tai chi and wing chun

[churn-ging]

hi all.

i was just wondering if anyone on here has ever practiced these two arts together? i am considering taking tai chi soon but was wondering if learning wing chun at the same time will affect my tai chi training. or vice versa.

since wing chun is more linear and triangular based, where as tai chi is more circular based, i was wondering if the two arts would be conflicting to each other or whether or not it would hurt my training in either art?

[Sam Wiley]

I doubt they would interfere with each other. As long as you keep them separate you should be fine. I don't practice WC, but it doesn't seem to be too differentto Taiji. I have a friend who practices WC, and I showed him a few techniques out of the Puachui form, and he commented that one of the postures called Step Left and Lift Hands (an application of the posture Lift Hands from the Taiji form) looked a lot like a WC technique. Also, I have noticed that the inside turning change from Bagua resembles a WC move, though I can't recall the name. So WC isn't really all that different than the internal arts.

[taijiquan_student]

I could be completely way off here, but I heard that in WC there are some things they practice without moving their waist, or using some sort of equipment that keeps them from using their waist. I maybe very wrong here, but if this is true, then it is very different then in taiji, where everything comes from the waist.

[vingtsunstudent]

the waist is a very important part of wing chun, at least it is in the wong shun leung method.
vts

[once ronin]

good tai chi will use only the body and dan tien, good wing chun will also follow.

siu lim tao, in the salm bai fut is to run your energy, with little thought, when people try to over analize this this they get confused. siu lim tao can be done and should be done with the same theories of good tai chi. remeber yip man held back many things but everyone knows yip man himself played siu lim tao 1 hour a day everyday.

fine someone who teaches from the ng kung yee linage of tai chi you will understand this if your teacher does not hold back.

[Zantesuken]

i do both. they're similar in some ways cept for one major thing. in wc you push your bum in so that also gives your stepping in that forward power.

in tc you gotta sink your tan tien so it's sorta the opposite. i had to unlearn it so now my wc's all geh'ed up

[churn-ging]

In the wing chun that I learn, the waist plays an important part too. The first form is done from a stationary position, so that would lead some to think that the waist isn't used. Also, in my lineage, we believe that you should get used to using your hands first before you use your waist. So usually we stand in the basic horse stance for a while and do chi sau before we learn to add the waist and stance turning in to generate more power. But in the more advanced levels, we use the entire body.

[Ray Pina]

Taiji will make your WIng Chun awesome. The guys you are playing with now will have no chance chi sauing against you a year later.

Keep your trapping and all that. Taiji will strust give you a stronger base, correct the bad WC alignment with the bending back. The two can work very well together.

The only danger is, if you find a good Taiji teacher you may give up on the WC and focus on Taiji.

[wufupaul]

I think it's a great combination, a combination of two excellent styles. I've studied both of them before, and I found that they complimented each other rather nicely. They're alot more similar than alot of people think; similar body structure, powerful rooted punches, and simple yet effective footwork. Good luck with them.

[vingtsunstudent]

gee, with my lack of knowledge on internal styles i probably should have more to say, at least that's the picture i get from some of you who odviously have no idea about wing chun but yet feel qualified to speek about it.

''correct the bad WC alignment with the bending back. ''
or maybe someone should just correct whoever taught you that as they too odviously don't really know wing chun.
vts

[Zantesuken]

vingtsunstudent you are correct! you don't bend your back in wing chun! hurray for wing chun!

[dezhen2001]

at my school, we do wing chun and taijiquan. Some people study them together, but i think it is better to get a good foundation in one or the other first. I do wing chun, but often watch the taijiquan class. It's very interesting to watch (from my Wing Chun eyes).

Evolution Fist: why would studying taijiquan make you give up wing chun? For example: my Sigong has studied Wing Chun for over 25 years and Taijiquan for over 15 - both from very good teachers. I think it's great that you can learn more than one skill, and constantly refine and develop them both.
I'm only a beginner to WC, but i've never seen anyone lean like you keep mentioning:confused:

david

[Ray Pina]

Sorry, did not mean to insult. One asked, I answered from MY experience.

"I" find, often, when wing chun shifts, that they are too erect, and if you crash their gate they tend to lean back. Leaning back = breaking point at the back = bad.

Just my view. As for who taught me wing chun, you wouldn't know him, but you'd know his sifu, Robert Chu.

My Wing Chun Sifu's gung fu was actually very good, but he wa s abig man, at least 260 lbs, and put the same method into the hands of a 150 lbs, and they would have trouble against a bigger man.

Perhaps not the style, just the way it was taught. I see it taught similairly more times than not though. Perhaps you are not as erect in a straight line -- | -- when receiving force. Perhaps you do not use one hand to pac sau a grown man's full power punching.

Then the fault is whith me. If you do, perhaps the fault is in the way you view your style and I would suggest pushing hands with non wing chun players. Its one thing when people play by the same rules, quite another when the other cheats.

[churn-ging]

Hey evolutionfist.

There was a tai chi guy that I meet at the park where I learn wing chun that I used to touch hands with all the time. He was awsome. I think he was the first one to show me that tai chi just wasn't about doing slow forms and all that stuff. His structure was good and everytime I tried to go in on him, he would just throw me aside like a rag doll!:)

But that was when I had only been learning wing chun for about 9 months to a year. I had just learned to step and generate power with my whole body, then he disappeared!:(

I haven't seen him for almost a year now. I have asked people if they knew where he was, and I have been told that he moved back east where he was from.

[Ray Pina]

My first encounter with internal came from an old student of my sifu. He was a friend of my old teacher, showed up one day and just pretty much shut us down -- easily.

He showed me some shielding, and all I could think was, "Of coarse! It has to be that way."

Well, that started my off on a long search for me teacher.

I like Wing Chun, do not get me wrong. Much better then a lot that's out there. But to be honest, it has become a relic to me, like an old surfboard that I once enjoyed, and learned a lot from.

At times its fun to ride, and now, having upgraded to more refined boards, I have learned to go other places on the wave, and can pick up the old board and now go there too ... but it wasn't possible FOR ME, from that initial first board. Maybe if I stayed with it for 15 years, in perfect fun sized surf.

But, because of some serious waves, seeing a new technology, I had to upgrade. I'm glad I did. I only look back now as a point of reference and to discuss issue here.

I truly believe that the internal is the ultimate way. I also believe that it taking a long time to be useful is a lie. If your teacher focuses on the prinicples, and if you have even a little of a bacjground, the concepts can be incorporated already. Mastering them, the body alignment is a different story, that will take time, and the internal probbaly a life time, but I find it extremely more functional and realistic.

An example (and I use wing chun because that's what's being discussed): The jam kick.

Look at it closely. Knee out, heel in. That is not a strong position -- lack of good leverage. Can one really cancel out good force with this?

Think of a bigger guy. Football player; lineman.

[Ray Pina]

You asked so I'll answer honestly:

Why drive a pinto when soemone is offering the rare opportunity to drive a Porsche?

Can Wing Chun fight at an advanced age? Internal? ... real internal?

I find Wing Chun to be too busy. That is my opinion. My focus is not on Taiji, it just enters the curriculm at times. I'm learning E-Chuan, which is based on my master's inherited Palace system of Ba Gua, as well as Hsing-I and a few other obscure arts.

To each there own. I do think that a lot of people though also claim to be learning Taiji and Ba Gua, but most of the Taiji I have seen seems to be of the YMCA housewife sort. Ba Gua, real Ba Gua, is rare. To have the opportunity I have, to study elsewhere would be an insult, and frankly a waist of time.

If you're learning real Taiji there's no need to be learning anything else. That's how I feel about what I am studying.

I reference it against the Isshin-Ryu, Hung Gar, Wing Chun and S. Mantis I have studied and seen out there. This is just my two cents, and I know people will say, "Well, you didn't learn the real Wing Chun." Fine.

I would guess my source of Wing CHun is most likely more pure than many here. I know my Hung Gar is, as well as S. Mantis.

I simply view the internal, and thankfully my sifu, as the spring, the source.

That's my opinion. And I wish nothing but thebest training to everyone. In the end, its up to each of us to do the best with what we have. Are teachers can only share their knowledge, we have to beat the others ourselves.

[dzu]

Evolutionfist,

I noticed that you mentioned my Sifu, Robert Chu, in your post. Did you learn from one of his students at some point? I ask because the description of your experience is contrary to what we practice.

We focus on structure, alignment, and rooting external force into the ground from day one. Also, we emphasize keeping the spine straight without leaning forwards or backwards. We seek to send force into the ground without sacrificing our structure. Even when shifting, we seek to disrupt our opponent's center of gravity with our own rather than shift out of the way.

My training partner is 50 lbs heavier and 6 inches taller, and yet I have no problem handling his weight or force if aligned properly.

As to your question regarding the kick and whether it is structurally sound, I believe that it's not the kicking leg that is important, but the support leg.

Dzu

[vingtsunstudent]

EvolutionFist
from your profile you are 28, is that correct.
''I'm learning E-Chuan, which is based on my master's inherited Palace system of Ba Gua, as well as Hsing-I and a few other obscure arts. ''
''I reference it against the Isshin-Ryu, Hung Gar, Wing Chun and S. Mantis I have studied and seen out there''
''I would guess my source of Wing CHun is most likely more pure than many here. I know my Hung Gar is, as well as S. Mantis. ''

hell of a lot of styles for a 28 years old.
then with what must odviously be a limited knowledge of each you feel you are really qualified to say this -
''If you're learning real Taiji there's no need to be learning anything else. That's how I feel about what I am studying''
which sort of goes against this-
''I'm learning E-Chuan, which is based on my master's inherited Palace system of Ba Gua, as well as Hsing-I and a few other obscure arts. ''

i'm sorry & don't mean to be overly rude but it is a bit of a personal thing of mine that i get a little upset when people feel the need to talk about wing chun when odviously they have no really don't have a clue what they saying.

''I would guess my source of Wing CHun is most likely more pure than many here.''
again from what little you know of wing chun how would you know if it is more pure than many here.

vts

[Braden]

Imagine you and your friends go out for Mexican food one night. On a dare, you pop a fistfull of jalapenos in your mouth. "Wow that's hot", you exclaim!

The next week, you all meet at this great traditional Chinese place you heard about. While waiting for your meal, you share a laugh about last week's experience. "Man Jalapeno's sure are spicy!" you remark.

An old chinese man has been sitting at the bar next to you this whole time, eating small black beans out of a white porcelain bowl. He turns to you, chuckling a little, and says in broken english, "No, no, jalapeno's are so mild!"

You think he's out of his mind. Doesn't know what he's talking about.

But then again, you've never tried any of those beans he's eating.

[Ray Pina]

DZU: To answer you, I learned from Sifu Michael Manganiello. YOu sifu, Robert Chu, actually lived with him for some time.


VingStun: Yes.

I studies Issin-Ryu from 4years old to 8th grade. Stopped for football 9th grade to freshman year of college, then went back. Ni-dan (second degree black).

Moved to LI from Newark. Studied Hung Gar and Wing Chun with Sifu Mike Manganiello for about 4 years (his hung gar is from Mr. Frank Yee and he studied Wing Chun with Robert Chu as well as a few others but not sure on that.) Then, about half way into that training, I fell into his brother;s S. Mantis gig. His brither, Sifu Mark, trains with a well known S. Mantis instructor, disciple of Gin Foon Mark. They will be parading on the 24th (good time). I was with that S. Mantis crew for two years. Never did as much fighting as during that period.

So, what style would I say I know. I have a very good grasp of Isshin-Ryu. Not only the years, but I would train 5 days a week, 2 classes (regular and then advanced (brown/black) each of those days.

Hung Gar: I only learned Lau Gar, some other form, Gunji Fook Fu and the moon something or other saber. I couldn't do any of those forms, except lau gar if you paid me. The only one I do remeber is Bak Mei's Chik Pu. That's my favorite form of all time. Very simple.

As for S. Mantis. I was never shown a form, and in fact my teacher put his own flavor in there. He was a big man, a lot of element punches. Also showed me a form of iron palm. I was punching hard at that time. Learning a new way now.

As for WC, leaning in and back is no problem, actually good, creates distance and distorts that distance to yor foe.

I wish we could chi sau and I'd show you what I mean. In the end though, who cares? You can say whatever you want baout me, I'm not going to get defensive. I know what I know and more importantly I know what I don't know and need to learn.

If you ware happy with Wing Chun -- AWESOME! Any car with 4 wheels will get you around the block. If you're a good driver -- even further. A great driver, watch out, there's no stopping you. Doesn't mean you couldn't or shouldn't upgrade.

I just get a little tired of hearing all this WC stuff. I mean, come on, created by a nun to defeat everyone? I see it as modified tiger (pac sau) with crane thrown in. Maybe you can say Fuk Sau is snake.

To me, Wing CHun is what it is: A modified system to teach the basic principles very quickly. Of coarse, having learned them you can take them as far as you want. No argument there. One can be very good, I'm not arguing that. Only that one could be BETTER. I believe my Wing Chun has never been better, and I haven't touched it in a few years. So what, I can roll arms, that's wing chun right? I'll pac sau if you want. But I'll be doing it better, generating power from a better place, using better principles. TO ME, that's internal.

[dezhen2001]

Hi Evolution Fist, thanks for your open and honest reply to my question. You (like many others on this forum) seem to have a lot of experience, which is why i was asking you the question.

I am happy that you have found what you are looking for. I have not heard of E-Chuan (is it a romanization of Yi Quan? I have heard of that...It seems very interesting and very practical). I too have tried many different systems before finding my current Sifu. Like you, his skill just blew me away when i saw him - i basically dropped everything i was doing before to follow him :)

My Sigong's teachers are Yip Chun and Chen Xiao Wang respectfully, so i feel very fortunate right now...

I have only been training 18 months, i am just scratching the surface of Wing Chun and Qigong - hopefully Taijiquan in the future.

Anyway, good luck,
david

Ps. Liked your analogy Braden :)

[Ray Pina]

I saw a lot when I was young hitting tournament in the early 80's, my fathert would drive my up and down the coast comoeting and checking out seminars/ I think ithelped me develop a decent eye. I saw alot of good stuff, and most of the garbage I saw was in the way of attitudes with with bad teachers (this was karate mind you and respect weighed very heavily, sportmanship).

As for E-chuan, my master is the greatgrandmaster of this system. He studied with the disciple of the disciple of Ba Gua's founder. Inside the Palace Ba Gua. It's the real Ba Gua, it was used to personally guard the Emperor. Think, if youw were the king, would not only the best of the best guard you?

So he was very lucky there -- and now I consider myself lucky. However, at the same time he was studying with someone I have heard to be quite famous for Hsing-I, though I do not know his full lineage (excuse me here. I've only been with ym master for 13 months now and this is not something I break the flow of class to ask about, sometimes the topic just turns there). So. he had the privelage to study with both of these great men, I believe concurrently, so he could bounce back and forth: "How do you stop this, how do you stop that", ect. ect. Then, at one point, his master's told him to stop adressing them as sifu, that he had reached too high a level (Wow, that must have been heavy). Je also learned a pole method from a master Liu, who was also very well known. I can actually post an article written by Robert Chu stating such, adressing my teacher in that article as the best in Chinatown. So, all these methods combined, plus my teacher, having inherited these methods, has the old book, and is an aeroplane engineer (quite a sharp mind) has formed a new way called E-Chuan. It is absolutely amazing.

ANYONE IN OR EVEN NEAR NYC (5 hours away) SHOULD COME AND CHECK IT OUT, JUST SEE IT. I GUARANTEE! YOU WILL BE SATISFIED.

Now, this mis my teacher. Me, I'm just a kook. But every single time I walk out of that class I take a peace of the puzzle with me. I'm beginning to make out the hazy shape of the method, but its clear reality is still some time away.

Whatever, method, train hard. I didnot want to come off harsh on any style. Hey, we are all martial artists. But, at the same time, I can not deny that a good internal teacher will take one to new bounderies in their fighting, mind, and body perception.

ting ting

my two cents bouncing on a tin floor

[cherrypraxis]

hi EF,

it's your schoolmate, cherry (just in case you didn't recognize me from my handle as this is also the first time i am addressing you in these boards). ;)
i wouldn't call master chan the "greatgrandmaster" of e-chuan. i guess it's a matter of preference. i would just say that he is the founder...

not that i'm contradicting you though...:D

you forgot to mention that master chan is as strong as an ox though he is 60. actually, i thought he was only in his 40s the first time i saw him two and a half weeks ago. wow...i can't believe i've only been there in that short amount of time...

as for this thread...

i am not too familiar with wing chun though i have heard/seen some of its concepts and applications but i can say this about internal arts most particularly ba gua as i have first hand experience on this (though this experience is only a matter of a few measly weeks), you use EVERYTHING. you condition not only your muscles but also your tendons, ligaments, inner muscles and organs. this type of conditioning accounts for the youthful vigor of aging practitioners who seem to retain much of their coordination and strength. as master chan points out every now and then, martial artists no longer fight for their country or for some nationalist agenda as they once did centuries or, at the latest, decades ago. there are guns and bombs for that kind of motive. what's the point of hurting your body for a fight that you may not have to fight? even so, a fight can last minutes or even seconds. but in the days before and after, you must live your life. it wouldn't do to get hurt needlessly. master chan is a firm advocate of safe and effective training. he doesn't like wasting time, energy and effort.

i have heard arguments before that wing chun is only a derivative of the older styles. what is wrong with that? older doesn't mean better. if it does the job, then it works. also, not everyone has the same body structure and personality. whatever works, works and should be something that you figure out for yourself.

:)

[Ray Pina]

Amen to that sister!

I agree with you on allmost everything you said -- and you said it, actually wrote it, so well.

The greatgrandmaster thing is just a title, and is actually given to the founder of a system, which our teacher is. He is the creator of e-chuan.

As for Wing Chun, I do like it, or at least more than some other styles. My problems with it is not its age by far. I'm a bit of a romantic and actually have a weakness of things of old. Hsing-I is actually older.

My problem with Wing Chun is this: It is regarded much too often as this grand ultimate fighting method.

OK. BUT WHY?

How many people hear actualy toting it as such have actually put the gloves on and fought, done the testing to declare it as such. I'm sure some are, but suspect most are not. When I was training WC I did. But when you're fighting WC with WC, well, gues what? WC always wins.

Most never even get to this, and spend most of the time Chi Sauing. Which is good. But fighting, I believe, is soemthing all together different. Players will get cute when you get in on them in Chi Sau, try to pull off a "come from behind" victory. But, if it was a fight, and a clean score was made to the chin, how many would not fold?

So, Wing Chun can be a great style -- any style can be. But one needs to go out and test it against other methods, and not just in chi sau. This isn't a WC comment, rather a general MA comment.

And when a wing chun player of 5 years declares it as the grand ultimate (most likely because of bruce lee or the latest, 10 wing chun killing hands article from some guy that trained with Mr. lee in his yard for 1 year) I know he hasn't gone out and fought Hsing-i. No way!

Because think of what you are learning? How good should you and I be 5 years from now training with master chan? Probbaly about as good (or better) then his one time student who came in and cleared the top fighters from my old school clear out. I was there, felt it first hand. That experince showed me there is nothing soft about the internal ... and set me out looking for him.


Anyway, I guess this was a bit too wordy so I'm skipping out and will hopefully get home in time for Simpons.:)

Peace out Cherry. It's a pleasure having you around.
See you friday.
Ray

[cherrypraxis]

Hi Ray,

hmm...i'll just go to master chan's classes and see what happens. i've been VERY sore for the past three weeks, from neck to toe! as far as being better than his one-time student, i wouldn't know...life happens...hopefully, you and i will stay long enough to learn a thing or two...

to quote prana, "practice, practice, practice."

see ya in class later!

;)

[Ray Pina]

The soreness will go away, and then you'll be sore someplace else when we focus on a new area. That's good. Is your shoulder/back sore? That's a good thing. Working the right places.

As for our level: I'm there for life. I wanted to move to Hawaii in a few years, after writing this book. But I know its not happening now. I can't train with anyone else. And I'm not leaving until I get it all ... or at least as much as I can absorb. My hands are pathetic, my walking/kicking is not existent, I have no internal and haven't the faintest of master's pole or sword.

Nope, I won't be going anywhere any time soon. ****! Pretty discouraging now that I think about it. So much time studying different arts. Wish I would have known sifu when I was a kid. But at least I have a foundation to build on, and when the students ready I guess....

I'm in no rush and I'm still young and dumb enough to go out and mix it up and get banged around.

See you later.

Peace
Ray