hey guys,
does anyone know the history of Bagua? From what I understand, it was "founded," by Tung Hai Ch'uan but that there are other branches as well? Any insight? Thanks
Printable View
hey guys,
does anyone know the history of Bagua? From what I understand, it was "founded," by Tung Hai Ch'uan but that there are other branches as well? Any insight? Thanks
sorry, after I posted I did a little more in-depth search on google and then again on amazon. There is a wealth of information out there . . . so please let me clarify:
any true history on non- Tung Hai Ch'aun branches? or do all current Bagua styles come from him?
again, sorry for being so broad at first...
Yes, there are also some non Dong styles, such as Tian style.
However, the most popular and known are Cheng Ting Hua and Yin Fu styles from Dong.
For the most part, everyone accepted that Ba Gua (Dong Hai Chuan) grows and prospers in Beijing.
There are also other styles of Ba Gua from south west China and elsewhere.
--
http://web.syr.edu/~jbegovic/history.html
Here's a website about a researched history of BaGuaZhang.
I find its research very interesting.
I haven't read through the history that this link provided but I find it extremely interesting that it mentions Dong's background in possibly Ba Fan Quan or Ba Zhan Fan which today is generally known as Fanziquan. It is equally interesting that it mentions Dong's affiliation with cult movement. One of the cults at the time is a Bagua Jiao which was the derivity of White Lotus cult. Bagua Jiao has a spin off group which is the infamous Yihequan. I know of a lineage of Fanziquan that actually came from a member of the Yihequan. Personally, Fanziquan a grass root MA that is also noted and absorbed into Ming dynasty military training might be the type of Kung Fu that the White Lotus and/or its derivitives used to train it's militant members.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceWine
I believe that the article is a bit hasty in discarding Dong's cult affiliation and its martial arts influence. I believe this is the reason why the origin of his MA experience has to be obscure in order to protect his teachers and his own safety from possible persecution.
I have seen some linear Bagua Zhang that look not that much different from a lot like Fanziquan and other old style Kung Fu (ie Pigua, Tongbi, Xingyi, etc) for that matter.
Just some thoughts
Mantis108
There is no such thing as one martial art called baguazhang. Dong Hai Chuan took whatever martial arts the student was practicing at the time and helped make them better. So no lineage of 'baguazhang' is the same.
regarding linear bagua, the two main systems are Liu Dekuan's 64 hands and the Houtian bagua in Gao Yisheng's system; Liu's form mixes bagua with the Liuhequan and Yuejia sanshou that he learned, and Gao also studied Xingyi and Dahongquan so it's not unusual that these straight-line methods should share similarities to other northern styles. I think that some lines of Yin style also have straight line sets that are supposedly derived from Luohanquan.
hey guys, I appreciate all the info, expecially the sites with history.
I believe that Mantis 108 has an excellent handle on a murky subject. Many attribute Bagua to Taoist origins. Elements and symbology aside, I believe from my own research into the subject, that the fanzi/baji/pigua/tongbei and linear styles theory along with cult behavior, is as good as any. Now I am going to see if anyone takes this leap with me. If you are familiar with jiao men, I will meet you on that thread to discuss this further.
Yeah I don't really buy the cult thing. There's not much point in worrying about what Dong Hai Chuan really taught to people.
I've found the mentions of taoism and all that to be mainly excuses used by teachers and marketing ploys so they don't have to fight full contact or do much applications work.
For example, why don't you do more partner work?
"Because other people aren't ready. Now, look at this great picture of old teachers."
Why don't you do some applications work?
"Martial arts isn't all about fighting, now let me tell you the story of the old Taoist teachers."
etc. etc. etc. Basically excuses not to practice martial arts.
Kang GeWu had confirmed that bagua palms had nothing to do with Bagua Jiao.
He also had confirmed that Tian Hui (田迴) bagua palms is from yin style bagua palms. Tian Hui was just trying to re-modify bagua palms history & invent his own kind of bagua palms.
Yes, that strikes me as very unlikely. Bagua Jiao was an anti-Qing dynasty sect. Dong Haichuan was teaching in the palace of a Qing dynasty prince. I would think that if he had ties to the sect he would have been a little more low key about it. That makes me think that the connection between Bagua Zhang and Bagua Jiao wouldn't have been obvious back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by jack
Bagua is up there with 6 Harmonies, 7 Starts, 3 Circles, Heaven and Earth and Great Peace as words that pop up in the names of groups, sects and kungfu styles that have nothing to do with eachother.
From what I understand Bagua Jiao was all about Buddhist Messianism, but I've never heard any of that mixed in with Bagua Zhang.