OT: This one is for rogue

[Stranger]

After getting nailed by a "daisy-cutter", Osama made his way to the pearly gates.

There, he is greeted by George Washington. "How dare you attack the nation I helped found!" yells Mr. Washington slapping Osama in the face.

Patrick Henry comes up from behind. "You wanted to end the Americans' liberty, so they gave you death!" Henry punches Osama in the nose.

James Madison comes up next, and says "This is why I allowed the Federal government to provide for the common defense!" He stomps the side of Osama's knee.

Osama is subject to similar beatings from John Randolph of Roanoke, James Monroe, and 65 other people who have the same love for liberty and America. As Osama writhes on the ground, Thomas Jefferson picks him up to hurl him back toward the gate where he is to be judged.

As Osama awaits his journey to his final very hot destination, he screams "This is not what I was promised!"

An angel replies "I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you. What the **** did you think I said?"

[Kristoffer]

oh wait,, Im not Rogue. anyway I think you'll like this http://www.apelsin.nu/classics/

good nite

[Stranger]

:D

[respectmankind]

Hmmm, these things disgust me as much as the other 'sides' ignorance

[rogue]

Thanks Stranger, score one for the Old Dominion! ;)

Respectmankind, we're not dealing with differing opinions over how to represent a free people or a war between haves and have nots. This whole thing is currently about the West versus a rather large group that would like to see us go away so they can run the show in their own distorted vision. This whole thing is about goverments (Iran, Iraq & Pakistan to name a few) fighting for power and using these intelligent but demented bast@ards to do their dirty work against anyone in their way. This war has been going on for years before 9/11 and will continue for years into the future.

One thing you should realize is that unlike dealing with Gov'ts like China or Saudi Arabia, co-existence with Islamic terrorists like bin Laden is not an option.

[red_fists]

This whole thing is currently about the West versus a rather large group that would like to see us go away so they can run the show in their own distorted vision.

May I respectfully point out that the West does NOT consist of the "US of A" alone, and that the "US of A" does NOT speak for the west. Nor was invited to speak on the behalf of the west regardless of what they think or imagine themselves to be.

On the other hand if the US keep this position up some now friendly nations might fall in with the Terrorists.

[respectmankind]

I was not commenting on anything like that rogue. Do not put words in my mouth.

[Stranger]

respectmankind,

Are you mad about the content of my original post?:confused:

[Shin]

May I respectfully point out that for all intents and purposes, the West, as it has so quaintly been termed, does indeed consist of the USA and western Europe, and that many of the policies that Europeans like to point, hoot and holler about are simply continuations of old French, British and German policies?

Examples...

The Gulf War:

A direct result of British creation of the Nation of Kuwait, formerly the 39th province of Iraq. The goal was to remove Iraq's access to both a deep sea port, and to the oil reserves, in the fear that Iraq would grow too powerful.

This support of British-French border creation can also be tagged as partly responsible for the attack on the US.

The Iran-Iraq War: A direct result of the creation of a border between these two nations by dividing a river in half, rather than the navigable channels of said river in half. The goal, to prevent either nation from effectively using said river to move goods to the gulf and international markets.

Kashmir: Created to cause conflict between the Muslims and Hindu. God save the Queen.

Libya and Chad: Created a disputed oil rich region. Thank France.

Namibia: Thank Germany and South Africa.

Israel: This is a personal pet peeve, because I hate US support for Israel. The creation of Israel was officially a UN action, and could not have taken place without UN support, but it hardly could have done so without the other European players as well. Even so, in 1922 it was the British who created the Predecessor to Israel, Palestine-Eretz-Israel.

I can go on and on. The roots of today's conflicts are hardly "American" at all.

Hell, just about the only conflict that European policies c. WWI didn't cause is the civil unrest in Rwanda and Burundi, and also Sri Lanka.

Personally, I think it's high time the US stopped acting the World Cop, and let other people deal with their own problems.

Oh, but wait, then we'd get blamed for not doing anything. Too bad. When China and India are the superpowers, we'll see how different things are.

[Crimson Phoenix]

ooops, I was about to mention Israël but you edited the post

On a side note, if the roots of modern conflict are hardly American at all, it is just due to the fact that before WWI the USA had no political power compared to the "old world".
Therefore, indeed, mosst of the bad roots that were seeded and are now being reaped cannot be attributed to them.
But you seem to forget quite fast that England has long been and is still a major pro-USA pole in Europe, and that many European actions or interests were therefore influenced by the USA through that gate.

[Shin]

Oh, one last thing. The official decision to create Israel as an independent homeland was voted on by the UN general assembly, not just the security council.

And Crimson, I would turn your last comment around. It is more that the US has always been pro-british, rather than the British being Pro-US.

Particularly in regards to the Middle East, when the Arab lands were being chopped up, the US was thought to be oil self sufficient. So decisions made in this regard were hardly serving perceived US interests.

[Crimson Phoenix]

The US being pro-british...huuhh...yeah, if you say so...and the oil thingie...why not, after all, when you're self-sufficient for money, you won't try to earn any more will you?
I wonder how it got so geopolitic somehow...

[Shin]

I'm sorry, are you trying to tell me that after WWI and II that the US is not pro-British? Or better yet, after the Falklands/Malvinas War?

That's the one where the US supported the Brits against Argentina despite having a mutual defense treaty with Argentina?

No, you are right, we aren't pro-British at all.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Ahhhh...my mommy DID warn me though.
"You cannot possibly have a balanced geopolitical discussion with someone who probably has underwears with star-spangled banners on them".
OK, let's drop it, I don't want to argue,we have different opinions and none of us will change them anyway. Historical facts have long been known not to be that objective, even in his young days Napoleon claimed that "History is a lie agreed upon".
You are right, you won.
Case closed

[Shin]

Crimson, you make a statement that the US is not pro-british, and do not support it at all. When confronted with contrary evidence you back down, but still provide no support to your position other than a childish comment.

Up until that point I thought we had a dialogue of sorts going, and I was enjoying it.

Now, I'm just disappointed.

[Crimson Phoenix]

I'm sorry I disapointed you, but that is what can happen when you expect too much of people.
I do not agree that US are pro-british in the sense that the relationship does not exist, I am just uncomfortable with the direction of the relationship.
To me the british are pro-US, not the contrary.
US has a far more important weight in other countries' politics than the reciprocal event. You cannot deny the US could influence a french or british decision in an overwhelming fashion compared to the eventuality of the contrary, ie the british or the french dictating their own interests on the US.

As for the childish comment I will take it as a compliment, as a follower of K. Lorentz'.
To me, childish comments often bear more truth than most obscure and seemingly educated ones.
That said, I might as well have underwears with blue white and red...I know no one who can be 100% objective when it comes to such sensitive topics especially

[Shin]

Currently, I will agree with the statement that the US wields an undue amount of influence.

I will further agree that currently, the US and the British have a very tight relationship, and that Britain is undoubtedly the closest ally of the US. That relationship works both ways though, and the US have supported the UK in circumstances where it would not have stood by another nation.

I sometimes wonder, particularly if I happen to be in London--though never aloud--, if the British would rather join the US and Canada, rather than the EU.

As for the US dictating responses to France or the UK, that may be true, but we can only wonder how the situation will change as the EU continues to evolve.

It is also clear that US power is on the wane, and India and China are on the rise. The next few years should be truly interesting, because for the first time since the 1600's, the axis of power will shift away from the West.

[JasBourne]

The US government may openly support the British government as it deems politically fit, but a little reality check about "America" and "Americans" as a whole, and how "pro-British" we are:

we don't really care.

It's sad but true. Citizens of the USA are arrogant and centric to the extreme. We ARE the world. We think the Brits are a bunch of silly twits, and we'll use them when we can, but care about them in the sense that their problems affect us? Hardly.

Evidence: Take a poll of Americans on the street anywhere in the USA and ask them to:

- Name a British television show: 48% say "Monty Python", 42% say "I don't know"
- Tell you who is currently Prime Minister - 94% clueless
- Ask them the first name of the Queen - an astounding 67% guess wrong
- Name 3 large cities in the UK - the vast majority can't get past London
- Name the countries that comprise the UK - 2% get it right.


By contrast, ask any Brit those questions, only of course make them apply to the USA, and you will see that Brits are much more deeply affected by America than America is by Britian.

One of the funniest lines on teevee lately was a sitcom character who wailed "I am NOT gay! I'M BRITISH!!!" :D

Britian is barely a blip on our collective consciousness radar. And that pretty much goes for most of the rest of the world, too. There is *US*, and there is the yokels out there, who all buy cokes and levis and chow down on Mickey D's, so who cares, we got their money and we all know money talks bullsh*t walks ;)


Personally, I think it is precisely this attitude, especially as reflected in our foreign policy, that gets folks torqued off enough at us to send in suicide bombers. If we showed more real respect we might not p!ss so many people off.

[Shin]

Now, why don't you go to britain and ask them to name an India TV show, who the Prime Minister of India is, three major cities in India, and two major political parties in India.

I've had this exact same argument in London you see. I'm sorry to say that not too many Brits can do the above. Not many americans can either, but the point is that you can find "ignorance" anywhere you choose to look.

[JasBourne]

Nope sorry doesn't wash. India might be big in the Middle East, but it doesn't register on western radar. I see no one trading balckmarket curry in the west, but take a load of Levi's over to New Delhi and count the money.

Face it - we're the big gorilla, and we're really oblivious to anyone else's perceptions. Sad, huh.

Just curious, are you Indian?

[Shin]

Doesn't wash? It might not show up large on the US radar, but it's there on the British one. It was the Crown Jewel of the British Empire, after all.

No, I'm not Indian. I travel quite a bit for my business though, and India is one of the places I go.

Levi's likely won't sell as well as you think. There is some anti-foreign backlash going on there these days. Not just western focused, I might add. Some extremists were even burning Valentine's cards in the streets

It is also a clear sign of India's rising power to see how there are still about 250K troops parked on the Pakistani border, despite Colin Powell's best efforts? And why did Pakistani at least attempt to concede some points to India by arresting militants with ties to Kashmir? And why is India still pushing the point?

Because they are the coming Gorilla.

One of the engineers I worked with put the possibility of a war with pakistan like this:

"We both have around 12 Nukes. They have 130 Million or so People. We have 850 Million. I think we can kill everyone in pakistan and still have around 600 Million left over."

[JasBourne]

Just wondered.

I was trying to figure out how you were backing up this statement: "It is also clear that US power is on the wane, and India and China are on the rise. The next few years should be truly interesting, because for the first time since the 1600's, the axis of power will shift away from the West."

Since I agree that those 2 countries are finally coming somewhat out of the dark ages, and are most certainly being treated as largely untapped emerging markets by the west (right now I have 2 seperate marketing initiatives running for my company, each targeting those two countries specifically), but I disagree that they are anywhere near being able to bring any kind of significant economical force to bear in the next 25 years, how you figure the "axis of power will shift away from the West".

Money talks, and we gots the money. When China and India start consuming 25% of all the world's resources each, controlling the majority of all industries, and being the language of business, then maybe we can talk about power shifts.

"Where would you like to go today, sahib?" :D

PS Big deal, they have 12 nukes. We have hundreds of thousands of nukes. Nukes are no longer the coin of the realm, otherwise Colin Powell would be listened to better ;)

[KC Elbows]

Yes, but their nukes might actually get used.

[rogue]

As far as the US sticking it's nose in the affairs of other countries that's true, but we're not alone. It's called looking after your self interests and well-being.

Question, who in 1995 tried to have Pres. Mubarak of Egypt killed in Ethiopia so that Egypt would be destabilized?

What gets me about Europeans is that they'd still rather flap their gums while the Panzers are rolling across their borders. England, France, and Switzleland all contain safe havens for these state sponsored Islamic terrorists. Stop pondering how arrogant the US is and start looking at what's really going on in the world.

BTW, Europeans aren't exactly loved too much either in certain parts of the world. You're just not seen as much of a threat to the badguys as we are. :D

[JasBourne]

Yes, but their nukes might actually get used.

A very valid concern, but that won't make them a "world power", it will make them a world pariah, and prompt massive united retaliation by the rest of the world.

Let's face it, if either Pakistan or India (or anyone else) is stupid enough to use a nuke, how will the world react? Lookit Sept 11, and that was just a couple of planeloads of jetfuel, for chrissake. The west went apesh*t and took over an entire country. You nuke someone, and the world is gonna squash you like a bug. We'll start by pointing every one of our gazillions of warheads up your butt, followed by complete economic cutoff. We hold a gun to your temple and make you starve to death.

No, nukes are no longer viable that way. Economic power is where its at. Who actually "rules" today? Most of the real power is in the hands of the multinationals, not the governments. But that's another discussion altogether ;)

[Ryu]

Well.......this will be a long thread.

Ryu

[Sharky]

indeed.

i want to post, but i ain't gonna.

[KC Elbows]

I agree, it is unlikely that they will be used. However, if India or Pakistan went that route, there is a good possibility that sanctions might come a little late, i.e. after the action was all over. In that case, one country would be without its rival, and thus a tool the English put in place to limit their political power(splitting India into India and Pakistan) would be gone. In the long run, the survivor would suffer a brief time of sanctions, and later would stand the chance to hold more power than before due to the absence of a rival. All of this is, of course, subject to the fact that I'm talking completely out of my arse.

The problem with economic power is that it requires a military option "just in case". Once we're talking about many groups in every third world country, can we actually assert ourselves militarily without becoming mired in countless little wars that cost us billions and cost the guerillas little? I suppose this whole "triumverate of terror" that junior bush is touting is sort of the testing ground for this. Can we corner our enemies and stop them forever, or will there always be another base of operations, another region just needy enough and just antagonistic enough towards the US to host such guerillas.

I tend to think that we will have somewhat less power in the future than what we have become accustomed to. In order to deny enemies access to countries they can operate from, we'll have to improve a lot of relations with other countries, and that'll mean money that we have earmarked for ourselves will have to go to others, and we'll have less.

I really wish my arse would shut up. That's what kung pao chicken can do sometimes.

[JasBourne]

All of this is, of course, subject to the fact that I'm talking completely out of my arse.

Touche, my friend! Me too. I guess we won't really know anything unless/until it happens. I mean, who would have thought that the 9/11 stuff would provoke the kind of reaction it did?

peace :D

[KC Elbows]

Jas,
I believe the correct spelling would tush, not touche. Oh wait, my mistake. Once I get talking about arses, that's all I can think about.:D

Yeah, its a crazy time. I wonder who will be the world power in a hundred years. Given a choice, I'd go the England route: world power for a long time, then take a back seat and go for stability for a century or two. I often wonder how the US will do, whether our enemies will pick us apart a la Rome, or if we'll manage to become "respectable".

[JasBourne]

Really? I always figured Canada would quietly step in and take over ...

[KC Elbows]

Hey, I didn't think of that!

Technically, we wouldn't have to import hockey players anymore. Plus, we'd have the honor of being known as "The Rude Province".:D

[respectmankind]

I am sorry for my out burst, I was not mad about your post. These past couple of months, I am easy to set off because of alot of racist and anti-Islamic Bull**** I hear. Sorry, I understand what you were posting now, please forgive my outburst.

[rogue]

That's OK RM, I get tired of the anti-American BS and people putting Islam upon a pedastal as somekind of poster child for tolerence. Would Catholics be cut the same slack if they started harboring extremly militant branches of the IRA and coming up with excuses for wholesale murder caused by them? I'm sure they would. ;)

Also turns out that right in my backyard is a group that is involved with terrorist organizations. Go figure...

To my European friends,
For centuries Europe has stuck it's nose into the business of every continent on earth. It's only in very recent history that France, Belgium and even my favorite cousins across the lake England(at least they usually left places better than when they found them), have lost their colonies in Asia, the Middle East and Africa. So I say to you, before you start criticizing the US for being involved on the world stage, you should really look at what legacy your countries have left across the third world.

[rogue]

Man, who whhizzed in my Special K Red Berries this morning?:D

It must be a Bahama Mama deficientcy.

KC, that "Rude Province" remark was hysterical!

[respectmankind]

A) Islam cut slack my ass. How many prejudice and ignorant slurs/jokes I heard, even in one day. When we look back in history, was it a war of the Japans major religion when they bombed Pearl Harbor? I am sure back then there was ignorant bs being flung around, how because they were not Christian they were lost. B) Islam being held as a postor child? Where in the flying **** did you get that? When a Christian goes ape **** because of his religious beliefs, is it stated on the news "A Christian extremest went ape **** on everyone.."? Yet when reffering to Islam it is always done so. Yes there have been specials on TV so Americans can better understand "THE FASTES GROWING RELIGION IN AMERICA", but do you think it is so people can sympothise with Osama, or so no more Mosques get shot at. No more men who had NOTHING to do with 9/11 get killed. On a less specidec level, why do you think on NBC they have public service announcments? "Even jokes made from hate teach hate." Think about that statement (this is not in refference to the joke this thread started on) It is not there for you to lose a sense of humor, it is there for understanding, so YOU can direct you emotions in the proper direction. I am not Islamic mind you, but I do believe in the revolation of Muhommad, and if you ever read the Quran outside the 'Western Cultural Perception' you will understand that in no way are these acts of the true Faith of Islam.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Indeed, many colonialist countries in Europe, specially France and the UK, did a lot of shi@t in the world due to their screwed up foreign politics.
I know our hands are stained with blood and mud, but it's really bugging to see so many americans act like they are all clean, and act all righteous and hypocrit sometimes. I'm not directing that comment to anyone here, it's rather a personal opinion, and I hope you won't feel offended by it.
Truth to me is that indeed America barely cares about the rest of the world because you are so powerful in these modern times and think you can step on anyone's feet and get away with it, like it were some kind of right given by your dominant position on the world's chessboard. But it doesn't work like that, as we in Europe realized in the past, and are still paying the consequences now (which, for me, is just right, we are finally being handed the bill for all the shi@t we did abroad, and we deserve it).
Please, my US friends, do not feel offended by what I have just said, it's just a personal opinion, and I am as harsh if not more on the actions of my own country. After all, lucidity goes both ways.

On a side note, I often wondered...what if suddenly in the world lots of people were starting to bomb and kill in the name if buddha, and some of them would do massive killings in organized operations...pretty unlikely, but just imagine the diabolization and paranoïa that would stem in media and collective consciousness...although I know quite a good deal about Islam, from some ex, what I was wondering is why Islam is specifically inclined to such radical interpretations...after all, the original God of the jews was dubbed "Sabbaoth", leader of the armies, and many many violent episodes occur in the old testament..."kill them all , let God sort His' out".
So why Islam particularly, and not Hebraism or Christianism or even Taoism? (Buddhism can be left aside on the sole fact that buddha never claimd to be anything more than just a man, so in that regard it couldn't be a religion).

[JasBourne]

Truth to me is that indeed America barely cares about the rest of the world because you are so powerful in these modern times and think you can step on anyone's feet and get away with it, like it were some kind of right given by your dominant position on the world's chessboard.

No offense taken. It's called "the doctrine of manifest destiny", and it's only fun if you're the one claiming it. ;)

Yep, we better be careful, manifest destiny will run its course in another 50 or 60 years. I won't care, I'll have become either exceedingly old and retired to my fabulously appointed villa or I'll be dead. :)

The main reason Christians have hated Muslims through the ages (see: Crusades, etc) is because Muslims (at least the guys) get a way better deal when they croak. Consider the envy engendered by "72 vestal virgins in paradise tagged for your use only", versus "sing praises to the lord" because you are above anything as base as frolicking with a load of babes. No contest for 99.99% of the fellas, who wants to spend eternity rapping to elevator harp music.

:D

[Budokan]

Jas--
I LOVE that "granny" quote you have in your profile. It's hilarious!:D

[JasBourne]

heeheehee thanks Granny is my shero

I wonder how many people here know who WJ Bryan was?

[Stranger]

The joke in the original post was at the expense of OBL.
I do not consider it inappropriate to make jokes at his expense.

Nobody else was targetted by the humor, so we should not make this an Islam vs. Christianity debate or a Europen colonialism vs. America's global policing debate.

It was a little Virginian humor (apparently very little). :rolleyes:


REMOVED LAST PARAGRAPH: Misunderstanding of earlier post

[respectmankind]

Stranger, you misunderstood what I said about PEARL HARBOR (nothing to do with A-Bomb). I was saying, that thewar was not on their race or their chosen religion (majority) although many people back then still held it as such. Example, typical southern American preacher who thinks he knows jack decides to tell everyone this owuldn't be happening if everyone was Christian.

[Stranger]

my bad :o

[red5angel]

For Fuk sake people, take a look around you for a second, no one country is the cause of all our wordly problems.
You non- americans want to point the finger at us, go right ahead, doesnt change the fact that our economy is the biggest driving force in the world, and that we dominate and drive western culture, but it sounds vagualy familiar, like maybe the position of Rome as it came to power, or Egypt before them. Or how about Britain just a few hundred years ago?
Get a life if you think everything we do as americans is because we are only thinking of ourselves while everyone else is thinking of the rest of the world, Bull. All those europeans countries do a nice job of thinking about themselves as well, but because the eye of the world is on us, our dirty laundry is aired.
We all have our opinions, I am an american, served in eth military., my mother is an English citizen from a Scottish Family. My father is Cherokee indian all the way. I love america, its why I am here. I love Europe, wonderful place, full of culture in such a plethora across such a small land. I love Asia, warm, beautifully ancient cultures. I love africa, exotic plant life, the seat of human history.
I may not like some of the things we do or some of the things 'they' do, but thats life. Arguing about it is pointless and if you can speak up enough to make someone else seem small for thier opinion, then you yourself have chosen to be drug to thier level. For god sake think for yourself, keep your eyes and your minds open, and stop playing he said she said!!!!!! Fuk it ****es me off when these threads get going!!!! Osama Ben Laden is a bad man, that does not make Muslims bad people. We attacked and disposed of an organization that was responsible for oppression, but it does not preclude us from being a part of our own kind of repression.
Dont Tell me America doesnt care? What is America but people? Do we not have the peace corp? I myself did 2 years in a mexican orphanage and 8 months in Guatemala helping build a civilian airfield for food and medical relief. Do UN peace keeping forces practically rely on our military and humanitarian might to depose oppressive regimes?

And Red_Fist, you make another dumb ass statement like that
and I will persoanlly buy you the plane ticket and pay for the taxi cab to bring you directly to my front door so I can give you a taste of American 'hospitality', Chinese style!

[red_fists]

Originally posted by red5angel
And Red_Fist, you make another dumb ass statement like that
and I will persoanlly buy you the plane ticket and pay for the taxi cab to bring you directly to my front door so I can give you a taste of American 'hospitality', Chinese style!
Hey red5angel.

You want a piece of me, than YOU come over here.
And I will show you the USA from an outsider point of view. And maybe you will see things a bit different after that.

Don't worry no fight, just a showing of things that you DON'T seem to be aware off.

So if you don't like my Opinion don't read my Posts. It is a free society after all.

Finally I would like to point out that it was YOUR Preisdent that made the following statement:
" If you are not with us, you are against us"
meaning "that we are considered supporting the Terrorists".

And that is an ultimatum to BULLY Countries into supporting them.
So excuse ME and many other people that we are a tad ****ed off.

[Shin]

And, it being a free society, you decided to judge every american by the statement of one of us?

Hey, that's great.

Let's see, you mentioned you were from Austria once right?

How would you feel if I decided to judge all Austrians by the action of one?

[red_fists]

Shin.

The US President is the elected leader, speaking and acting on behalf of the US Citizens that elected him.

That is the deal.

If you didn't want him or agree with him and his actions, why did you elect him in the 1st palce.

BTW, if you want to judge my country people by Hitler go ahead. Atleast it guess that is what you were refering to.

Interestingly enough we bassicaly kicked him out. :D

[Shin]

Actually, I was referring to Joerg Haider.

And, as you point out, He was elected. You may have also noticed the popular vote was for Gore. You may further want to consider that just because Bush did become president, not every American decided to throw their hands up and decide he was soooo great. Come on. Stop with the silly generalization. If you meet an American on the street, do you carry all that baggage with you?

[red_fists]

Shin.

Yep, we elected Joerg Haider, but he was not re-elected. ;)

Sorry, since we can't quiz every single American citizen in Person we have to generalize depending on what your US President is saying.

Same goes for you, when you look at other countries.

Of course we know that not all US Citizens agree with Bush, but the fact still remains he speaks on behalf of the majority.

And if the majority disagrees with him, we would also hear it in the news.
As he most probably would loose his Job, or be getting some serious riots/demonstrations/opposition.
Anyhuh, enough of the Politics.

[Shin]

Hmm. I didn't read anything about massive anti-Haider demonstrations, and I was following the Austrian Press at the time.

If you want to use him not being re-elected as a defense, then you should wait 4 years before jumping up and down about Bush.

As for Rallies and demonstrations against Bush, maybe you missed the news around the Elections. There were indeed massive anti-bush rallies. Fortunately, the American Governmental system is good enough that we don't feel the need to toss it out everytime it hits a pothole, and resort to a coup de'tat as a method of selecting our leadership.

The majority of people also tend to realize that division in a time of crisis is not such a time to go around trying to get the head of the executive branch tossed.

In some ways I think its sad, because in any other situation there would be a massive investigation of Bush's ties to Enron. Then again other popular american president's have had some questionable events and relationships, like Kennedy and both Roosevelts.

Red,

You are right, enough of the politics. Because I spend so much time travelling, it just burns my britches everytime some one starts telling me what I think, because of what they saw on TV. I use my brain when I deal with people from other cultures, which I do on a continuous basis, and I hold out the hope that other people will do so as well.

I enjoy reading your posts, and I suppose I felt a bit saddened. I had hoped to meet with you next time I was through Tokyo, and suddenly I was faced with dealing with being judged before I've ever been met. It's happened before, and it's happened for a lot of different reasons, but it's never enjoyable.

[rogue]

When we look back in history, was it a war of the Japans major religion when they bombed Pearl Harbor?

Respectmankind,
This whole war on terrorism is because of Islam, and that's because one set of the combatants has framed it in that way, and it aint the US. Now I know the majority of Moslems are not actual combatants in this, but very close to all of the "terrorists" are Moslem and so are their major supporters, Iran(A-number-1 badguy), Iraq(at least when it suits Sadaam), Sudan, Pakistan, Syria, and even Saudi Arabia. Racially this crosses all lines between white(Chechens), black(Eastern African states), Asian(China, Pakistan) and yes even Arab, so the argument that this is racist is just wrong.

Now one brilliant move that these "terrorists" groups do is mix actual charity work with the terrorism. So Joe Moslem Goodguy sends a donation to many Moslem relief funds, and he's also either knowingly or unwittingly sending money to Uncle Usamas Camps for Bored Middleclass Moslem Youth. So for us (the US) to cut some of the money supply to the badguys we also have to cut money going to non-combatants. Guess who looks bad?

So sadly for the many decent Moslems out there this whole mess whirles around their religion. One thing they can do is join the fight and I hope they do.

I'll postpone running down the list of countries where Moslems have driven off Christians(Lebanon) or enslaved them(Sudan). That would just be insensitive.

[red_fists]

Shin.

Personally, I don't know which Austrian Newspaper you read, but I read the "Kronen Zeitung" and there reports of PLENTY of Demonstrations.

If you want I can dig for some articles, Haider was opposed from the word go.
Weekly demonstrations outside the Parlament in Wien,etc.

As for me having confidence in the US Goverment, maybe not so much after the article I just read online:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&u=/ap/20020219/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/pentagon_media_5

Truly, hope it is not true.

Anyhuh give me a shout once you are over here in Tokyo, and maybe we can train together. I am a lot more relaxed after a few pints. ;)

Guarantee no politics, only MA talk. ;)

[rogue]

A couple of "news" articles from the Shia News for a tiny look at their view point.

Shia (Them There Shiite fellows ) News (http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000149.php)

An interesting article (http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/islam/0000066.php)

PS When he talks about the Turks don't forget that the Ottoman Empire extended across most of the Middle East. It was broken up after a couple(OK a bunch) of hundred years by World War I.

[red_fists]

Rogue.

May I make a comment about Japan and the war.

The Japanese Emperor was considerd a child of the Gods, and thus was considered similar to a deity.

The reason was that the average Japanese, never saw or heard the Emperor in person and thus believed him to be something divine.

At the end of WWII, when the Emperor made his 1st public announcement via radio (to declare the surrender of Japan) it shocked the Japanese and their beliefs as their heavenly ruler turned out to be "human" after all.

[red_fists]

Shin.

Just to show that I amnot making up facts to proove my point here is an article from the BBC on one of the "Anti-haider" protests in Vienna.

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_648000/648591.stm)

And 150.000 ~ 250,000 out of 8 Million Citizen is quiet a large amount.

Hope to meet you in Person.

[rogue]

Good point about Japan RF.

WTC and Terrorism article (Shia News) (http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000140.php)

[David Jamieson]

all ideologies, political, religious or otherwise have their spectrums with right ad left wings and extremes such as those who tolerate too much (hippy liberal tree hugging granola chewer vegetarian pet saver types) and those who tolerate very little (fascist, manical, iron fist, fear of change types).

All these ideologies have had within them human representatives who "preach" the word.
Some of these people have great charisma and attract legions of followers regardless of the message.

That's the human condition for you. Currently, it is difficult for your average american or westerner for that matter to really comprehend where the arab terrorist mindset is coming from. At our core we truly just do not understand how these factions feel because we prescribe to an utterly and totally different mindset.

when violence is used to solve conflict, it invariably leads to continued conflict. This conflict will not end until there is a new leader with a different perspective to sell his side and an agreement with the former enemy to hold a truce without giving quarter.

That's human nature. The problems of the world today are really no different than they have always been, except for the proliferation of wmd stockpiles that are amassing amongst the "tribes" that have the contests with each other.

Hopefully, as a species we can change, we need to soon or we will simply knock ourselves right out of existance, and likely it will e sooner than later.

Hate to be all doom and gloom, but once the gun was invented, it was used a lot.

The same holds true for all weapons and there are some pretty scary weapons floating around the world right now. More than enough to make us all dust in a flash.

peace

[respectmankind]

All the people that died in the crusades, and many abortion clinic bombings are because of Christianity then. Bull ****ing ****, it is because of immoral, ignorant ****s that take one piece of holy scripture a turn it into universal fact without fully understand. Also, many of the terrorists are uneducated. Don't give me the **** that they study the Quran. Yes they do, but the sheep in churches 'study' the Bible as well and yet a Babtist is going to hell while a Luthern isn't.

[respectmankind]

I am sure every single one of those abortion clinic bombers loved to yell Amen (I am trough with you) at church and read the holy Bible.

[Shin]

Red, thanks for the article. I was actually aware of the protests, but I was just turning things around since you didn't seem to be aware of the anti-bush protests. I was trying for mild sarcasm, but I guess it didn't come across. Probably for the best. :)

I'd love to meet up with you. I'll let you know next time in that neck of the woods.

I'm not really a drinking kind of guy, but I'll sit around and watch you down some. I may be convinced to have a ginger ale or something. I find if I drink it tends to become a compulsive two-three day event. And the hangover really interferes with practice.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Shin
Red, thanks for the article. I was actually aware of the protests, but I was just turning things around since you didn't seem to be aware of the anti-bush protests. I was trying for mild sarcasm, but I guess it didn't come across. Probably for the best.

I didn't know about Anti-Bush by Americans protests as such, Iam aware of the anti-WTO, anti-globalization protests, and like.

Didn't know that you had protests that are pure anti-bush.

Ginger-Ale, naah we get you some nice Cider or Two-Dogs for starters, :)
I will make sure that you can meet some other fellow Ma when you are over.
Some post on this board, we are a mixed bunch over here from all over the globe and plenty of styles.

Personally, I would have prefered Gore myself.

[rogue]

All the people that died in the crusades, and many abortion clinic bombings are because of Christianity then. Bull ****ing ****, it is because of immoral, ignorant ****s that take one piece of holy scripture a turn it into universal fact without fully understand. Also, many of the terrorists are uneducated. Don't give me the **** that they study the Quran. Yes they do, but the sheep in churches 'study' the Bible as well and yet a Babtist is going to hell while a Luthern isn't.



In the sense that the Church looked well upon the Crusades then yes, but unless the Church and Christians in general have gotten behind someone bombing a clinic I’d have to say no. You also use the words immoral and ignorant when referring to the terrorists, how so? In their framework of the world they are very moral, devout people, maybe not ours, but certainly in theirs. They are also knowledgeable about what they are doing and why. The WTC terrorists blended in with American society and successfully pulled off a major operation. If anything they underestimated how quickly we could alert and ground our planes, but then again we by-passed the usual pilots discretion that the FAA usually goes by. Don’t think these thugs are stupid or confuse them with the canon fodder. Many of these terrorists are well educated and traveled, and make up an elite group of operators. You’ll find doctors, lawyers, engineers, chemists, owners of legitimate corporations and the always-available students amongst their ranks. These aren’t the old style hijackers and Munich like terrorists, these are well funded, have excellent planning and even have ties to the intelligence agencies of several countries.

BTW, it’s the Lutherans who are going to hell not the Baptists :D

[respectmankind]

Rogue, conversation us over, we have had too many misunderstandings already.

[rogue]

So you're tapping out? Whoo hoo!!! I submitted Respectmankind!!! :D

Now to work on chi blasting some chickens!!!

Really though, no hard feelings R, but I'd rather try to see where we're misunderstanding each other. Hopefully you don't think I blame all moslems for this, but the people carrying out this jihad are doing it for their version of Islam.

[respectmankind]

Now I feel like an idiot Rogue. I knew you didn't blame all Moslems, but thought that you were emplying that it was Islams fault. Sorry about misunderstanding your stand.

[rogue]

Sorry R, but the resident idiot position is already filled by Rolls, and I
have first crack at it if he concedes the throne. ;) Believe it or not I've
had a lot of personal contact and some friendships with Moslems since about
1980. We've babysat each others kids and even broke bread together. I even
bought a new grill for my BBQ since I've cooked pork sausage on the old one
so we could have them over for a cookout. It was interesting when my liberal
moslem Iranian friends were over at the same time as my more orthodox
Pakistani Sunni neighbors were.

No, this is a power grab by Islamists, not Islam itself. Check out the
articles I posted from the Shia News and note how one of the writers talks
about Allah passing the torch from the Arabs to the Turks to the current
favorite Iran. Guess which branch of Islam Iran follows. There's a power play
going on between the Shiites, well really Iran, and the Wahabis(sp?) for
control of the gulf region, which includes east Africa on one side and the
gulf states on the other, and the hearts and minds of Joe Moslem.
Unfortunatly for them certain Western countries are in their way but they're
more than happy to co-operate on trying to remove us. My view is that Iran is
trying to play both sides against each other (West & various "Terrorists")
and be last man standing in the region.

My opinion of Islam is simple, it may be great for it's followers spiritual
needs but it makes for terrible gov't.

Here's a new link to the charities/terrorism connection

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,46167,00.html