Kung Fu in UFC or Pride?

[apeters28]

Kung Fu has always gotten a bad rap because critics claim that they haven't proven it in UFC or Pride or any other events like them. Does anyone know of anybody who was a kung fu practitioner and did compete in either UFC, PRIDE, or something like that? If you do, could u please post their names.

Thank You
Andrew

[Tinman]

No I can't name any Kung Fu practioners.
Thats because there weren't any.
it's possible that Kung Fu just really Sucks
Yes thats it. Kung Fu Sucks.

[apeters28]

Tinman,

I wasn't asking about your opinion of kung fu, but rather if any fought in UFC. Grow up man, and find somewhere else to get your attention that you seem to need.

[CanadianBadAss]

I'll to go with Tinman on this one, kung fu just doesn't hold up the way that karate does in the UFC.

[Tinman]

.

[taijiquan_student]

Please leave.

[respectmankind]

Could you have beat Yip Man? Let alone many others who were just as good. Enough said.

[jon]

You are of course very correct in your accusation.
Infact thousands of people the world over are stricken with this disorder and its your solem duty to bring enlightenment to them.
This problem runs so deep that it has been around for thousands of years and over different times has had various intigators and conspiritors.
The Chinese of course all know and laugh at us silly white folk dancing around pretending to fight. Behind closed doors they all really train in BJJ.
This is becouse everyone realises that you always judge a book by its cover. Kung fu often looks silly to a westener hence it obviously IS silly. This is true also for the Chinese who believe that rolling around on the floor with a sweaty man in nothing but your underwear is a very appealing pass time. They love to look and feel plus fight like a dog, infact its a big part of there culture.
This is also the reason why so many traditional exponents rush to compeate in blood sport events for personal gain.
I mean just becouse your ancestors incisted on not even performing in public and keeping the arts for your personal health and defence. This doesnt mean you shouldnt run out and change the tradition to include beating people up on TV for money.

Man WHAT ARE THEY THINKING!
Im personaly willing to help, im going to go to my Bagua class tommorow and tell my my sifu who has studied Tai Chi for his whole life and has had it passed down in his family for generations that he is totaly crazy. I mean surely he should have known better, all the people he used to fight were just letting him win. As where the two young guys [he's old but i cant figure out how old as he moves better than me] he grabbed red handed snaching wallets not that long ago, he must realise by now his arts dont work.
Im sure he will see the light and join me on my way to boxing classes.




Just incase....
This whole post has a sarcasm meter that is off the chart so please dont take it seriously:rolleyes:

[BeiKongHui]

you sir, are the man. Bravo!
:cool: :cool:

[jaz1069]

Big bad Jon!

Thanks, Jon!

I was going to sit here and write out a witty response to that mush above your post but now, what's the point? Well said, sir.

John

[David Jamieson]

I wanna know why i have never seen a bjjer or a karate guy ever win a world heavyweight boxing championship???

what's up with that/ Doesn't bjj or karate have what it takes to defeat a boxer?

:rolleyes:

that's my rant, thank you and peace

[Yung Apprentice]

Dude.......that was great. I,I,I,I,I had a tear in my eye. :D

[dezhen2001]

very nicely done sir :)

david

[neptunesfall]

kung lek - LOL@ your avatar! mmmBAAAYYYBBEEEE ROOOOOTH!

[Reappah-X]

Now this is pretty **** hilarious! It's pretty obvious that guy was being sarcastic, funny how you all took it the wrong way! heheh

Reap

[David Jamieson]

reappah x-

do you think he was displaying the same sarcasm as the 900 other guys saying the same thing in a kung fu forum do day in and day out for the last year?

yeesh, how were you expecting people who have heard this small rant too many times to react to yet another incarnation of the same old dead horse?

hahahaha, now that's funny

peace

[jjj]

Jason Delucia, Fred Ettish and that guy who fought in the UFC in Puerto Rico are the only ones I can think of off hand...

BTW Fred has a site with some techniques:
http://ettishfetalfighting.8m.com/

[Reappah-X]

Kung Lek,

It seemed like humerous sarcasm to me, not anything harmful or anything like that. Perhaps people need to lighten up? ; )

Reap

[EARTH DRAGON]

My kung fu brother Joel sutton won UFC 6 and 7 doing 8 step praying mantis kung fu.

Actually it was deemed to bloodiest UFC in history.

He head butted his oppnent and then stuck his thumbs in the split forhead and ripped it open. Mike the referree stopped the fight.

I also hosted yoshiki takahashi from japan at my school where he trained for 3 weeks before the UFC that was schedualed for niagra falls but I guess he doesnt count becuse he is japanese and fights in the World pancrase......

[BoxerChick]

I was thinking...someone asked if you could have beaten yap man.
In the wing chun book they talk about how he was a wing chun badass.
But I was thinking....he only proved himself against mostly other little chinese dudes....and mostly against ones who didn't know kung fuey like he did. In fact, they said he got beat once by another wing chun guy, and then when he was a cop he grabbed a guy once and held on to him. Big deal.
So, even though he might know alot of good wing chun technique, there is not relative proof that he was a great fighter.
It just might be possible that there are any number of people on this forum, including myself, who could have beat yap man pretty easily.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Your kidding right?

Just becuse he was small makes no difference. It is not the size that matters but the idea of attempting to strike someone you couldnt hit, If you cannot hit him you would not be succsesful in any attempt.

Yosheiba was 5'2 140lbs do you think you could have taken him too?

Try catching a rabbit with mittens on you'lll have better luck.

[fightfan]

Jason DeLucia was a red sash five animal kung fu artist that fought in 3 UFCs losing two of the three to "pure" BJJ artists.
He fought in UFC 1 & 2 which were the UFCs with the least amount of rules.
The funny thing is that Jason fought Royce in a Gracie challenge match two years before the first UFC (Gracie In Action) and got beat pretty badly a couple of times. He went into the first UFC having trained for two years in BJJ so he knew what to expect.
David Levicki, a 6'5 280 lbs wing chun fighter fought in the UFCII preliminaries against Johnny Rhodes, a 39 year old 6'0 210 lbs. shorin ji ryu black belt. Levicki tapped due to blood in the eyes. (he couldnt see).
Levicky also fought Rickson in Japan and lost, of course.
;)

[Archangel]

Earth, you know he didn't win UFC 6 or 7; he won alternate matches in each. His record since then though had been less than stellar losing his last 3 by submission. I'm still trying to find more info about the "low mantis" techniques we discussed before, it's very difficult to find.

As for other Kung Fu UFC competitiors


David Levicki (WING CHUN) - Loss UFC 2 (Rhodes)

Scott Baker (WING CHUN KUNG FU) - Loss UFC 2 (Delucia)

Jason Delucia (FIVE ANIMAL KUNG FU) - Won UFC 2 (Baker) , Loss UFC 2 (Gracie)

Felix Lee Mitchell (SHAOLIN KUNG FU) - Loss UFC 3 (Shamrock)

Asbel Cansio (WING CHUN) - Loss UFC 6 (Benetau)

Reza Nasri (Ving Tsun) - Loss UFC 11 (Johnston)

[Ryu]

Why are you responding to a troll?
Continually mispelling people's names when the easy spelling is right there in front of you is a troll tactic, and is also very reminiscent to a certain troll we all came to love, don't you think?
;)

Ryu

[JasBourne]

Boxerchick, a little advice: if you don't know what you are talking about, maybe think about having a little respect before you say these kinds of things, ok?

The guy's name is Yip Man, and he basically consolidated and refined a particular style of kung fu. The generic term in pidgin for CMA is "Kung Fu" or "Gung Fu", not "kung fuey". Not all asians are "little dudes", and even a small person can be a formidable fighter. Yip Man took down all kinds of people in his life, read more about him if you are really interested. The pictures you see are of him as a very old man, and he could still kick @ss.

And oh, spar against someone who has been doing wing chun for 4 or 5 years and then come back and tell us how badly you could have beaten that little old man who did it for like 60 years. You are seeing only what you want to see, not understanding the principles or the art. Wing Chun is not about fighting power with power (something boxers train to do). Don't be making up your mind about something based on the pictures you see in a book and the prejudgements in your own mind.

:p

[Ryu]

Jas,
I wouldn't waste my breath. BoxerChick = troll

:)

Ryu

[BoxerChick]

Jasbourne,
Sorry to P.O. you girl, but it made sense to me.
If there is not proof that someone could fight, then it is true that anyone on this forum could beat them.
Where can I find records of old yips fights?
Thats all I am saying.
We have proof and records that some people in the past, like say John Sullivan was a badass.
All we have are other kung fueys saying this old master was bad...and if you look in any kung fuey or karate magazine you can find dozens of hokey con men claiming to be badasses and claiming imaginary fight records that no one can prove.
Nothing against wing chun....it looks pretty cool compared to other styles, but I just think that just because someone was a great kung fuer like yip must have been doesnt make them a good fighter.

[BoxerChick]

and whos this Ryu who is calling me a troll?
I look nothing like a troll and at least I dont idolize some
video game character...real mature.

[JasBourne]

Wing chun is not about Yip Man, anymore than boxing is about John Sullivan. Yip's life is well documented, do the homework if you are truly interested in him. Go to a school if you truly want to see how the style works.

Ryu is just about the nicest guy you will ever meet online, and he's been respectfully coming to this board for years. He is a grappler interested in the CMA, and brings a lot of wisdom and knowledge to everyone here.

[Ryu]

Thanks Jas. :) I'll have to add that it's respectable people like you that keep my interests in CMA and this board, up.

BoxerChick, I'm guessing you said something about me or to me, but don't bother because I won't be able to see your posts through the ignore function.

Have a nice day. :D

Ryu

[EARTH DRAGON]

You are correct , I should have specified that they were alternate bouts. however my point was simply to explain to the thread starter that the UFC has had sucsseful kung fu practioners that have won even in the alternative bouts.

ryu dont worry your head freind we all love ya

Jas bourne great advice to boxer chik

Boxer chik take the advice.

everyone else keep smiling

[CrushingFist]

boxer chick , quick speaking with your A$$hole, try using your mouth.. stupid troll.

Anyways, onto the topic. I only watch pride, barely ever watch UFC. From what i've noticed, the guys outside of BJJ seem like they're not neccessarily the best in their system. Because they're systems aren't usually geared towards pride or UFC. BJJ seems more geared towards UFC and pride. Grappling arts in general are geared towards UFC and pride. I was watching a few pride fights, and the Muay thai fighters couldn't even do roundhouse kicks correct. I mean,...c'mon, are they really representing the ideal of what type of fighter their system would produce? no.
The ppl in those things outside of BJJ are not the best , they're more in it for personal gain, fun, $, fame, etc etc etc..

Unfortunately no really experienced kung fu guy's have entered, but whatever, keep the art real. it's all good.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Perhaps the bigget over look in the UFC is partially becuse it was geared around rules which were made up of the board of directors most of which are gracies or retired BJJ sport referee's.
My point is if something is arranged to favor one thing or another statisticlly it will end up in that favor..

i.e the UFC rules state that when one shoots in and the fighters go to the ground that fight should not be stopped. Obviously this would favor ground fighting tatics. While very few kung fu stlyes have ground fighting techniques this would not be obtimal for stand up type styles.

Now turn things around, if the rules stated that once a fighter shoots and gains control and they hit the ground they must stand up and start over. tis would leave BJJ in the losing bracket ever time.

You see if the set up is bias over one or more aspect than the outcome is not properly judged, which is why so many uneducated/ untrained people have flocked to the BJJ schools with thoughts of superiority in their heads over that of kung fu or other stand up type arts. Kung fu practioners know the diffrence but when you ask a BJJ guy they always reffer to that UFC analogy.......

If we made a rule that didint allow sumo wrestlers to use their weight or their hands what who become of sumo?

I think with the diversity of the martial arts in general you cannot expect for them all to come together and play by a standardised set of rules.

As I have pointed out those rules would evedently favor one or the other of any style, but the end result would not and could not be fairly judged.......

[Leonidas]

I'm with Ryu and CrushingFist on this one. Only way to settle the my style is better than yours issue is to have the best practitioners from each art go at it with no rules at all, but thats not going to happen for obvious reasons, we're not barbarians. But, even then i dont think it would settle anything. In order to make a statistic you would need to have dozens of fights and not just one or 2. If i'm remembering correctly, competitors practicing "Combat" Wrestling are having major success against Brazilian "wrestlers". Is that gonna become the new craze. I bet in a year wrestlers are gonna come out of nowhere claiming to practice the ultimate style. After all Wrestling beats BJJ which beats Muay Thai which beats Kung Fu which beats Karate which beats Boxing...........

[Archangel]

I really disagree with your premise hear Earth Dragon.

"i.e the UFC rules state that when one shoots in and the fighters go to the ground that fight should not be stopped. Obviously this would favor ground fighting tatics. While very few kung fu stlyes have ground fighting techniques this would not be obtimal for stand up type styles."

In this example Kung Fu is being limited by it's own TRAINING METHODS AND PRINCIPLES, NOT BY THE RULES.

"Now turn things around, if the rules stated that once a fighter shoots and gains control and they hit the ground they must stand up and start over. tis would leave BJJ in the losing bracket ever time."

In this example, BJJ and other grappling arts are being limited by THE RULES AND NOT THERE STYLES.

There is a HUGE difference here.

[Mr. Nemo]

In response to the poster's question, Joel Sutton and Jason DeLucia were both kung fu stylists. Fred Ettish, however, was not, I believe he was kempo, but I'm not sure.

[JasBourne]

Wasn't Fred Ettish that "Fetal Fighting" guy? You know, drop on the ground, curl up like a newborn an flail?? Unbelievably comical stuff. How the heck did he survive a UFC bout (or did he)?

"Fetal Fighting - Combat for Your Inner Child" :D

[Mr. Nemo]

He survived his UFC bout by curling into a little ball on the floor while Johnny Rhodes beat the s.hit out of him.

He showed a lot of heart, though. He took a lot of punishment without tapping.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Your response was exactly my point! did you not see what I was getting at? or possilbly I did not expalin myself clearly. Or you didnt understand my meaning set by my (imaginary sceneirio)

The whole point of my post was to state that the rules and restrictions of the UFC cannot treat every style fairly. And it is becuse of those rules that all styles cannot be judged fairly.

So based on your post you said the same things that I did but yet you started with I do not agree???????????

If the UFC says its ok to go to the ground than ground fighting stlyes will be favored. If they state that you cannot go to the ground then stand up stlyes will be favored.

So the last thing you said was their is a huge difference. That is exactly what I said by stating that the rules make the differnece.

What do you not agree with?

[fightfan]

:confused:
Amazing.

[old jong]

I dont see a rule problem in favor of grappling! I see that when a stand up stylist learn and perfect takedown defenses, he is at no disadvantage at all. ;) It becomes very dangerous to even get close of him.

[Richie]

I never seen anyone in those comps that I would consider a kung fu stylist. I just seem a few guys who watched too many Jackie Chan movies and then put on a black kung fu with white cuffs. Yeah, those clowns were KF master.

[fightfan]

Old Jong, you are so right! However I dont believe that there is any fighter in UFC or Pride that only trains the takedown defense now days. Even world renowned grappler hater Gilbert Yvel trains groundwork and he REALLY hates grapplers.
I see it like water skiing. You can have the best balance, streingth, technique, etc. to stay on the skiis, but you HAVE to know how to swim just in case you fall in the water.


:)

[Archangel]

Earth, work with me here; Let's look at this again.

"If the UFC says its ok to go to the ground than ground fighting stlyes will be favored"

Tell me why groundfighting styles are favored in the UFC. All the fights are started standing and the grappler has to get passed the strikers range in order to bring the fight to the ground. Lets look at this another way.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
NHB Venue (WVC, UFC 1-5, Early Pride)

A) You take a striker and you put him into a NHB format, all his weapons are still there, the rules have not limited him at all; he is free to do anything except eye gouge and bite.

B) You take a grappler and put him into a NHB format, all his weapons are still there, the rules have not limited him at all; he is free to do anythin except eye gouge and bite.


------------------------------------------------------------------- Striking Only Venue

A) Striker is still able to utilize all of his weapons and not be limited at all

b) Grappler has lost his most important range and now has to play the strikers game, not because of the inadequacies of his art but because of the rules.




If you haven't gotten it by now, I'll say it again.

A striker and grappler are on even terms when it comes to MMA, for you to say that a striker is at a disadvantage is a complete fallacy. How is it different? A striker has to adapt to grappling and a grappler has to adapt to striking. Why do you believe that the striker is some how unfairly treated here when they are BOTH forced to fight in a range that is out of there element.

[Braden]

Leonidas - There is no way to 'prove' the 'my style is better than your style' issue, because it is an absurd and meaningless problem. Anyone considering the performance of others to justify their own methods is allready looking in the wrong place.

[Leonidas]

Uh yea, the point of the post is that even though there may be an ultimate style(for now), theres no possible way to find out which one it is, for a number fo reasons. The skill level, the fighters genetics, the rules, the terrain, the teacher, to something as seemingly unimportant as the persons diet. It is meaningless if a person is happy with what they study and is not looking to become the ultimate martial arts killing machine-(I for one am not). I once didn't totally buy into the all styles being created equal argument, but it 's up to the practitioner to fix the weaknesses so it's absurd in that sense, since all styles are always evolving anyway.

[friday]

just a few questions:

are we allowed to use claw strikes? such as tigers claw? ying jow pai claw techniques?
are we allowed to use pressure point strikes? throat, eye strikes etc?

just curious...but i believe these sorts of techniques aren't allowed in UFC etc.
dunno what impact this sort of thing would have...

[Yung Apprentice]

If someone is arguing that Kung Fu is inefective based on MMA matches. Another way to look at things, is boxers don't always come out victorious in these matches. But then again it's not like these boxers are the Roy Joneses and the Tysons ot Mayweatherses etc. Truth is Kung Fu has nothing to prove. It's been around for thousands of years. Bjj just sprang up. It has to prove itself. Which it has in many aspects. But to base your opinion on a couple of fighters, that aren't exactly the cream of the crop, well thats just ignorant. One should always have respect for ANY Ma, because they all have there strengths and weaknesses.

[CrushingFist]

archangel, in an earlier post you were arguing with earthdragon that the reason KF doesn't do ground fighting is their own fault and from their training methods, i agree, but you said something i don't agree with:

"Striking Only Venue

A) Striker is still able to utilize all of his weapons and not be limited at all

b) Grappler has lost his most important range and now has to play the strikers game, not because of the inadequacies of his art but because of the rules.

"

Part B, grappler has lost his most important range. Isn't that a fault of the grappler for not practicing standup fighting enough? that is the exactly same thing, one system, KF, doesn't practicing ground fighting enough, the other system, whatever grappling system, doesn't practice standup enough. It's a similar, but not exactly the same situation. anyways, i know it's not exactly the same because the standup guy still has his best moves while the grappler doesn't, but "Thats a result of his training and methods" . but anyways, KF style ppl are limited whent hey go into those tournaments too, because if you look at it, kung fu was meant to fight and kill/maim your oppenent at quickly as possible. it should be used only for self defense now-adays, but a lot of systems weren't back in THE DAYS. they can't use eye gouges, groin and throat shots, certain pressure point grabs, etc...and some styles like tiger, eagle, mantis, rely heavily on those.

and oh yah, all the "KF masters" who enter those fights, i'd never considered one of those guys a "master" but i do consider the gracies "masters of BJJ" so, your kinda pitting the crazy ppl out for blood, fame, personal gain, fun, against masters of grappling.

It's like having a bunch of BJJ fighters go into a boxing ring in thailand, they'll get the poop knocked out of them, and everyone will say it's crappy and of course thaiboxing is #1, but the BJJ fighters who would go fight thaiboxers in thailand are the "crazy, out for personal gain, blood, etc etc" ppl, while the thaiboxers are pros, who have mastered their art.

bottom line, looking at the KF in UFC matches doesn't do KF enough justice because they aren't really masters of their art.
anyone who thinks that, needs to go to chinatown and challege a few guys haha.

[Budokan]

Why don't you ever see a mouse come out on top in a cat fight? What's up with that? Is the mouse less than the cat? This should be investigated.

I'm also wondering why you never see a 42-year old man with a boiler winning a cross-country marathon or an iron man contest. Sounds like a conspiracy to me. That also should be investigated.

BoxerChik = c*nt stain = troll = Rolls. :rolleyes:

Go home, fella, and back to your mid-afternoon flogging of your meat whistle. Leave KFO to the adults.

[fightfan]

"are we allowed to use claw strikes? such as tigers claw? ying jow pai claw techniques?
are we allowed to use pressure point strikes? throat, eye strikes etc? "

All of those things have been attempted and while a couple were effective, none of them finished a fight.
To put it simply so you can get a better idea why; those techniques wont work on a standing opponent simply because theres no way in he11 hes going to sit there and take it without moving, hitting back, or worse for you, taking you down.
On the ground; anytime you extend your arm for any reason in any position your are either opening something up or begging for a arm lock. Some of those may work from a dominant position(top) but the beuty of the fight is the constant struggle of gaining that position on your opponent and if you dont know how, forget it.
Dont get me wrong, I like kung fu for what its worth, but there are just too many valid reasons to crosstrain. I dont have a hidden agenda like some that trash a style might have. I dont run a school and personally I wouldnt try to get my point across to you guys if I didnt think some of you guys were cool.
Good training to you all.

[Archangel]

Leonidas,

There is no such thing as an ultimate martial art, well I haven't seen it at least. But that is the reason that you crosstrain, so you can fill the holes that your art is missing.


Crushing Fist,

I agree that a grappler should learn striking, That is the very basis of MMA. That was not the issue I was debating with Earth, we were talking about the fairness of each competition to the respective fighters.

There again is a big difference here. When the striker is put into a MMA arena, all of his weapons are still there; he can use anything in his arsenal.

When a grappler is put in a striking only competition, all of his weapons are gone. He is placed in a disadvantage by the RULES.

Again, I really think it is extremely obvious here. An event which allows both striking and grappling is a much better indicator than an event which displays only one.

What if I suggested that a Kung Fu fighter enter a grappling only tournament? Does that answer your question?

[Leonidas]

All i can say is reread the post........

[Archangel]

I re-read both of them, what is "combat" wrestling

[red_fists]

Question:

Wasn't UFC started by the gracies??

I still want to see some BJJ or some of those tough nternet fighters enter the K1 Tournaments in Japan.

Hey Boxerchick, Ralek, Tinman, Budokan any of you game for the K1??

You talk the big talk, how about waddling the walk??

Seeya.

[Leonidas]

In a nutshell its Freestyle Wrestling with Brazilian "wrestling" or BJJ submission moves. Wrestling has its own set of submission moves. What you would call Catchwrestling or "hooking" but i don't think many people practice that any more. Some say it's superior to BJJ but i've seen neither in action so i'll just leave it at that.

[Ryu]

Uhhhhhh I don't think you meant to include Budokan in there with the trolls .... he's actually a very respectable poster that I admire on the board.

Ryu

[red_fists]

Ryu.

He was added as he is already on my "ignore " list.

Sorry, don't like his posting style.

[Knifefighter]

================================================
Wasn't UFC started by the gracies??
================================================

Rorion Gracie was the one of the originators of the UFC. The objective of the first UFC’s was to pit different fighting styles against each other in a one-on-one fight to determine which style was most effective in this scenario. These types of fights had been going on in Brazil for many years. The rules were not set up to favor either grapplers or strikers. The idea was to have as few rules as possible and still allow the fighters to walk away without a high probability of permanent injuries or death.

================================================
There is no way to 'prove' the 'my style is better than your style' issue,
because it is an absurd and meaningless problem. Anyone considering the performance
of others to justify their own methods is allready looking in the wrong place.
================================================

I disagree. I might look at the performance of practitioners of different styles to determine what might be of value to me. For instance, I wouldn’t want to take Karate to learn the intricacies of groundfighting (unless it was Fetal Fighting I wanted to learn), just as I wouldn’t take BJJ to learn to work knees and elbows in a clinch. I can watch the practitioners of different styles to determine which ones are better in the aspects that I want to learn.


The problem I have with styles that "have nothing to prove" is that they truly never do prove anything one way or the other, so you never know. Practitioners of styles that "have something to prove" are out there doing just that, all the time. A person only has to watch the countless examples of them to determine at what they are good. I know BJJ guys are great on the ground, Sambo has good leg locks, wrestlers are awesome with takedowns, Muay Thai guys are artists with knees and elbows in the clinch, and that boxers can throw and take a mean punch.

[Braden]

I didn't say styles were meaningless. I didn't say there's no way of investigating what other people are doing.

I said if you're trying to determine the value of what YOU are doing, there's only one place to look.

I'm not sure how a style can have something to prove.

[Crimson Phoenix]

You always prove something in regard to some paradigm...I believe usage of gong fu back in the days and usage of MMA in modern tournaments are two totally different paradigms...you could as well demonstrate that gong fu isn't effective in modern MMA tournaments, it wouldn't give you the right to claim that it is not effective in the streets or in ancient eastern battlefields...and vise versa...

[Yung Apprentice]

I couldn't have said it any better!

[Wongsifu]

AAAAAAHHHH this is where that smell is coming from that stank up the whole forum , theres a dead horse in here :mad:

[Tigerstyle]

"I was watching a few pride fights, and the Muay thai fighters couldn't even do roundhouse kicks correct. I mean,...c'mon, are they really representing the ideal of what type of fighter their system would produce? no."

A few guys in there are great Thai boxers. Maurice Smith and Pedro Rizzo come to mind. They have good strong technique, and have both won their fair share of MMA fights using standing strikes. They both also crosstrain in BJJ to be prepared in the event they end up on the ground.


"If i'm remembering correctly, competitors practicing 'Combat' Wrestling are having major success against Brazilian 'wrestlers'. Is that gonna become the new craze. I bet in a year wrestlers are gonna come out of nowhere claiming to practice the ultimate style."

That has already happened. Ken and Frank Shamrock, as well as many Japanese "pro" wrestlers have successfully used "Combat" Wrestling (submission wrestling?) since the early UFC and Pride days. Dan Severn and Mark Coleman are just "regular" wrestlers ;) , and both have done very well representing their style in these MMA events. Coleman was one of the pioneers of the "ground and pound", IMO one of the most successful strategies in MMA today.

There was a period a few years ago (at least in the UFC) where wrestling was the most dominant style (even winning more than BJJ), and at that time some people were making the claim that "wrestling" is the ultimate fighting style. Today, the popular opinion among MMA people seems to be that you must be prepared for all aspects/ranges (except eye gouges :p) when you step into the ring, rather than what style is best.


"I see that when a stand up stylist learn and perfect takedown defenses, he is at no disadvantage at all."

Old Jong's tha man! Igor Vochanchin (sp?) is a great example of Jong's statement in use :) .


"I see it like water skiing. You can have the best balance, streingth, technique, etc. to stay on the skiis, but you HAVE to know how to swim just in case you fall in the water."

:) (thumbs up icon here, but I don't know how to do it :p )

[fightfan]

"AAAAAAHHHH this is where that smell is coming from that stank up the whole forum , theres a dead horse in here "


The smell must be coming from your backside since your head is stuck WAY in it.

Now whos the troll on the forum?

[adren@line]

the thing with alot of kung fu kwoons is that they dont concentrate on conditioning and takign a hit. Thats the big differnce b/w kung fu school in the west and east: the west is extremely watered down.

these western schools concentrate on fancy forms and weapons, instead of body conditioning and taking a hit. They teach you how to avoid and to block, but not to absorb one. Thats why the kung fu guys always loose, it has nothingto do with there technique.

and i truly think that a 100% pure kung fu school is useless unless they cross train adn bring i nsome grappling.

but on the flipside
UFC and NHB rules prohibit groin kciks, biting, pinching, and eye gouging......all of which can be used to get out of most submissions and grappling techniques.

[EARTH DRAGON]

You said....................
these western schools concentrate on fancy forms and weapons, instead of body conditioning and taking a hit. They teach you how to avoid and to block, but not to absorb one. Thats why the kung fu guys always loose, it has nothingto do with there technique.

and i truly think that a 100% pure kung fu school is useless unless they cross train adn bring i nsome grappling.

WOW what a sweeping generalization of a assummingly close minded statment. How can you possibly say that?

Are you speaking from experience from visting all the kung fu schoolsl across america? or are you just making a general judgment from your obviously limited knowledge and experience of kung fu and the places that teach????????

[adren@line]

I am speaking from experience. I haev visted many kwoons from north carolina to southern california. Like you stated before i na previous thread, "why condition the body to take a hit when you should learn how to avoid one". That is the problem with kung fu schools.

In a fight, you WILL get hit. Life is not a kung fu movie where you can magically avoid all strikes with split second timing. This is why kung fu guys dont do good in NHB. They cant take hits. Now of course, there are exceptions, but I can guarantee you alot of your famed sifus are not nearly as conditioned as alot of NHB fighters.

to me there are 3 aspects of fighting:
-dishing out a hit
-taking one
-and avoiding one


now all of these cover a broad range of topics (dishing out: punches kicks, offensive), (taking one: physical conditioning, endurance) (avoiding: blocking, verbal and mental aspects) and so on.

kung fu lacks a whole lot of "taking a hit".

[Crimson Phoenix]

To me, the most memorable boxing champs were the ones who could swiftly sway and evade, not just stand there and take hits because they were big and strong...

[Yung Apprentice]

Once again I agree with Crimson.

[Yung Apprentice]

This is like comparing apples and oranges. How can one compare an art that is more geared for sport, to one that is not? They both have strengths, and weaknesses, let's just leave it at that.:)

[EARTH DRAGON]

So you are standing behind your statment that kung fu is useless unless you crosstrain?????????????

Tell me are you conditioned to take a hit?

if so where and with what?

thanks in adavanced for responding

[Archangel]

Crimson

These champions you talked about also had the body conditioning to take a hit. Do you think they could bob, weave and evade without ever getting hit? Of course not, they took their fair share of punishment as well. If they didn't have the body conditioning behind them, all of that fancy evasion tactics wouldn't mean much at all.

Earth

Everything is LIMITED without cross training, not useless. And that includes BJJ, wrestling, Thai, boxing etc.

[Mantis9]

I have a question. By cross training, do you mean go outside of your choosen art to study another? Or training with other stylists to become aware, comfortable, and/or challenged by their methods, approach, techniques, etc.?

I came into this thread late, so I would appreciate some clarification. Thank you.

[jjj]

>>By cross training, do you mean go outside of your choosen art to study another? Or training with other stylists to become aware, comfortable, and/or challenged by their methods, approach, techniques, etc.? <<

Both.

[Xebsball]

What makes you think kung fu cant take hits?
It may be true for some, but not all.

As far as sparring, some do it, some dont.
Originally all were ment to do it, but some got watered down.

Chinese Martial Arts have their own and very good ways of conditioning the body to hit as well as to take hits that is just as good as Muay Thai's for example.

Iron Palm, Iron Fist, Iron Shirt, Iron Forearm, Iron Body, Iron this, Iron that, Golden Bell, we could go on all day. There is even Iron Crotch.

You need to educate yourselve man.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Cross training? May I ask why? If you are talking about fighting for a living or just learning about other styles then I would agree.

However if you are speaking that one should cross train to make thier style more complete then I would say look for another style.

I dont really know why you suggest to cross train? unless of coarse you are doing what I mentioned above.
In your job do you seek out other professions and work part time just to make your job seem more complete? or see what you are missing?

Again the focul point has been on ones style not what ones style doesnt have. To go outside and try to fill in the gaps in what your style lacks would take 2 oir 3 lifetimes.

You cannot find the ultimate martial art that has complete aspects of each and every stich of every MA known to man.

I would suggest train in what is right for you learn and experience it in its entirety. It is the impatient practioners of today that expect instant results without taking the time to learn just part of thier system let alone all it has to offer.

[Ryu]

Different arts address different ranges differently. (say that 3 times fast)

It's true that one needs foundation and not merely throwing week's worth of different arts together to form something. But I agree and lean to the side of crosstraining because it will give you the best of each range of fighting. Look, when you fight it comes down to four things really. Punching, kicking, clinching, and wrestling. Those are how human beings fight each other.
Now you can have a strong foundation in one of them, but add others to suppliment your foundation. Judo doesn't teach boxing and kung fu (not any kind I know) addresses the ground like BJJ, wrestling, etc. I don't think there is any shame in training yourself to be able to deal with what's out there. And that doesn't mean saying "this is what you'd do to a grappler" and practice it with a non-grappler from your own art. It means going in with a grappler and feeling his own game. That's what I believe. Everyone knows I'm mostly a grappler at heart, but I'm working a lot on my boxing these days and other areas as well. One because I know I need to learn it to better myself...and two I also know I'm not the best grappler...so maybe I can have an ace up my sleeve through good crosstraining.

As far as kung fu people not being able to take hits....well King T practices with me at least every week and isn't afraid to put on the headgear and gloves and go vale tudo rules. But he still is a "kung fu" man to me...it's his lineage. We're both making our stuff more functional.

Ryu

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EARTH DRAGON

In your job do you seek out other professions and work part time just to make your job seem more complete? or see what you are missing?


No, but I am constantly incorporating theories, strategies, and techniques from other professions to make mine better. Many biographies of leaders and innovators give examples of them doing this type of thing in their professions.


Originally posted by EARTH DRAGON
Again the focul point has been on ones style not what ones style doesnt have. To go outside and try to fill in the gaps in what your style lacks would take 2 oir 3 lifetimes.

You cannot find the ultimate martial art that has complete aspects of each and every stich of every MA known to man.


Of course you will never learn everything in one lifetime. That doesn't mean you should close your eyes off and not try to learn as much as possible in the one lifetime that you do have.



Originally posted by EARTH DRAGON
I would suggest train in what is right for you learn and experience it in its entirety. It is the impatient practioners of today that expect instant results without taking the time to learn just part of thier system let alone all it has to offer.

Many of us believe that learning the strong points of different approaches to fighting will make us much better fighters than those who stick to just one approach. I don't think anyone is talking about getting instantaneous results as it takes years and years to take all these aspects and put them together in a well-rounded package that works for you.

[Braden]

Earth Dragon - I seem to remeber you commenting positively on several occasions concerning how the founder of your system incorporated [what he percieved to be] superior techniques from other styles to fill the holes in his system.

It just seems like you're contradicting that now.

[Merryprankster]

No style has all the BEST answers. There might be AN answer, but it might not be as good as what you find elsewhere. That's just the bottom line.

Now, the BJJ answer to a stand-up fighter might be to take them down and submit. The stand-up fighter might answer back by avoiding the takedown and firing close knees and elbows.

But what if the stand-up fighter is already on the ground, by happenstance? How is he or she going to get up? Not by using stand-up techniques on the ground. It won't work 90% of the time due to improper leverage and positioning. I don't like those odds. IF a style emphasizes standup fighting with little time on the ground, then you must get some mat time elsewhere to be well rounded. It's common sense. Believe me when I tell you that no primarily stand-up oriented art has the "right," answer to a 300 lb angry person who is happy to smother you with the blubber choke come hell or high water. There's a right way and a wrong way to move on the ground. One way will let you escape and leave, the other will get you injured, even by somebody who is not sure what is going on.

And any BJJer with an ounce of sense will tell you that takedown and submit is not always optimal, and that other stand-up strategies and techniques are necessary to be a well rounded martial artist.

And the MMA types aren't impatient... aren't looking for "insta-results." I'll remember the "insta-results" comment the next time I think about the people who train day in and out, 5-6 times a week and don't have their Black Belt in BJJ after a decade of training. And to box or wrestle at a "master" (ie, world class) level takes oh, what, only 20 years or so, in most cases, day in and day out.

Good is good, and the only way to get it is through time and effort, regardless of style.

Personally, if I had to pick, Shuai Chiao and BJJ :) But I can't pick, so it's Boxing, Wrestling, and BJJ :)

[jjj]

Cross training is good.

Why, you might ask?

Well, what if you run up against some army guy who wants to try some of those new grappling techniques he learned the other day in his Army Combative Manual? He may try to take you down, pass your non-existant guard and finish you from the mount. However, if you are cross-trained in wrestling you may have better success stopping the takedown attempt and therefore you will have a chance to use your kung fu! Also if you were cross trained in bjj you could just pull him into an armbar or triangle and impress your friends. Maybe you don't want to cripple or kill the guy with any leathal techniques, if you had crosstrained in boxing you could just knock him into next week.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[adren@line]

why do I take martial arts?

to learn how to fight and defend myself. it is one of my passions.


everyone should cross train to cover all aspects of fighting. Sticking with one art and keeping a closed mind is a bad idea. And for the person who asked, I have conditioned my self to take a hit by full contact boxing and sparring. I first started out with heavy boxing gloves, then worked my way down to sparring-style gloves. Sometimes I go 3/4 full contact without gloves. I also kick the heavy bag alot with my shin and knee. there are a bunch of other tricks I do to condition my-self.

I have trained in Kung Fu, but now I train in muay thai and jui-jitsu.

I have noticed time and time again the same thing with kung fu guys. They waste time on countless forms, instead of sparring and conditioning. I know a couple kf kwoons that dont even sprar. My old KF school only sparred once a week.

as far as iron palm, iron this, iron that, yes that is good conditioning, but how many kf guys actually practice these techniques. There are only a handfull of fully qualified iron palm sifus in the US (my old sifu being one of them..he did and article in inside kung fu).

[adren@line]

earthdragon:

buddy, you have to open your mind and get out of your kung-fu fantasy world. If you went up a against good mma with your mindset you wouldnt fare to good.

[Mantis9]

Okay,

I would say, of course, that the first reasonable thing to do when studying Kung Fu style is find a qualified instructor. After that I think you should stick to that style. The quality of your sifu will undoubtedly correct a lot of stereotypical problems kung fu guys and gals run into; conditioning, strenghthing, technical prowess, sparring, etc. become part of the routine while training under a well qualified teacher. Many times, I find that styles' reputation are not always smeared for their effectiveness, but because the practioners skills, physical talent, or understanding falls short.

Kung Fu is a deep well that takes time to learn and understand.

Cross training to fill in gaps in your style is a presumption by the practioner of the art that something is missing. I say devote time to on Kung Fu style. I am, personnally, always surprised what Praying Mantis keeps coming up with as my training continues.

Cross training to be aware of others, their styles, and their skills is good, but after an understanding of your style starts to take place. That way you will really understand your styles short comings.

[Yung Apprentice]

I for one like the idea of cross training, after one has a foundation in something. But there is no way on earth, anyone can be prepared against an attack from all MAs. One cannot learn every style out there. So If I take Kung Fu and Bjj, how will I defend against some kicking arts? What I'm getting at, is each Ma is different. Each one is going to bring to the table something that is going to be hard to defend against unless you take that art. So how can you cross train in all of them? Where does it stop? I like a recent headline for an article in Kung Fu Mag. Although it was mainly directed towards wing chuners, it said " Fight the person, not the style".

[Archangel]

Earth,

I think the others have answered your question for you.


Yung,

That is not what cross training is about and really it is not as difficult as you may think. You do not have to go through evey single martial art to find what you need. In order to become a complete fighter though you do however need to adress the three basic ranges of fighting. Find out what combination works for you and here's the crux - test it against opponents that are really resisting. You'll soon find that some martial arts deal with these ranges more practically than others.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Archangel, yes they have and quite well I might add.

adrenaline,
you should first know who you are talking to before you make sweeping assumtions.

I fought full contact for 4 1/2 years and in the ISKA circut and also 2 fights in grant st pavillion, china town San Francisco so please dont tell me my mind set is wrong and that I would not fare good in my kung fu fantasy world there" BUDDY". but my training in the last 10 years has put my far beyond the "I have to prove my style to the world BS" and now think that fighing is barbaric and now focus on medical doctorit qigong..... but if thats the level that your at then that fine but please dont attempt to insult someone just becuse they dont agree with you.. thats a little juvenial for me and I have no time for that. thanks E.D

[Yung Apprentice]

Archangel-

I know thats not what cross training is about, and I agree with your reply. But what I'm saying is every system has a weakness, or weaknesses.ex. I'm sure there are ground MAs out there that can or have found a weakness/weaknesses in Bjj. I'm sure there standing MAs that have found a weakness/weaknesses in boxing, or Karate ,or different styles of Kung Fu. I know if I train in both aspects of fighting, I will be a complete fighter, able to hold my own. But there still some weaknesses in both systems, and it would be an endless cycle to try to be rid of those weaknesses.


Here is another ex. Say I'm proficient in Mui Thai, and Bjj. I come up against a wrestler who is also proficent in boxing. He beats me standing. He also beats me on the ground. Because he is aware of the weaknesses in my systems. So should I jump on the wrestling/boxing wagon? Where would it end?

What I'm trying to say is (and even I'm not sure if I'd made that clear yet:) )
I took Mui Thai, because in Bjj it had a weakness in stand up fighting. Should I stop there? Should I keep on trying to address every single weakness? This is not how I feel, just a little something to think about.:)

[Ford Prefect]

Yung Apprentice,

According to the scenario you just gave, your weakness wouldn't be a system, but rather it would be not being able to exploit your opponents weaknesses. Him being just a boxer, you would be able to attack his legs with thai kicks and sneak an elbow or knee in if you clinch, etc etc. It's not that he didn't have a weakness; it's that you didn't take advantage of it (them). The fact remains, that if you don't have a solid understanding of strategies and techniques standing and on the ground, then you will have an easily exploitable weakness.

[Yung Apprentice]

I understand that, I just merely picked the first couple styles off the top of my head.What I was trying to point out, is what if your opponent is able to take advantage of your style, due to difference in theories and strategies. Obviously Bjj is not the same as wrestling, so Bjj will have some strategies or techs or whatever that wrestling dosen't have. And vice versa. I wasn't specifically talking about breaking them down. I just chose those, because they are obvious in there differences.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Yung Apprentice
Say I'm proficient in Mui Thai, and Bjj. I come up against a wrestler who is also proficent in boxing. He beats me standing. He also beats me on the ground. Because he is aware of the weaknesses in my systems. So should I jump on the wrestling/boxing wagon? Where would it end?

You don't have to jump on the wrestling "bandwagon", but it sure wouldn't hurt to work with the wrestlers and learn some of their strong points as you will probably not find any other style that is as proficient with takedowns. Nothing wrong with having a base style in which you do most of your training and branching out to other styles to learn some of the stuff they have to offer. Where does it end? It doesn't.

[Archangel]

Taking martial arts is not a guarantee. Eventually you will run into somebody who's a better fighter or just plain tougher than you are. Really, the only thing you can do is make sure that it wasn't your training that let you down. Have all your bases covered, know the ground, know how to strike, know how to wrestle, learn weapons and deadly strikes if you think you need to. What you don't want to happen is for someone to beat you because you were un-prepared for what he brought you.

[Ryu]

That's nicely put Archangel. Hopefully even the guy who can beat me will be in for the fight of his life to do it. :D

Ryu

[CrushingFist]

i think the most important thing is not neccessarily to "cross train" but to simply touch hands. Learn how to stop wresling, shoot, and grappling attacks, learning counters etc. You just need to be able to have experience fighting those kinds of ppl, so that you don't put yourself into a situation that you suck at getting out of. learn how to stop shoots and takedowns better so that you don't have to worry about getting on the ground, but it's good to touch hands with some other styles and BJJ etc, so that you can get experience, you odn't have to neccessarily learn a style or go to another school, you simply need to touch hands in a friendly but competitive manner.

I don't see a reason to train outside of the system as im never going to get anywhere to where i can say i've completed the system...so why train outside and get a little bit of this a little of that? it's like chop suey. But i do think i need to practice fighting wrestlers, JJ guys, etc etc...or else i'll hav a tough time fighting them the very first time.

[Yung Apprentice]

Great responses! Nicely put by all of you.:)