I have never heard of too. I will try to find info. on the ShuaiChiao tapes out there and if you are interested to watch them.

You know, I think a libary, consisted of a well round collection in tapes and books sould be avialible in most martial art schools, so that the truth is easy to find and improvements are more faster. And yet, masters shouldn't hide secreat books form student and book should open to students for translation.

[Stacey]

I see, so the throw Beng Tiao is fake and never works?

Your Dad was not only the senior student of Master Wei and Master Chang, but Master Chang liked your dad so much that he showed him stuff, he never would show his close friend and fellow Martial arts Master who already knew Shuai Chiao via Feng Huan Yi?

Then Lin Chin Fu taught Grandmaster Wei?

Grandmaster Shyun then invented "fake" throws you have never seen or heard of for the sake of corrupting the pure system that your learned.

Grandmaster Wei was also a Master of Old Yang Style. Master Sun teaches this complete with apps that work and open up the tai chi classics. Yet according to what I've read on this forum, he actually learned from his dad's old book. If this is true, then Master Sun is the single greatest martial arts mind in history.

He watched classes, but didn't participate, yet invented throws, that work and integrated it seamlessly into 8 step. He aquired high level tai chi and tai chi fighting from a 28 posture book, and had students of students that were great fighters regardless of body type or inborn talent.

This is like that kid in India with a third grade math book that figured out Doctoral level math equations. James Sun is either a genious....or he is very educated.

Besides Master Chang and Master Wei, who else was Lin Chin Fu a number one disciple of? I saw pictures of him and he had huge legs. I'm sure everyone wanted him to carry on the true legacy of their systems.

[EARTH DRAGON]

actually I know all 40 in that order from 1 - 40 But my question is if feng hua yi never incorporated shuai chiao into 8 step where did it come from? and how do we have 40 throws It is said that feng hua yi added shaui chiao and chin na fa from eagle claw for we have all eagle claws joint locks. PS here is a photo of me and the worded explaination of bung tiao please click on image below and look.
O stands for opponent and D for defender

10. BUNG TIAO
O. PUNCHES RIGHT
D. RIGHT MANTIS , LEFT SUN PUNCH
O. LEFT HIGH BLOCK
D. GRAB BLOCK X-LEG PULL ARM ACROSS CHEST LOCK AND THROW

[PaulLin]

Stacey,

You will have to see the real GMs in action then you can tell the differences. I have seen them and I am sure if you are here I will be able to show you most of them. (at lest I know that I will not short of volunteer if you are around)

You should read more carefully, the name of bung does not go with tiao, these 2 words are not link to eachother in the term of Shuai Chiao. And puls, you should go out there and see what others are doing. Don't set in the buttom of well. I will suggest you to research more on ShuaiChiao and then you can compare the others with Shyun's.

My father have never taught GM Wei ShuaiChiao since my father only showing it to GM Wei and GM Wei has not practicing any ShuaiChiao.

Must I repeated it again, that GM Feng is not in the lineage of ShuaiChiao and he in Shandong at the time has no exposure to this art? Go find out who taught GM Feng ShuaiChiao then. Next time I will try to come up with ShuaiChiao Tape's info and you can buy one set for your self, then you will know it is not difficult to make up all those things like Shyun did.

And there, you call the 28 posture Yang Style the old style? Go read some history, 28 posture are WuShu invention of the late 80's. To the real Tai Chi practicers, 28 postures are merely a joke. It is only use for showing since it is so sort. It is the 108 long form that is the real Yang Style for parcticer. And yet, there are planty of 28 posture step by step books in Chinese all over in the Chinese book stores.

And yet, to the people who know NOTHING about Shuai, it is very easy to make any moves work since they don't know how to counter them. That is no surprise to any insiders. You should take Shyun's moves to any real ShuaiChiao masters out there and see what they will say about it.

There is a long list of who my father has been learn form. But only head disciple of GM Wei and GM Chang. Others include:
White Crane--Tsai Ten Tu
Kun Lun Meditation--Liu Pei Tzung
Shiao Lin Chin Na--Han Ching Tang
BaGua/ Xing Yi--Wong Shu Ching
Yang style Tai Chi--Nan Huai Chin, and Chi Ching Chih(with T. T. Liang as partner)

That is about what I have off the top of my head.

I forgot to tell you, my leg is bigger than my father's. I am havier then my father. But my father has lower gravity and longer arm. If you ever know, there are 4 types of Chinese Martial Art's favorite body types in words: Tong, Ten, Kuan, Ru. The fist type is Tong, which like the character--long arm and low gravity (almost like an ape). That is the 1st favorit type since the long reach, less target exposed, and better balance.

If you want to know Shyun is educated or not, go find out his school records. They are not very plesent to look at. But I must say that he has so much passion and dreams in Chinese Martial Art but still, he is using it to benefit himself, preying on others, and make other loyal to him only, not loyal to the truth.

[PaulLin]

ED,

Your movements is not bung at all, it seems. I will come up with ShuaiChiao tape info and if you want to look at it.

Your leg was hook up on the out side, in Shuai Chiao it is considered as a Bieh.

The croosed arm lock is taken form one of the Tri move (over the back throw). On your same hand lock, you can also thorw your opponent over the back and shoulder while with his elbow locked.

Pluse, don't looked at your opponent at the time of twist, it will decrease your thowing angle.

I didn't saw the inter hand on this, can't make any common on that.

Eagle claw is not my field, I won't make any common on that too. There are a master in Taiwan, Taipei before, called Chun Bao Lain, Chun (clock) Bao (treature) Lain (lotus). He can stood on his head in his 70's, and he is a very good master in eagle claw. My father saw with his own eyes that he can take off a piece of plam tree skin by on stike of his claw. He came to GM Wei's teaching ground few times but never disturbe GM Wei. My father didn't learn form him. he has a son that is also very good at it. I can't remembered his name now.

Any ways, if GM Wei has eagle claw lineage, he will put it in his book. But no such lineage in there. I have knowledge on Shiao Lin Chin Na, it will be different form eagle claw. So I won't make any common on that.

[Stacey]

I'm keeping an open mind with all of this. I have seen Master Sun, I have seen the Master Wei videos. I havent seen Paul Lin or his father move, I really don't know who they are or what they are about. I would like to see them in action. I would like to see what their applications look like, their tai chi, their tui na, their groundmantis, their students.

I am confident in him though. He is an ideological man, a man of quit courage and dignity. If he is who he says he is, the world will soon know it.

I know he will make a name for himself by doing something and not by defaming Master Sun. He comes from good lineage. I wouldn't be supprised if he was the second 8 Step fighter in the UFC. He wants to promote 8 Step and if the UFC/NHB made a name for brazillian jujitsu, then Paul Lin Shifu who is better than Master Sun will become a champion and make 8 step a household word. I saw on here that one of Master Sun's students students won in NHB competition. Surely a true Sifu Like Paul Lin will do far better.

[Stacey]

Paul Shifu, Can you tell me what the other body types are, the pros and cons etc?

I am not even good in Shyun style 8 step, but I have beaten mixed martial artists. I'm sure you can do far better and show the world things they havent seen before.

[PaulLin]

Staycey,
What are UFC and NHB?

Do you have any info on them? I would like to take a look at them.

Plus, I have no intension of defaming any one. What I have said is the best in my knowledge and heard form my father, my father's kungfu brothers, and his friends form Taiwan. If Shyun didn't called my father's kungfu brothers to threathen them with law sues, and George didn't come to tell Shyun's stories, I guess I will still busy with my own researching in OC rather than spend my time here.

I wondered have you ever seen Shyun face to face? I also wondered have any one here ever fight with Shyun or seen Shyun actually fight?

[Stacey]

This is what I found so far.

tgrappler@aol.com is a fight promoter

www.gladiatorchallenge.com


I'll keep looking. Its called NHB stands for no holds barred fighting.

UFC is ultimate fighting. There are many, it is getting popular in the US and Japan.

www.pridefc.com

http://www.fighttraining.com/

[PaulLin]

Thanx Staycey, I will take a look. I will do some research on them.

[Stacey]

Kage Kombat has an event coming up in Los Angeles on April 4 and then again in another
two months.
310/787-0447.

[PaulLin]

Currently I have so much things on hand, not enough time. I still need to find time translate the book. I will keep on doing research on these, I am sure I can find some videos in store. I always research as much as I can before I make a decition on involving with any thing, you should do the same too.

By the way, who in Shyun's 8 step system was in the compatation? What ranking? When is he in it?

Also, about that bungtiao, the name is wrong. If it is correctly done as it planned to be (the set up is not correct), it should be called YeBei BiehTze, as a variation of Da Bieh Tze. Go consult any ShuaiChiao Artists and see if they agree with me.

[EARTH DRAGON]

The fighter in shyun's 8 step was joel sutton. He is my kung fu brother and freind, we trained together in buffalo and in S.F. he is very tough and somewhat crazy.. He also was trained by Cheung Le.

He won his alternate match in UFC #6 in Buffalo and went on to UFC# 7 in S.C

He went on to fight in the world pancrase in japan but did not do as well over there......

[Tainan Mantis]

I'll see if I can dig them up.

[Tainan Mantis]

Sorry Wolfen,
Couldn't find the pics.
Anyway, Li Kunshan didn't teach this form in Taiwan, but I later found that his bro's in China did keep the pu (manuscript) and they just call this move wai liang chuei which means outer beam.