How do I toughen my knuckles?

[BoxerChick]

My friend who does kung fu said that there are secret chinese
ways to toughen the knuckles.
Any of you kung fuers use any of those methods?
Just curious...it would be nice if I could toughen my hands more.

[Stranger]

an old boxing trick is to soak your hands in brine

[EARTH DRAGON]

Hand conditioning can be damaging if done improperly so please becareful. I have seen arthritic, deformed and contusions in the fingers from this type of training.

But if you are careful and use the correct herbs you can succsefully strengthen and toughen the epdermis, tendons and musceles in the hands.

Striking the back of your hand in a bowl or wok of mung beans work the best for the beginning stages. Remember to exhale every time you strike.
You should not use force for the first couple of months but rather bring your hand up to shoulder level and let if drop naturally. This will give you the proper amount of time to allow the capilaries condition properly to prevent damage.

You should eventually work up to more dense substances. ie I went from water to beans to rice to sand to iron to stone slab. But I was iron palm training which is different.
You can also do knuckle pushups.

But remember alwas use dit dat jow beofre and after training, and always massage hands for a half an hour after conditioning.

[Kristoffer]

Hit stuff :D

[BiNKy]

I use to bleed all over the heavy bag and I got tired of it. Any callouses I made were torn off when I was hitting it. So I decided to toughen up my knuckles with sand paper. What I did was find some really fine grain sand paper and rub it on my knuckles until they bled just slightly and then I would stop when each knuckle was a little bit raw. I'd wait a day and then repeat the process. After a couple of weeks to a month I developed slight scar tissue which remains permanent. I haven't rubbed any sand paper on my knuckles for a long time and I still have the scar tissue. It doesn't look like some huge nasty scar (unfortunately cuz scars are neato) it is only noticeable if you touch it or look at it really closely.

[Jeff Liboiron]

Boxerchick, are you talking about your actual knuckles (the bone), or the skin on your knuckles

[BoxerChick]

Hi Jeff,
The skin on my knuckles!

[Water Dragon]

Just hit the heavy bag about 50 times without sap gloves at the end of each workout. Hit it lightly, no power. Make sure you massage your knuckles at the end.

That's pretty much the Chinese method as well. The big difference is they have medicines to apply to the hand to keep it soft.

[Jeff Liboiron]

after each workout, soak your hands in pickleing salt for about 20 min, take them out, but don't dry the tops of yor hands off, let the water air dry, and the salt will toughen your skin.

You could also use Tigerbalm, you can buy it in any MA store, or on the net.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Tiger blam????? what ? tiger balm is a topical ointment used to sooth sore muscles and achs and pains.

Boxer chik be careful what and who you ask on this forum. Some adivce should not be taken.

you cant sand your knuckles and do not use tiger balm , unless of coarse your hands hurt after heavy bag workouts.

I have been doing iron palm for 6 years so I suggest that you take heed to my advice but you be the judge.

[Kristoffer]

uhmm,, naah just hit stuff ;) :D

[Leonidas]

"uhmm, naah just hit stuff "

ROFL............Thats hilarious

[respectmankind]

I usually hit my hands on hard objects. Concrete (not at first), wood, metal, kids... all the same.

[jon]

Internal vs external
There is a big difference between what we could term internal and external iron hand conditioning.
Internal will use qigung and various forms of static posture training as well as its external elements. This type of training is very similar to what Earth Dragon has offered and for me personaly i would say he gives some VERY good advice from a purely external view point, which is all we have as the internal elements are to hard to discribe in text.
External training including simply punching hard objects untill your hands basicaly addapt to the excercise is a two edged sword.
On one hand [great pun huh] your hand will definately become harder as your body will be forced to addapt to the stress your placing on it. This can lead to caluses and oversized knuckles. The real kicker here is that after many years of this training you wont even be able to close your hand let alone make a fist.
Extrernal palm is commen in cma for this reason, external iron fist is one of the best weapons of cma but it comes at a massive cost. Most would prefer to condition there palms or take the extra time to do the internal training and avoid the injurys.

So yeah you can just punch hard things to make your fist hard but if you want to do it the right way and still be able to use your hands in 20-30 years time then take ED's advice and do it the right way.
The only real way to be safe and sure is to have a real qualified instructor. My Hung sifu used to do external iron fist, he doesnt like talking about it and has since stopped.
His hands are marked with the same white iron lumps that are common among some traditional hard style practioners. The main difference is he now understands where he went wrong and teaches his students the right ways.
Just to really confuse you...
Xing Yi proberly have some of the hardest hits of any style on the face of the earth, they dont do any fist external conditioning, try explaining that one:)

[KungFuGuy!]

I've been carrying around small flat rocks in my pockets since I was 13, and whenever I get a chance I would take it out, hold it in one hand, and punch it (not too hard, but hard enough to feel slight pain). Do this a few hundred times a day (seems like a lot, but it's not), and you'll notice a difference after a month. I'm at the point now where I can punch solid brick walls at full force and be perfectly fine.

[David Jamieson]

Probably easiest to begin by doing pushups on your knuckles. this will toughen the skin and flatten the cartilage slightly but will not damage your hands.

when beginning, distribute your weight into your first (index) and second (middle finger) knuckles. over time, distribute your weight across the whole flat, but focus into the index and middle fingers.

striking a -canvas- heavy bag works too and will add the benefit of increasing your wrist strength and will also develop your punching power. To get the knuckles toughened, strike straight in and don't glance your strikes.

Glancing is what will open the skin or cause surface callous.

when you do knuckle push ups steady, after about six months or so of regular work (sometimes less) you will notice a real difference in the thickness of the skin and it will be deeper than just the surface. It will also be less painful when you strike the surfaces that are now causing you pain.

peace

[Kristoffer]

That's nasty :D I mostly hit my concrete walls when in anger..

Take care

[fightfan]

Boxerchick, just take your rings off and let your knuckles drag on the ground naturally! :p
Just kidding sweety, I agree with Kung Lek on this one 100%. Just keep in mind that a girl with nasty azz knuckles is a real turn off to most guys. :eek:

[KungFuGuy!]

That's true. I'm sure you've all seen that episode of seinfeld where that girl had man hands. She was beautiful, sure, but her hands were those of a man! Gross.

[fightfan]

:D
That one was funny as he11, KFG!
lol

[Jeff Liboiron]

remember when she ripped up the lobster? that was classic :)

but getting back on topic, this girl i know boxes, and her hands look just fine.

[TenTigers]

Okay, to quote my master the immortal, Popeye the Sailor,
"That's all I can stands 'an I can't stands no more!" What the heck are you trying to toughen your knuckels for? What do you have to hit that this miniscule layer of callous will make a difference? To hit soft tissue, you use a hard object, to hit hard objects, use soft tissue is an old Kung-Fu adage. Do you need callous to hit someone in the solar plexus? When you nail someone in the jaw and make his head spin, is that callous going to make a difference? When you hit his teeth, callous will tear just as easy, trust me, my hands are scarred enough to know. Makiwara, and knuckle pushups were never developed to callous your knuckles, they were designed to develop proper alignment, strengthen the structure of your wrist and hand, strengthen tendon and ligament, and increase bone desity, callouses are a byproduct of the training, nothing more. Or, g'head, don't listen to me, and go out and make your hand into a foot.

[respectmankind]

Let me hit you, then let you hit yourself, and we will see. Nahhh, it helps with the pain abit, and yes it does help with the intensity of teh punch.

[YiLiQuan1]

There are tons of methods of Iron Palm/Fist. My teacher has provided info to senior students for at least 6 variations of so-called "external" methods, and we use as our primary training method one "internal" method.

Ultimately, if you look at the exercises, they are mostly the same. The difference is in the nature of the materials struck, the method of healing, and the extent of the use of qigong.

I have spent the last 3 years just walking down the hallway at work or at home (concrete walls - military construction material of choice!) smacking whatever wall was nearest. I started out at first just tapping about 10 - 15 times. When that got easier, I kept the same number of repetitions, but increased the power just a tad. Now, I can smack the wall nearly full power about 3 - 5 times without damage. Haven't done qigong or used medicine at all, and I have been just fine.

If you look at CMA vs. OMA/JMA or KMA, you will see that the only ones that spend any significant time worrying about medicine and qigong are the CMA folks. Ultimately it is like anything else - moderation and common sense. Don't sand your skin down, don't punch til you bleed, or anything else that demonstrates obvious structural damage. Even if you do a butt load of qigong, you are STILL smacking stuff that is way harder than your hand. It is how you go about the smacking that makes the process different.

Just my 2 yen. (and I don't have big scarred knuckles, either, though I do get dry skin on the points of contact... I recommend a good thick lotion, maybe even Vaseline, to moisturize the skin if that happens...)

[Asia]

I have spent the last 3 years just walking down the hallway at work or at home (concrete walls - military construction material of choice!) smacking whatever wall was nearest. I started out at first just tapping about 10 - 15 times. When that got easier, I kept the same number of repetitions, but increased the power just a tad. Now, I can smack the wall nearly full power about 3 - 5 times without damage. Haven't done qigong or used medicine at all, and I have been just fine.

I'd be care with this!!! Once in a old, now condemed (should have been condemed then) motorpool I put on an imprompto karate demo.:D There was a corner of one of the buildings that was cracking and falling away. There was a chunk that I had been kicking for weeks trying to break it off. I had loosen it up quite a bit. During Command Maitanence guys were asking me how I did at a tournament I went to that weekend. I told them I took first in sparring because of my TEKKEN (Iron Fist) I went to the wall and punched it. The chunck of concrete fell of. They were shocked my 1SG went ape telling me how I was going to pay for "Destruction of Gov't Property" and if I had broken my hand he would charge me with the same thing. I smiled and said, "But TOP your the one who said I should show my Kung Fu is the best!" (A running joke in the company!)

[respectmankind]

I would pay money to see teh look on their face when that concreate flew off in one strike.

[curtis]

TenTigers. Bravo!
COME ON GUYS!!! If you destroy your knuckles, you're not be able to use your hands later in life. Your hands should be your major tools, if you not careful you will not be able to use simple items like pencils or pens, (okay look at it this why. You will have to at least sign your Social Security checks.) If you ask me, you are all hitting wrong!
If your skin comes off when punching a heavybag your driving through too much (either that or you cannot hit the side of a barn.)
the ART OF STRIKEING should be just that, an art (control) HIT with a concussion strike not a driving strike. Shock damages humans a lot more brute force .

Think of it this way the human body is made to absorb and displace force (or direct energy). What do you think happens when you bruise? The body is using its skin, (tissues and skeletal structure,) to dissipate the damage, the body's natural self-defense system will kill off some of it tissue (by displacing the energy over the area) to save its internal organs, this attempt to absorb and displace energy before it can damage its internal. Is what we call bruising.

Okay for those who would disagree with me, I have a military question, which type of explosive is more damaging to infantry, a fragmentation grenade or a concussion grenade? (And for those bone heads out there, who want only kinetic power, this question isfor you!)
If you are going against armor, what is the best munitions to use? The answer is (HESH) high explosive squash head. ( This system does not go through the plate-shock wave from the detonation is transmitted through it. The shock wave bounces around inside the armor destroying what is inside the armor. It will destroy modern armor, where a HEAT (high explosive antitank ) weapon would not.)

Shock is the KEY to damage internal organs, and to cause a knockout!
The purpose most people study the martial art is, to better themselves," to prepare for the worst, so that it may never happen."
To destroy your body, in the hope to better yourself seems to be an oxymoron.
C.A.G.


P.S. DitDotJow will toughen your skin form abrasions,But it will not keep you from hurting your self. PLEASE dont distroy your hands! C.A.G.

[EARTH DRAGON]

For all those that have given advice please re-read MY post or TEN tigers for those are the only correct methods for real conditioning that have been given thus far.

Please do not take the advice from people that have little of no understanding of correct methodogly of proper hand conditioning....
like sanding your knuckles, hitting stuff, using tiger balm and the various other crazy things that people have said.

I do iron palm and my hands are very smooth not the least bit rough no calluoses, no scars, no nothing. WHY becuse true strikes are done with chi not with the strength of the conditioned hand. That has little to do with a ture strike the sooner you realize this the sooner you will understand that by conditioning, scarring disfigurementing and damging your hands you wil not hit any harder.......... it is not the surface that you strike but the method in which you strike that makes the differnce.......

When I break concrete it is not a hard strike with a steel hand but rather allowing the chi to penetrate the block with little force. If you slap or punch concrete you are simply using force and force is the most basic and primitive way of doing anything.. have you not heard not to use force on force?????? do you know why?
Do you understand now?

[Leonidas]

I heard the same thing about tiger balm. I read that you could make a fairly good Dit Da with some Tiger balm, some Vicks some Petroleum jelly, and some alchohol (Vodka, Rum etc...). Of course there are other ingredients that it won't work without but those are the main ones...................i'm pretty sure it had Vicks in it..........

[EARTH DRAGON]

WHAT??????NO you cannot, dit dat jow is a reciepe that calls for over 20 herbs like lion coin, sasaphriila seed, mung root, liqourish, and many more herbs that can only be found in a chinese herbology pharmacy and some that are illegal for import in the US that I will not devoldge at this time.

However you cannot make jow out of vaseline, vicks and any other home remdies that you find under your kitchen sink. The mesurements of the recipe calls for exact milligrams mesurements of each herb and this can only be done by a chinese OMD or herbologist. So for those of you who have heard of home made jows availble to the public are from the same sources that have swamp land in florida that is real cheap.

The recipe of true jow are kept secret to the general public and would not be disclosed over the internet for all to have. like the bottles you find online or in magazines for they are watered down versions with many herbs missing due to the rare availiblity of some herbs and the closley kept reciepe that some masters have.
While their is jow around I can assure that it is not made from anything other than chinese herbs. Most certainly not from tiger balm...............

[anton]

Hey Earth Dragon what do you think of the following recipe for 1 gallon of Dit Da Jow?:

Fu Zi--30 gm (1 oz. is 28 gm. For convenience, we say 30 gm)
Ban Xia--30 gm
Di Gu Pi--60 gm
Bai Bu--60 gm
Long Gu--30 gm (optional--this is heat-treated cow bone (dragon bone))
Tian Nan Xing--30 gm
Hong Hua--30 gm
She Chuang Zi--30 gm
Chuan Xiong--30 gm
Hua Jiao--15 gm
San Qi--15 gm
Xue Jie--30 gm
Ru Xiang--30 gm
Mo Yao--30 gm
Ding Xiang--30 gm
Dang Gui--30 gm
Da Huang--15 gm
Add separately after cooking:
Camphor/Borneol Crystals--15 gm
Menthol Crystals--15 gm

[Leonidas]

Oh yea, thats my mistake. I apologize for the mis-information. I totally butchered the article. It was from a Wing Chun site. You can make home made tiger balm from Vaseline, Vicks, Cayenne Pepper and dried Red Chilli Peppers or the ones already in a bottle

Put the Vaseline in a pot and melt it on the stove at low heat.
Add two or three tablespoons of Vicks--depending on how smelly and mentholly you want it--until that also is melted.
Grind up the red pepper until it's a powder, mix it with the cayenne pepper and add to the melted Vaseline.
While in its liquid state, repour it back into a jar and let cool.
I did not mention the quantities of either the cayenne pepper or the chilli pepper because that will be up to you based on the desired strength of your compound. If you use a small jar of Vaseline and you want it hot, use two tablespoons of both peppers finely ground and stirred into the compound. When it cools it will be somewhere between a pink to red color. You've just made Red Tiger Balm--congratulations!

There was also a Jow recipe and thats where the alchohol comes in. The ingredients are:

1 bottle of strong vodka, gin or Chinese rice wine
Artemesia (Liu ji nu) - 5g
Borneol (Bingpian) - 1g
Carthamus (Honghua) - 5g
Catechu (Ercha) - 8g
Cinnabar (Zhusha) - 5g
Cirsium (DaJi) - 1g
Dragon's Blood (Xuejie) - 30g
Mastic (Ruxiang) - 5g
Musk (Shexiang) - 1g
Myrrh (Moyao) - 5g
Pinellia (ShengBanXia) - 5g

I dont wanna seem like i'm taking credit for it and get sued so the cooking instructions are on the site:
http://www.wingchun.org/text/misc/jow.html

Its mainly for Wing Chun practitioners so i dont know if you people practicing other arts should use it. Your sifu probably knows a recipe if your even doing Iron Palm training.

[EARTH DRAGON]

leonidas,
thanks for clearing that up , I hope you did'nt think I was picking on you for I was not, but you have to realize that sometimes people do take advice from others on these boards and I didnt want someone to think they were making jow out of vaseline.

Anton, I cannot give you any advice on your receipe for the main reason that most of those herbs I do not reconize by the mandiarin names, perhapes you could list them in english and I would be able to give you a more accurate opinon. thanks

[anton]

this is the site that i got it from:
http://www.ancientway.com/Pages/MartialArtsFormulas.html

Apparently this is a combo of several common Dit Da Jow recipes minus the potentially dangerous heavy metals and endangered species (eg. musk deer)

another relevant link on the same site is (herbs used in various dit da jow recipes and other training formulas):
http://www.ancientway.com/Pages/MartialArtsHerbs.html

[EARTH DRAGON]

Well again I will say, no one is going to give thier reciepe over the internet, especially for free. As I said before I dont know the exact herbs in the mix for they are all in mandarin and most of them are not reconizable to me.

One thing I did not agree with is boiling the mixture. I do not boil it breaks down medicinal purposes and does not allow the herbs to ferment natually. I store my jow for over a year before its ready to use.

I also see that they strain the herbs after they cook them. I also do not agree with this. I always use the herbs for pumice and keep them in the jow for added potency.

I would not trust something I read of the internet but if you want take the list to chinatown and ask a herbologist and get his opinon.

On the internet I have seen the secret reciepe for famous amous cookies..... do you really think it is the real reciepe?????????

[David Jamieson]

hahahaha, well maybe the famous amos cookies aren't but the macey's cookies double fudge recipe is the real thing and they are delicious.

dit da jow recipes are generally handed from teacher to student within a school.

However, lately there has been the dissemination of many recipes over the internetr and free exchanges of knowledge are becoming more and more in number.

caveat emporum - you get what you paid for - really applies here.
Many do not give out their recipes of methods, but a good detective can figure a thing or two out.

all the dit you can but in stores, and that's quite a few brands, will have their ingredients clearly listed in the paper in the box or on the bottle itself.

I must have about twenty different decent jow recipes. I have quite a few TCM medical reference books, herb references etc, etc.

Dit Da Jow's are not that big of a secret anymore is what it comes down to. But the impetus to actually make a batch and the knowledge of how to do so is still not "common".

I mean think of it this way. You can drive a car, you can describe a car, and you can define many of the parts of a car and how they work in contect to the operation of the car in an overall sense. However - Can you "build" a car? from scratch? by yourself?

peace

[TigerJaw]

If I could just add a comment or perhaps it's request for info.

The only hand conditioning that I've ever done is press-up on my knuckles. I only do ten every other day and sometimes take a week or so off if they look like they're getting all calousy. After a bout a year, I can happily punch through an inch of pine but I think that this is more to do with the improovements to the structure of the hand, not any thickening of the skin.

I've noticed that I make a better fist now. My fist is tighter and the second knuckle of my index finger not longer preceeds the first so when i punch, the force only goes in a straight line from elbow to first two knuckles.

Have I done this right then? My hands seem fine to me, stronger and more supple. I sometimes worry about the changes to the shape of the fist, like what have I done to the first knuckle of my index finger that it seems to bend further than it did?

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Your a boxer right?

Just wrap your hands. Use 12 OZ Gloves when you work the bags or mits.

Protect those pretty hands.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Kung lek , I agree with you that more and more jow is becomming common. However we all know that potent recipes that old masters have been handed down will not bother to part with them especially over the internet for FREE!!!!!!!!

tiger jaw, It would be hard to tell this early as i would imagine you are fairly young. the noticable differnences will not be apparent till you are early to middle aged.

The problem with improper conditioning is you do damage before you realize it. after arthritis and deformating and contusions set in it is too late. You can have damaged hands in as little time as a year but not feel the effect till many years later.

daily herbs, massage and proper breathing are essential to proper health. Just as ear protection is to loud daily jobs this is aslo true with hand conditioning, but if you dont need your hands later on in life then go for it!

[Sharky]

kung lek man, some one beat you up pretty bad wit their ugly stick man, when did that happen?

THE FRATELLI's!