Injury that won't go away.

[TigerJaw]

About nine months ago I injured myself stretching.

I'd been having trouble gaining flexability of my hamstrings. Despite stretching every day for a year, I still couldn't get into a front split and I thought I ought to be able to so my Sifu showed me the stretch that he used.

The stretch he showed me was a progresion from that stretch we've all seen where you one foot up on something hip height and reach for your foot. He said, do it against a wall, with something under the raised foot and move the rear foot back a little. Do it at various heights for the front foot and progress slowly.

So, being the impetatient young fool that i am, I pulled something first time I tried it. It felt like it was at the top of my hamstring or perhaps the bottom of my gluets, ie where the crease of my buttock is when standing normally.

Since then, I've been carefully stretching it out four times a day. I've been to a physio who told me that I'd partially rupured my hamstring insertion. She sait that the problem has a underlying cause of poor muslce recruitment when I walk. That is to say I overwork my hamstrings which shortens them and increases tension. So she prescribes exercises to strenght Glueteous medius and guteious maximus to change my muscle recruitment and I've been trying to walk with my feet pointing forward.
I've also had accupuncture and ultrasound.

Still it hasn't healed. Although not as bad as it was, I can feel it when I put my weigh on that leg and tense my buttock muscles. It also comes on if I do any isometric hip extension (that's a contradiction but you know what I mean).

I can't train properly because I can't do back-kicks, inner or outer kicks, chopping kicks or many other movements that casue pain.

If anybody has any ideas, suggestions or just advice, I'd like to hear your thoughts. I'm gettting quite desperate and am pretty much willing to try anything.

TigerJaw (toothless)

[Robinf]

Actually, it sounds like a posture problem. This was my problem. I changed my posture to be stand up straight rather than with the improper posture I had. I also stretch my hip flexors now. When I work out, I make sure that my abs aid in stabilizing my spine, and that my glutes are actually doing their job, which they weren't because my hip flexors were tight (always "pulling"). My hamstrings have since stopped being painful.

I don't know if this is your problem. It's impossible to tell without seeing your posture.

Robin

[TigerJaw]

Thanks for the Reply, I appreciate it,

That's exactly what my physio said and she prescribed corrective excercises for it. I've been doing them for months now and the tests show that they've had the correct effect and my posture and muscle recruitment is much better but still, the injury won't heal.

Did you do any excercises for better posture or did you just concentrate on standing properly?

[Paul]

hamstring injuries can take a long time to heal. If you are stretching a torn muscle I don't think that is a good thing, in fact that is probably why it hasn't healed yet.

[BSH]

In traditional chinese Kung Fu, Dit Da was used to help in these situations. There are many different types of Dit Da including a Dit Da Jow specifically used for stretching.

Ask your Sifu about it. It has worked wonders for me.

[Robinf]

Now, I'm talking about me personally. As I worked on my posture, I also did strength training. I developed a typical routine of legs twice a week, using weights that made it difficult for the last two or three reps (ten reps, three sets). I also made sure I stretched a little in between each set (both the muscles I was working and the muscles on the opposite side--i.e. when I stretched my hamstring, I also did a stretch for my hip flexor) and did a full stretching routine at the end.

But this is me. I found that building the muscle up properly along with all the other muscles in my legs, butt, back, helped heal what I had broken down--but it takes time, patience and absolutely proper form. It could be that a deep tissue massage might help you (I foam roll).

I'm glad you're making improvements in your posture. That's a hard thing to do. Keep it up.

Is a physio a physical therapist? If not, you might want to check with a PT about what exercises you can do to help--if that's what you need. Again, it's hard to tell that over the internet.

Robin

[fa_jing]

You may want to look into some Yoga, it good for low-impact streching, relaxing your mind to relax the muscles. You will also have to build up strength in that area, slowly, of course.
It may be painful to do so, but you should probably take a few months off from your Kung Fu class. This is my experience with injuries: you can't be in denial of the injury. Other wise they take three times as long to heal.
-FJ

[crazybuddha]

Having injured myself by similar over-zealous "conditioning", I have a comment. You have a chronic problem which is due to tissue damage. You have to ask yourself how chronic you want it to be. An injury under stress will not heal. You can't stretch, weight train, rub or eat it out. It's a tear at some level in the tissue and it needs continuous proximity for the tissue to rebuild. In short, don't twist or bring the tendon/muscle to full extension, and especially not fast.

In my view, unless the tendons and ligaments are conditioned first, which takes quite a while, muscle training is asking for trouble, and has to be approached conservatively. Stretch too far or too fast and the muscle will contract, which is not only counter-productive, but increases the risk of damage.

[TigerJaw]

Thanks for the advice everybody.

On the subject of strectching the injured muscle. Those who have expressed concern are correct. Agressive stretches of the muscle is bad but the stretches I'm doing are prescribed by my physiotherapist. They're remedial stretches, done to the point known as P1 where you just start to feel the injury. Apparently, this helps to align the tissue so that they can heal.

I stopped going to Kung Fu completely for six months but recently, on the advice of my physio, have started goin once a week but am not doing any kicks. She says that just doing some exercises and encouraging blood flow should help me heal.

I went to a few yoga classes and in fact it wasn't that useful in terms of directly treating the injury. I'm sure it's a great form of excercise but I couldn't do a lot of it because it would put too much strain on my injury and the stuff I could do was pretty much what my physio had shown me.

Thanks Robinf for that insight. As you say, everybody's different and apparently, one of my problems is that the major muscle groups in my legs are over-developed. I've been told to stay out of the gym and only use isometrics to build up the slow twitch fibres in those little muscles like the Glueteus minimus that people tend to neglect.

Thanks for the advice about Dit Da Jow. I'll look into that.

Oh and Crazybuddha, NOW you tell me. :D You're generally correct but for poeple like me who've developed muscle recruitment or postural problems, those have to be addressed before the injury will heal.

[NPMantis]

OK, It's not TCM, but I use Ibuprofen whenever I have muscular pains. I am from UK and use Ibuleve Gel (or if you can;t get that try and Ibuprofen external gel), if you rub it on effected area every evening it can help clear up muscular injuries really fast. I sprained my ankle a few years ago and it healed so much faster when using it. It also helps general muscle pains from training. I would highly recommend you try it, you will notice a difference the first time you use it. After I first started weight training it cleared up all injuries after one application.

[ElPietro]

Right now I'm going through physio for my own torn hamstring. The tear is in the muscle belly not the point of insertion but one thing, I don't think anyone mentioned it, is that when you tear that muscle it will rebuild but there will be scar tissue. The scar tissue is much less elastic than the muscle tissue and will be a limiting factor. You must stretch it out and warm it up prior to your training but it still won't be as elastic as your regular muscle tissue.

Ibuprofen is an anti-inflammatory. It is alright to use if you cannot for some reason ice the injury. Basically, during the inflammation stage your body is removing all the damaged/unnecessary tissue from the area of injury in preperation for the rebuilding process. This stage is important but can go on for a long time which isn't good. I wouldn't say Ibuprofen necessarily speeds recovery too well...although it gets rid of some of the pain. But pain isn't a good indicator of how your injury is healing. I thought that myself and then started lifting decent weight again on my hamstring, without pain. Thinking I was almost 100% again I played some football and re-tore it on the first sprint of the game. I couldn't walk properly for a week and now have been inactive for about 3 weeks. So take care of your injuries first.

[TigerJaw]

Originally posted by ElPietro
Right now I'm going through physio for my own torn hamstring. The tear is in the muscle belly not the point of insertion but one thing, I don't think anyone mentioned it, is that when you tear that muscle it will rebuild but there will be scar tissue. The scar tissue is much less elastic than the muscle tissue and will be a limiting factor. You must stretch it out and warm it up prior to your training but it still won't be as elastic as your regular muscle tissue.

Ibuprofen is an anti-inflammatory. It is alright to use if you cannot for some reason ice the injury. Basically, during the inflammation stage your body is removing all the damaged/unnecessary tissue from the area of injury in preperation for the rebuilding process. This stage is important but can go on for a long time which isn't good. I wouldn't say Ibuprofen necessarily speeds recovery too well...although it gets rid of some of the pain. But pain isn't a good indicator of how your injury is healing. I thought that myself and then started lifting decent weight again on my hamstring, without pain. Thinking I was almost 100% again I played some football and re-tore it on the first sprint of the game. I couldn't walk properly for a week and now have been inactive for about 3 weeks. So take care of your injuries first.

I've heard similar things about Ibuprofen, in fact NSAIDs in general. Apparently, they reduce pain but the recovered tissue can be weaker if you use them. The pain isn't a problem normally, I only feel it if I try and use my leg. I have tried 'Deep-heat', it temporarily increases the range of motion of the hip and even completely removes the symptoms. Does anybody know if that's a good thing?

[TigerJaw]

Thank you guohuen and I'm sorry I didn't acknowledge your post earlier. I've had a bit of a search for this Ruta Grava stuff and for Dit Da Jow. It seems that Ruta Grava is a little harder to come by but the list of symptoms it's prescribed for seem to be closer to my needs from the brief web searching I've done. it's a good suggestion and certainly worth a try.

I think that there's a homeopathy shop in Oxford. I'll go along this week-end and see if they've got this stuff.

I've never used homeopathy before. Is there anyting I should be careful about? I'm having acupuncture on the injury, will the homeopathy and the acupuncture interact either well or poorly?

Thanks again.
Phill

[NPMantis]

Hi, I have posted this on another topic but this thread seems more active, can anyone tell me, is Dit Da Jow a name for a specific oil for a general name for an external TCM oil which helps pains after training? Also I would like to know what people would recommend for bone (after conditioning) and muscular pains - Dit Da Jow in both case?

Thanks a lot!

[ElPietro]

My therapist has told me that heat is for chronic injuries and doesn't help in a regular type injury...this is where ice is more effective.

[fa_jing]

I think there are different specific formulaes for Dit Dao Jao, but basically there are two classes - internal, which is something you drink or a pill you pop, and the more common external Jao which you rub on. The Chinese doctor and Taichi master I go to for Jao, uses it for massage, in conjunction with accupunture, and it's also indicated for alleviating bruising. This will also help you in your toughening exercises. I don't know where you can order good Jao from nationally.

-FJ

[BSH]

Fa_jing was right on his explanation. There are many types of Dit Da, both external and internal. According to my Sifu, all traditional CMAs had formulae for different types of Dit Da. These formulae have been around for hundreds and thousands of years and were perfected by the Monks.

Although I noticed that other schools didn't include herblore as part of their training, I assumed it was because they were not authentic Kung Fu. Maybe it gets taught at a higher level at other schools.

I only know based on what I have used as part of my training. The Dit Da I have taken have helped me more than I ever imagined.

Check around some of the more traditional schools in your area. If you can't find it, I can find a way to send you some if you are in the US.

[BSH]

Dit Da is a general term for herbal remedies. I personally use Dit Da Yuen, Dit Da Jow, Dit Da Yeow and Dit Da Darn. Some of these can be purchased from Herbal stores and others are prepared by my Sifu according to the formulae of the system.

[BSH]

I recommend Dit Da for all martial training related soreness. There is an easy to find pill called Tin Tzat Do Jeong (sp?) which I use daily, but I take extra pills before and after more strenous workouts. It really decreases my recovery time a lot.

I personally use the Jows (internal and external) and Yeows on a daily basis also, but that is part of my training.

[wooha]

Hey Phill. Sorry to hear about the injury, hope some of the advice works for you.

If you find anywhere to buy good dit da jow in Oxford let me know. The TCM shop on the Cowley Road or that new herbal shop in the Clarendon Centre might be good starting points. Every time I do myself a mischief I wish I had some, but I never get round to seeking it out.

[TigerJaw]

Tom,
Thanks, that's were I was planning on trying this week-end when the better half is in Headington practising to be able to kick my arse.

Speaking training, where've you been?

[Sharky]

Hi guys

At the moment i am nursing a (very bad) torn/pulled abductor muscle on my right leg, close to the knee, and a bad pulled hamstring on the same leg :(

i am nursing them often with deep heat (tiger balm stinks too much and is messy - even th ewhite version) and using a hot water bottle.

should i be icing them instead?

please help :(

background info: the hamstring i did only a couple of weeks ago - i nursed it heavily and now it doesn't hurt anymore - i can nearly (well, i can, just about) touch my toes again but i don't want to push it - it's nearly 100% but not quite there.

the inside leg muscle is an on going thing that has been bugging me. i used to be able to do the splits blah blah yadda yadda, stopped stretching for a bit, went back into it and i don't actually remember hurting it, or when it happened but it bloody hurts, whenever i try to stretch, like a knife going into my leg. i left it like 3 months thinking it would go away, still here. left it 4 more months, like before, with *NO* stretching. still here. the hamstring injury seems to be making it worse. i don't know what to do. can't afford to goto a physio really.

HELP PLEASE!

[Sharky]

sorry for the partial hijack but....

i just wanna add that if it's a very cold day, my muscle on the inside of my leg (i think it's abductor) starts to hurt.

the problem is situated pretty close to the (side of/back of the) knee.

cheers :(

[TigerJaw]

What do you mean, you can't a fford a Physio?

Physiotherapy is available free on the NHS, hell I'm getting my acupuncture on the NHS. Go see your Doctor and get refered.

[wooha]

Hey TigerJaw, I sent you a PM.

[TigerJaw]

I went to the TCM shop on Cowley Road in Oxford. For any Oxfordians that don't know where that is and want to know, it's just on the far side of Tesco as you're walking away from town.

Anyway, Tom, they've got two sorts of Dit Da Jow, one made in China, one from Hong Kong. The lady behind the counter said that they were both good but recomended Red Flower Oil instead which I'm using at the moment.

She said that it's better but I wasn't quite sure if she meantt generally or just for my symptoms.

It's strange stuff. Very powerful and stains everything it comes into contact with birght orange. It's seems to make the symptoms temporarily abate at least and I think it's 'drawing out' some bruising; the way that witchhazel does. perhaps it's drawing out the bad Chi?

Phill

[wooha]

Good to know there's somewhere to get hold of these kinds of things locally.

I'd be interested to know how you get on with it.