Closed Door Martial Arts

[BSH]

I hear a lot about the big name Martial Arts, but there are rarely many posts about some of the closed door Arts: Bak Mei, Bak Fu Pai, Plum Flower.....

I am curious about the rest of the communities opinions on these. Of course, it is generally hard to get authentic training in them due to the fact that most are closed door.

What are your thoughts?

[BSH]

For the record, I feel that closed-door Bak Mei is a different art than the public White Eyebrow.

[Paul]

different how?

[Paul]

We may be talking about two different strikes as I do not study Bak Mei.

this is from your other post. How does this make you qualified to judge? Not trying to be a jerk, I'm just curious.

[BSH]

I am only qualified based only on what I have seen. I am far from a an expert, but when I caught a glimpse of closed door Bak Mei, it was different from the forms and sparring I witnessed at tournaments.

[TIger Hand]

Who and where are the "closed door" bak mei you have seen?
and who and where are the public bak mei you have seen?

[BSH]

Both were in California.

[BSH]

I was hoping for a different feel to this thread. I apoligize if I offended anyone. Let's try to change the scope of the thread. How about this:

Does anyone feel that there are Martial Arts that have different Closed-Door and public styles.

From my previous posts, you know my opinion. I am sure my training is different now than it would be if I were a closed-door disciple of a grandmaster. Any thoughts?

[Ima Pseudonym]

i do believe that some styles are taught differently in closed door environments than in public. by that i also want to say that i think the modern idea that all info is public and that there are no secrets anymore is a bit foolish.

that being said, it would stand to reason that a performance in public would be markedly different than actual authentic forms and application. if you had something worth having, why would you give it away in public for free?

D

[strangecaptain]

Here is a question whose contemplation brings up what I consider to be issues related to this discussion. Consider a hypothetical "master", i.e., someone whose kung fu is sublimely good. Suppose he/she knew a top secret super b@d@ss pattern, and further, suppose that it contains the most advanced principles of this hypothetical kung fu. Now, say that some person sneaks up on the master unawares and video tapes him/her performing this pattern. Then, the sneaker goes home and practices the pattern until it looks just like the master performing it. Would the sneaker have the master's kung fu? What things can be kept secret? What things need to be kept secret? What things can be kept secret or not because it matters little either way? Why does it not matter? Oh god, I sound like a fortune cookie! Help!

[David Jamieson]

Kung fu is taught systematically as is any field of study.

medicine as an example is taught the same way.
There are things you learn early that allow you to build further knowledge upon the fundaments.

it is a mistaken assumption to presume there are secrets in knowledge. These "secrets are just things you haven't been shown yet, but others have the information and therefore it is not "secret".

many martial arts contain a great deal of their primary knowledge in the fundaments, with refinments to those fundaments that come with practiced technique in it's many forms and drills and augmentation or supplemental exercises.

back to medicine, at a health fair you won't see open heart surgery performed for the public but you will see an assortment of the essentials. you are still going to need to spend the eight or so years in practice before you can actually perform an open heart surgery. This information is reserved for those med students who carry on through the whole system. and even afterwards improvements are made to technique and distributred to the surgeons through various seminars or study sabaticals that drs will take to keep current.

now let's say you watch an open heart surgery on tv, does that mean you can now perform it? No, but it does give you an idea of what's going on and the subject is no longer "secret" in context to your own personal knowledge.

open and closed dorr designations are another way of developing a student inside the framework of a system. The system has spent many years in development in the aims of achieving a system that is whole and complex in it's breadth and depth of knowledge and principles.

just because you can fight doesn't mean you can do it with form and technique.

There are plenty of flailers out there who have won plenty of fights. But would you learn from that person or would you learn in the framework of a system?

Many assume that they can know things because they have been shown to them, but they mistakenly make this assumption because they have not spent adequate time developing the muscle memory required to do the technique properly.

My si fu told me that "showing and teaching" are 2 completely different things. A Si Hing will show you how, a Si Fu will teach you how and why.

Be patient, stick with your studies until you have confidence and then move on to the next line of study in the art.

Generally your Si Fu will know when you are ready to learn something new. That something new may be in the system at the "closed door" level and no longer in the "open door" level.

peace

[extrajoseph]

I think the terms to use are "Yub Moon Dai Ji " (Entered Door Disciple) and "Yub Sut Dai Ji" (Entered Chamber Disciple). Some people translated them as Inner Door Disciples and Inner Chamber Disciples. They have the connotation of entering further into the inner core or the essence of a system.

In Choy Lee Fut, we have a term called "Noi Lim Sou", meaning Inside of Curtain Hands as compare to "Ngoi Lim Sou", meaning Outside of Curtain Hands. Again, the idea is that there are things easily seen and there are things hidden from view. It will take someone more experienced to show you the inner working of a system.

"Open Door" and "Closed Door" give an impression that there are secrets one is not allow to know or to enter. Strictly speaking, there is no such terms in CMA. IMHO, loose translations will often lead to misunderstanding.

[tnwingtsun]

"Oh god, I sound like a fortune cookie! Help!"



ROTF!


Helps on the way!!



See ya tomorrow!

[David Jamieson]

sf-
I'm having a little difficulty understanding what you posted.
can you please clarify what you mean regarding "secrets"?

I personally don't think there are any secrets to Kung fu, just acquire knowledge and practice application of the knowledge.

The Knowledge is available in a myriad of places in this day and age and therefore "no secrets".

Not to mention, much has been exposed to people for a very long time now.

Learning and practicing and the impetus and motivation to do so are the only things that hold back a potential studenmt of martial arts these days.

That and access to the information. But I do not think there are any "secrets" to martial arts. Just a lack of being exposed to knowledge.

peace

[Fifth Brother]

Concise Oxford Dictionary: Secret - "Kept private, not to be made known or exposed, abstain from revealing, thing only known to a limited number - amoung the number of those allowed to know it
Ergo - techniques, sets, training methodologies reserved for those students who have earned the trust of their sifu ie. closed door student.
True, many secrets have been brought out, but much of it is only the outer shell without the depth of the knowledge. To really gain the knowledge and complete information (and skills), one must still be taught by a qualified sifu.

[David Jamieson]

During external practices the secret of success lies in constant observance of the principle "Toil and Persistency". All the men who reached the top in the Shaolin practices got their high abilities in hard toil and reached successes only after a lot of regular exercises. One must rely only on his diligence. If you are not persistent in your heart, you will abandon your training half a way and loose what you have obtained during your practice.

One needs determination, and certainly one needs a good teacher. But without that self determination to succeed one cannot achieve Kung Fu.


peace

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

They are both equally important so u can reach ur full potential. One without the other is just wasting 1 of the persons time.

[Fifth Brother]

A man can practice a whole life time and not gain much skill if he is not shown the way. That is why a good teacher is the most important aspect. But without persistance, the student will not gain much from the teachers instruction because he does not stick with it to gain the skill and to gain more training.
Besides, the question was not gaining skill, but rather your (kung Lek) statement that there are no 'secrets' in kung fu knowledge. I provided a definition of a 'secret'. Since sifu do not just give their knowledge away, but a student has to earn it and if not earned the teacher keeps it to himself - ergo - it is secret according to the Oxford definition.

[extrajoseph]

When we get to a certain level, the only way to move forward is to have a one to one or small group tuition from our teachers. Everyone makes slightly different mistakes or bad habits, sometimes it is only a fraction of an inch in our posture or the wrong breathing method, so without this exclusive environment, we will find it hard to make personal progress at the highest level, hence the need for “inside door” and “inner chamber” discipleship.

It is not that the teacher withholds secrets from us by making the class difference; it is just that he or she needs the proper environment to reveal to us what is holding us back from making the breakthrough. Large group classes are only good for general instructions; we all need small group tuition to make real personal progress.

Since there are limited time and resource, a teacher has no choice but to select the more loyal and the more dedicated students to spend his valuable time with. The result is that some of us may feel that there are secrets not available to us.

[Yum Cha]

It seems like most people have a grip on the concepts, here's my take...

We're talking about two things here. Inner and outer students, and mastery of kung fu.

From my experience, an inner circle student is one that has earned their Sifu's respect, and a student the Sifu believes has what it takes to carry the tradtion further.

Each Sifu has the right and responsibility to select and foster the good students and discourage the bad seeds as they see fit, it is their legacy.

Perhaps its like probation, only with no particular time limit. To be inner circle is to be in the family, it is a personal relationship, an oath. Sure ability figures into the equasion and perhaps race too, but that is not what it is all about.

"Secrets" on the other hand, are not always Sifu's to give you. Only in finding them yourself will you truly appreciate the value and learn the lesson. Granted, if you can't make it into the inner circle, you probably haven't got much of a chance to make it to the level where that becomes an issue.

One is a matter of respect and recognition, the other is a matter of Kung Fu.

[tnwingtsun]

""Secrets" on the other hand, are not always Sifu's to give you. Only in finding them yourself will you truly appreciate the value and learn the lesson."


Nice post,some figure out the puzzel,some need help,some don't get help,but when the puzzel becomes a part of you its up to you
to solve it as the horse finds its direction.

The key seems to be finding the right direction once the puzzel is placed.



"Oh god, I sound like a fortune cookie! Help!"

[David Jamieson]

Yes it's true, we are talking a bout two different things, but in some sense they are intrinsically connected by the context to martial arts study.

A good teacher and possessing a good attitude and eagerness to learn are the keys to the car so to speak. Over time, you learn to drive the car that is you and your Kung fu improves inversely proportitionate to the amount of times you get to drive the car that is your kung fu lessons applied and as well, the subtleties of the car and it's quirks are exposed to you by the one who is letting you drive the car, or your sifu. After all, in the beginning of all training in all fields, the analogical "car", belongs to the teacher.

The teacher will reveal thyhings to you about the car. where the lights are, where the hazard lights are, where the windshield wipers are and so on until you are familiar with the car. After a time you can't wait to drive again.

eventually you will be able to drive alone, and you will be able to figure out a thing or two about the car that wasn't included in your driving lessons.

This is a very thin analogy, but to me, learning is learning and it either takes place or it doesn't.

Styles of Kung Fu have developed over time and changed to fit the understanding of a current master, however, you would recognize that car anywhere! :D Hence all the different things about let's say, Shaolin Kung Fu, and yet with the eye of the driver :D, you recognize the brand of the car immediatley.

peace

[Fifth Brother]

Hey hey


Do cars change to fit the driver :)
Cars and siu lum. what next :)

[Kune]

Of course there are secrets! Some knowledge cannot be attained by figuring it your yourself(Well unless your a genious and can live 300 years or so). Only way to learn it, is to have it taught to ya. Well the cool stuff I would think, buut thats just me reading too much kungfu comics soO yeap ;)

anyone ever read jademan comics?(buddha's palm, Blood Sword, Oriental heroes?)

^_o

[TaoBoy]

There is always information that is restricted to trusted senior students. This can often be called 'secret'. One must earn the right to learn the higher levels of a style. A Sifu is not going to give away all his knowledge to just anyone who walks in off the street.

So, the public face of the style seems different due to the fact that what is taught is not everything. The trusted students display a greater understanding due to the instructor imparting more of his/her knowledge on them.

All makes sense, doesn't it?

[Colin]

Here in the UK the most widely spread, and most controversal CMA style is Lau Gar Kuen.

Now many people seem to think that it is all kick boxing & fitness. Which in many cases is true.
But in reality there is a far more traditional system of Lau Gar Kuen being taught by Master Yau & a few of his most senior students.

He chooses however to keep this closer to himself, rather than let anybody share in this training, and subsequently many outsiders believe as Sharky once said on this forum:
"Lau Gar is just kick boxing with a bit of horse stance thrown in".

Now Master Yau knows about all these things being said about his inherited style, yet he chooses not to reveal all his "secrets" (higher level training) to the general public.

Instead he is a business man who gives the general public what they want, and he gets what he wants.
Enough money to live comfortably, and teach his small circle of personal students the full system.

Most westerners do not have the time or inclination to study for the length of time required to fully grasp the complete style, so in effect a simplified format of imparting some knowledge to the impatient westerner is better in his eyes than no knowledge at all.

From the many students that start training in a style such as Lau Gar Kuen, a few will reach a reasonable skill level. From these fewer still will gain an insight into the real kung fu that Master Yau has, and from these a handful will be chosen to receive the full transmissions of the style.

So.....The style does not really have secrets, it is just that a student has to earn the right to be shown more than just basic technique.

The best example of this, and the easiest to understand is when you see students performing the various forms. We are taught by Master Yau to show lower students the forms in a particular way, and get them to train that method.
However many movements and particularly the intent in the techniques is taught very differently at a higher level.

Now this is also true of most CMAs styles, Lau Gar Kuen is no different, except in that the westernised format has been successful beyond all expectations, and know people think that it is the be-all & end-all of the style.

So in a nut shell....
I do not really believe there are secrets, only skills and knowledge that are held back until the student has shown he/she deserves the right to the knowledge.

regards
Colin..........

[Colin]

guohuen: "Secrets=Generating different Jings. Try to figure these out without any instruction."

But surely the point is that it is not a secret, only that you require skilled instruction.
Then again secret, I suppose means to withhold the information from another. It is only secret if you don't know it!


Your example is good though, because there are many many people out there teaching CMA, but relatively few of them really know how to teach correct power development.

I've met students from other instructors within my own style that practice even things like basics very differently from the way I was taught.
So when these students take students of their own, they will have a completely different interpretation of the form.
This is the biggest concern I think. I know it is mentioned elsewhere on a thread about lineage, that after a couple of generations a style can develop/degenerate into something barely recognisable as the original.

Anyway I've gone off subject abit, but these students will often feel that the style they study does not contain many techniques that it actually does, or that there are many secrets that they cannot obtain, which infact is not strictly true.

regards
Colin........

[sanjia]

Good post on Lau Gar Kuen/ Yau Sifu, Colin. Not really thought about it like that before.

Mark S

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

"Now many people seem to think that it is all kick boxing & fitness. Which in many cases is true.
But in reality there is a far more traditional system of Lau Gar Kuen being taught by Master Yau & a few of his most senior students. "

Yes Lau Gar is a traditional southern system and if kick boxing is what is being taught, then the school should be called kick boxing and not Lau Gar. That way the controversy can be resolved - instantly.

"He chooses however to keep this closer to himself, rather than let anybody share in this training, and subsequently many outsiders believe"

Well if the instructor misrepresents his style in public, how else would the public believe otherwise. After all being a Lau Gar instructor shouldn't preclude him from opeing kick boxing gyms.

"Now Master Yau knows about all these things being said about his inherited style, yet he chooses not to reveal all his "secrets" (higher level training) to the general public."

Some people may say choosing not to reveal the secrets is selfish - that's a personal choice. Nut not teaching the full works when the student has paid his money is stealing and irresponsible.

"Instead he is a business man who gives the general public what they want, and he gets what he wants. Enough money to live comfortably, and teach his small circle of personal students the full system."

Nothin wrong with giving what the public wants but misrepresenting himself in public would only damage his reputation in the long run.

"Most westerners do not have the time or inclination to study for the length of time required to fully grasp the complete style, so in effect a simplified format of imparting some knowledge to the impatient westerner is better in his eyes than no knowledge at all."

Most westerners??? have you done a survey of all westerners vs all non-westerners to make this statement. what is a westerner anyway. If ytou haven't done the research that proves your point and claim that wesrterners can only take in a simplified format is down right racism. How do you like that!

"From the many students that start training in a style such as Lau Gar Kuen, a few will reach a reasonable skill level. From these fewer still will gain an insight into the real kung fu that Master Yau has, and from these a handful will be chosen to receive the full transmissions of the style."

I surprised with his (sifu) attitude that any students would reach a competent level in the style. If he's misrepresenting the public, how would the handful be confident they are receiving the traditional training? and at what point in one's training cycle would the instructor say - what i've taught you is not the real thing, now i'll teach you real kung fu. To me, this is a very silly way of running a shop.

"So in a nut shell....
I do not really believe there are secrets, only skills and knowledge that are held back until the student has shown he/she deserves the right to the knowledge. "

No no no. If your a student and the instructor has accpeted your fees, the teacher has the obligation to teach you. The same applies in kung fu.

[fiercest tiger]

what an analogy, but what if i have a bike?:p

pak mei was only on a donkey too, i bet you didnt know that??

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

I think closed door schools are just embaressed with the sort of stuff that they teach.

[Colin]

Master Yau , does not misrepresent his style in public.
In fact any one over here will actually see that he does not advertise Lau Gar at all!

The only time Lau Gar is seen in the martial arts magazines, is when some of the competition fighers have won a tournament.

Unfortunately this means that this is the public face of the style.

So in many ways Lau Gar's success, is also it's own worst enemy.

We do not see Lau Gar being plastered over the mags, with wild claims, or picture strips of the forms.

When once asked by a student why he had never published a book or videos of Lau Gar, he said that:
1. He did not want his lifes work to end up dusty on some bookshelf.
& 2. That he strongly believed that you could not learn the correct technique without correct instruction, and that if a student wanted to learn authentic Lau Gar they would seek him out and learn from him.

Which is just what some of us are now doing.

regards
Colin..............

[mono68]

Getting back to the original thread it is true as most of you already mentioned the differences in inner/outer student or disciple it all depends on one person the Sifu of the school. Also the difference of "showing vs. teaching" I find it true with most Sifus. Initially when you enter a kwoon you are just like in job setting on trial or probation period. The Sifu will see your worth, potential and your growth to acknowledge your status as customer or disciple(outer student or inner disciple). Most of the so called secrets are in the foundations of your styles in my opinion. You as a practitioner develop it or not.
It is true and awful when you put blood , sweat , and tears to something to realize that it is different then the Si-Hings or the Inner disciples. But also remember the old saying "the style does not make you. You make the style". It is at the end your enhancement or destruction of that style which will also make the difference in the future of that style

My two cents.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

mono68,

like a job, the boss treats you better if you threaten to leave. with the sifus - out comes the secrets.

[HuangKaiVun]

I've been a closed door disciple myself, but I'm not now.

I will say that being a disciple implies a higher level of commitment and devotion than is expected of a typical student.

When I was training in a closed-door situation, I was exposed to some breath control stuff that I'd never teach to a beginning student. This is not because the student isn't worthy, but because doing those maneuvers without the proper physical structure already in place would've been very injurious despite best intent.

Those who scoff at closed door training will never know what lies behind that door.

[Pak Mei student]

asd

[Bolt]

Hmmm. Check out
chongskungfu.com

[Yum Cha]

Why?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

HuangKaiVun

I'm happy that you've wisened up to the fraud perpertuated by closed door kung fu. It takes longer for some people but you've finally realized.

For your sifu to say that breathing is a dangerous exercise is an insult to common intellegence of baboons. It's shocking to think what some sifus feel they can get away with.

Closed door usually means shaddy. Wii the real sifu shaddy please stand up?

[HuangKaiVun]

Spoken like a true novice, Ego.

Unfortunately, higher level breath control exercises are something you'll never be exposed due to your obstinance.

Leggo your Ego. You'll actually LEARN SOMETHING.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Huang

Put it anotherway, there is no secret to breathing. In the past maybe because the ancient Chinese were ignorant in physology compared to medical practitioners of today.

To my knowledge, the effects of breathing is well researched in areas of sports medicine. And to be fair and give your closed door techniques the benefit of the doubt, I suggest you have those breathing exercises evaluated by a qualified specialist in sports medicine to varify its merit.

I await your results which I'm confident will support my point and you would LEARN SOMETHING

[friday]

I think this post will interest all of you who are focused on the original purpose of this thread.

Anyway, I can only speak of Pak Hok Pai as that is the kung fu style i pursue. Although this might be regarded as a style that is taught openly in the public, traditionally there are were and in some schools still two versions taught.

most Pak Hok Pai mo gwoons now teach only the version taught to actual students of the mo gwoon. there is actually a a different Pak Hok that is taught to students outside the school. During my stay in Hong Kong where I had the pleasure of going to 'outside students' in an actual primary school they were taught a faster and simpler version of the style in terms of basics and even forms.

in addition i also got to see and was translated a manuscript which contained the content of what was to be taught and even the number of repetitions of the shorter version of Pak Hok. this program was for students outside of the school.

Even students of the school, there are two ways to write the chinese characters which phonetically is 'sifu'. one way of writing the characters is what students of the mo gwoon refer to the sifu. bai see students refer to sifu in the other way which actually represents their 'closer' relnship to their sifu.

some sifus might retain some of their knowledge and not pass it onto non baisee students. others might not care and the bai see is merely a special relnship they wish to form with particular students who have been loyal etc??

i hope this has contributed to the original thread.

regards,

[Colin]

Friday: "Anyway, I can only speak of Pak Hok Pai as that is the kung fu style i pursue. Although this might be regarded as a style that is taught openly in the public, traditionally there are were and in some schools still two versions taught."

I know little of Bak Hok Pai, but I totaly agree that many "Public" styles are just that, public.
While there is a traditional style that is not taught so openly to the general public.

There are two sides to every coin, it's just that one side is usually hidden from view.

regards
Colin...............

[HuangKaiVun]

I could be wrong Ego, but what do board certified sports medicine physicians know about using the breath in generating and absorbing percussive kung fu jing?

For the most part, Western Medicine is far behind Eastern medicine in body kinesiology and so-called "alternative" treatments. I attended Albany Medical College for 3 years and saw this firsthand. Many of my classmates are now interested in "alternative" therapies. But not once have I heard of internal breath control being a part of the AMA's standard bank of knowledge - even for the alternative medicine boards.

I don't think you're academically qualified in kung fu OR Western medicine to troll on this issue, Ego.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

If those breathing methods you speak of actually work, it would be classified and explained in more scientific terms by the medical association.

As for alternative medicines, don't confuse the use of certain herbs and treatment methods. In the former, much research has gone into the study of active ingredients in those herbs which may be extracted for mass production.

As for western medicine being far behind eastern medicine one would see this not as a troll statement but rather a poor attempt at humor.

Are you up for a debate?

[BIU JI]

Some lineages have changes their forms for demo and some have kept them unchanged but I don't think you can tell that sort of thing from sparring when so many rules are made that pretty much rule out most techniques in pakmei except basics.

[PlasticSquirrel]

ego, your posts show your total lack of skill or understanding of the internal structure of gongfu. you are not even close to being able to competently argue with someone as experienced as huang.

as for your silly replies about current science being able to explain everything under the sun, they show how ignorant you really are of both traditional chinese medicine and western medicine.

you don't know anything about qi as something tangible. you can not emit it, feel it, or direct it. stop trolling and start practicing. you don't even realize how superficial your understanding is.

the more you try to intellectualize things, the more stupid you sound, and the further away from real gongfu you become. if you were learning under a traditional master in old china, he would beat you with his cane, and tell you to shut up. real understanding comes from real experience.

[Yum Cha]

Ego,
You are, as usual, both right and wrong. Medicine, martial arts, life in general. It comes down to perspective. Physical and metaphysical. Focused versus wholistic. The need to classify versus the ability tounderstand variation. Western pragmatism versus Eastern mythology. There is no "short" answer, only the search for an understanding.

One thing that no science has yet to understand is the brain, and therein lies the essence of the individual. Do you know about the placebo effect? Giving someone a sugar pill and telling them it is a cure, and they become cured? It is a scientific fact. Mind you, that is not to say that Eastern medicine is placebo, but to open the door to the understanding of the riddles of the human being.

Western medicine treats symptoms, and attacks disease. Eastern medicine treates the body and the mind, as they are seen as the strongest tools in healing disease and injury. A simplistic example would be to treat a wound with bandages something that increases overall circulation, and thus the blood carries more healing to the wound, as opposed to bandaging and pumping in anitbiotics. Western medicine is taking on the wholistic approach and acknowledging the power, as eastern medicine is adopting the tools and treatments of the west as well.

As far as breathing is concerned, western sports medicine does take lessons from ancient chinese breathing methods. Anarobic and aerobic training, raising the level of oxygen in the blood in anticipation of strenuous endeavour. High altitude training. Again, different perspectives, different cultural experiences, different traditions, but a common ground.

And then there is the psycological aspect, the sports psychologist that "brain washes" the athlete with visions of success, performance visualisation, psychological conditioning for competition. Belief in self, belief in ability, belief in training. Just ask any US Marine.

Just because one culture dresses it in a different cloth than another, it doesn't exclude the common ground, just disguises it. martial arts wasn't "Sport" in the olden days, it was more often survival. People who learned advantageous techniques kept them to themselves to protect themselves, to protect the efficiency of their art.

I'm told, for whatever its worth, that Choy Li Fut developed the spinning backfist to fight against the centerline styles in the South, and it is an incredibly effective technique against them. If you don't show off your techniques, others can't develop "antidotes." This is part of the Pak Mei philosophy on secrecy, carried for many generations without question, even though the relevancy is perhaps less an issue in modern times.

You love your northern styles, and they are certainly worthy, but there is no single style that is superior, only the practitioner. Which tool in a toolbox is the best one? The one that does the job you need to do at the moment, yes? There are many components to mastery beyond the physical, in life or in martial arts.

Don't underestimate the strength of a cultural imperitive...

Remember, the Chinese had restaurants, medicine and poetry while the Europeans were still hitting each other over the head with lumps of wood and throwing dead beasts on a campfire. You obviously admire some aspects of the culture, don't give up your study for enlightenment just yet.

[PlasticSquirrel]

you're being too nice to ego, yum cha. seriously, though, your explanation of the "superiority" of styles is very good:

"You love your northern styles, and they are certainly worthy, but there is no single style that is superior, only the practitioner. Which tool in a toolbox is the best one? The one that does the job you need to do at the moment, yes?"

[raving_limerick]

Personally, I subscribe to the school of the plastic dump truck, but I think that Ego's probably better suited to the hot pink watering can. ;)

Seriously, good post, Yum Cha.

[BSH]

If you have authentic forms, it won't do you much good to show them in a public competition. Nobody will recognize them. Just my honest opinion.

As for sparring, it's too political today. But you're right, until someone reaches a certain level of competency, you won't see their style in the sparring. Sadly, the master level sparring is no better.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Plastic squirrel

"ego, your posts show your total lack of skill or understanding of the internal structure of gongfu. you are not even close to being able to competently argue with someone as experienced as huang."

It's irrelevant to classify kung fu as internal. I've come across of kick boxers who reguarly kick the box out of southern masters who profess internal powers. I asked the boxer if he had internal powers - and he said oh you mean the old one two. Well that's very external to me and i'll go by that any day then some sit there and meditate formulae.

"as for your silly replies about current science being able to explain everything under the sun, they show how ignorant you really are of both traditional chinese medicine and western medicine."

I've neve3r said that science expalins everything. just that werstern medicine has superseeded chinese medicine which has merit but we now have something better. Ever heard of technological advancement - your ancient chinese friends knew of that and had marvelled at what the west could produce during the early 20th C, let alone what we have today.

"you don't know anything about qi as something tangible. you can not emit it, feel it, or direct it. stop trolling and start practicing. you don't even realize how superficial your understanding is."

I don't know ewhat it is, and neather have you shown that you do! You've mentioned what its not. But from what you described chi is probably not important. BTW you can feel a boxer's punch.

"the more you try to intellectualize things, the more stupid you sound, and the further away from real gongfu you become. if you were learning under a traditional master in old china, he would beat you with his cane, and tell you to shut up. real understanding comes from real experience."

We all begin life as goofballs. But some people have had the goofballs beaten out of them by traditional masters in china. BTW is what you're saing historical evidence or just some post modern southern kung fu training routine that is a modified version of shaw brothers movies that had the foundation in chinese opera that mant clf practitioners believe to closly resemble their styles? I guess they are all one and the same thing and everytime you go to a kung fu class - you're just and unpaid actor without even knowing it.

Oh how pathethic you are!

[PlasticSquirrel]

just because something is 'internal' doesn't make it's practitioners good at it. your off-hand comment about the kickboxer (i'm still not sure exactly how that explains anything) is quite irrelevent. because a kickboxer beats a southern 'master', and professes his '1-2' to be internal, you will follow that? the real masters -- the ones who didn't practice sport-fighting, used neijin. wong fei-hung's 10 killing hands would not have been nearly so deadly. guo yunshen's bengquan would have been nothing more than a mechanical punch. sun lutang would have been beaten easily due to his size. if what they did had nothing to do with qi, then their internal training methods were still responsible for their skill. you should try them.

ego, you did post that the scientific community could explain qi and it's workings. you can't deny that you wrote that.

western science has not conquered over anything. it may prove to be more useful or a better explanation for many people, but it does not even touch upon many things that are in chinese medicine. without overcoming everything in a system, you can not say that it is superior in every way, which you obviously implied. western medicine can not even touch what i practice every day. it is still very primitive and undeveloped compared to what it should be and what it probably will be one day. until then, i will go with the medical system that can explain things best for me, not for some joe schmo like you that doesn't even think that anything 'internal' exists, and likes living in ignorance.

you will never be good at gongfu, and certainly not as good as huang. your stubborness and foolish dogmatic clings to your own small island of experiences will see to that.

whether what i said at the bottom of my post was 'historical evidence' or not, it is. chinese masters have been known to despise intellectualization, preferring real practice and real skill. this is something that i take to heart. i spend my practice time practicing. you should try it. you might learn something.

as for me explaining my own qualifications to speak about internal subjects, ask me anything you want. if i can answer correctly, then it is not because i have read many books. it is because i have practiced to discover them for myself.

you are still new to gongfu, if you can not even feel qi. you should be asking the questions, not professing the answers.

[HuangKaiVun]

No point in preaching the benefits of closed-door training to those that troll it, PlasticSquirrel.

Even if the door was open to Ego, he'd walk in and out without learning a thing. Of course, no master in his right mind would invite such an avowed skeptic into his inner circle.

You and I both know that a person can't learn that which he refuses to believe in - though we can all FEEL IT at the hands of a master.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Plastic squirrel

"you don't know anything about qi as something tangible. you can not emit it, feel it, or direct it. stop trolling and start practicing. you don't even realize how superficial your understanding is."

you're the one who said that you cannot
a) emit chi
b) direct chi
c) feel chi

To summize what you've said, chi is not observable and as Hung mentioned it is a believe.

From this alone, chi is not within the realms of science given that science is emperical. Given classical forms of combat is a subset of physics which is a subset of science, then from your above statement alone, chi is not relevent to kung fu. ( note: kung fu is a subset of classical combat)

You do not have to say what chi is. Just from what it is not, we can conclude that it is not part of kung fu. My logic is water tight. Try picking a hole in it.

[fiercest tiger]

I guarentee a kickboxer trained properly probably could whoop half the asses of half the percentage of northern and southern.

what would you call a real trained kung fu fighter, actually how would you train a kung fu fighter?

thanks in advance
FT

[Ming Fai]

EGO

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that Plastic squirrel meant that YOU are the one who cannot emit/direct/feel Qi, but the fact that you cannot experience Qi doesn't mean that nobody can.

In traditional Chinese martial arts Qi has always played an important role because the ancient masters believed that Qi cultivation could lead to higher spiritual awareness, prevent illness, improve health and longevity. Furthermore, they realised that muscular power decreases (old age) but Qi power (jing) will last throughout your whole life and with proper training it will become more pure and effective, even at elderly age. Maybe arrange a match between an elderly kickboxer and an old Taiji/Bagua/Xingyi/Baji/Wingchun/Choylifut/Hunggar/Bakmei/whateverchinesestyle practitioner and see who's right. I'll place my bet on the Chinese.

Now, you claim that Qi is not relevant for CHINESE kungfu because from the WESTERN point of view "chi is not within the realms of WESTERN science given that WESTERN science is emperical. Given classical forms of combat is a subset of physics which is a subset of WESTERN science, thus chi is not relevent to CHINESE kung fu"... ???

I'm sorry but Qi training is and always has been a part of traditional chinese martial arts. You may not believe in Qi and there's nothing "wrong"with training external kungfu without the Qigong stuff. But you just cannot conclude Qi is not "relevant" to kungfu, thus saying that every serious kungfu practitioner from the past and present has got it all wrong.

Bye!

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

That the laws of physics works the same in China as it does at the opposit end of the world. Which means there is no such a thing as western or easter science.

The difference is not a matter of east or west but of understanding pertaining to societiies at different stages of development. Ancinet china obviously being the more primative of the two. I know this is pretty obvious but people here are missing the point.

Can plastic squirrel emit chi? can you emit chi? So if the converse is true for the rest of you - then you can emit, feel and direct chi. In other words you claim to observe chi.

Well, we can measure the power delivered by muscles in terms of Watts (ie. J/t). You can even set up an aparatus that converts muscle power to electricity.

If you cannot do the same with chi, then don't go around claiming that you can observe it! Conduct the experiment in the East if you think the laws are not uniform. I await your results.

[Ming Fai]

When I was in Hongkong I went to a certain clinic where children with mental and physical problems were treated. I went there to inquire about the treatments (my teenage brother has serious learning difficulties) and I found out that the doctor there used a certain method of TONGUE ACUPUNCTURE. I wanted to test the method of this doctor, so he made me squeeze this certain device that measures your strength. Then he stuck a needle in my tongue a few times, saying that he will open some Qi points in my arms and shoulders. Then he made me squeeze the device again. The machine indicated that my power had increased 1.5 times compared the first time.

I saw with my own eyes how the condition of many young children improved, some of them couldn't even talk on the age of 10 prior to the treatment. Some teenage kids with serious acne problems were treated and their zits disappeared alomst the very next day!

I told the doctor that I had never heard of TONGUE acupuncture before, in orthodox Traditional Chinese Medicine no acupuncture points on the tongue are mentioned. The doctor then told me that he found some information about this in the Huangdi Neijing (The Yellow Emperor's Book on the Internal Matters) and claimed that this technique already existed in the past but somehow it was lost. He only re-invented it.

Quite an amazing feat for such a primitive society like Ancient China, huh?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ming,

One of the premise of good science is for that experiment to be replicated throughout the world. Someone had claimed to have achieved cold fusion and had measured the output through some aparatus they'd setup...... you know the full story.

Did you have that equipment independently tested, or better still have your own equipment ready. I like to expose fakes don't you?

[Ming Fai]

Well, time will tell if it is genuine or not. At least the doctor convinced me and I'm planning to take my brother to the clinic to be treated.

Now, I agree with you that Western science and medicine are at many fields superior to that of the East. But even western physicians are convinced that Traditional Chinese Medicine works and in some cases where Western medicine fails, TCM will have effect. Many Western doctors now take courses on TCM just to know more about acupuncture, tuina, Chinese herbology etc. Now, Traditional Chinese Medicine is based on the Existence of Qi. So, if TCM really is effective, then Qi does exist. Furthermore, Qi has always played an important role in the Chinese martial arts, because Chinese martial arts are in fact a blending of classical forms of combat with traditional Chinese medicine. Therefore, Qi must be relevant for kungfu-training.

I am aware of the fact that there are many frauds out there but that doesn't mean all Qigong practices are mumbojumbo. There are many people in Taiwan who were cancer patients and they were all cured after intensive practice of Guolin Qigong.

By the way, in the Forbidden City Museum you can still see the first seismograph build by Zhang Heng around 100 AD. The Ancient Chinese were quite sophisticated but it's a shame that they did not made an effort to further development.

[PlasticSquirrel]

a little late on this reply to you, ego, but to clarify:

i meant YOU, not 'you' as in everyone besides me. i can, some others on this board can (some very well), but you can not. if you could, you wouldn't speak so ignorantly.

i don't need to defend myself from you. i am more than capable of fending for myself. i need to defend others who don't know any better than to listen to your nonsense.

note: this is for the records. i don't expect people to read this post, be interested, and keep this god forsaken thread going any longer...

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Plastic squirrel,

if you're the only one who could feel it, taste it, see it, experience it, you could be insane.

Remembering for science to work it does not require a belief.

[BSH]

I have listened to this quietly for a long time. Proof works both ways. If you can prove something is true, then that is the best option. However, until you can disprove something, it is still considered theory.

As soon as you can disprove the internal aspects of Kung Fu, you are just barking louder than you can bite. It is a weak mind that dismisses something because of doubt. The problem is that the MA community is 95% fraud when they claim internal.

With your attitude, it should be your life's goal to find an authentic Internal Kung Fu that will change your opinion. Keep looking and looking until you have searched your entire life and failed to find it. Then, if you have truly spent your life searching, you can claim victory, but only for yourself.

I was once like you. My problem was that I found a path that had too many coincidences. My doubts turned into faith when I could no longer explain them away.

Best wishes for you in your life's path.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

"I have listened to this quietly for a long time. Proof works both ways. If you can prove something is true, then that is the best option. However, until you can disprove something, it is still considered theory."

That's incorrect, the onus of prove is purely on the person who presents the theory. In terms of chi, you don't even have a hypothesis let alone a prove. Let me ask you to define chi in 100 words or less. Chi is.....

"As soon as you can disprove the internal aspects of Kung Fu, you are just barking louder than you can bite. It is a weak mind that dismisses something because of doubt. The problem is that the MA community is 95% fraud when they claim internal."

If your prepared to entertain a weak mind, then lets just say that in a room of 100 so called internal art practitioners selected at random. I remove 5 of them at random. How confident are you in varifying the validity of the 95 practitioners with a 97.5% success?

"With your attitude, it should be your life's goal to find an authentic Internal Kung Fu that will change your opinion."

Let's just say most biologist do not go chasing after the Loch Ness Monster and I will not go chasing after the Big Foot of kung fu. But it looks like you did. Why?

"Keep looking and looking until you have searched your entire life and failed to find it. Then, if you have truly spent your life searching, you can claim victory, but only for yourself."

There're better things to do in life and the onus of prove is on the person who presents the theory.

"I was once like you. My problem was that I found a path that had too many coincidences. My doubts turned into faith when I could no longer explain them away."

You are absolutely right. Until you place a chi kung practitioner under lab conditions and have that su*ker prove his worth your working on circumspecs. Remebering that science operates on observations and not on faith! My advice to you is look harder - there're also a lot of shonky used car sales people out there.

"Best wishes for you in your life's path."

I hope you found my lesson enlightening. Good luck!

[EAZ]

I do not want to get into the discussion of levitating sifus and Immortals.

However I do want to add an ange to the discussion.

It has been my experience that:
0. The objective of Buddhisme and Taoism (and I think in reality Western religion by a more convoluted fashion) is to perceive reality as it is.
1. Analytical reasoning is insuficient alone (although very handy at times) to comprehend reality, as reality exists independently of analytical reasoning.
2. That beleiving we actually control our destiny, that our merit is built soley on our well thought out actions is pure HUBRIS.
3. That Asians built up another method of reasoning to apprehend reality, which made them discard certain analytical pathes in favour of other pathes. Hence their slower development in the field of technology.

I give as a good example for these three points the Yi King. I do not really think it is important to criticize the Yi King on the basis of whether it is a good fortune telling device. If this were your angle of attack you are like Don Quichotte fighting the windmill.

The Yi King is actually a complete method of perception of reality (read annexes as well if you have not already, very important).

I am not saying that it is necessarily closer to reality, but certainly a refleshing view from our point of view.

Your desire to subject Asian metaphysics (if there is such a thing) and more particilarly the system described by a canon of litterature as internal energy to Western canon, is kind of a waste of time.

If I said to a girl:
"I love you"
"I have a feeling of blood rushing and and my eyes are watering and I feel all tingly"
"My level of testosterone has now reached .08% of my blood content",
we all agreee that option one is probably the most appropriate to describe what I am experiencing.

If you absolutely maintain that option 1 is an illusion because in reality it is option 2,3, I think you are probably deficient in life experience.

There are of course points of intersection. Eastern medecine has somehow stumbled upon some pretty cool therapies to cure people of a LOT of things, which Western medecine, let's face it, is really quite ill equipped to deal with.

Of course talk about vacinations, heart transplant etc, to an Asian doctor and they will tell you to go elsewhere.

Your refusal to acknowledge that reality exists outside of a Western anthropomorphic viewpoint is really the crux of the issue here.

Understand that I can dish out at least equal criticism of Asian civilisation, and I prefer living in my own, but 15 years of steady contact with Asian culture have only served to show me the relativity of my viewpoint.

You say science = repeatable experiments that are condusive to establshing universal laws valid throughout the world. This is a goal in itself.

I say: I am happy that we have proven that gravity exists, etc.... but my subjective experience of reality is not really enriched by this. The only type of experience that is valid is fleeting moments, in combat or forms, of reality as it is, ie the pracice of Kung Fu. It is not through tools or the encyclodepia Britannica that I will learn how to live a better life.

Discussing the issue of internal energy is simply a moot point.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

I don't dispute that there are other branches of philosophical studies besides science. Maths is one of them.

So what is love? you described it as a feeling as well as biochemical interactions within your bloodstream. both are valid but only one would be useful for a biochemist at least within the context of the office hours.

So what is chi? If its a belief then it may form some basis of philosophical discussion. However, in the context of combat which is what kung fu is all about, it is not so much as to whether you belief you can stop a punch but rather can you stop a punch. Please describe how a chiful person can stop a punch better than a chiless person.

[guohuen]

The person with more chi is a heck of a lot faster.

[BSH]

Although I may be quicker than others, let's forget about that. Let's say I can't stop a punch better than anyone else. What I can do is take a punch better than almost anyone out there.

How do you respond when you get hit? Ouch or oof. If someone hits me and I don't feel it, I can better respond. If I feel it, it distracts me and keeps me from performing my next strike. If a strike doesn't affect me, I'm that much quicker at hurting my opponent.

You will agree with that, but you will disagree that it has anything to do with internal. That's where our opinions differ.

As always, you try to defend your opinion by saying it hasn't been proved. I, on the other hand maintain that, until I can disprove something, it has the potential of being true.

I am a simple mathmetician in my non-Kung Fu life. That means that I am an analytical person filled with doubts. Each time someone tells me something, I try to verify it. That is very similar to you. However, when I am unable to prove something, I still hold the belief that it may be true until I can positively disprove it. It is a fool who does otherwise.

I never state that something is true without proof. However, I likewise won't say it isn't true without proof. The burden of proof works both ways. Open your mind.

As to the two potential points you made responding to my previous post:

1) That's incorrect, the onus of prove is purely on the person who presents the theory. In terms of chi, you don't even have a hypothesis let alone a prove. Let me ask you to define chi in 100 words or less. Chi is.....

The onus of the proof (not prove) is on the person only if he claims something as fact. I don't. I am not so ignorant as to say that Ch'i doesn't exist because I can't explain it in 100 words or less. I also can't disprove it in 100 words or less, therefore, its existance is still plausible. I don't claim that it is absolutely a fact. I believe it because I can't disprove it and too many things are happening that I can't explain away as coincedence. I keep trying to disprove it though. I won't give up questioning until I can prove or disprove it.

2) If your prepared to entertain a weak mind, then lets just say that in a room of 100 so called internal art practitioners selected at random. I remove 5 of them at random. How confident are you in varifying the validity of the 95 practitioners with a 97.5% success?

IF YOU REMOVE 5 OF THEM AT RANDOM, THE VALIDITY OF THE REMAINING 95 REMAINS 95%. My specific emphasis of my math major was statistics. Trust me. I can prove this unless you can confidently state the validity of the 5 removed. BTW, I know I was yelling using all caps.

I had hope for you and still do. Scientists are constantly looking for ways to disprove theories as am I. But, until they can disprove a statement, they still respect the possibility that it may be possible. How about you?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

"Although I may be quicker than others, let's forget about that. Let's say I can't stop a punch better than anyone else. What I can do is take a punch better than almost anyone out there."

That is the natural result of training. Nothing to do with chi. Through training, your reflexes should improve and there should be less chance of being hit square on the chin so to speak. You'll probably be stronger with more muscle covering. That's your logical explanation as opposed to your mystical one.

"As always, you try to defend your opinion by saying it hasn't been proved. I, on the other hand maintain that, until I can disprove something, it has the potential of being true."

Sure theres a potential to be true, just like some one claiming to having been visited by extraterrestrials or perhaps these people have mental disorders. You then got to ask yourself, if its so prevalent, why hasn't it been proved. Again I'll ask you Chi is.....

"I never state that something is true without proof. However, I likewise won't say it isn't true without proof. The burden of proof works both ways. Open your mind."

Then to you, if chi is neither true or false then what is it. The burden of prove is always on the person who presents the concept. In either case, it is uncecessary to look at things from the pespective of chi.

To satisfy your curiosity, why don't you conduct scientific experiments on people who claim to have chi. You claim to have looked had and tried to disprove chi, what exactly have you done?


2) If your prepared to entertain a weak mind, then lets just say that in a room of 100 so called internal art practitioners selected at random. I remove 5 of them at random. How confident are you in varifying the validity of the 95 practitioners with a 97.5% success?

"IF YOU REMOVE 5 OF THEM AT RANDOM, THE VALIDITY OF THE REMAINING 95 REMAINS 95%. My specific emphasis of my math major was statistics. Trust me. I can prove this unless you can confidently state the validity of the 5 removed. BTW, I know I was yelling using all caps."

Yes that's right, so if I know the 5 to be genuine while you don't and I remove them from the sample, how confident are you in picking out the 95 to be fake with 97.5% success?

"I had hope for you and still do. Scientists are constantly looking for ways to disprove theories as am I. But, until they can disprove a statement, they still respect the possibility that it may be possible. How about you?"

Yes, but fist you need a theory. Chi is not even that. It is not even a hypothesis. Once again what is chi supposed to be besides some mystical power eminating from humans and trees.