taiji - a counter attacking art?

Hi all,

I just read a forum on a Yang family site http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/

There was a discussion there along the lines of 'taiji is dependent on your opponent throwing the first attack' and then an anecdote about a taiji guy sparring his aikido student which involved standing waiting for 5 minutes and then giving up. Sounded like a complete crock to me. I get so frustrated hearing this sort of stuff. If your opponent won't attack then throw a lead to get him to start moving.

imho taiji is a martial art, I train distance sparring and often throw the first strike - I look to get contact if the opponents' arms are in my way, but if there's a clear route to the head/body then I take it. If you wait for the first attack then you are taking a huge risk.

I know the 'move second, arrive first' principle but I don't personally interpret that as 'wait for an attack to start and then hit them', I take it as 'wait for an opportunity before moving in'. That opportunity could be a moment of double weighting on their part or a shuffle step forwards.

Interested to hear your opinions

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

i would first like to say that Aikido is purely defensive and will not initiate attack. in tai chi it is the same way,,,you wait for the attack and counter,,,that is mainly what taichi is. the only counter measures againt taichi is taichi.
try doing the push hands training. ultimately you will fond that taichi movements are an everalsting flow of techniques.
i understand about attempting to draw an attack and there are techniques in taichi that tries to draw the attack,,such as a punch that when blocked immediately turns into a seize and control counter.
many respects,,willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

While there is more in response to an attack than in initiation in Taiji. One can certainly just come straight in with a closed or open hand.

Though from a purely Taiji perspective I might try either luring an attack with a decoy posture or starting a bridge and forcing an action that way.

While I usually like to think that I should only use my art if the other guy attacks first, it has not always been that way. And truth be told, Taiji does have pre-emptive strikes, to be used if you really have no choice. I mean if the guy is not going to back down and you feel the confrontation might become physical in a moment, why not hit him first? The Classics say that if he attacks, hit him first, and this is only a bit more extreme than that statement. If you know you are about to be attacked, do something about it.

If you were driving down the road and a telephone pole started falling across the road, what would you do? Would you just keep going and let it pin you and your car, or let it fall across the road so you crash into it? Or would you swerve off the road perhaps to completely avoid it? Same thing with pre-empting his attack with one of your own. Do you let him strike at you first, or even hit you? Or do you, as Barney Fife used to say, "nip it in the bud"?

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

The most dangerous type of boxer is the good counter puncher. ;)

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

What if you saw someone attacking someone who was helpless..would you initiate the attack then? There's no way it can be purely defensive.

is that you strike whenever you want to - if I know someone is going to hit me I don't wait for him to do it...

What I have found is through training I have been involved in next to no altercations recently. I mean even arguments with another driver or something - I just don't get involved due to disinterest.

The more I train it the less I want to use it...

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"