Real Chi Sau??

Does any one have any clips/comments on real chi sau?

By that I mean clips that are of two people doing it that are about the same level and both trying to resist?

Many of the clips that you see on the net make chi sau look really tight and impressive, and I guess that has put it in my mind that when I perform Chi sau it should be looking like it does on the clips.

However, when I do chi sau (granted i haven't been doing it very long) it doesn't look anything like it does on the clips, a lot messier, at lot more resisting, and just a lot more like fighting, I guess.

I guess there are two reasons for this, 1 I am not very good at it, and 2, most of the time the clips are just demonstrations of chi sau drills, or they are of people who are very experienced (i.e. teachers) demostrating on students.

So is real chi sau messy or am I doing something wrong?

Cheers

W

"Performance overrides precision" - Scott Sonnon

Real fights don't look much like demos or Kung Fu movies either. They're often as messy as he11.

I think this is true of most MA's. Jiu-Jitsu, for example, is a lot more interesting to watch, it flows and you generally see much better and more complex technique, when the participants are going at 50-70% rather than all out. If they go all out people just tend to grab a position and hold it.

Even some of the best fighters in Pride, even real showmen like Sakuraba, often end up in ten minute bouts that are almost total tedium for the viewer.

Emin Boztepe, among many others, has some great-looking chi sao clips out there, but mostly he's demoing against people who are not in his class (which is just about everybody). Really good looking chi sao in my experience is better to watch when one person's skill level is significantly higher and the resistance is not all out, though there is some.

Don't compare yourself with others. Just try to improve from one day to the next.

Anerlich makes some good points but hes talking about another level IMO, Hes talking about fighting which is not Chi Sao and full contact Chi Sao is not fighting, its a component of fighting.

The biggest difference i see in many vids ive seen is timing. When both people are resisting in chi sao ( meaning competing because we dont resist we let it go)
it can and often does look messy but this is because people are competing too much, which makes then use to much force and less sticking is the rusult.

Freestyle Chi Sao is a drill, full contact or soft. The purpose is to stick and feel. If you start in Bi-jong and close in, this is getting closer to fighting or sparring.

'Messy' comes from not sticking on either persons part, resisting or not it is still a drill or LOWER form of sparring.
There are those that will disagree with that call, but thats my take.

Im sorry i dont have the equipment for posting Vids..... But i will say this, do not copy, for then you are not using the Kung Fu the Kung Fu is using you !

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Originally Posted by william

Does any one have any clips/comments on real chi sau?

By that I mean clips that are of two people doing it that are about the same level and both trying to resist?

Many of the clips that you see on the net make chi sau look really tight and impressive, and I guess that has put it in my mind that when I perform Chi sau it should be looking like it does on the clips.

However, when I do chi sau (granted i haven't been doing it very long) it doesn't look anything like it does on the clips, a lot messier, at lot more resisting, and just a lot more like fighting, I guess.

I guess there are two reasons for this, 1 I am not very good at it, and 2, most of the time the clips are just demonstrations of chi sau drills, or they are of people who are very experienced (i.e. teachers) demostrating on students.

So is real chi sau messy or am I doing something wrong?

Cheers

W

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I believe that Chi Sau is a game or even a device to perfect my positions that I have learned in the Siu Nim Tao in "real time." You may not be part of the Moy Yat camp, but one idiom that you may like is:
"Beginners must no use strength."

Maybe it should read: "Nobody should use strength." What I mean about this is that what you are trying to achieve just starting out in Chi Sau is astronomical! You have learned all these techniques from the Siu Nim Tao and now you are expect yourself to be there EVERY time with PERFECT technique.

What's the saying - that it takes close to 5000 repetitions for something to be engrained in the brain? Take that number, multiply it by the number of techniques there are in Wing Chun and then multiply that number by all the situations that you might need to use it, including the angles, etc. HUGE right? Almost silly!

I was very frustrated when I first learned Chi Sau with my Sifu. I was just overwhelmed...trying to push and pull and use strength to control my Sifu and seniors who all had higher skill levels than me. It was tough getting a beat down everytime. But it's a drill for me to perfect my skills. You can't get better if you don't Chi Sau with someone better than you (and people from different families/philosophies!),

Hope this helps. Just take your time and you will be amazed at how fast you will progress. Wing Chun is a thinking person's art. It takes a lot of thinking about things to understand the practise.

My 2 cents.

Here's a short clip of my Sifu and a senior in an exchange. Don't know if it's the "Real Chi Sau" that you're looking for, but...

http://www.mountainstorm.ca/video/Ne...%20Sao%207.MOV

Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik

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Originally Posted by william

Does any one have any clips/comments on real chi sau?

By that I mean clips that are of two people doing it that are about the same level and both trying to resist?

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http://www.wing-chun.co.nz/Gallery.htm

Page 7, last two videos on that page might be an example of what you're after.
The clips are a bit old (2 years maybe) and the website doesn't have a very fast link.

Does any one have any clips/comments on real chi sau?

By that I mean clips that are of two people doing it that are about the same level and both trying to resist?

- What is real as opposed to unreal chi sau? Chi sau can look like anything. It can look like a nice drill with perfect positions, nice fluid movements etc. , or it can look like a total mess as even some Judo matches between top Olympic competitior's might look. When Wong Shun Leung and Tsui Shan Ting were here, they did some Chi sau together and I thought it looked like a mess compared to how some of us looked but they were more skillful than us. We actually mentioned that to them. Wong Shun Leung commented that when two soccer teams of equal skill compete, then the results will often look messy. When an instructor beats on a student with lessor skill, then he can often do so with beautiful looking technique. Against a beginner anything works. UFC always looks more messy than a choreographied Kung Fu film. However sometimes you can see beautiful form in real fights such as in Western boxing where both parties might stick to good form. Ray

Many of the clips that you see on the net make chi sau look really tight and impressive, and I guess that has put it in my mind that when I perform Chi sau it should be looking like it does on the clips.

- Those are mostly training clips where good form is emphasized. Often new people doing chi sau consider it as kind of an all out sparring matches. When they can't get their hit in with some finess, they resort to messy pushing, pulling, trying to barge their way in when there is no clear opportunity or opening. Both sides get hit 50% of the time, the body wobbles in all kinds of directions, there is no stance, elbows are flying outward and the center is open or arms constantky cross the center. If you rely on brute strength then inevitably the result will look like a big mess. The aim of chi sau is not to look beautiful but good techniques which don't rely on being stronger than your opponent tend to look better than an all out strength against strength fight. -Ray

However, when I do chi sau (granted i haven't been doing it very long) it doesn't look anything like it does on the clips, a lot messier, at lot more resisting, and just a lot more like fighting, I guess.

- I think in that case it is best to slow down the action and see clearly what you are doing. Stop after a couple of movements. As soon as you realize that it's a big struggle, repeat the attack and defence action and analyze what is going on while searching for a more intelligent solution to the problem. If there isn't a clear way to enter then wait for a more appropriate time to enter. I think if a lot of simple actions are drilled a million times then the whoile result will look a lot better. Fighting at too early a stage before the forms have really sunk in, will always lead to some kind of mess. This is not to say that you can't fight. But to fight with style takes a lot of training. -Ray

I guess there are two reasons for this, 1 I am not very good at it, and 2, most of the time the clips are just demonstrations of chi sau drills, or they are of people who are very experienced (i.e. teachers) demostrating on students.

So is real chi sau messy or am I doing something wrong?

- Everything is real chi sau and it can be messy or not messy depending on the circumstances and purpose of your chi sau. You have to ask why is it messy? For example if someone is bobbing and weaving all over the place then that would look like messy chi sau to me. It might be great for two boxers to do but in my opinion Wing Chun people tend to have a different way of fighting. But if you do find you are doing that, then you have to slow down and search for a better solution. If you get shoved back all the time then what's the reason for that? Why did you have to duck or move your head? If someone grabs your arm then do you really have to pull back hard and have sort of a wrestling match or can you just relax the arm and hit with the other arm? I think the more experience you get, the less of a mess chi sau can be. Then again as I mentioned even with top people who really try to compete, it can still be a mess. The difference is that beginners are messy no matter what the circumstance, while more experienced people at least can look pretty clean against those of lessor skill.

I have seen a lot of chi sau where the guy bobs and weaves all over the place when I think it was not necessary to do so. The same attacks could have been handled with better postures and less movement. The goal of our art is to conserve energy by being economical. Minimal movement leads to less mess. If you push and pull with a lot of strength and have all kinds of wild movement then are you really practicing Wing Chun?

Why not try to copy those people on the video clips you think are good and then slowly integrate bits and pieces of that into the fighting? As a minimum train the Lap sau exercise with a few changes a few thousand times and then at least that technique can look good within the chi sau exercise. -Ray



Cheers

In order to do good Chi Sau it takes time. It is important for you and your training partner to understand that chi sau is to be used as the bridge between the forms (techniques you are learning) and free fighting. By this I mean that it is a training tool not sparring. When both you and your opponent employ this thought process you will start to develop your chi sau (and therefore your wing chun) and benefit from it as it was intended.

I have wrote a small article on chi sau that may be of some use or encouragement to you: Chi Sau Article

Regards,
Splodge

Chia sau is not fighting, alot of times people use strength and/ or poor technique.
It should be continous motion going from one thing to the next on both sides, and sometimes you will get hit or trapped but the idea is about feeling and flowing.
ALot of the clips you see on the web are people trying to show how fast or often they can beat up the person they are practicing on, which is nice but besides the point.

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Originally Posted by NeedsPractice

Chia sau is not fighting, alot of times people use strength and/ or poor technique.
It should be continous motion going from one thing to the next on both sides, and sometimes you will get hit or trapped but the idea is about feeling and flowing.

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NP,
I agree. Chi Sau is a cooperative drill that is used to develop sensitivity and flow. It is not fighting, at least not in it the most basic sense. When you lose the cooperative drill aspect, it becomes a strength contest and as you've pointed out, poor technique follows. In this way, it can actually become counter-productive.

BTW, when I say "cooperative", that does not mean passive. The training partner needs to be actively delivering energy and counters to the attacks.

Also, nice article Spodge.

Here are some clips that I found the other day:

http://www.fongswingchun.com/video.html

This to me is what chi sao should look like. It is very smooth while staying in control throughout the exchange.

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Originally Posted by cmartin

This to me is what chi sao should look like. It is very smooth while staying in control throughout the exchange.

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I'm more partial to this clip. :cool: