By my lying eyes [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Chris99

04-01-2002, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by SifuLMDII
Hello Everyone!

Chi sao and other energy/sensitivity drills are extremely important in developing your trapping hand skills! Without the energy/sensitivity developed from chi sao and other sensitivity drills, your trapping will be only mechanics! In a real fight situation, mechanics only will not get it, if you know what I mean! And yes, if you are adequately training in trapping hands, it definitely works in real fight situations!

I have always said that the magic formula for developing effective trapping hand skills is:

(1) Energy/Sensitivity Training
(2) Reference Point Trapping Drills - Simple and Compound
(3) Mook Jong Training
(4) Combative Application Training
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How does one develope sensitivity for "collecting energy" without developing their root? How does one cultivate the ability to listen to the hands of another when they have not been taught to go "within" and seek their own structural weaknesses? I wonder how folks in JKD develope their root--so that they can possess necessary "listening hands" needed for trapping and redirectional skills. Bruce knew about the importance of developing a root--yet I never hear JKD practitioners speak of rooting. Without a root how can a person receive incoming energy without emergence of structural flaws.

What does your Energy/Sensitivity Training consist of?

What are Reference Point Trapping Drills? Simple and Compound?

Do you know the Mook Jong form? Who taught it to you for not even Bruce learned the entire wooden dummy form? How can your Mook Jong training be effective without strong basic training which is introduced in the preceding three forms? Is your form modified? Why?

What is Combative Application Training?

I've always wondered why someone would study JKD and not Wing Chun. Wing Chun was Bruce's Mother Art and the only art that he received formal training in. Bruce's base knowledge was made possible due to his Wing Chun training and from there he referenced all future training. If one finds their car to not be in optimal condition do they junk the car or fine-tune the problem?

Bruce only had rougly 5 years of training--under the guidance of Wong Shun Leung, not Yip Man. His interaction with Yip was by all accounts brief and infrequent. He ended his training at the tender age of eighteen. What does a 13, 14, 15, 16,17 or 18 year old understand about motion? I myself would not trust the opinion of an 18 year old with merely five years of formal training. His body isn't even fully formed yet! Yet because of a confrontation Bruce found his Wing Chun to be lacking, so what does he do? He decides that Wing Chun failed him and doesn't even consider the fact that he failed Wing Chun. If Wing Chun was so ineffective why did he repeatedly call upon Leung Sheung for tea and martial discussion while filming the "Game of Death"?

Was Bruce skilled--yes. Was his Wing Chun training incomplete--you bet your backside. I often wonder how good he could have been with serious Wing Chun training---not five years from the age of 13-18. Think about a high school kid you might know from your neighborhood---would you trust his opinions over those of an experienced senior citizen with a lifetime of martial training (Bruce compared to Yip Man)? Apparently the JKD community does!

Just very curious,
Chris

Just curious,
Chris

curtis

04-01-2002, 07:35 PM

Nicely said Chris!
Although there are a few points that you made, that I believe are incorrect. I do not believe that Bruce felt that wing chun had failed him. (My sifu states then he believes Bruce Lee would have continued his training if he could find a master in the United States.) At the time Bruce Lee came to the states, almost no one heard of wing chun before. He needed to expand his knowledge of fighting, and he only way he could do that was to train against natural street fighters.
Remember back in the late '50s and early '60s A 18yr old punk Chinese kid, who weighed around 125-135lbs.
(In the United States he wasn't very small person.)
So he gathered up fighters. to train with and against,
Jesse Glover (a judo expert), James DeMile (a heavyweight boxer) ,Ed Hart (also a boxer semi pro) and Leroy Garcia (a mountain man) to name a few.
Bruce put his skills up against each of these men to see how he would fare. Through the adapting and modifying of wing chun, based upon his results, He develop the base that He needed to fight against man who were much bigger and more aggressive than what he is seen back in China.
As I understand it, Bruce flew back to China a few times to show YIP MAN what he had done. And as I understand it (just hearsay.) YIP MAN approved of Bruce's modifications. Anyhow he continued his own training! (and DID HIS OWN THING!)

I have never heard my sifu say anything bad about classical wing chun. Although he does state that we do not to do classical,(WC) Then he shows us why and how we have adapted and change.
They (classical Wing Chun ) do their thing, and we (Wing Chun Do.) Do ours.
Everything we have is from our ROOTS, it is our base that we can build off of.
In my opinion you need to build a base. After YOU have created your base,you must then build off of it. To expand and grow.
You must pay respect to tradition, but do not allow yourself to the caught up in it.
Again that is just my opinion.
Sincerely C.A.G.

Chris99

04-02-2002, 11:03 AM

Hi Curtis,

Thanks for the reply...I had never heard that Bruce would have continued to study Wing Chun. I believe he would have had the oppurtunity in Seattle...perhaps the individuals he encountered weren't that skillful. Like I said in another post, bad Wing Chun is very easy to find. When someone sees good Wing Chun they are not likely to easily forget it.

I was hoping that Lamar would give some insight into the training methodology he spoke of earlier.

Do you guys train your root? How?

Once again, Thanks Curtis,
Chris

curtis

04-03-2002, 02:51 AM

HI Chris
I to would like to hear for Mr.Lamar, on his training methods.
HUMM cannot argue for or against good wing chun. But likewise I'm sure you have never seen any of these man I just named, they all are world-class martial art's ,in their own right. (I've never seen anyone that was better!)
I believe the problem here is, you must evaluate each person as their own individual, not to classify them as a group or hole.
I to have seen some pretty bad Jeet Kune Do, ( as well as Wing Chun,) in the years and I have trained. But likewise I have seen some incredibly skilled martial art's as well over the years. (It's the person that makes the art, not the other way around.) granted some arts art better than others, but so are people.
Bruce Lee must have been incredibly skilled. (Is that from wing chun? Or Bruce's determination to become the best fighter possible.) who know!?. (I believe it was Bruce Lee )
But what I can tell you is, that those men I named in my earlier posting, each state they could not hold candle to Bruce Lee. And between you and I (and the world) I've never seen anyone (in any martial art) that could hold candle to them.
You must give wing chun its do. But do not give others grief because they do something different. For they may be just as skilled.
In my opinion, both Jesse Glover, and James DeMile are both world-class TRAPPERS, their sensitivity and skill level are far beyond anyone else is I've ever seen! (And I and seen some great wing chun masters, that did not have their abilities.)
Do not be so quick to judge others, is the only advice I can give you.
Except maybe?
Learn anything you can, from everyone who you meet, and never stop growing.
Sincerely C.A.G.

Roy D. Anthony

04-09-2002, 11:05 PM

To improve my sensitivity, I brush my teeth everyday. It really helps!!!Hope this Helps YOU!!!

jmdrake

04-11-2002, 09:15 AM

Hello Chris,

My energy/sensitivity training consists mostly of don chi sao and seong chi sao. But there are other energy drills such as cross arm chi sao, lop sao/bong sao drill, pak sao cycle drill, "5-way" energy drill, inner lop sao cycle drill ect. To answer the question of how I work the mook jong, I just "flow" with it. There isn't a "108 heavy bag" form either. I don't understand why you think that learning the form is the only way to learn to use the mook. At one time whoever came up with the "108 form" just "flowed" with it correct? Then he codified what he did into a form to preserve it. But there is clearly more than one way to the same result. As for the "rooting" stuff there are some JKD folks that get into it, and some that don't. I'm more interested in being mobile than being rooted. The goal of JKD is not to become a WC man. JKD is a hybrid art and like all hybrids it is not specifically either of its parents. I can make the energy stuff work for me in application. Am I properly "rooted"? I don't know. I don't particularly care. I'm sure there are advantages from WC that as a JKD man I loose from doing things a different way. But there are also advantages I gain from doing things a different way. One more thing. I don't think that 5 years of direct training under some of the best WC men in the world is anything to sneeze about. And I don't think that being a teenager has any relavency whatsoever.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Originally posted by Chris99

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How does one develope sensitivity for "collecting energy" without developing their root? How does one cultivate the ability to listen to the hands of another when they have not been taught to go "within" and seek their own structural weaknesses? I wonder how folks in JKD develope their root--so that they can possess necessary "listening hands" needed for trapping and redirectional skills. Bruce knew about the importance of developing a root--yet I never hear JKD practitioners speak of rooting. Without a root how can a person receive incoming energy without emergence of structural flaws.

What does your Energy/Sensitivity Training consist of?

What are Reference Point Trapping Drills? Simple and Compound?

Do you know the Mook Jong form? Who taught it to you for not even Bruce learned the entire wooden dummy form? How can your Mook Jong training be effective without strong basic training which is introduced in the preceding three forms? Is your form modified? Why?

What is Combative Application Training?

I've always wondered why someone would study JKD and not Wing Chun. Wing Chun was Bruce's Mother Art and the only art that he received formal training in. Bruce's base knowledge was made possible due to his Wing Chun training and from there he referenced all future training. If one finds their car to not be in optimal condition do they junk the car or fine-tune the problem?

Bruce only had rougly 5 years of training--under the guidance of Wong Shun Leung, not Yip Man. His interaction with Yip was by all accounts brief and infrequent. He ended his training at the tender age of eighteen. What does a 13, 14, 15, 16,17 or 18 year old understand about motion? I myself would not trust the opinion of an 18 year old with merely five years of formal training. His body isn't even fully formed yet! Yet because of a confrontation Bruce found his Wing Chun to be lacking, so what does he do? He decides that Wing Chun failed him and doesn't even consider the fact that he failed Wing Chun. If Wing Chun was so ineffective why did he repeatedly call upon Leung Sheung for tea and martial discussion while filming the "Game of Death"?

Was Bruce skilled--yes. Was his Wing Chun training incomplete--you bet your backside. I often wonder how good he could have been with serious Wing Chun training---not five years from the age of 13-18. Think about a high school kid you might know from your neighborhood---would you trust his opinions over those of an experienced senior citizen with a lifetime of martial training (Bruce compared to Yip Man)? Apparently the JKD community does!

Just very curious,
Chris

Just curious,
Chris

Chris99

04-12-2002, 11:04 AM

Hello JMDrake,

I never said you needed to know the Mook form in order to work with a dummy. I have one bolted in my basement wall and I don't know the Mook form. I have been taught some motions on the dummy by my Sifu---who knows the Mook form.

What is "flow"?
Jackie Chan once worked on the Mook in a movie "Rumble in the Bronx", and it was terrible--really bad in fact.

The dummy is not comparable to the heavy bag so you lose me here.

Whoever made up the Mook form was trying to convey information and concepts--not just randomly "flowing" around a wooden post.

I am mobile within my rooting, what makes you think I'm not?

If JKD is a hybrid art...what arts were specifically blended by Bruce?

You are right, 5 years of training under some of the best WC people in the world is nothing to sneeze at. However, how much time do you think the Grandmaster is going to afford the 13 year old kid? How much understanding will a 13 year old kid have of the curriculum over say a more mature, physically developed young adult? What is the attention span of a 13 year old?

I think it does matter somewhat.

Regards,
Chris

jmdrake

04-12-2002, 12:07 PM

Hello Chris,

I based my statement about the Mook form on when you said "Do you know the Mook Jong form? Who taught it to you for not even Bruce learned the entire wooden dummy form? How can your Mook Jong training be effective without strong basic training which is introduced in the preceding three forms? Is your form modified? Why?"

But if you think that it's possible to be able to effectively use the mook without knowing the mook form then we would agree. However I would go a step further and say that it's possible to effectively use the mook without knowing SLT or the other two WC forms either. After all there are other martial arts that use the mook or something similair and have a complete different set of forms. And, like I said, you don't have to know a form before learning to work the heavy bag. And yes, I know mook training is far different from a heavy bag. But the point is you can learn techniques that you can use on such a piece of equipment without first learning forms. And for the record I think the SLT is great and I've started working it myself. But I already knew how to work a mook. SLT isn't a prereq.

Also I never said that you didn't have mobility. I know nothing of your mobility just as you know nothing of my "rooting" or of my energy and sensitivity. But if I had to choose between improving on or the other I would choose mobility. And if what you call "rooting" is what I call "stability" then I do have that, although I probably wouldn't win in chi gung contests. :)

As for a teenager learning kung fu, we will have to agree to disagree. Since neither you nor I are grandmasters neither can really comment on who a grandmaster would spend time with. But regardless of that a true grandmaster would have quality teachers under him that would be able to teach much to someone in 5 years, even if he started training at age thirteen.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Sensei Kunz

04-29-2002, 09:06 AM

Forgive me for my ingnorance? I was informed that Bruce Leee stopped working on the Mook Jong the last few years of his life because he felt it was best to practice on human targets for better sensitivity training. Since the Mook Jong had no real movement of the human body and all individuals are different in their reactions in regards to trapping?

Sensei Kunz

jmdrake

04-29-2002, 11:10 AM

Hello Sensei Kunz,

You are probably no more ignorant on the subject of what happened in the last years of Bruce Lee's life than me. After all, I wasn't there. :) There are a couple of points, however, that I think are worth noting:

1) Bruce Lee emphasized different things to different people. Partly this was because people are different and come to the table with different attributes (although we all have "two arms and two legs.) The other difference is that Bruce Lee was always experimenting. Might it be possible that one "experiment" was to see how someone's trapping skills developed without mook jong training?

2) Regardless of what Bruce was doing in the last 2 or 3 years of life, he had already aquired many skills from his training. Some of that training was on the mook jong. So might someone "miss" an opportunity to develop some of those skills by foregoing mook jong training?

3) What do you do when you don't have a live training partner?

Ok. That was 3 points instead of two. ;)

Regards,

John M. Drake

Originally posted by Sensei Kunz
Forgive me for my ingnorance? I was informed that Bruce Leee stopped working on the Mook Jong the last few years of his life because he felt it was best to practice on human targets for better sensitivity training. Since the Mook Jong had no real movement of the human body and all individuals are different in their reactions in regards to trapping?

Sensei Kunz

S.Teebas

04-29-2002, 12:24 PM

...But there are others, can anyone out there give me, or explain how they train for sensitivity?

Sure. Just develop a structure. Then when you relaxed enough and your structure supports all your movements, you will have sensitivity inside your body (becasue the force travels through your arms to your centre of body mass)..here is the best place to react because it the heaviest part..so you can have the ability to change ur structure without being affected by outside forces so much...eg ur opponet trying to disrupt you via inputing/overloading you with force.

Dont think sensitivity ends at your arms. Also, only react when you need to (ie if they can affect you enough so you have to). A strong root will enabe you to absorb much force - thus minimising the actual need for large and often un-necessary movement. (the reason u see WC people use the efficent way!)

benny

04-29-2002, 10:57 PM

He develop the base that He needed to fight against man who were much bigger and more aggressive than what he is seen back in China.
(THIS WAS DUE TO THE LACK OF HIS ABILITY NOT THE STYLE)

As I understand it, Bruce flew back to China a few times to show YIP MAN what he had done. And as I understand it (just hearsay.) YIP MAN approved of Bruce's modifications. Anyhow he continued his own training! (and DID HIS OWN THING!)
JUST HEARSAY. COMPLETE CRAP, YIP DIDNT WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIM AS HE WAS HALF GERMAN.

But if you think that it's possible to be able to effectively use the mook without knowing the mook form then we would agree. However I would go a step further and say that it's possible to effectively use the mook without knowing SLT or the other two WC forms either.

HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DO TEACHES YOU WHAT YOU WANT THEN. WITHOUT CERTAIN PRICIBLES BEHIND THE MOVEMENTS THERE ARE JUST USLESS TECHNIQUES. wITHOUT THE TRAINING IN SLT AND CHUM KIU ITS LIKE STARTING A DEGREE IN SCIENCE AND NOT HAVE PASSED PRIMARY SCHOOL MATHS.

curtis

04-30-2002, 02:32 AM

Come on Benny! Do you really believe that!
Too point out the problems is easy, but finding out why you have that problem is a wholly different topic.
Bruce Lee found out when he came to the United States, that he was a very small man. (135lbs and 5'9") But back in China he was average if not to say a little larger than most Chinese. (There is something to be said about size! It may not be the end all be all, BUT the Americans Bruce saw were on average a hundred pounds heavier, much more aggressive and use a completely different style of fighting then they did back in China.)
It was stated in many articles I've read, that when the Westerners came to China, the average seamen could handle all but the most skilled masters in hand-in-hand combat. The jab and basic the boxing skills of most Europeans combined with the added strength and size, made foreign sailors very affordable.
BUT WE ARE GETTING OFF THE TOIPC.
Sensitivity and developing skill was the original topic. Not why, or how good Bruce Lee was when he came to the states.
I'm not trying to compare the old ways and the new ways of doing things. I am simply trying to see, DIFFERENT ways of training for sensitivity. (It is true that classical wing chun has many answers. But I do not believe it has all of the answers.) We must search ourselves and others to fully understand this topic.
Traping is widely misunderstood even in the classical world of the martial art's.
Perhaps instead of sensitivity exercisers.
We should first explore and understand different ideas on what makes traping work.
I am out of time!
Have to run! Looking for do hear from you again.
Sincerely C.A.G.

gungfuguy

04-30-2002, 07:35 AM

What is rooting? Is it stability as was suggested earlier? If that is the case, then I believe that stability and mobility are somewhat contrary concepts. You would like to find a good balance between being stable and yet mobile. I get the impression however, that rooting is more than that.

As for sensitivity, I think that exercises, per se, would not refine your sense of touch. If you practice exercises with poor sensitivity, then you will have accomplished nothing. I think the main thing is too slow way down in everything you are doing and focus all of your attention on your sense of touch; what is it telling you to do. Sometimes we want to force a movement or a technique because we feel that is the proper response; however, sensitivity will guide you to the proper response for each situation without thought, because it is based on what is felt and not what is believed. The name of this post sums it up well...Be My Lying Eyes. They will deceive you because that visual information has to be processed through your brain first and you brain will add its own interpretation to the information based on past experience, fear, doubt, anger, hatred etcetera. Touch impulses, however, are hardwired within us to bypass direct connection to the brain and to first route to the spinal cord for immediate classification and reaction. After that impulse has been "processed" in the spinal cord without the added color and bias of the brain, the signal will finally travel to the brain for interpretation. This is how we are able to jerk our hand away so quickly when we touch a hot object. For a split second it seems like someone else is controlling our movement. That sensation should come about in your sensitivity training so that at some point you are not sure "how" or "why" you responded with a certain movement...it just "felt" natural.

Scott

curtis

05-01-2002, 05:34 PM

First off. Very nice article Scott.

Benny, you have made statements and accusations that I do not believe to be factual.
I do not know where you got your information about YIP Man, not liking Bruce because of his heritage. The way you state your information sounds like it is first-hand information. And because of your age ,I do not believe that is to be true.
At the very best your information can be secondhand information. And I have serious doubts if you're information is correct. (No matter how you got it.)
I have received information from two different sources , both students of Bruce Lee (so you see my information is secondhand.) as well as having read a number books on this topic. Nowhere have I found anything stating that YIP MAN dislike Bruce Lee.
Secondly
why put down Bruce Lee's arts?
It wasn't so long ago that wing chun was look down upon, because of its age (after all wing chun is at its best, around 200 years old.) wing chun is very young system compared to many martial art's.
AND if the stories of how wing chun was created art true, then Bruce Lee was doing nothing different then what the founder of wing chun did.
[So why play the classical game? ]

In short Benny,
Please do not put down one system to build another UP. You can point out many differences, and input your opinions , BUT don't throw mud! No one is going to win that game.
Sincerely C.A.G.

jmdrake

05-02-2002, 07:50 AM

Hello Benny,

You said that someone was "half German". Who? Bruce Lee? Yip Man? Where on earth did you get that from?

With regards to the SLT and mook jong training, your "higher math" analogy is interesting, but non-applicable. Just ask yourself this question. How did the person who first came up with the SLT learn the movements? Certainly must be a way to learn/derive certain movements without doing a form. Oh, and come to thing of it, there are other ways to learn math and other subjects other than simply "by rote". So I guess your analogy fits after all. :)

Regards,

John M. Drake

jmdrake

05-02-2002, 08:44 AM

Hello Scott,

You make some very valid points! I think your illustration about touching the hot stove is important. It's almost like there's a "short circuit" in our nervous systems. You don't have to consciously process drawing your hand back, it just happens! (I have a theory that this type of non-central processing is what is needed to make the next great leaps in robotics, but that's another subject.) For me the purpose of developing sensitivity is to build in such "short circuits" aka "muscle memory." But I've also seen the same thing work in visual accuity as well. Sometimes in sparring I just "hit" on an opening without really thinking about it. Or I intercept an incoming punch without having to reherse what I'm about to do in my conscious mind. The subconscous mind is much faster in my opinion.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Originally posted by gungfuguy
What is rooting? Is it stability as was suggested earlier? If that is the case, then I believe that stability and mobility are somewhat contrary concepts. You would like to find a good balance between being stable and yet mobile. I get the impression however, that rooting is more than that.

As for sensitivity, I think that exercises, per se, would not refine your sense of touch. If you practice exercises with poor sensitivity, then you will have accomplished nothing. I think the main thing is too slow way down in everything you are doing and focus all of your attention on your sense of touch; what is it telling you to do. Sometimes we want to force a movement or a technique because we feel that is the proper response; however, sensitivity will guide you to the proper response for each situation without thought, because it is based on what is felt and not what is believed. The name of this post sums it up well...Be My Lying Eyes. They will deceive you because that visual information has to be processed through your brain first and you brain will add its own interpretation to the information based on past experience, fear, doubt, anger, hatred etcetera. Touch impulses, however, are hardwired within us to bypass direct connection to the brain and to first route to the spinal cord for immediate classification and reaction. After that impulse has been "processed" in the spinal cord without the added color and bias of the brain, the signal will finally travel to the brain for interpretation. This is how we are able to jerk our hand away so quickly when we touch a hot object. For a split second it seems like someone else is controlling our movement. That sensation should come about in your sensitivity training so that at some point you are not sure "how" or "why" you responded with a certain movement...it just "felt" natural.

Scott

planetwc

05-03-2002, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Sensei Kunz
Forgive me for my ingnorance? I was informed that Bruce Leee stopped working on the Mook Jong the last few years of his life because he felt it was best to practice on human targets for better sensitivity training. Since the Mook Jong had no real movement of the human body and all individuals are different in their reactions in regards to trapping?

Sensei Kunz

He may have. However he never learned the proper structure for working on it iether. That is VERY obvious from the photos of Him with it.

Therefore, I'd presume he did his own thing.

The Jong is not just about "trapping".

curtis

05-03-2002, 06:41 PM

Planetwc
I have no idea where you are coming from.
Granted the mook jong is good tool, it can be used in many different ways to perform and achieve individual goals, like stretching, flow, traping, basic foot work and reinforcing of power lines (structural integrity of your stances)

IS IT so important to use the mook jong in the classical approach?

Since I have no idea what Bruce Lee knew, or didn't known as far as the mook jong gos, I am curious, why do you (as well as others) put such importance on the mook jong for training. And how can you tell from still photo if He was doing anything incorrect?
Please believe me, I am being sincere, I do not understand your point of view.

I was taught that nothing can compare to good secondary, no matter how good a tool may be, a human is far superior for learning correctly and training probably.
.
C.A.G.

Sensei Kunz

05-03-2002, 11:48 PM

You are right about that there is no better training than another human being. Bruce Lee mentioned many times that he loved teaching to students as ginea pigs and got paid for it.

Sensei Kunz

planetwc

05-04-2002, 03:23 AM

Originally posted by curtis
Planetwc
I have no idea where you are coming from.
Granted the mook jong is good tool, it can be used in many different ways to perform and achieve individual goals, like stretching, flow, traping, basic foot work and reinforcing of power lines (structural integrity of your stances)

IS IT so important to use the mook jong in the classical approach?

It is just a tool. That said, if you are using it improperly to begin with, are you really getting the actual benefit of it?

If you use a slide rule as simply a ruler, a calculator or abacus as a paperweight you certainly use them as tools but not of course in their optimal use. If you hold a baseball bat or a golf club by the wrong end or with an incorrect grip your use will not be optimal. Same thing here.

Since I have no idea what Bruce Lee knew, or didn't known as far as the mook jong gos, I am curious, why do you (as well as others) put such importance on the mook jong for training.

You'd have to be doing Wing Chun with an instructor who understands and can teach you the goals and usage behind that tool and HOW it will develop your attributes.

There are many who want to buy a jong and bash the heck out of it, as if it were some makiwara. There are many even in Wing Chun who mistakenly do this.

Misusing a tool or instrument, merely means you don't get the real value of it. Using a stradivarius as a ukelele is not it's optimal implementation. Extreme examples to be sure, but hopefully you see the direction I'm going.

And how can you tell from still photo if He was doing anything incorrect?

By looking at his structure in relationship to the jong. It can be seen in some of the VERY early pictures of Lee in Seattle/Oakland.
And somewhat in the LA JKD photos. One of the functions of the jong is to serve as a protractor if you will, allowing one to train to have the right distance and spinal alignment and structure in relationship to an opponent. The pictures speak volumes about that. You recognize it when you see it, once you've seen what it should be.

You look at the leaning in of the upper body to have the hands touch the jong and it shows it right there. His range is completely off and that is why he is having to lean in to reach it! It is very glaring.

Just as one can see that early on Bruce had phenomenal hand speed, but very clumsy footwork. It is NO WONDER that he looked to fencing and boxing to fill in his gaps in that area. You can see it in the basement and parking garage chi sao sessions with Taky.

Please believe me, I am being sincere, I do not understand your point of view.

I was taught that nothing can compare to good secondary, no matter how good a tool may be, a human is far superior for learning correctly and training probably.
.
C.A.G. [/B]

The secondary you are looking for in this case is Chi Sao. It and the Jong accomplish 2 very different things. And performing it with as large a sampling of people of shapes, sizes, etc. is the best of all.

Yet we still use tools. Boxers use heavy bags, speed bags etc.
Karatemen use makiwara. Muaty Thai fighters use their pads and gloves. Wing Chun uses: The wallbag, the dummy, the knives and the pole.

Bruce dabbled with Muay Thai equipment. It was acknowledged by Dan, after the fact that at the time he trained with Thai pads Bruce was using and holding them incorrectly. Dan found that out after training with folks like Chai S.

Yet at the time, Bruce probably felt he was doing things the Muay Thai way, to dissect the (MT) approach and evaluate what was usefull as combat tools for himself. Yet he missed some very basic things in just using the equipment!

So what else was missed BECAUSE he was unware of it?
What else was discarded, BECAUSE it was never fully seen?

The same thing applies in his training of the dummy. There are key things he didn't understand or was unaware of. Hence, his approach and evolution was based on incomplete knowledge.

What I observe in JKD guys is an obsession with "trapping" as if it is the end all be all of Wing Chun "portions" of Jun Fan/JKD. Yet to a Wing Chun student such as myself, trapping is such a truly MINOR opportunistic byproduct of what we train.

Hopefully this explains things a bit more.

regards,

David

curtis

05-04-2002, 05:36 AM

David
thank you for the well-written and informative commentary.
I am starting see where you are coming from. Although again I believe there may be gaps in our way of thinking.
You stated;
"You look at the leaning in of the upper body to have the hands touch the jong and it shows it right there. His range is completely off and that is why he is having to lean in to reach it! It is very glaring."

Isn't it possible that Bruce was using the mook jong differently to experiment or work on different concepts at the time of the photos? Because the leaning of the upper body is a very big element in the learning of how to use and control the bodies spring energy.

You also stated; [Just as one can see that early on Bruce had phenomenal hand speed, but very clumsy footwork. It is NO WONDER that he looked to fencing and boxing to fill in his gaps in that area.]
again perhaps just difference in ideas. (Or concepts) closing the gap (a distance range greater than your extended parameter) can be rather troublesome to say the least. So why not look outside to find out what other people do? Fencing is a art unlike any other known in China. And boxing had elements in it that again never was thought of in the Orient.
I was taught that Bruce Lee used what we call the three structural rule's to evaluate any and all techniques, those rules are.

Simplicity (it must be natural for the body to do.) Efficiency (as few moves possible) and Practicality (basically stating that it must work ON THE STREET)
any new techniques or concepts must meet to all three of these elements in order to even the look at .
Any techniques that does not meet up to the three structural rule's must be removed from your basic self-defense package. If you like a technique but it doesn't meet up to the three structural rule's, then you must keep them separate from your self-defense training.
Like the title of this forum By my lying eyes, the eyes can deceive you , not only in technique but in understanding, sometimes you just have to touch and feel to understand the point trying to be made.
Sincerely yours C.A.G.

Sensei Kunz

05-04-2002, 05:45 AM

Well stated!

The main core of JKD is footwork which has not been incorporated into the traditional styles, this is what made the flow of different technique applications even more useful in delivery. Without footwork from fencing then there is no JKD.

Sensei Kunz

planetwc

05-04-2002, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by jmdrake
Hello Benny,

You said that someone was "half German". Who? Bruce Lee? Yip Man? Where on earth did you get that from?

With regards to the SLT and mook jong training, your "higher math" analogy is interesting, but non-applicable. Just ask yourself this question. How did the person who first came up with the SLT learn the movements? Certainly must be a way to learn/derive certain movements without doing a form. Oh, and come to thing of it, there are other ways to learn math and other subjects other than simply "by rote". So I guess your analogy fits after all. :)

Regards,

John M. Drake

Bruce was indeed half German on his mother's side.

Some who were jealous of Bruce used that as a reason politically within the Wing Chun school of Ip Man to force him out of Ip's main school. That said, it is more likely that Bruce ended his training with Ip Man and Wong Shun Leung simply because he emigrated to the US. His only Wing Chun contact in the US was with Fook Yeung a "Red Boat" stylist in the pacific northwest (and hence a completely different style of Wing Chun).

That said, Bruce was obviously a favorite young student of Ip Man just as William Cheung was. Therefore claims of Ip Man not "liking" Bruce are specious.

Additionally, Ip Man taught guys like Rolf Clausnitzer who (as you can tell) was obviously German. Rolf is a Wing Chun teacher under the Wong Shun Leung lineage. Wong you may remember was one of Bruce's principal teachers (in addition to Ip Man).

The bottom line is Bruce trained very hard and had good cardio by the time he went back to HK. This meant he was in better shape and was more rigorous about his training than the average student. It would give him the advantage against his lazy sidai and sihings. Mix in some youthfull arrogance along with Wing Chun aggressiveness and you will make "political" enemies.

It IS said (By Ip Man's son Ip Chun) that at one point late on Bruce went to Ip Man and offered to pay him a large amount of money or to pay for an apartment for him, if he Ip Man, would let Bruce film him doing the wooden dummy. Ip Man declined the offer. There was something about how it was presented that apparently rubbed Ip Man the wrong way, as he was known for taking sums of money for just these kinds of things.

In fact, there IS footage of Ip Man doing all the sets and the dummy. I have the footage of the first 2 sets and the dummy.
Apparently Leung Ting has the Bil Jee and perhaps the weapons footage, which it is rumored was done for some high ranking police students. It was filmed very close to his death well beyond his peak of skill or endurance. He died very shortly afterwards. So what we see on the video is a shadow of what he really was.

It is quite poignant to see Ip Man pause to rest on the jong to catch his breath and try to remember the next set of movements.
Quite sad.

curtis

05-05-2002, 05:57 PM

David
you never ansered my question on the mook jong .
Granted the mook jong is a good tool, it can be used in many different ways to perform and achieve YOUR individual goals, like stretching, flow, traping, basic foot work and reinforcing of power lines (structural integrity of your stances)
BUT HOW CAN IT BE USED FOR SENSITIVITY???
C.A.G.

Sensei Kunz

05-05-2002, 08:49 PM

Is your question being directed at me or the other David?

I personally feel that the mook jong is great for footwork, trapping and intercepting, however, not that great for sensitivity training. I believe the best is a human being to be able to feel the flow of energy and muscle movement of anticipation of your opponent.

Your Servant

Sensei David Kunz

curtis

05-06-2002, 02:26 AM

WOOPS
I am sorry I didn't realize that were two David here.
The question was addressed to Planetwc,(david)
But since I have you Sensei David Kunz, I can think of question in your direction about closing.
To my understanding Bruce Lees basic closing mainly came from wing chun, not fencing. As I understand it, some element fencing was added for individual closes, but the shuffle steping movement (I call the direct close) was more or less a wing chun close only slightly modified.
Granted I could be wrong.

I believe it is the use or, the ability to move the body in a single unit, that makes traping so effective.

Do you (or anyone) have drills or exercisers to increase your sensitivity through the use of the body?

I see spring energy as a whole, comes from the body. But can be broken down into two elements for the understanding and control .those elements are body spring load (used for power) and arm spring energy (used for traping)
I believe you must be able to identify the two types of energy in order to understand traping. Arm spring energy is easily trapped. But body spring energy is too strong and must be redirected (or to say the least, you must give away from it, because it is to powerful. That is unless you can identify it, and redirect it before it is actually applied.)

I am out a time!!.
In closing I am trying to understand sensitivity/traping in a broader sense, I would like to hear anyone and everyone's ideas on the topic.
Sincerely yours C.A.G.

Sensei Kunz

05-06-2002, 06:48 AM

Yes, originally it did come from wing chun in his Seattle years, because as we all know, trapping is a major part of wing chun, just as it is in many styles of Kung-Fu.

Regarding the fencing movement, I am almost positive he incorpoated this in his Los Angeles days. The push shuffle was used as a blast foward using your strong side forward for maximum effect and having your strongest tools closest to your opponent. The key is to be able to develop the power through proper training on delivery of speed and power. I am not sure if the push shuffle was a scientific method or part of wing chun, however, I can ask Tim Tackett or Bob Bremer and find out the exact information.

The movement of using the body as a whole unit for maximum power delivery in every hit or kick is a must. This cannot be accoplished without proper flow from one delivery into another. The key is to always use the whole body in every technique, never using it seperately. By using the footwork with trapping, the sensitivity training is more explosive. This is something that you do not want to divide into seperate units.

Your foundation and base (footwork) is the main core of JKD. The speed of evasion and counter or simple direct attack are more faster than the usual stances that have been taught over thousands of years. Of course, there are many more elements that are imperative, such as the lead hand and arm positioning upon attack or defense that is a must when entering into combat for attack, including trapping.

You are right about being to fast in moving into your opponent for it to work properly with trapping. however, with propert training in using the body as a whole and sensitivity training by redirecting the bodyy's movement in flow that makes it work, but only as a whole unit. Again, the body cannot be divided into two!

Exercises:

Must have a willing working opponent that will resist. JKD is best trained upon knowing technique when you have a willing partner who will assist in training by being resistant.

Have your partner attack with hands, either one or combinations and practice evasion and counter or interception. Upon contact with open hand parries, feel your oppenents energy and muscle tension as you redirect your whole force with his movement with this keep in mind, you must be able to flow with correct footwork to keep advantage of your opponent. By this I mean, shifting the body by the footwork in two or three inch steps, either lead or rear foot for better positioning and ustilize your trapping skills. You will know and feel whcih way to go, if not, experiment for your own feel. See what work for you! Upon trapping, pull your opponent slightly or aggressively and feel his reaction upon delivery of hit. He may react where you may feel easier to go from trapping to grappling?

I have always favored going to my oppents back side in any situations for grapping and take-down technique after delivery of a hit or two.

I hope this helps!

Your Servant

Sensei Kunz

curtis

05-07-2002, 02:14 AM

Thank you
the exercise to describe, sounds like a very good one for the reinforcing of basic neural responses, although the question in sensitivity/traping is to identify and learn new responses, it seems to me your exercise could be even more useful if you moved in slow motion (as if doing TAI CHI) trying to identify the first element, as it happens, and then to respond correctly.
If you can identify the individual element, (the start-up) then you can experiment with different types of responses. ( Example when to lop soa or fook soa, or to press trap and or dissipate the opponents energy.)
the identify and learning new ways of handling energy is the challenge,.
I like to do the exercise describe while wearing a blindfold. Once in contact with the opponents the sense of touch becomes even more critical.
The trick of it is to maintain your offensive and the defensive posture at the same time. Both hands must work together, along with the body, in order to identify and respond to the energy that is given to you. (Much like chi soa, hands in the body must work together.)
A basic flow exercise could also be useful. (My definition of a flow exercise, is any exercise that uses repetition in order to get the brain out of the way. Once you're in the flow of things then to have the secondary disrupt that flow. The purpose for a flow drill is to see how your body can react to change/disruption.)
A basic example would be basic chung choy's with the secondary interrupting the flow with blocking movement every so often. And seeing how the primary handles change as it happens.
DOSE anyone have any more ideas or drills, to work on sensitivity/different ways of handling energy?
The drills are the trick!
Thanks again.
Sincerely yours
C.A.G.

planetwc

05-07-2002, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by curtis
David
you never ansered my question on the mook jong .
Granted the mook jong is a good tool, it can be used in many different ways to perform and achieve YOUR individual goals, like stretching, flow, traping, basic foot work and reinforcing of power lines (structural integrity of your stances)
BUT HOW CAN IT BE USED FOR SENSITIVITY???
C.A.G.

Primarily the Wing Chun Mook Jong is used to train position and delivery of attacks to targets. That said in the establishment of position, there is an amount of sensitivity involved. By that I mean remember what the arms on the dummy represent. You want to have the correct POSITION as you transition through the hands. That said, in the establishment of position and the transition during flow there is sensistivity involved.

As with Chi Sao, your eyes should not be looking at the hands or your feet, but at the eyes/head of the opponent (or virutal representation of that in the jong's case).

So as you execute the "hands" you are establishing:

1. Your body distance from the jong itself.
2. The OPTIMAL placement of your limbs in regards to delivery of attacks, neutralizations and transitions to attacks.
3. The minimal amount of energy needed to deliver.
4. Footwork.
5. Posture and spinal alignment.

In doing so, you feel where your limbs are in relationship to the limbs and body core of the dummy. You are engaged in sensitivity.

While I would say it is a judgement call as to position vs sensitivity; for sake of argument here lets say it is 70/30. The actual percentages may be more extreme, but this should suffice for our discussion.

Remember Chi Sao is still there as the prime activity for sensitivity and "chaos theory" in operation.

I hope this answer helps. I took the time to wait till my last class and the opportunity to stand next to the jong and watch corrections on the first 10 hands recently by my teacher.

Again, I am coming at this from a Wing Chun perspective.

regards,

David Williams

planetwc

05-07-2002, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Sensei Kunz
Well stated!

The main core of JKD is footwork which has not been incorporated into the traditional styles, this is what made the flow of different technique applications even more useful in delivery. Without footwork from fencing then there is no JKD.

Sensei Kunz

Given the breadth of traditional Chinese armed and unarmed combat I'm not sure I would make that argument.

There are literally hundreds of arts with ALL kinds of footwork.

That said, Wing Chun has it's own footwork as well. Much of the approach of rapid entry (ie closing the gap) and zeroing in on your hapless opponent IS there. It is present particularly in the footwork of Bil Jee and biu ma stepping. It is unclear to me the degree to which Bruce was really deeply trained in those aspects.

Therefore, it is only NATURAL to me that he would look outside for answers, when he seemingly didn't see them in his base art. If you look at a lot of the other Wing Chun guys who emigrated to the US, many of them dived into other arts given their lack of "finishing" of the style at that point in time. Many of them have since had the time to delve more deeply into their mother art and found the footwork or other "answer" they were looking for.

I think you have to look at the basic set of tools folks like he and Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung used to fight on the rooftops in Hong Kong. It simply took stepping forward with chain punches on the centerline to defeat the other stylists. That works well when your opponent is not seasoned, or has an answer for that. But when they do, you are going to need more out of the toolkit, and that only works if you have those tools. If you don't then you are going to want to look somewhere for a solution.

curtis

05-08-2002, 03:43 PM

Planetwc (David)
thank you . The mook jong is a good tool. But it is only a tool, and it is only as good as person whose using it.
Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying, a Master can use an ordinary tool, extraordinary. But a novice cannot hope to achieve the same results as the Master. (The novice, does not have time or experience, to achieve the same results.)
The way I was taught, To perceive things is, to break them down into there smallest elements, then to make drills at work on the individual attributes that make the techniques work.
It's like putting together a puzzle, each attribute is a piece of the puzzle, (once you figured out how that piece fits into the larger scheme of things you can move on.) The big picture is too large for any one at beginning to comprehend. Although after you have built a solid foundation you start to see how these pieces fit together to create the puzzle (or picture).
Of course we may have differences of opinion, on how and why things are done. It does not make one right, or one wrong. It just means that they are different. I respect that ! I do what I do because ..., I realized I do not have all the answers so I am always on the quest for personalized excellence. I have no right to the judge others, ("WELL" most others,OK! There are the jerks of the world, that need to be put straight, but I still listened to their point of view. And I try not to judge too often.)
HAY IM ONLY HUMAN!!!!
"O" by the way, what is this chaos theory? (I think I understand but I am not a hundred percent sure. If you could enlighten me I would be obliged .)
Thanks again, and I will be talking to you (and everyone) later.
Sincerely yours
C.A.G.

planetwc

05-08-2002, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by curtis
Planetwc (David)
thank you . The mook jong is a good tool. But it is only a tool, and it is only as good as person whose using it.
"O" by the way, what is this chaos theory? (I think I understand but I am not a hundred percent sure. If you could enlighten me I would be obliged .)
Thanks again, and I will be talking to you (and everyone) later.
Sincerely yours
C.A.G.

I like the line that Jeff GoldBlum's character in the first Jurassic Park uses to describe Chaos theory. To me it can and should apply to Chi Sao. The Wing Chun sets have the conceptual principles of the art hardwired into them. We practice these sets in a deliberate manner to attempt to wire them into our neural processes, so that we simply react reflexively in given ranges and contexts from the toolbox of principles and their actions.

That said Chi Sao adds Chaos Theory in. You want to be able to touch as many different hands as you can. Each person brings alls sorts of things to the "mix" of interaction between you.

1. Too Stiff
2. Too Soft
3. Slow
4. Fast
5. Height differential
6. Strength and it's use
7. Conditioning
8. Control
9. Level of skill
10. reaction time
11. Reaction
12. "Flavor" of attack/defense

The list goes on. You mix those in with your own personal attributes and engage in flowing chi sao and suddenly anything can happen. That is the whole point. There is no fixed or static response. You are dealing with aliveness. Even if that aspect is not in the intent of your partner, but you have it, it is there.

It is the ability to adapt and respond to the interactions which are taking place. Rolling with someone 4' 6" is different from someone 6'4". The angles are different. The bridge is different.
The body structure is different.

Good old chaos theory in action. Real time adaptation of the "model" of Wing Chun principles and attributes to the real world, real time.

planetwc

05-08-2002, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by curtis
Planetwc (David)
thank you . The mook jong is a good tool. But it is only a tool, and it is only as good as person whose using it.
Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying, a Master can use an ordinary tool, extraordinary. But a novice cannot hope to achieve the same results as the Master. (The novice, does not have time or experience, to achieve the same results.)

The Mook Jong is indeed a good tool.
There is a reason why it is normally exposed AFTER the 3 sets and chi sao in Wing Chun Kuen.

And the "hands" of the jong (or movements) are normally taught in groups of ten. And the first 10 are the most complex for a student to deal with. Once you can get by the "busyness" (sorry the best word I can use) of those hands, it is downhill from there with the rest.

It is inappropriate for the novice to go where they aren't yet ready. Some student learning to fly a cessna should not expect to hop in an F111 Strike Eagle and engage in precision flying like the Blue Angels or Top Gun pilots.

They aren't READY yet. Same thing in Wing Chun.

The sets, drills and Chi Sao are there to develop the attributes, the Jong is there to build on those attributes and reinforce position and 3 dimensional positioning in relation to an opponent.
Aside from which the student just needs "baking in" time to burn in the training to have a foundation to expand on. You have to build the foundation and walls before you can put the roof on a building. Same thing for combative arts.

regards,

David

curtis

05-10-2002, 02:02 AM

David
I agree with everything you have stated. The goal to make technique into a neural response is critical. The brain is too slow to process information, as quickly as it is needed in a confrontation, so you must find a way to hard wire certain information directly into the body (neural response) GUNGFU GUY stated earlier the analogy of touching a hot surface. And that is exactly what a neural response is. (An automatic response).
the big problem with many martial artist's is that they think too much. That is they anticipate, ( trying to prodict or guess what will happen.) it's like the old song goes {{ anticipation its making the wait.}} (the keyword is making, you do not want your opponent make you do anything, you must respond to his movements and not react to them. There is a subtle difference and that difference is what makes traping work)
in my understanding of traping. The goal is to feel/listen to what the opponent is doing and respond to the motion instead of reacting to it.
The term react, leads me to think, my opponent is in control, and I have to react after his movement has started. (Basically blocking)
where respond for responding leads me maintain control, THUS it allows to move when the opponent moves, not after. (Allowing me to easily redirect energy before it is allowed to grow.)
exercises like chi soa, phon soa, lin sil di dar (both the concept, and the exercise) make traping so very dynamic. I will also used to mook jong to reinforce the basic positions as well to teach how to flow from one hand and the other, the dummy also helps students learn how to maintain control, (since of touch.) Basically one hand will not let go until the other first replaces it. (Always paying attention to being offensive and defensive at the same time.)
So you see the mook jong can be use in a non-traditional sense, to reinforce and train students with out learning the traditional forms. And before you condemn me for not using the forms, I like the point out, that each sifu I have seen deviates or changes the forms slightly. Take the sil lim toa I've seen it done six or seven different ways each being different and form and in movements.
So again we come down to it, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Sincerely yours C.A.G.

Ryu

05-23-2002, 10:52 AM

Bruce's mother was half German, not Bruce himself.
He did have German in him though, but 50% German he was not.

Ryu

jmdrake

05-23-2002, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by planetwc

Bruce was indeed half German on his mother's side.

Some who were jealous of Bruce used that as a reason politically within the Wing Chun school of Ip Man to force him out of Ip's main school. That said, it is more likely that Bruce ended his training with Ip Man and Wong Shun Leung simply because he emigrated to the US. His only Wing Chun contact in the US was with Fook Yeung a "Red Boat" stylist in the pacific northwest (and hence a completely different style of Wing Chun).

That said, Bruce was obviously a favorite young student of Ip Man just as William Cheung was. Therefore claims of Ip Man not "liking" Bruce are specious.

Additionally, Ip Man taught guys like Rolf Clausnitzer who (as you can tell) was obviously German. Rolf is a Wing Chun teacher under the Wong Shun Leung lineage. Wong you may remember was one of Bruce's principal teachers (in addition to Ip Man).

The bottom line is Bruce trained very hard and had good cardio by the time he went back to HK. This meant he was in better shape and was more rigorous about his training than the average student. It would give him the advantage against his lazy sidai and sihings. Mix in some youthfull arrogance along with Wing Chun aggressiveness and you will make "political" enemies.

It IS said (By Ip Man's son Ip Chun) that at one point late on Bruce went to Ip Man and offered to pay him a large amount of money or to pay for an apartment for him, if he Ip Man, would let Bruce film him doing the wooden dummy. Ip Man declined the offer. There was something about how it was presented that apparently rubbed Ip Man the wrong way, as he was known for taking sums of money for just these kinds of things.

In fact, there IS footage of Ip Man doing all the sets and the dummy. I have the footage of the first 2 sets and the dummy.
Apparently Leung Ting has the Bil Jee and perhaps the weapons footage, which it is rumored was done for some high ranking police students. It was filmed very close to his death well beyond his peak of skill or endurance. He died very shortly afterwards. So what we see on the video is a shadow of what he really was.

It is quite poignant to see Ip Man pause to rest on the jong to catch his breath and try to remember the next set of movements.
Quite sad.

Ummm...half german on his mother's side would make Bruce 1/4 German, not 1/2 German. Small quibble I know. :) Anyway there were other WC men such as Hawkins Cheung who knew the COMPLETE system and had to modify what they where doing when facing opponents much bigger than themselves. That's nothing against WC, it's just a fact of life that when you always train with people your own size or smaller you half to make adjustments when facing much larger opponents. Hawkins Cheung (with the help of Ip Man) was able to do this within WC. Bruce had to go outside WC to do this. Oh, and I'd love to see the Ip Man footage.

Regards,

John M. Drake

curtis

05-23-2002, 06:25 PM

Hay David ARE YOU STILL OUT THERE!!!!! YA you too!

There's nothing wrong with modifying something. (My opinion) it is done all of the time. In martial art's as well is in life in general. Necessity is the mother of all invention! There is in need, or problem that needs to be fixed, WE must fixed it!
People throughout the generations have found, that sometimes they must modify or change from the old ways of doing things, or become extinct.
Come on! Do you really believe that the martial art that you do today is the same art, your ancestors used?
People change, cultures change.

CHANGE is the only thing that is constant in this world.

So why put down someone who changes something for the better?
Bruce Lee had a problem with larger Americans when he first came to the states. So he had to change (adapt to his environment.)
Instead of saying "HOW COULD YOU!" Shouldn't you be asking WHY,Are you doing this? and HOW, Does it work?
I believe that Bruce Lee was very subtle about how and what he change (not to mention secretive) in his methodology. (Why else you believe there'd be such controversy over what he did.)
I believe one of the things he would have had to change, was his method of traping. He had to (as I see it) off balance his opponent, ( or take away their base.) As quickly as possible. So that they (the Americans he encountered.) could not use their greater size and strength against him.

OK THERES MY STATEMENT now the the QUESTION.

I do not have the answers. Only a lot of questions. Although I do believe it had to do with his sense of touch, and sensitivity, to incoming energy.
So again , I ask how do you see it? And how DO you believe he applied it?
Sincerely C.A.G.
"By my lying eyes" I didn't see that one COMEING! ;) cag.

TargetAlex

05-24-2002, 05:52 AM

As Curtis said, change is the one constant in life.

I see change as having two categories, 'macrochange' and 'microchange'.

'Macrochange' would be those changes where we look beyond the tools we have already acquired in order to find a solution to a problem that we cannot seem to solve with those tools. This would be along the lines of what Bruce chose to do when confronted with 'larger American' adversaries; he looked to other arts in order to examine other tools that might help to solve a particular problem. ( He also 'tweaked' those new tools so that they would work from the fighting stance he liked.) Hawkins Cheung seems to have looked inside the system to adapt his Wing Chun to find solutions. Niether way should be criticized (in my opinion), as they both are serving to 'find the cause of ignorence.' If Bruce had not labelled his initial adaptations 'Jun Fan Gung Fu' and his later adaptations 'Jeet Kune Do', we would be referring to what he did as Wing Chun, or modified Wing Chun. Anyone who is properly being trained in JKD knows how much of the structure of Wing Chun still carries into JKD, even though the foot positions (for example) have been modified. Every martial art gets modified as it evolves from generation to generation, instructor to instructor- it cannot be helped. Bruce's changes may seem more drmatic, or more drastic, but each instructor puts his personality into the techniques he is teaching, subconciously or not. Although the essentials are there, (a side kick is a side kick), the timing, delivery method, or 'expression' of that side kick has evolved (we hope for the better.)

'Microchange' is what we do on the fly. For example, when sparring an opponent who immediately demonstrates an ability to slip well, you will change your tactics, perhaps using some form of draw to open a new line for your attack. We make these kinds of 'microchanges' quickly, and often subconciously, in order to gain the advantage in an altercation. If you try something, and it doesn't work, you had better try something different quickly, or you're done!

-Alex

planetwc

05-24-2002, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by curtis
Hay David ARE YOU STILL OUT THERE!!!!! YA you too!

There's nothing wrong with modifying something. (My opinion) it is done all of the time. In martial art's as well is in life in general. Necessity is the mother of all invention! There is in need, or problem that needs to be fixed, WE must fixed it!
People throughout the generations have found, that sometimes they must modify or change from the old ways of doing things, or become extinct.
Come on! Do you really believe that the martial art that you do today is the same art, your ancestors used?
People change, cultures change.

CHANGE is the only thing that is constant in this world.

So why put down someone who changes something for the better?
Bruce Lee had a problem with larger Americans when he first came to the states. So he had to change (adapt to his environment.)
Instead of saying "HOW COULD YOU!" Shouldn't you be asking WHY,Are you doing this? and HOW, Does it work?
I believe that Bruce Lee was very subtle about how and what he change (not to mention secretive) in his methodology. (Why else you believe there'd be such controversy over what he did.)
I believe one of the things he would have had to change, was his method of traping. He had to (as I see it) off balance his opponent, ( or take away their base.) As quickly as possible. So that they (the Americans he encountered.) could not use their greater size and strength against him.

OK THERES MY STATEMENT now the the QUESTION.

I do not have the answers. Only a lot of questions. Although I do believe it had to do with his sense of touch, and sensitivity, to incoming energy.
So again , I ask how do you see it? And how DO you believe he applied it?
Sincerely C.A.G.
"By my lying eyes" I didn't see that one COMEING! ;) cag.

Which David? :D

Anyway...
One of my Wing Chun teachers grew up with Bruce and is actually probably smaller than Bruce was. That said, he can control much larger beefy guys with ease. I have 100 pounds on this teacher and he can use me and other > 6' guys like a broom.

When Bruce started teaching in Seattle he was reputed to be able to control the larger Jesse Glover, James DeMile, and the other jumbo sized Americans with ease.

I would expect that to come from his skill level in Wing Chun at the time compared to untrained hands with no concept of the centerline and sensitivity. There came a point however, where Bruce experienced deminished return once his students got the concepts he was using. Glover and Demile both note that Bruce started withholding techniques down in LA (not sure about Oakland) as he said "Why teach someone to beat me?".

That says that yes, Bruce reached the limits of the amount of training he had in Wing Chun. It does not speak to the limits of Wing Chun itself.

At what point does one really have the knowledge or even the skill to modify something? 6 months? 1 year? 5? 20? 30?

How deeply does one understand AND how deeply does one have the skill level of the art in question?

So if Jeet Kune or stopping fist was about shutting down someone because you were afraid of their size, or unable to engage them close range and dominate them there, could it be that there was more that needed to be learned, until one "maxes out"?

In the end, of course there is going to be a scaling limit for a small guy against a large SKILLED guy. It is why there are weight classes in most events right? You don't see flyweights fighting heavyweights in Boxing, it is just a mismatch.

I certainly don't begrudge Bruce doing what he did for himself. It worked for him. For the others out there doing change for change sake, I ask: How many studied with the leading master and fighters of their base art and for how long did they study prior to "changing" things?

How many JKD guys had the base such as it was in Bruce's case from training with Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung and William Cheung?
How deep are their wells of skill and knowledge?

planetwc

05-24-2002, 11:49 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jmdrake
[B]

Ummm...half german on his mother's side would make Bruce 1/4 German, not 1/2 German. Small quibble I know. :) Anyway there were other WC men such as Hawkins Cheung who knew the COMPLETE system and had to modify what they where doing when facing opponents much bigger than themselves. That's nothing against WC, it's just a fact of life that when you always train with people your own size or smaller you half to make adjustments when facing much larger opponents. Hawkins Cheung (with the help of Ip Man) was able to do this within WC. Bruce had to go outside WC to do this.

Did Hawkins have the COMPLETE system and have it mastered when he first arrived in the US and started studying Goju? According to Hawkins he went back to Ip Man 4 times, though most of that was described as discussions over lunch or dinner. If he says he did, then fine, I will not speak ill of him on this forum.

I would tend to think that at the time, Hawkins had not completed or perhaps had the skill level that he does now or even 15 years ago.

Being shown the 3 sets, dummy and weapons is one thing. Mastery is another. Does Hawkins say he had completed and MASTERED Wing Chun at the time he was in the US? Was he at the peak of skill in Wing Chun, found it lacking and invested in Goju Ryu and Yang Taiji?

curtis

05-26-2002, 05:11 AM

first off.
Alex I like your line of thinking.

Secondly. Welcome back David. (I knew you, you wouldn't let this topic die.)
YOUR quote.
"I certainly don't begrudge Bruce doing what he did for himself. It worked for him. For the others out there doing change for change sake, I ask: How many studied with the leading master and fighters of their base art and for how long did they study prior to "changing" things?"
Please remember, I believe Bruce Lee was forced to either adapt (modify what he knew.) or stopped training altogether. And remember Bruce's goal was to become the best fighter possible. Sence he did not have a teacher any more (in the U.S.) he had to become his own teacher.
Again I will ask,
I believe it (Bruce's modifications ) all had to do with his sense of touch, and sensitivity, to incoming energy.
How do you see it?
And how DO you believe he applied it?
"By my lying eyes" purpose Was to explore new and different ways, of training. As well as difference in concerts. ( Like traping.)

okay let's look at traping. What is it? And how is it done?
Do you believe in check type of traping?
OR do you try to dis- balance your opponent,(remove his base, so that he cannot move or respond to your attack, for the moment your traping.)
And after the trap can you maintain control? Things like that! Is what I am looking for. (I personally don't care if Bruce Lee was a quarter German or Hispanic, it doesn't matter.) LETS get into the meat and potatoes, and skip desert altogether. I want to explore different ideas, and ways of doing things.
Looking forward to your response.
Sincerely yours C.A.G.

Sensei Kunz

05-26-2002, 04:27 PM

I believe that sensitivity leads to checking, trapping (immobilization), grappling, takedowns and groundwork! It is all keeping your opponent off-balance or to flow with his energy and movement. It is one of the most important aspects in training for self-defense. Without it, then your a sitting duck on your own legs. The majority of fights or encounters of combat will end up with someone with their hands on somebody, unless of course, they are taken down on the first few hits. Street fighting is never planned and totally unexpected in an opponents reaction. There are also many factors involving combat in the streets such as the surrounding enviroment. It is easy to practice in the school with safety and security, however, it means nothing in the streets.

Keep up the fight!

Sensei Kunz

curtis

05-26-2002, 07:21 PM

Sensei Kunz
thank you for respond.
Do you believe in immobilizing traps? Every Jeet Kune Do person I've dealt with only used checking type of traps. As a matter-of-fact, the only people I've ever known that used immobilizing traps, were people from Bruce Lee's early fighting period.
My understanding was, with the integration of Filipino arts into Jeet Kune Do. the checking type of trap was the most preferred. (which makes sense, sense most Filipino arts use knives, one small cut an your dead. Or at least bleed to death.)
Sensitivity in the form of traping, allows me to feel what the opponent is about to do. Which makes it Easy for me to feel and redirect (or dis- balance) my opponent, into a position which is not favorable to him.
I do not believe that all flights go to the ground. (A myth that was started by the Gracie's)
Please do not misunderstand. Ground fighting is a very affective form of fighting . And should not be overlooked in your training.
But for a street fight, I do not believe the ground is the place to go. Plus with the popularity of ground fighting today, the chances are, that the opponent would be more skilled than myself on the ground.
As a general rule I do not want to fight someone else on their own terms. (That's called a sport.) self-defense has no rules except for survival.
Let me explain that like this. You do not want to box a boxer, or grapple a grappler, that would be foolish. When I fight I must fight my own fight. If my opponent can make me do what he wants, then I'd be fighting his fight. ( I'll lose ,and that is not acceptable.) when I fight, I will attempt to remove my opponent's head. (At least that's what he believes.) If he stops me from hitting him, then I'd trap him, if he doesn't try to stop me,"WELL" then he loses his head.:) either way . I win!
Please also note if I half to fight, it is life or death, and that's the way I see it, it's not a game. And I plan to survive!
Now learning the art of traping is not fighting. It is the attempt to become a master. (To strive to achieve my personal best) and that is an entirely different story. (THE story that I hope we can all learn and share information from on this fourm.)
Sincerely C.A.G.

Sensei Kunz

05-26-2002, 08:16 PM

Everyone has their own prefrences regarding using what is useful to each person. The last thing I would want to do is go to the ground in a street fight situation. However, if I am caught off guard, then I am prepared. I am a strong believer in self-defense in a life ar death situation as you stated, however again, there are circumstances that do not warrant taking someones life for stupid actions. This is of course, a decision that must be made prior, if time allows, in certain situations. Meaning, there is a loud mouth drunk who obvioulsy cannot physically control his balance or his moutth and yet is very offensive to your family and places his hand on your person. It would be wise to take him to the ground with pain and not death. Beleive it or not, there are laws in every State that a jury will convict for your verdict of death in a controlled confrontation. I was a police officer for six years and in the bodyguard business for some more years and know these as facts.

I also truly believe that every martial artist should know control and extreme defense. This is why we have brains as humans and are expected to use them. I only use immobilization techniques that will control my opponent for grappling and takedowns. Yes, I also use the check system through the filipino arts.

I am not familiar with Gracie's ways or his beliefs. these are just my personal experiences in many street confgrontaions I have been involved in over many years. I also know that there are many martial artist that have been training for years and could not fight thier way out of a paper bag. To me, it is very upsetting!

The American ways again has corrupted the martial arts in many areas due to commercialization and B.S. through television, movies and unexperience instructors who have no idea of what truth is in the arts.

Sorry, I guess I got off the main subject. My mind may ramble from time to time. LOL!

You may want to check out "Article of the Month" on Use of Force on my website! then you might get a better understanding?

Talk to you later!

Sensei Kunz

curtis

05-27-2002, 06:49 AM

Of course.
As an adult I must choose and make the best decision possible for the circumstance.
There is such thing as excessive force. And if the person goes down and I continued beating him, then I am wrong. I wouldn't stand a chance in a court of law. But on the other hand if I felt my life was in danger, or the life of my loved ones, then a quick and violent attack would be justified. (Added advantage in the court of law is. Most Americans have a sense of fair play. As long as I don't break the unsaid code of fair play, I stand in much better light, then if I would. If I kicked the man, when he was down. So to speak.)
Your analysis of the drunken attacker, may be valid. Although is that a fight for life? Or is it just in honor thing?
I too train for many different circumstances. I use small circle jujitsu (for pain compliance) I also dabble with ground fighting, just in case. But that's all part of the art side of things . I not saying I won't or cant use the art. All I am saying is, when the chips are down. I must clean up the mess as quickly as possible.
"I personally would be rather tried by 12, rather than carried by 6."
Granted if you live in the inner city, and or go to the bars late at night. The chances of getting into a confrontation are greatly increased. But if you live a civil life. And keep an eye out for trouble. Then chances are, the situation may never happen.
"Power for peace" OR " to walk tall, and carry a big stick" are two phrases that come to mind.
Have a good day.
C.A.G.

greendragon

06-13-2002, 04:31 PM

don't know much about WC but in my training in TCMA we develop "listening energy" and do some blindfolded training.

curtis

06-13-2002, 05:27 PM

Green dragon
wow! Thats Kool. We have drills that we call listening drills as well. The purpose of these drills are to feel what the opponent is doing (more or less, the secondarys movements are telling you what he is going to do.) it is amazing, what you can understand if you just listen/feel.
Can you explain in more detail how you perform these listening drills?
I will try to explain our drills do you as well.
Have good night , l will talk do you later.
C.A.G.

curtis

06-14-2002, 02:45 PM

Green dragon
listening drills, are exercises that we use, for the purpose of identifying and refining sensitivity. By using the sense of touch, you can feel what the opponent is doing, by increasing your sensitivity you can feel and stop an opponent before he actually moves. Another purpose for sensitivity is to feel where the opponents base is ,and to keep him from regaining his balance after he has lost it. (After all one who does not have a base, cannot create power. No matter how strong they may be, without a base they will be weak.)
So you ask, how do you train for the sensitivity?
There is a basic exercise that explains this concept.
Have your secondary point towards your centerline. Tell him no matter what. Always try to point towards the centerline. (One small notes, the secondary must only use arm energy. Body energy can be used later in other exercises, but not for this exercise.)
As the primary you will touch the secondaries wrist, your touch will take the secondaries fingers slightly off your centerline. When the secondary changes his angle back to the centerline, you will release his energy. (Maintain contact at all times.) You will see that the secondary will slightly over shoot his mark, with very small movements from you, you can redirect his energy away from your centerline. Each time he adjusts his angle he will over shoot his goal by a larger margin. He will find that,every time you redirect his energy, he over shoots more and more, soon he will find that he is actually losing his balance as he redirects his energy trying to get back to the center.
This is a great exercise. You'll find that neither you or the secondary will be quite sure on who is moving who.
By using minimal amount of effort, you can see/feel where the secondary is going to move. By redirecting, restricting his movements, and leting the secondary move where he wants to move, he will find, that you can. Easily keep him off his base.
I said the concept is very easy to understand. Putting it in the application can be rather trying. But it's a lot of fun!:)
Good luck in your training.
Sincerely yours C.A.G.