MA being street effective!

[red_fists]

Hey all.

It feels as if this newage fad of MA being "street effective" & "self defense" originated from the US.
Not sure if it is a McDojo syndrome or not.

Now before I start t upset People, and I am planning on doing so. ;)
Yes, ONE of the goals why I study MA is so that I can use it when I need to.
But this WHOLE deal of:
1.) Increasing your punching speed
2.) Toughening your whole Body
3.) Learning street effective fighting
4.) Which is the most effective MA or technique.

Is plain nonsensical ego and defeats the object.
MA canmake a Fighter into a better Fighter, it cannot turn somebody into a Figher that has no disposition towards it.

So all the Guys that think that MA will make them into a deadly fighting force, need to wake up and do a reality check.

Fastest Punch, deadliest technique, etc mean nothing if you do not use them.
Yes, I see plenty of people here that daydream of winning 200 fights, collecting 500 Trophies, getting chicks by being tough.
Living under the illusion that their MA trainig will protect them during a mucking,etc.

Yes, MA is used for fighting.
1.) Either for military forces
2.) As a way of protecting your belongings.
But the ancients that used them had a completely different mindset from the modern MA "Tough Guy".
Back than it was a case of win or die/be crippled for the rest of your life.

I have seen MA-trained People and non-MA trained people fight, and to be brutally honest there is very little difference between them.
Neither is pretty, impressive nor glorious, both are aimed a winning and getting out of the confrontation.
So to all the Guys that think that MA trained Fighters are superior and automatic winners in a confrontation. wake up and smell the Blood.

MA might give you an advantage in a real fight. Regardless if you covered the 4 corners in the circle.
Ok, Guys flame on.
I am here waiting to be ripped to shreds.

[Ryu]

YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!! :mad:

;) Nah, actually I agree with you. (Where did that come from anyway? Something happen today?)

Well I for one am definitely a man who is looking for realistic ways of protecting myself through martial art. Much of that research has taken me to the stuff I'm training now. However, because of the reality of my training I am very well aware of how unrealistic the whole "tough guy bravado" stuff really is. For most that kind of attitude just masks a scared little boy. For me, I am now much more aware of how human we all are, and how mortal we as martial artists are. This is why I don't necessarily think I can beat up a big strong guy bent on my destruction just because I train realistically.....it's because I train realistically that I have my healthy doubts! :D But that doesn't mean it's not possible. And that I wouldn't spend time learning how to fight.

I think the "internet' makes things look worse than they are...especially stuff you see from BJJ/NHB guys, "reality" guys, etc.
In reality, I think everyone is trying to get good at what they do, and all have different motivations for training. That's fine.

I very much hold to the "traditonal values" of the martial artist.
But my physical training has become very "modern" I suppose you can say.
But that doesn't mean I dive into a world of tough guy garbage.
I couldn't live that way anyway. It's not my personality.

Ryu

[Qi dup]

I hear what your saying, and for the most part I agree. I think most everone on this board will too. Everyone is going to have to come to such a realization. Let me ask you this, what defines a person as a 'fighter?' You said MA makes fighters better fighters but if your not a fighter than your SOL? So if i'm a said 'not fight' am I better off not learning MA? Or will I just never amount to anything? I wouldn't consider myself a fight. I have been in fights, I have done what it takes to win. But I don't like fighting. So shall I just lay down and die next time? I guess i'm jumping to a lot of conclusions here, I'm not trying to be stand offish. I think everyone has some fight in them when the right bottons are pushed. Therefore I think just about anyone can take benifits from MA training.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Ryu

;) Nah, actually I agree with you. (Where did that come from anyway? Something happen today?
Actually I spoke to one of my old Biking Buddies back in SA.

And we somehow got yapping about MA being used in fights and how they would stand up to a proper Biker fight.

Let me also say, that I had MA Buddies that got killed in pub fights(1 punch) and so on.

Same token I have seen Guys take the leaded end of a Pool stick to their mouth and teeth, wipe the blood off and throw the Guy down 3 flights of stairs. No "Iron xxxx" Skills there.

I myself took 5 full blown shots with a Baseball bat and walked away after asking the Guys if they were finished (sore & blue for 1 week afterwards)
as I simply didn't want to fight that night. At that time I had not learned any form of Qi-Gong.

Also a lot of people forget that the ancient MA Fighters were either professional Soldiers or in Fighters for hire or assigned to protect their villages so that village life could go on and support them.
Plenty of MA earned theri living by selling healing potions and were poor and most of the times not welcome when they showed up.
It also gets me when modern day MA students idolize and have inflated images of ancient Masters and their achievement.
Greatest changes to the Systems were done in peace times and not during times of strife.

MA were the exception NOT the rule and most of them were a bit crazy and not nice People.
As one of my older Instructors always said:
"Only the good fighters survived, the rest were left behind on the Battle field."
One of my JMA Instructors always said:
"There is no honour, fairness in a fight, there is only the honour of how you accept defeat or victory."

In plain english, once you get into a fight you do whatever is needed to win, and that might mean dumping your MA training/skills out the window to do so.

Yeah, I know that rubs the traditionalists the wrong way.
But one high ranked MA Master was killed in a drive by shooting. Nobody wanted to get close to him.

[red_fists]

Hi Qi-dup.

I see a diff. between a Fighter and a Person that defends itself.

Through all the ages the Fighters were the people that took the risks and got paid for it.
May the be called, Army, Police, Specials Forces, SWAT Teams, local milita, Village Defenders, etc.

And MA was designed for those people, not for the average Joe Farmer in the field. Yes, the Famres also took up Weapons, but only as last resort.

And, PLEAASSEE, don't tell me about Okinawa, To-Te was trained by the aristocrats and Military leaders not the peasants. And yes there is prof, msot of the Masters were high ranked Military officers.

But in modern day too many people think that they are the 2nd-coming of YLC, Miyamoto Musashi, etc.
Said that I don't like fighting myself, but I enjoy the training I get by studying MA. Yes, I have used those skills in a fight.

But I will NEVEr consider myself a fighter as this takes a full-time commitment to the MA.

Anyhuh, time to jump of the Box

[Tinman]

I have seen scuffels
scuffels of people who don't know how to fight and people who do.

Karate might not be as pretty as Kung Fu
But in a situation such as this
being direct and to the point is what counts

When someone takes you off guard, you want to know the best,quickest,most direct response to overcomming the situation.

This is Karate.No time to think, just do it

[red_fists]

Hi Tinman.

That is not only Kara-te, but the result of any proper MA/Fighting training.

Same has been used to sell any MA from Shao-Lin via Tai Chi to Kali.

[Ryu]

"In plain english, once you get into a fight you do whatever is needed to win, and that might mean dumping your MA training/skills out the window to do so."

Well people might disagree, but I see combat itself as "martial art" That quote up there is my exact philosophy on martial arts, and that's why I've come to train the way I do.
(someone once said it didn't seem like a "Ryu" thing to do to kick someone in the head when they were on the ground...)
Fighting is fighting, I've come out of the idealization of Bruce Lee and amazing martial arts skills that allow me to be superhuman...

Now I consider using a baseball bat martial arts. If you take a billard ball and slam it into someone face, that's also martial arts.

The true essence of the "martial artist" I guess in my opinion is not the physical fighting skill (although that's part of it) the real essence of it in my mind is in the mentality, humility, benevolence, etc.

In my stories I have two characters who possess very Buddhist/monk-like qualities. These characters hold to the mentality and "honor" of the "traditional" code, but when they fight they fight to win. They will headbutt, sucker punch, tackle, ground and pound, knife fight, pick up a bat and smash someone, use a gun to subdue someone, etc.
Their physical skills are very "real world" (and I don't make them superhuman either...they can get hurt just like anyone else) But the point is just because they fight like a "streetfighter" doesn't mean that they have a terrible attitude, go around being bullies, etc.

To me the time to really stress the "warrior morality" is for those whose skills really are "real world" etc.
I may not agree with some of the attitudes of say a Tito Ortiz or Sammy Franco, etc. But if their skills do the job and promote "reality awareness" then they must be doing something right.

Because of who I am...I cannot try for realistic fighting skill without cultivating moral character, reality awareness, humility, etc.

Theres' just too many variables out there. You don't have to curl up and die :) But don't take yourself too seriously either...

Ryu

[red_fists]

Hi Ryu.

Similar to you I see MA training as a preparation for a fight, not as the rules or the ultimate method to fight.

Yes, I can and have used some techniques I learned, but I guess they were not textbook executions. :P

In the end everybody will fight using his "own" style/skill, whatever it may be and whatever it may contain.

Yes, being able to do 105 high kicks nonstop is impressive,but has no real world application (poke at the karate Guys), it only shows that you have trained your Body control & fitness to a high degree.

Seeya.

[Tinman]

Thanks Mr. Story man
Is there a point to get to?

[jon]

Hi red_fists i hope your well.
Im going to respectfully disagree with how i percieve your post.
I certainly respect your views and know from experience you have a good mind and know what your talking about.
However...
Ive run into this a LOT as well particualy over on the internal formums. Im of the 'combat orientated' tribe and yet i study cma both internal and external. Im also in quite a unique position of being able to study full time and having a sifu who is of the old school of thought.
Ok off with the disclaimers and on to the debate:D

"MA canmake a Fighter into a better Fighter, it cannot turn somebody into a Figher that has no disposition towards it."
* We as martial artists should not seek to become 'fighters' we should seek to become 'warriors' there is a BIG difference. A fighters fights, a warrior stands up for beliefs and refuses to be threatened with physical violence for them. I dont think of myself as a fighter but i also dont abide for fools and i WILL stick my head in when i deem it appropriate. I also like to spar with various other arts and enjoy combat in a broad sence. However i dont like the idea that this somehow makes me a non rightous person. Infact its quite the opposite, my skills in my hands have led to myself being more open about what i believe in. I can only see this as a good thing.

"So all the Guys that think that MA will make them into a deadly fighting force, need to wake up and do a reality check."
* This is a 'little' presumptious, really martial arts are partly designed to turn people into skilled fighters. We are not just born with a natural ability to fight well infact our reflexs for fighting are generaly poor when there untrained, its all aquired knowledge.
Trust me when i say im a LOT better at fighting now than i was 6 years ago and i could attribute 80% of it to good practice and 20% of it to finding good training partners.
Your comment reads as though you do not believe that martial arts can turn a poor fighter into a skilled one and i would have to argue that point.

"Fastest Punch, deadliest technique, etc mean nothing if you do not use them."
* Knowledge=Power. Sure you need to practice but if a surgen doesnt know where to cut simply being able to wont help. Its a two edged sword.

"Living under the illusion that their MA trainig will protect them during a mucking,etc."
* It can, but as well should all know its not always wise to fight back rather just hand over your cash, your martial arts training proberly taught you many of your views towards combat.
Then again if im attacked by someone trying to cut me BEFORE they ask for my wallet what then?

I wont keep picking out various points but i still have to say you come accross as though you dont respect those of us who are combat orientated. I dont do it becouse i want to beat people up and i havent compeated in years, i do spar a LOT and i dont mind copping a punch in the spirit of learning. The reason i do it is becouse i enjoy it, nothing more nothing less. I dont seek fame and i certainly dont want to ever be forced to hurt someone badly but that doesnt mean i cant enjoy learning about combat and how it applies to my internal study.
Honestly i WOULD be interested in my health if it werent for one minor problem...
Im 24 male, slight build, fit and i enjoy going out with my friends once in a while and losing the plot;)
When i beguin to need to worry about my health i will but untill that day im enjoying focussing on the combat aspects and letting my mind revolve around those.
I enjoy pool for the same reason i enjoy combat, applied physics to movement. Its not so hard to understand really:D
All the best
Jon

[Ryu]

I pretty much agree. It can have real world application if you use it and train it with real world application. But again, there's many variables that come into play.

By the way, when is "White Day"? (Japanese valentine's where guys give girls presents?) It's March 14th right?
(I'm sending some stuff to a friend)

Ryu

[Ryu]

Uhhhh...are you talking to me, Tinman?

No point. I like stories. :D


And my martial art is better than yours. :p

Ryu

[Tinman]

Congradulations on another long boring BOOK you just wrote.

I know I know
He's been here before windows 95
with over 2000 posts.the right to be boring.

[Tinman]

sorry
one thousand for hundred and something

[red_fists]

Hi Jon.

I respect people that study "Combat orientated" MA for what they are.

I don't respect the Guys that go overly tough and macho, most of them will look for the best punching bag, best shoes, etc. and completely overlook that it is the proper training/attitude and not the tool that creates the skill.

Same with modern day weight training, most System got their own methods for dealing with them, but they rather push weigths in a Gym, flex muscls in front of chicks and holler that they are now improving their MA.
Rather than use the old methods.

I also deliberately didn't go into the Warrior/Fighter split as the people I see are neither, but fighter is closer to what they do.
Said that I have found the same to be true in many aspects of Life.
Too many people look for tools/technqiues to guarantee succes without realising that the best tool/technique is only as good as the person using it.

I ofen hear People studying MA, but they are afraid of hurting people or getting hurt themselves and NO MA training will take that fear away only self-realisation will do so.
Anyhuh, time to get the gloves off for Tinman.

[red_fists]

By the way, when is "White Day"? (Japanese valentine's where guys give girls presents?) It's March 14th right?
(I'm sending some stuff to a friend)
Ryu

Sorry, needed to look it up myself.
Us married folks don't celebrate anymore.

Yep, March 14. Remember it needs to cost atleast 3 times of what she gave him. And be white of course. :)

[Ryu]

Tinman's incredible powers of deductive logic and reason have rendered any attempts of intellectual rebuttle sheer pooey. :D

If you don't like it, put me on your ignore list, Daniel-San. All you do is harp on Karate.

(no offense to Budokan with that Daniel-san comment. ;) )

Ryu

[Ryu]

3 times as much.... :( sigh...... :D

Thanks, red_fists. I'll make sure to mark it on my calendar.

Ryu

[red_fists]

Ryu.

He should be lucky that he is not getting engaged.

Engagement rings are usually 3+ times his monthly income. :rolleyes:

[jon]

Whilst i did not totaly agree with your first few posts i could not agree with you more on your last:)

I just leave that crowd to there own devices, they dont last in my Hung class becouse they cant be bothered with stance and they simply cant believe Bagau is even combat so i dont have that problem either:)

The funny part is...
I met a whole bunch of mixed martial arts guys only this week all of whom studied a mixture of Thai Boxing kung fu and wrestling.
They were not exactly impressive, they where certainly not bad and had some good skills but they had nothing really solid and seemed to lack a sence of realisim even for mma.
I strangely came to traditional styles becouse the combat approch i was shown to them [thanks to my hung sifu] was so supperior to anything i had seen before i simply couldnt leave without finding out more about it. Ive also told this story before but im one of the fools that challenged there sifus skills upon meeting them and saw the results first hand. As you say we all have a different attraction and although i really do delve a lot into the energy and health aspects my main focusses are actualy the history and the combat.
hehe still errr i dont train infront of mirrors in a singlet grunting at my own image whilst lifting heavy weights REALLY slowly. So dont see me that way ok:) Im just a young stupid guy who likes to play
:D

[red_fists]

Originally posted by jon
Im just a young stupid guy who likes to play
:D

Better than an old slop(35yrs) like me.

Guys, don't get married, it ruins those washboard abs and adds Kg's to your Body.

But than lifting/swingingplaying with your small children trains the body like hell. :)


Currently trying to get back down in size and weight. Not sure about weight though, might have to live with being 5,8 and 200+, funny most People reckon I am around 165~176.

Seeya.

P.S.: It is true what they say about sex after Marriage. :D

[respectmankind]

In the modern world, many people seem to think MA training means you have all these great powers. Yes it can raise your awareness, but if someone is sneaking quietly behind you with a knife, your 20 years of MA training isn't gonna make you doing a spinning back kick when you have no idea at what position he is at. Being in MA, everyone of you should know that a punch, from a big guy who does MA, and a punch from a big guy who doesn't is a still a god**** punch. I never mention I practice MA anymore because people try to test me, liek throw a fake punch at me. Why the hell should I have my gaurd up if this person is my friend and I am not threatened by them? But I gaurante, whenever they come at me and I react that see how easily they would have died. For me, MA is about teh most effective method of crippling the opponent. The fastes attack, the most brutal strikes. All of these ofcoarse is founded with knowledge, but no matter how much you know about MA, and how much you study, a hard strike in your head will make you step back.

[fightfan]

"I myself took 5 full blown shots with a Baseball bat and walked away after asking the Guys if they were finished (sore & blue for 1 week afterwards)
as I simply didn't want to fight that night. At that time I had not learned any form of Qi-Gong."

PLEASE tell me how you did that!
:confused:
That doesnt sound very true my man.

[Braden]

Ok, I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe I'm out of context... but that baseball bat thing... dude, what are you smoking?

[red_fists]

Here are the locations.
2 Right Arm
1 Lower rear rip
1 Left Thigh
1 Semi-deflected on right wrist/forearm.

Maybe having had a few Drinks also helped, as the Body tends to be looser and more relaxed. The others were also a bit on the woozy side.

I was always taught to counter incoming blows by being loose & relaxed, as tensing multiplies the damage.Yes, I walked/limped home and soaked for 2 Hours in a HOT HOT Bath.
Had problem getting on the Bike next Day. :)

BTW, in the Country where it happened those Bats are Weapons as hardly anybody plays baseball. :)

[Braden]

I'm not exactly clear as to what you mean when you say you didn't do anything because you didn't feel like fighting. Unless you were on copius amounts of psilocybe.

[red_fists]

Hi Braden.

It was 02:00am, I had a few Drinks and was on the way home from the Disco.
It was a short walking distance and all I wanted was to get some shuteye before I hit the Office.

I was packing at that time, and just didn't feel that those 2 Idiots were worth fighting(esp. since I was not a native of that Country).
So I took a couple of hits, walked home.

Heck, all 3 were not the most sober, and I figured this way the least damage to me.

Normally, I am a very peaceful Person and try to get out of a fight with the least hassle.

This does not mean that I would not have fought if it would have gotten serious.
I know a lot of ego-orientated MA can't understand that reasoning.

[Braden]

I understand the reasoning. I don't understand what 'serious' would entail if strangers attacking you full force with baseball bats repeated times doesn't count.

[red_fists]

Braden.

Those Guys were out to see how "tough" a MA Guy was.

Those Blows didn't come that fast, they were more checking when I would quiet.

After 5 I asked them if they now thought I was tough enough and coud go home.

It was not a serious attack, or direct thread on my life.

Plus, I am used to being hit with sticks from my external MA training. :)

[Braden]

I guess your perspective is a world apart from mine.

I would never feel the need to prove how tough I was to someone, regardless of the circumstances. And I would never make a judgement call on the lethality of a situation - preferring always to err on the side of self-preservation.

[red_fists]

Braden.

I looked at it this way:
1.) I m Drunk.
2.) There are 2 of them.
3.) If I fight I most probably will get serious Injuries, if not killed.

So I choose the most predicable outcome, where I still remain a certain degree of control.

Yes, it was a gamble, but than so is every fighting situation you get into.

And every fighting situation regardless of factors can be fatal to you or them.

All confrontation have the x-factor that can make it lethal, there is nothing like a lethal or a non-lethal confrontation. The potential is always there.

Again, the aim was to get it over with and go home.
Not about proofing how tough I am, nor anything else.

If the wanted toughness I would have asked them to try it on "Tiny" the yougnest of 4 Brothers I used to ride with.

Self-preservation/Self Defense does not mean kicking the crap out of those 2 Guys, but to make sure I get home in one piece. And that I did, besides those Guys also carried.

[red_fists]

Braden.

I looked at it this way:
1.) I m Drunk.
2.) There are 2 of them.
3.) If I fight I most probably will get serious Injuries, if not killed.

So I choose the most predicable outcome, where I still remain a certain degree of control.

Yes, it was a gamble, but than so is every fighting situation you get into.

And every fighting situation regardless of factors can be fatal to you or them.

All confrontation have the x-factor that can make it lethal, there is nothing like a lethal or a non-lethal confrontation. The potential is always there.

Again, the aim was to get it over with and go home.
Not about proofing how tough I am, nor anything else.

If the wanted toughness I would have asked them to try it on "Tiny" the yougnest of 4 Brothers I used to ride with.

Self-preservation/Self Defense does not mean kicking the crap out of those 2 Guys, but to make sure I get home in one piece. And that I did, besides those Guys also carried.

But can I ask you something, is fighting them to beat them not a proove of how "tough" you are. Maybe not to you, but to them and everybody else.

Which gathers more respect in your opponent:
1.) Putting them into Hospital and you posible into Jail.
2.) Taking a few Hits and walking away.
There are different types of "tough", for me the most difficult one is being "tough enough" not too fight.

[Braden]

I agree with everything you said completely. I just don't understand how that reasoning lead you to the decision you made.

For example, you're taking a short cut to meet some friends at a pub. On the way, you pass by a couple youths in an alley, they call you over, asking for the time, a smoke, where you're going, if you want to buy an weed, if you want to sell any weed... What do you do, engage them verbally/physically because you don't want to anger them? What if they start yelling and it looks like you ignoring them is ****ing them off? Then you're even more likely to walk up and talk to them? Man, I hope not.

[red_fists]

Braden.

Baaad Example.

I would not get into that situation.
1.) My Bike normally parks outside the Pub.
2.) I don't walk down alley's I don't know
3.) I am hardly ever late for an appointment.
But the above scenario should never happen to a trained MA. Unless he is looking for a fight.

FWIW.
Those Guys were not unknown to me, nor I do them. Otherwise they wouldn't have known that I practice MA.
I have seen them a few times before at Discos and pubs I go to.
I normally don't wear my MA gear to the Disco. Or swing Weapons on the Dane floor.

[Braden]

*boggle*

You're telling me straight-faced that a properly trained martial artist will never be in a situation where they are alone and approached by a couple potential assailants, but they will be in a situation where they're alone and approached by a couple who's idea of recreation is hitting other people with baseball bats?

How odd. An explanation of either of those positions would be remarkable to hear.

[red_fists]

Braden.

Okay, lets take it slow.

1.) Any Person trained in "awareness" should never be caught in an alley approached by a few strangers.
Awareness training is a major part of MA, it is used to identify potential trouble areas and how to avoid/defuse those.

If your MA doesn't teach that I am worried about it's "street effictiveness".

Some call it "6th Sense" or "Combat sense", same thing different packaging.

Most MA training is useless if you are not aware of your surroundings.
2.) Those Guys most probably followed me from the Disco, I was not fully paying attention to my surroundings.
Like I said sleepy, too many Beers & Stalingrads.

Yep, my bad and I paid for it.

Satisfied. :)

[Braden]

Awareness has nothing to do with 'not being caught in an alley with two strangers,' it has to do with how you react to it. All the awareness training in the world isn't going to magically transport me, my work, my school, where I shop, and all my friends out of the slums, hand me a key to a new Lexus, and imbue me with such popularity that I am never alone.

Proper awareness WILL, however, enable me to NOT engage physically/verbally/attentively these possible assailants, and to keep them out of my 'critical distance' - which is EXACTLY what my point was.

It's also exactly what you failed to do in your example. I brought my example up in the first place as part of an argument by analogy. I knew you would grant the point about awareness for my example, and I knew this would force you to also grant it about your example - which is contrary to your previous assertions that you reacted ideally. So, yes, I am satisfied. :)

As an aside, I'm fairly convinced that no martial art training in the entire world adequately trains this kind of awareness.

[Shooter]

:p

[red_fists]

[QUOTE]
Awareness has nothing to do with 'not being caught in an alley with two strangers,' it has to do with how you react to it.

Here we disagree. By the time those Guys holler to you or surround you your "awareness" has already failed.


All the awareness training in the world isn't going to magically transport me, my work, my school, where I shop, and all my friends out of the slums, hand me a key to a new Lexus, and imbue me with such popularity that I am never alone.

No it will not do that, but it will show you the "real" situation and after that it is up to you to do something about it.
Move House, Job, etc.

Proper awareness WILL, however, enable me to NOT engage physically/verbally/attentively this possible assailants, and to keep them out of my 'critical distance' - which is EXACTLY what my point was.

Again you are talking awareness once the situation has arisen, I am talking about awareness before it even comes to that point.

In short before you even walk down the road where the problem might arise.

But in South Africa I needed a lot of awareness to avoid possible hi-jacking and mugging spots.
And I also needed to be aware at unavoidable spots like Traffic lights at night, etc. People around my House,etc.

Living there has opened my Eyes a lot.

As an aside, I'm fairly convinced that no martial art training in the entire world adequately trains this kind of awareness.

For me it was part of sensory training and medidation in 3 styles JMA & CMA.

What is adequate??

[Braden]

"Here we disagree. By the time those Guys holler to you or surround you your 'awareness' has already failed."

As for the 'hollering' part, that is just patently false - I highly doubt any awareness training enables you to deny other's ability to holler, or exert control over how, when, and where they holler. As for the 'surrounding' part, I agree completely that at that point your awareness has failed; however note that I never said how will you react when surrounded.

"No it will not do that, but it will show you the 'real' situation and after that it is up to you to do something about it.
Move House, Job, etc."

How much money appears in your bank account for each circle you circlewalk? I must be doing it wrong, because I haven't gotten a cent yet. Maybe I should drop out of school, ditch all my friends, change the work that I love, and change the clothes and music that I love in the name of martial arts. Or maybe I ascribe to a taoist saying on the issue, paraphrased: "If the first concern of your martial arts is defense of self; then the first requirement of your training methods must be that they are beneficial or at least neutral to that self."

That said, if anyone wants to pay me to circlewalk, please contact me; details in my profile. ;)

"Again you are talking awareness once the situation has arisen, I am talking about awareness before it even comes to that point."

No I'm not and no you're not. I hope the first part of this post clarified your misapprehensions. If not, tell me what you don't understand.

"For me it was part of sensory training and medidation in 3 styles JMA & CMA."

I will grant you that some of the methods in the internal arts are useful for the kinds of things we're discussing. However, I will not grant that they're a replacement for the ability to percieve and control 'critical ranges' that you might call 'street smarts,' nor that they will spontaneously generate this ability.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Braden
which is contrary to your previous assertions that you reacted ideally.

WRONG, I still say I reacted ideally in THAT situation.
Yes, I made a mistake, but fighting them would have mean I made possible more mistakes.

Were more options available to me, you bet, but I decided not to take them.
Would I react the same if the situation arose again, I can only tell you after I have been there.

You see my World is NOT Black & White, Good vs. Evil.
My perception of a situation is not fixed, but will change as the situation unrolls.
And once I made a Decision I never regret it, yep, will learn from it though.
The same way I have no fixed ideas/pre-conceptions on how I will react in a given situation.

[Braden]

Anyway: It was nice speaking with you. Good night.

[red_fists]

As for the 'hollering' part, that is just patently false - I highly doubt any awareness training enables you to deny other's ability to holler, or exert control over how, when, and where the holler.

You don't want to get my point.
They can't holler to me as I will not be in that alley. Awareness will have shown me NOT to walk down that alley.


How much money appears in your bank account for each circle you circlewalk? I must be doing it wrong, because I haven't gotten a cent yet.

MA training doesn't pay me, but having had a good education and working a 65,000$ Job helps. And that is without University, I started working at 17.

I will grant you that some of the methods in the internal arts are useful for the kinds of things we're discussing.

Granted there were some external MA as well that I studied. I am not talking the awareness trained in "Rolling Hands" or "Push Hands".

I am talking a type of awareness that needs to be trained seperate from the standard Internal MA Curriculum.
I.e.: Not forms, Tui Shou or Qi-Gong.

It takes about 5 weeks to get the initial sensory training down and than you work actively 24hrs a day on your awareness.
This is also coupled with a specific type of meditation that trains the mind.
This was a strong part of a JMA system I studied.

[red_fists]

Hi Braden.

Maybe we are talking from 2 very different viewpoints.
Unfortunately your Profile here does not say much besides the MA you train.
And from some of your other posts, I get that you have a rather unique viewpoint on MA.

Personally, I don't see MA as a must when I get into a situation.
More often than not I can sort confrontation out more by experience than relying on MA Skills.

Fighting for me is a last resort when all other Options have failed.
Most of the times having a cool head and good awareness will get you through most problem spots.

MA may it be Aikido, Taijutsu, Shaolin, awareness Training and my current Tai Chi are simply tools in my survival chest to be used when needed.

MA does not rule my life, even though it is a major part of it. But Family and earning money have to rank higher than MA.

Said that my JOB supplies Money for MA training, in return MA training keeps me fit and mentally alert to assist me in my Job.
It can also keep me/Family from being mugged /beaten up and thus able to work.
By working well I can support a Family I love and in return they love and support me in my MA training.

So how can your MA training help you get out of the "slum", by giving you health, skills/assistance to do your Job well and earn plenty of money.
Which in turn allows you to move, train further,etc.

It is all interlinked, Success is not just a good paycheck, some trophies, loving Family but the quality of Life that you live.

Truly successful people are succesfull in anything they undertake, as their undertakings are interwoven and supporting each other.

The same in MA training, all parts of your training need to be there and working together.

Anyhuh, have a good one.