External training for Internal arts?

[Mr. Nemo]

I put off reading the John Painter thread for the longest time - anytime I see a thread with more than three pages, I get a sense of dread.

But anyway, I finally read it. Now, I don't know anything about John Painter or his lineage or his bagua or any of that, so I don't want to get into any of that.

But what I noticed on that thread was that one of the criticisms levelled at John Painter concerned his training methods - specifically, his training methods that could be called "external", such as weighted vest training.

I hadn't run into this attitude towards external training in the internal arts before. My sifu discusses many types of training that could be called "external" - the weighted vest is one example, the ironwood staff and holding weights while doing the eight mother palms are some others.

Do any other bagua stylists, or practicioners of any internal style, use these types of external training, or if not, do you have a particular aversion to them for some reason?

[boy_analog]

The school I'm at does mostly Shanxi-style Xingyi. My teacher takes a pretty extreme view on these things: he's dead against external training.

Other people will chime in and say things like, "No, you have to strike a balance", or "External work is OK so long as you've made the right internal connections" and so on. All this may be true for their own style. Different styles produce different effects. Even different lineages within a style can produce different effects.

As always, take your teacher's advice on all such matters. That's what you're paying him for.

[red_fists]

Mr. Nemo.

Are we talking external or "weight" training.

I am under the impression that Weapons/Tool training falls under weight or strength training in IMA.

But always open for correction.

[Crimson Phoenix]

My bagua sifu is totally against external methods when training bagua...however, he'll tell you Cheng Ting Hua would walk the circle by holding two buckets full of water with his arms extended and would show me the palms with 20 pounds weights to his wrists...
I had the stupidity to tell him "isn't it external?" and he looked at me with this unique smile and told me "I'm not supporting the weights with my muscles, I'm supporting them with tendons and body structure...that's the difference with the same external training".

[count]

Good post and it will bring you good karma. In fact, there is a big 'ol tree with your name on it just waiting for you in the park right now ;)

Red_Fists,


I am under the impression that Weapons/Tool training falls under weight or strength training in IMA.
That's a small part of it, not to mention the alignment required to wield a 10 foot ironwood pole or a 6 ft., 100 lb. bagua dao. But I always thought it was unique the way bagua trains with the weapons and other training equipment like heavy bags and kicking bags, sand bags or weights. Always the opposite of what you would think if you train only traditional methods.

One thing that sifu always says is "if you train the external you drain from the internal". You have to balance your training. Give equal attention to endurance and muscle. But technically, muscles are inside too. What about getting hit or hitting? Now that's external.

I am curious why Crimson Phoenix's and Boy_Analog's teachers are so against external methods in training? IME, teachers who avoid the brutal, hard part are trying not to scare away the students who are meak.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Well, I guess he's against external methods in internal training because it implies training many points that are just the opposite of what internal advocates, like contracting muscles instead of relaxing them. It reminds me of that Smith's book in which he was scolded by some bagua teacher who saw him practicing heavy canvas bag throws and told him that it was "totally contrary to what he taught, and worse, could be detrimental to his internal practice"...
I don't know...my sifu is very skilled in external and was member of the Shanghai wushu team...so I guess he has his reasons for making such a distinction...and when he tells me of Chu Gui Ting, one of his teachers, he once said "his bagua was totally relaxed, it made his arms look like whips, eventhough he could generate an unbelievable strenght...his shoulders were always totally relaxed...and when he was practicing his xingyi, it was continuously rolling, unstoppable, light but inexorable, not a tension in his shoulders, no muscular strenght in his moves...he looked like the wheels of a train". He kept on insisting on the fact that Chu always stayed totally relaxed, yet was capable of generating an enormous power...
I don't know, really...my sifu always makes a distinction between moving in the internal fashion and the external one...he says anyone can learn the moves of bagua and practice them the external way, by contracting the muscles, losing the connections etc...but real bagua is a totally different way of moving...

[miscjinx]

""isn't it external?" and he looked at me with this unique smile and told me "I'm not supporting the weights with my muscles, I'm supporting them with tendons and body structure...that's the difference with the same external training"."

&

"my sifu always makes a distinction between moving in the internal fashion and the external one...he says anyone can learn the moves of bagua and practice them the external way, by contracting the muscles, losing the connections etc...but real bagua is a totally different way of moving..."


EXACTLY! The same goes for all the other internal arts I know (tai chi and ki aikido) - I think it is the same for all internal arts in general. The people I learned the most from and my own experience are in perfect harmony with this teacher. Thanks Crimson Phoenix!

My primary style is taiji and this is exactly my view. The second comment is very applicable in tai chi as well.

[count]

Well, I think many more mis-understandings of bagua came out of Mr. Smiths writings. Depends on how he was throwing the bags that may have made it detrimental. Throwing bags around can be excellent internal strengthening for the tendons and for alignment.

It's difficult for many to understand what is meant by relaxation. When I want to communicate the type of relaxation in internal arts to the novice, I simply tell them to stretch out as much as they can and let go. Relax doesn't mean limp.

"Wheels on a train" is an interesting power comparison. Maybe not so much for bagua, but I see what your teacher is getting at. The opposing action of the arm that drives the wheels etc. Very hard and ridged yet also smooth, balanced and efficient. Hmmm, I think I'll get out my sword today. :)

Cheng Ting Hua was right. I'll bet money he threw some bags around in his day. ;)

[RAF]

I have had some experience with the weighted training in the system by Liu Yun Qiao. Light body training requires the use of weighted vest, weighted shin guards, and rings. The weighted vest is not really a typical vest but a wrap around.weighted vest. I saw the one my teacher used when he was taught this under the close eye of Liu Yun Qiao but cannot speak for anyone else within or outside of the system. If you use the weighted vest, then the ankles and wrists should be weighted and balanced.

We also used light half bricks in guen, zuan, sheng, guo exercises (which we refer to as one thousand snakes). With this exercise you also can employ a weighted sandbag sewn like a figuer 8. The middle drapes over your thumb and foreging and can also be in walking the circles and any palm changes. Unfortunately someone made off with my teachers bag many years ago and we have not been able to find replacements. A little off from this, you can use the bricks also to walk on both 8 in a circle or 4 in a square.

Personally, I know this training is a step by step process taking many years. Weighted training wasn't even discussed for my first 7 or so years and you still train without weights during this time. Sometimes we also use heavy weapons. We have a pari of fairly heay deerhorn knives which are twice as large and heavy as the regulars.

Here is an interesting article from Jarek's site on training in bagua:

http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/SpiritSt/xinyi/index.html



JS: What about long spear (Da Qiang)?

MR.MA: Yes, I practiced with long spear. It's length is one Zhang and two Chi (about 4 meters). I learnt Bagua Long Spear exercises from Li Ziming. The goal is to build the power and learn correct body method (Shenfa) - opening the joints and "pulling out" the power (dynamically stretching the tendons). This method has to be used to improve one's skill. People who do not practice martial arts have rather stiff joints which limit their range of movements. By long spear practice one can open the joints, increase their flexibility and hence improve agility of movements

JS: What are the features of Bagua spear?

MR.MA: In Bagua we have Bagua Long Spear and Short Spear. The latter is also called "Snake with Two Heads" (Shuang Tou She) as it has spearheads on both ends. Its main feature is using long weapon on short distance (Chang Qiang Duan Yong) and it differs from typical spear methods of "Lan Na Zha". In Bagua you redirect opponent's spear with one end of your weapon and strike him with the other end. Once you can apply the principle of "using long weapon on short distance" than you can effectively use a short stick even against a broadsword. This can be easily seen in techniques of another typical Bagua weapon - Seven Star Stick (Qi Xing Gan) - which is mainly used for point striking. While using long weapon one has to be able to use so-called "flexible grasp" (Huo Ba) which allows for changing the grasp of the weapon without loosing contact with it.

There seems to be so much varation in the training methods within and among bagua school that it probably bets to follow exactly what you teacher recommends. Something it takes along term relationship before many of the so-called secrets are revealed. Its unfortunate but understandable in today's commercial world.


I lost my original post so these may seem like its our of order. Sorry.

[Fu-Pow]

Here's an excerpt from an article that might clear things up a bit......


The concept of harmony is very important in Taijiquan because it is relaxed and yet extended in order to produce the effect of springiness. It is not possible to stretch out without relaxing the muscles, relaxing without extension is not possible to produce the kind of tension that is required in the state of springiness. This is a process to relax the muscles so that the joints and tendons might be pulled to be loosened. This is why Taijiquan is a dynamic self stretching exercise that has impact on the tendon and bone tissues. This is quite the opposite to other forms of exercise that building up muscles concentrically by shortening muscle fibers.

So "weight training" might be applicable but only if you were using tendon power and not tightening your muscles. The biggest hang up is, of course, in the shoulder muscles that are used so much in daily life that it is hard to full relax them.

"Weight training" in the internal arts seems to me to be very high level. You don't see teachers teaching new students the Guan Do.

[shaolinboxer]

In our aikido training, we use large wooden oars to practice sword cuts. This could be considered "external", as you are lifting a weighted object up and down. However, as you begin to do more and more repetitions you begin to understand you must relax into the cuts inorder to prevent fatigue, and move the weight around your center.

In this way, the movement transitions from external to internal.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I myself don’t lift or do anything that I feel would cause me to maintain tension in my body.

What I read of many of these types of exercises is the lack of intent of the exercise it self. For example some one mentioned handling a weighted ball as some do in TC circles.
Lets say the ball weighs 10lb. Some one might think wow 10lb. The guy who can do it with 20 must be better. That seems to be the mind set of many people. More power, more speed, more endurance.

How about using something weighing 4oz and believing it to weigh 10lb. would the effect be the same?

The process of really relaxing the body and learning how to maintain dynamic balance the work of a life time, please be careful and ask what, how and why or you may spend much time starting, and starting again. As a leaf did in his early years. ;)

I think all training is good, but the intent must be known.. With out this I believe many things that I read about people doing will lead them in the opposite direction as far as TC is concerned.

luck in training :)

[Mr. Nemo]

"I had the stupidity to tell him "isn't it external?" and he looked at me with this unique smile and told me "I'm not supporting the weights with my muscles, I'm supporting them with tendons and body structure...that's the difference with the same external training"

"So "weight training" might be applicable but only if you were using tendon power and not tightening your muscles."

I hear things like this a lot, but I don't understand them at all. If he's holding buckets out at arms length, how is it possible that he's not using his muscles? Even if he locked his arms out above him, he would still be using his shoulder muscles. How is it possible to lift objects without tensing your muscles to some degree?

In order to move (throw) a large, heavy object like a person, a certain amount of strength is required. Now, you can make them easier to throw by somehow offbalancing them and breaking their structure, but a certain amount of physical strength is required - yielding may also help, as you're able to manipulate their momentum to help you throw them, but still....unless you're fighting a completely uncoordinated, off balance person you're going to need a certain amount of physical, muscular strength to get them off their feet. More physical, "external" strength will help you - I don't see how it will hurt you.

What many of you seem to be saying is that weight training will somehow disrupt your internal mechanics - I don't understand how.

[Fu-Pow]

I hear things like this a lot, but I don't understand them at all. If he's holding buckets out at arms length, how is it possible that he's not using his muscles? Even if he locked his arms out above him, he would still be using his shoulder muscles. How is it possible to lift objects without tensing your muscles to some degree?

Excellent question. I don't know how but my teacher can generate a lot of force without using any muscle tension. He can hold is arm out from his body and if you feel his shoulder it is completely relaxed. Its bizarre and I haven't quite figured out how it works. It has something to do with spiral movement.



unless you're fighting a completely uncoordinated, off balance person you're going to need a certain amount of physical, muscular strength to get them off their feet. More physical, "external" strength will help you - I don't see how it will hurt you.

Conventional wisdom would say your right, but internal arts work differently. Imagine that your joints are pullies and levers and there is a rope that connects them through your body. You can't generate tremendous forces this way without ever using the localized contraction of muscles.

This is why the spiral movement is so important to internal arts. It keeps the "rope" taut.

To use the pulleys and levers analogy again if the rope is slack you can't move anything if the rope is too tight in one place the whole system gets stuck.

This is my current visualization of how things work.

[red_fists]

Mr Nemo.

Do give you an example.

Imagine somebody standing in "single whip" or a bow stance.

Now when you touch his calf muscles you would expect them to be taut, but on a high level internal MA they will be loose and relaxed.

[Sam Wiley]

While your shoulder muscles have to tense some to hold your arms up and support those weights, it is your back muscles that hold most of the weight if you relax. (I am imagining the Falcon Spreads Wings posture in Bagua here, as in the fifth palm change in Chiang's Bagua form.) The muscles in the back and the waist are the main ones that power strikes, and training the muscles like this makes them stronger. The tone of the arms and chest also get better using methods like this. In addition, you can get a good cardiovascular workout doing methods like this, as all your movements have some sort of resistance against them. Carrying bricks in your palms also helps improve grip strength.

On the other hand, practicing with weights in your hands or whatever, while it tones you and strengthens you to some degree, does not give the same benefits as more isolated strength training exercises. For instance, if you want to strengthen the muscles that power strikes, bench presses would be a better alternative. This is only common sense, as the motion itself imitates a basic striking motion. Push ups might be a less effective alternative to this, though you can add weight to your back to increase resistance. Also, you can get cardio workouts through other means, without weights.

A certain amount of strength is required for any martial art, but one of the goals of the internal arts is to learn ways that do not require a lot of effort. There are some throws, for instance, that require minimum effort if you enter and setup correctly for them, and they are just as effective and potentially devastating as ones that require substantially more strength, except they require less effort to put them in effect.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings, Fellow Travellers..
I wonder, at what point did the Ancients seperate the whole being into seperate parts?.. One of my favorite teachers (not MA) points out that at some point we needed to seperate to understand.. once understood, we reunite the parts into an aware conscious whole.. It seems that in order to grasp the magnificence, most of us need to know how it works.. some fortunate few simply accept the unity of body, mind and spirit negating the seperation/reunion process.. Those people train differently than most, we see it in the calm perseverence.. in the obviously dual nature of their training, they sense no difference between internal/external.. they navigate conflict and politics effortlessly, with a fluid grace.. When they do express "power" its a flash, there and gone again.. They already know they are on the right path, now they simply refine the journey... They are not bothered by differences in choreography, but.. quality of movement, balance and "expression" are matters of sincere study.. I envy the gifted few.. i only sense what they already know.. But, my sense tells me that often we focus too narrowly, seperate too much.. We are whole, interactive beings.. training with the intent to improve the whole being, Body, Mind and Spirit is favored over seperation or neglect.. If highly refined Chi is expected to express itself fully, then an equally refined body must be available...

anyhow.. that's my current understanding of things.. but, i dont "understand" everything i "know"...

:) be well..

[bamboo_ leaf]

In my own experience they are very different roads. One is not better. I think it gets down to a matter of what calls you.

I traveled one road for quite some time before arriving at my present views. Even now I am in the process of losing my form.

I think inner work really is a different way of looking and doing things, at lest as I understand the idea of TC. Unless you start and have good examples to follow I would think it would be really hard to see the difference let alone accept it.

when they say relax
when they say don't use force
when they say don't lean

these 3 simple things are not so simple :)

I would say that even among many TC people they still use force. Mistaking this for the needle in the cotton.

[miscjinx]

"...you're going to need a certain amount of physical, muscular strength to get them off their feet. "

Wrong! That is thinking/working externally, not internally.

Internal arts unify and use the whole body, so let's just use the momentum component alone. You don't need any amount of physical, muscular strength to get them off their feet when you are basically moving and dropping your entire body weight on them. If I go for a push, externally I can use muscles (mostly arm muscles and leg muscles), but if I relax and just propel my entire body forward and keep my body connected & structurely sound so all that weight (200+ pounds) drives into a person, they will be pushed.

In one instance, you used your muscles and had to work harder to push the person, in the second you just relaxed and stepped forward - no muscular strength beyond what it took to step forward.

A throw, if done correctly (higher levels) with balance, timing, etc, etc, etc done, done 'internally' will be so effortlessly done that it could feel almost magical. I find that when I at my best (for the moment), that the push, strike, etc is done with little effort on my part...it sometimes feels weaker than when done another way, in this way this stuff is counter intuitive.

[Ky-Fi]

Originally posted by Sam Wiley


A certain amount of strength is required for any martial art, but one of the goals of the internal arts is to learn ways that do not require a lot of effort.

That's the deal in a nutshell, IMO.

The softer the art (Taiji being one of the softest), the less necessity for muscular strength, which is why you see very little muscle-building exercises in traditional Taiji training. BUT, you are always using SOME muscular strength. I can give a very good example of truly relaxing all your muscles and not using any muscular strength: fainting. In order to really progress towards using less and less muscular strength in a martial art, you first have to be very sensitive to how much you actually are using.

Another point I would make is that the Chinese training in traditional Taiji in China in the 1800s didn't sit at a desk all day, typing on a computer, and then drive home to watch TV on the couch. They were getting quite a bit of muscle-building and cardiovascualr work just in their day-to-day lives than many of us get now.

As I've been taught, muscle building or other kinds of "hard qigong" training isn't necessarily counter-productive to internal arts, but the softer the art the less important it is.

[RAF]

Sam's point is right on target. I might simply substitute the word efficiency (technically get out the most for the least amount input).

I personally think that is what many of the so-called internal styles recognized and added to their training. Relaxed muscular movement and flexibility permits a more efficient transfer of power from the legs and torso to the upper extremes such as the shoulder, elbow, fist/palm.

I like the following quote from the new issue of the taiji magazine:

"External refersto the back, arm and leg position and general body shape. Internal refers to intention, qi, or chi (energy), and shen (spirit). Kungfu, he said also depends on the right method of training. Without thecorrecttraining, you could practice for years and achieve only a little or no kungfu." Fu Sheng Yuan, son of the late Yang lineage holder, Fu Zhongwen.

Without strength and development in the lower body, especially the legs (which are related kidney strength in TCM), you have nothing to transfer to the upper body, hence, no power.

Granted there are other jings to develop which require none or limited muscular usage but without the basic frame or structure they are useless.

Almost every founding master of the so-called internal arts started and was quite adept in a system we call external.

[blacktaoist]

The bottom line is a martial artist must have balance of Yin and Yang.(coordination of the external and internal) Most so- Called internal practitioners don't have any kind of balance in their training methods, this is why they can't fight and their techniques not skillful.

All traditional old school martial artists train the coordination of external physical muscular strength(Li) and internal mental strength(Yi)and energy(Qi).

Today many so called internal practitioners just train the body movements(shen Fa) which qoverns the actions of their internal method techniques. And most of their movements are stiff, but they love to talk about not using force, when their own body is movements is hard as hell.

Many internal practitioners that talk about all soft methods. Most of the time many of them can't utilize the so called internal soft method in a real fight or just sparring with another martial artists.

In BaguaZhang I have met and train with a few high level practitioners , and even they utilize some kind of physical force on my ass. Should I call it chi power? No I think not! It was just good old physical force utilize on my ass from a internal martial art practitioner that have more experience then myself, in utilizing his own force (physical action) to grasp the advantageous opportunity in a fight.

Now there may be some internal practitioners that may can use soft methods in a fight. But I know, I myself have met only a few. I have met 100's of Tai Chi practitioners and most of them had nothing no kind of real fighting skills, most of them would try to fight using push hands, trying to adhere and neutralize my attacks with soft techniques, and then counterstrike me with their so called no force method. What a joke, I would just beat them down.

The only internal person That I met that did some thing That I can't explain was Sifu William C. C. Chen. A few years ago I was practicing free style push hands with sifu william, as we was pushing I was about to try to lock him, he just put one palm on my chest and all I remember was my ass went flying in to a wall. And he didn't use any kind of force known to man. (physical force)

Now I met and practice with many traditional yang tai chi practitioners, not one of them that I met did any thing that I couldn't explain in words how they did it. Most of them utilize some kind of physical force, even in their push hand practice.

But the bottom line is there are only a few so called high level no force internal practitioners, and you can count them on one human hand. If any body up here on kungfu on line say they can fight using no physical force what so ever. "THEY ARE FULL OF $HIT" AND NEED TO GET REAL WITH THEMSELF AND THE MARTIAL ARTS WORLD AROUND THEM.

PEACE.

PRACTICE FOR REAL , AND YOU WILL KNOW OTHERS.

[miscjinx]

I don't understand how internal became synonymous with soft, no force, etc, etc, etc.

A complete internal martial art would have hard and soft, but both are generated internally (center, whole integrated body) as opposed to externally (local muscle).

When I trained in Ki Aikido, it was very soft because we didn't want to harm our opponents and we used a lot of finesse so little or no force was required. However, in tai chi (both old Yang and Chen) that I have studied there are elements of extreme power in fajings. However, the power is generated differently than say a karate person (a typical externalist - particularly under black black level) would move or generate the power.

Internal is not equivalent to soft or no force. If you are thrown up off the ground and into a wall...this could be done by an externalist or an internalists - but how they did this feat (how the power was generate) is completely different.

[RAF]

If you have studied traditional Chen taiji, then you know that shaking the pole is both internal and external. I don't know how you separate the two. One can be more developed in your training than the other but at some point in time you must bring them into balance.

I still think talking about internal and external as separate is going down the wrong path.

Qi gong is a good example. using intent, mind breathing seems to make it internal but I have yet to meet any person who practices qi gong excllusively have any kind of wushu skill.

We just don't separate the training and I am pretty sure the Chen Fake did not make the differentiation of internal and external but held them as complementary training phases of the same system.

[blacktaoist]

RAF-One can be more developed in your training than the other but at some point in time you must bring them into balance.

BT) good reply. A person just can't have all yin in their practice with out yang. They never reach a high level in martial arts. Like I said in my first reply a martial artist must have balance.

[miscjinx]

The other problem is terminology...I am talking about internal strength as a way to move to generate power.

"Qi gong is a good example. using intent, mind breathing seems to make it internal...."

That may be internal, but for what I am describing, this is not enough.

Picking up a cup...how you move (whether internalist or externalist) is quite different.

[RAF]

Miscjinx

Terminology is a problem and I bet that adds to the confusion. I mean, I can understand that you can pick a big pole and go through the exercises primarily using strength. There is another way to use the pole that will help develop the jings but still requires you to pick it up with muscle, shake it etc.

Blackdaoist

Your right about balance but it also assumes that people know how to train "internal". What I know at this stage is that internal is not some big mystical state---they may yet come but there is sure a helluva a lot of physical/muscular strength along the paty. Now I am just entering into the basic training of our bagua system and I can tell you for certain that you'll not reach some internal state without many, many days of mudsliding step along with a bunch of other aux. exercises including weighted training. From your previous posts, I am sure you know this.

Miscjinx

From what I have been exposed to in reading and others I have met, I really don't grasp the basic neigong training of Yang's taiji unless they use much of the Chen's system.

Your basic point about terminology is right, its a problem.